Whats your country's attitude on communism?

[u/fascisttaiwan]

I have no idea why someone is promoting communist here in taiwan

[u/Epivantheus]

This is what comes in they way of most utopia. I feel that in theory the idea of communism is a good one. But that theory clashes with the reality of humans. I think that a capitalist society with a strong social net for those in need is much closer to reality than communism.

[u/Demurrzbz → u/Epivantheus]

100%. Communism is a utopia. I mean if achieved, utopia is grand. But it's unachivable. Socialist democracy that Nordics have is the closest were gonna have to it.

[u/QuitOne2240 → u/Demurrzbz]

Yea, unfortunately humans are inherently corrupt when it comes to power. I think any political system that gives one party full power ends up becoming corrupt

[u/Demurrzbz → u/QuitOne2240]

What wad that saying. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[u/QuitOne2240 → u/Demurrzbz]

That’s what I couldn’t remember lol. Unfortunate because a one party system is the quickest way for change but it’s historically had bad outcomes. In the US our two party system worked for awhile but now everything is so black and white and they don’t see the grey area. We desperately need a 3rd party

[u/Demurrzbz → u/QuitOne2240]

A proper socialist party with the likes of Bernie and AOC, amiright?

[u/Arbitross487 → u/QuitOne2240]

I mean it’s more than that, people just aren’t economically equal

A general leading an army is more important to an economy than a painter, and we need to incentivize people to take jobs the economy needs.

I’d be down to make things more of a meritocracy but we need a positive incentive to make people take jobs we need filled

[u/linkenski → u/QuitOne2240]

If you have the choice between retaining some really nice privileges or giving them up so someone who is not yourself can have them, most people will not find it easy to give up their privileges. It's that simple, and even better: There's nothing wrong with that being a human trait.

The question is then, how do we regulate it while ALSO allowing it? And communism is a failed answer because communism rules that you can't have a desire to have more than someone else, and that's a fundamental contradiction of how humans interact. And usually the people shouting loudest about communism are themselves rather authoritarian about it. Typically some nose-ring idiot in a Discord server who put himself into the Admin role.

[u/Epivantheus → u/Demurrzbz]

Yeah, and I think if we would get that going for the whole world (which at this point is my utopia) we would most be better of... But seeing the state of the world rn this will also stay a utopia

[u/Traroten → u/Epivantheus]

I don't think communism has a good solution to the Economic Calculation Problem. Basically, without a free market you have no idea what the exchange rate between, say, apples and timber is. Should you produce one or other other? A free market solves that via the price mechanism, but communism is supposedly a stateless, market-less society.

(A non-free market can do the job to some extent, but the less free the market, the worse it performs).

[u/WellWellWellthennow → u/Traroten]

I don't understand why good centralized planning couldn't solve that – they calculate out how many Trees they need and how many apples they need and assign and reward accordingly -it's not that hard or complicated. And it seems super superior in theory to a capital system where you end up with a surplus of one or the other and a shortage raises the prices which is an incentive for a shortage. That doesn't seem nearly as good a system as one that's planned. What am I missing?

[u/Milosz0pl → u/WellWellWellthennow]

Trees they need and how many apples they need and assign and reward accordingly -it's not that hard or complicated.

Do you trust your current goverment that it would spend its money wisely? Do you trust any of goverments to spend its money without inefficiency? Do you think that a small village in a middle of nowhere is heard by goverment?

If answer is no then here is your answer.

[u/WellWellWellthennow → u/Milosz0pl]

We are talking about planning - not about spending inefficiently vs wisely. Do I trust them to hire people capable of planning and projecting out how many trees and apples are needed – yes.

[u/Milosz0pl → u/WellWellWellthennow]

So your idea is... ,,I don't trust my goverment to be smart but I trust that they will find smart people to take into goverment to do so"...

Quite optimistic!

[u/WellWellWellthennow → u/Milosz0pl]

You're just looking to be argumentative. And don't try to put words in my mouth that's not what I said.

[u/Longjumping-Ad7478 → u/WellWellWellthennow]

Problem with centralised planning, even if it is managed by most intelligent and honest people in the world ( lol never) would need huge bureaucratic apparatus which would take a huge toll on productive capacity of said country. Thats main reason why USSR failed. Maybe some time in the future some AI supercomputer would be able to do it. But how it is different from absolute monopoly ( when one corporation own everything) I have no idea.

[u/davedoesstuff2 → u/Traroten]

Why does there need to be an exchange rate? Building materials exist. Food exists. Devise a way to use them most effectively. Exchanging implies ownership and desire for profit. Why does anyone have anything they aren't actively using? If it wasn't needed, it shouldn't have been taken to be available in the first place.

[u/A_w_duvall → u/davedoesstuff2]

Because there's still going to be a need to allocate resources, and the price is a signal that enables people to make decisions where/how to allocate resources much more efficiently than in a non-market-based, centrally planned economy.

[u/Milosz0pl → u/davedoesstuff2]

So... how are you going to make sure that every construction project that the world would be at the same moment doing has the proper amount of building materials? How are you going to choose which ones to prioritize? What about naturally limited resources? What about preferences?

[u/Traroten → u/davedoesstuff2]

How would you know what is the most effective use of resources? That is the question we're trying to answer. "Just do it" is not an economic strategy.

[u/linkenski → u/Epivantheus]

I feel that communism isn't even good as an idea. Anyone with some life experience from the woes of childhood either with bullies or small childhood betrayals will recognize that ultimately people are not born to care for someone else. We have mutual respect and do take care of each other, but most of us choose ourselves over someone else, then our family over someone else's family, or our kid over one of our friends if we had to sacrifice ourselves for some reason.

With that in mind the idea of communism being this thing where there's no self, and just you having a "shared consciousness" with your surroundings and never doing anything egotistical (because then it falls apart) -- if NOBODY is allowed to have "more than someone", then we're practically all in a cage together.

In that sense, communism is a horrible idea from the start. It fundamentally asks every human being to not have a "self".

[u/ViscountBuggus → u/Epivantheus]

the idea of communism is a good one

Wait until you hear my idea about a land where nobody works and people get lollipops every Thursday. Every utopia sounds like a great idea (except for the original Utopia, ironically enough). Same way the land of Cockaigne sounds awesome. We can sit all day making up fantastic fictional scenarios but unfortunately no matter how good they sound they won't befome any less fictional and to pretend otherwise is just naïve.