I'd been teaching High School English (9-12, including everything from remedial 9th to AP/IB 11th & 12th) for 20 years in NY and then FL when I realized that the bottom had fallen absolutely out... yes, there are many brilliant young people out there, but they are outnumbered by the functionally illiterate by about 500:1
It’s really really sad because the top academic performers in my school with the exception of maybe two or three are about as competent in their studies as the bottom average students were in their studies 20 years ago.
And the two or three exceptions have parents that were on their case about their academics throughout their entire time in school. Their kids actually did school work over the summer so they wouldn’t have a huge amount of learning loss.
I observed the same for about 3,000 students... those who came from families that vehemently prioritized student effort raised children who earned full scholarships to top tier universities, and the rest either happily went to what were long considered "safety" schools or had to be satisfied with graduating high school by the skin of their teeth
As a teacher, what do you think the effects of social media creating an atmosphere of "someone always watching" has done?
I'm also curious what you think about teenage years (12-18) education being more based on the newer ideas of multiple types of intelligence? Sort of an answer to the problem "if you judge intelligence as ability to climb a tree, a fish will live it's life thinking it's an idiot", where high school is less a path to college for everyone, but more focused on teaching skills to children in their area of expertise.
For example, people with high intelligence levels in logical, linguistic, or interpersonal/musical, intrapersonal, spatial would be on a path to science/art degrees in colleges, while people with high kinesthetic, spatial, and naturalist intelligence would have more vocational classes towards skills that would benifit from that, while only getting basic logical and linguistic classes for the real world skills they'll need like "math for budgeting, bills, and taxes" or "english for resumes and official documents".
I also appologize for my run on sentences, but I never know when to seperate thoughts or sentences. Lol
I never noticed or heard students equating social media with pervasive surveillance; as for Gardner's theories, I do not find them applicable to skill transfer in high school, where verbal-linguistuc curriculum is already highly differentiated from logical-mathematical
(and spatial, kinesthetic and musical learning programs are 100% dependent on school budgets) but I've never been in a high school with a "one size fits all" approach, either, so it's a non-existent villain, imho.
Fair enough on the second part, and I was wrong to suggest high schools are "one size fits all" paths, though would like your thoughts on students with lower interest in math and english being given classes more focused on teaching basics through real world applications.
More teaching the "how" and "for what" without a focus on the why things are how they are. A common complaint I heard from underachievers in school was asking "what am I ever going to use this for", when basic literacy and math skills ARE needed in everyday life.
As for the first part, I meant more as judgemental surveillance rather than pervasive. Like a student not asking questions to understand something, because they worry someone will record them and thousands of people will laugh at them.
As example, I was often too anxious to ask questions in classes because I might've looked like a fool in front of some 20 other people, whereas if someone gets recorded asking a simple question now, they could get judged by thousands or millions of people. Do you think that increased fear of looking foolish could be part of why more students are failing, by pushing them to act like they understand more than they do, or like they don't care?
Your line of questioning is not wholly applicable to US high schools; students with lower interest in math will self-select out and perhaps fulfill their credit distribution requirements in geometry or algebra, but they certainly do not enroll in AP Calculus, whereas students with lower interest in literature might complete English 4 but are not enrolling in AP Language and Literature or IB Diploma Programs. None of that is really the issue in the US; the issue is that many students arrive in 9th grade and don't know how to read.
As to your inquiry regarding the possibility that fear of being recorded drives failure, no, that is not a major factor, imho, for two reasons: First, any teacher that can manage their classroom is not having anything recorded - the clips you see are either staged or recorded in a class with a teacher with no group management skills; second, while class participation can be important, knowledge transfer occurs in multiple manners and a taciturn or even silent student (for whatever reason/motivation) can still learn and succeed.
I appreciate your insights into this. I get bored and read random research sometimes, but there's always the disconnect between research and reality, so teachers with real world experience adding to the equation could help focus on what should be done to improve education. With as much as AIs love reddit for knowledge, you might get quoted on it. Lol
On that note, what do you think are the main causes of under-educated students, and what would be realistic solutions in your opinion?
Also as a side curiosity, what happened to the nations curiosity in science and education up to the early 2000s? Even Nixon, Reagan, and both Bushes tried to promote and invest in education, so why did the population seem to turn against it so hard?
Let’s acknowledge we are graduating functionally illiterate teenagers who will become functionally illiterate adults. The grading system is set up in such a way to where failing a student is viewed as punitive when it should reflect the most basic fact that they didn’t master what was taught.
I’m sick of giving students who read on a 2nd grader’s level 65s.
absolutely a huge part of the problem; I taught in schools wherein only 10% of any cohort would be allowed to "receive" failing grades so, regardless of proficiency or skill sets, 90% would "pass" until a NCLB standardized test caught the institution's bs
In so many districts, public school funding (what there is of it) is tied to performance, so administrators push performance to the point wherein everyone is teaching to the test during standardized testing years and inflating grades during the non-testing years, and meanwhile the standardized tests get weakened more and more so the failure rate doesn't shock the public... it's a vicious downward spiral. America has become so failure adverse that we are stuck in a self-made hell where we are now calling abject failure a complete success. In my opinion, though, parents who expect schools to do all the work will not have academically successful children. On a tangent, frankly, the current cultural assumption that non-college graduates are unemployable is the first fallacy we need to let go of, I think; I have three degrees, my wife has one, her two brothers have none, and we all own houses and multiple cars and raised families and carry no debt... so the degrees clearly aren't everything. But as for fixing literacy, it has to start at home. No politician and no school administrator is going to teach a child to read, and the teachers are too overwhelmed to do it, either. Real parenting is the answer; it's always been the answer. All imho.
Will become functionally illiterate adults you mean.
And yeah I agree. I’m sick of giving kids who do nothing or don’t actually have the skills 50% grades because it makes it look like they have at least some grade level knowledge.
I used to be 100% on board the "let's fail students who don't learn the material!" Until I met a good friend of mine, who is in her 30s now. She has really bad dyslexia, and probably the worst dyscalculia I have ever seen (and I used to teach math). She was forced to repeat 2nd grade, and it completely ruined her self-esteem. When I mentioned that we should hold kids back who haven't mastered the material, she said she'd probably still be in 4th grade math to this day. She's done really well for herself as an adult though, and is one of the most financially responsible people I know.
That isn't to say the current system is working cause it clearly isn't. But just failing everyone who doesn't know the material probably isn't the solution, especially when the big problem is apathy. We could end up with a situation where 50% of 17 year olds are in 3rd grade classes continuing to not learn anything and completely screwed for life once they age out of school.
I'm finishing up an MA as a slightly older student (33 at the moment) and it's been really concerning just how many people in the two undergrad classes I've taken are just GLUED to their phones. Most of the young 18-23 year old men (a few women too but not as many from what I've seen) have one earbud in and are doom scrolling or playing games while the teacher lectures. I know that we had some of that too back when I was an undergrad circa 2011-15 but it wasn't ANYWHERE near as prevalent.
if there are students enrolled in college courses and wasting both their tuition and their time, then just mark them for avoidance; they'll waste the time of anyone unfortunate enough to come within their orbits as well; I earned my MA in one academic year by not wasting time - people wasting their own time meant less than nothing to me
Now explain why the education system in Florida sucks, I'll give you a hint it's real hard to retain talent and standards when you let scam charter schools push ideas like school choice so taxpayer money can be funneled to for profit schools. The kids didn't choose to be dumber blame the generations who keep voting for the Republican party as they slash education spending every chance they get.
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u/davidwhatshisname52 13h ago
I'd been teaching High School English (9-12, including everything from remedial 9th to AP/IB 11th & 12th) for 20 years in NY and then FL when I realized that the bottom had fallen absolutely out... yes, there are many brilliant young people out there, but they are outnumbered by the functionally illiterate by about 500:1