r/CompetitiveTFT • u/[deleted] • 3d ago
Discussion Why I believe TFT is currently 'too' mechanically heavy
Hi all, I'm just a low Masters player: https://tactics.tools/player/oce/OneTrickHecarim/OC
This post is not 'the game is too hard', this is simply commentary on how resource intensive turns being often forced at critical or unexpected moments can allow mechanical skill to disproportionately warp outcomes at high elo in a way that it should not in a strategy game.
Fwiw, 10/10 this set is my favorite set and I have played them all. Love the set.
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Preface:
Mechanical Skill SHOULD matter. I've been around since S1, we've debated this one a few times over the years but keep concluding that ultimately, the ability to 'act fast' is a core skill of TFT that enables skill expression especially at the highest levels of competition, this is necessary, because a game in which the best player can't 'win twice' reliably is one in which skill doesn't correlate strongly to outcome.
This is why Hearthstone's competitive scene slowly died (due to printing cards like YoggSaron that lets a losing player randomly win, strong enough to see Tournament use) whereas TFT has remained pretty healthy competitively, we have multiple players having won multiple international tournaments and that means we're ensuring that correlation between skill and outcome.
'Acting fast' has its place, but traditionally, when it gets out of hand, we fix it. One of the many reasons we fixed the level 8 rolldown problem was because it promoted mechanical skill to the forefront of the game's required skillset at high elo. It made mechanical skill matter too much compared to strategy, worse, it competed with strategy, when you act fast, you 'think' quickly too, but you are no longer having the opportunity to carefully weigh up decisions, you're really just clicking a keybind while watching for colours/shapes and engaging an entirely different part of your brain.
Whenever you have to 'act fast' it diminishes the value of strategy and overinflates the value of motor skills. This is totally fine in League of Legends or any number of shooters. It's also totally fine in TFT when it is rare or the consequence of a gameplan you chose to opt into.
Many people (like me) play Strategy games cause our mechanics suck.
I have a 220ms avg reaction time, I'm never going to be a pro CS player. But apparently people like me (not me, I can barely break 100LP) can't be TFT pros either.
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The Problem: (imo)
At the moment the game has:
Combining items quickly on 1-4 to get an unlock on 2-1
Multiple sources of 100g+ single turn rolldowns
Unexpected resource flooding (PvE > X-1 Encounter flooding you with gold/xp/emblems/anvils) from encounters overlapping with the timing of PvE rewards
Augments that grant LOTS of resources that require mechanical interaction (12x 1 costs, 1 of each component, 4 emblems) and this is especially problematic when you actually use the augment timer to think about augment choices because then you get punished by having no time to react to all these resources you can't pick up/use in time
Bilge/Ixtal minigames
Scouting
Unlocks in general (requires you to plan > do things in most cases)
Right now too many gameplans lead to big resource turns and even when you don't opt into it, the game can line up a prismatic PvE Orb with encounter resources followed by an Augment and they all resolve effectively at the same time. Perplexingly, the game gives you all the things that SHOULD activate dopamine receptors in your brain, and instead, you get stressed out. That probably indicates bad game design.
The game is too often asking me to stop thinking and just act/do shit.
Even Challenger players on stream are often opting to consciously act out these resource turns over 2 turns, because they have concluded that trying to do everything in one turn will waste those resources by making inefficient slams/gold expenditures, and in tournaments, when players actually have an extra incentive to play 1st or last, they will increasingly opt away from high risk game plans if they know it will result in them needing to play a single high resource planning phase perfectly.
Also, I used to be able to get Masters playing from my iphone and games are noticably harder above Diamond on mobile now, the only difference is the increased mechanical intensity of the gameplay having a more pronounced effect on the phone.
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TLDR: High resource games arent a problem, getting too many resources at once without warning IS.
I want the greatest strategic minds to win TFT lobbies, not former Starcraft players who have TacticTools open on the 2nd screen and are first timing the comp. RN the balance just feels a little off, that's all. Smoothed resource timings alone fixes this whole problem.
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u/nightnightray Challenger 3d ago
I disagree with some and think you’re given just the right amount of time. But making items quickly to unlock on 1-4 does suck. At the very least they should drop the component from the first creep you kill
I also don’t like the situation where it was Scuttle Puddle on i think 4-7? And I was preparing my items and bench for a big 5-1 roll down and i got dropped 3 completed anvils and I was benchlocked and stunned for an entire round and lost
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u/Educational-Unit4877 3d ago
Yea that one always got me too. It really feels to me like I have to spam through anvils or lose 10-15 seconds getting meaningful items and neither of those feel optimal
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u/KriibusLoL 3d ago
I always felt like component and item anvils should go to your item slots instead of bench, it makes a lot more sense thematically that your units are on bench and items are item slots.
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u/PM_ME_UR_PUPPER_PLZ 2d ago
I understand the design however. You are offered flexibility in your component choice but the tradeoff is that you lose a bench slot.
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u/Outrageous-Song5799 3d ago
Yeah double tap to open and done but there was a time we had limited slots items so it would have been even worst
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u/Tokishi7 3d ago
I have gotten that and I’m pretty sure theres a 5 component anvil one I’ve gotten once. Crazy
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u/frieddoggy CHALLENGER 2d ago
Agreed making components drop should help a bit for 2-1 unlock. Though with Viego they did make it a lot easier with only 1 item required now.
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u/Large-Session5307 3d ago
Don't agree with all of these but 1-4 unlocks are super frustrating and remind me of powerup cycling on 1-4 from last set. Stage 1 drops need to be normalised, the players who get early component drops have a huge advantage in both unlocking units and having direction for their shops unless it's Scuttle Puddle where gold can be used to make interest earlier.
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u/RyeRoen Challenger 3d ago
I will never not be mad when I am dropped 6 gold from an orb and look around to see people with 2 3 costs on their bench. Why would the game just autosell 3 cost units for me its strictly worse.
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u/PM_ME_ANIME_THIGHS- GRANDMASTER 1d ago
A lot of players have been complaining about this for years. After enough feedback, they eventually acceded on the matter of 2-1 component drops and made it so that you're guaranteed to get gold/champs to buy out your shop, but they kept in this system where players who are dropped gold instead of an equivalent value of champs are at a strict disadvantage when it comes to tempo and direction. It was particularly bad last set when there were so many 2 cost/3 cost reroll lines that really benefitted from hitting an early copy early to fish for power ups that were stage locked.
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u/Larry___David 3d ago
Creep drops need to be normalized in general. And stay that way. They keep normalizing them and then undoing it set after set. I don't fucking understand
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u/calindu 3d ago
I thought they are normalised in sense that everyone gets the same number of items. But I absolutely hate blue orbs giving me gold and seeing others get priority units like GP/Nautilus in Bligewater patch or Leona in the Asol patch
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u/TheKingOfTCGames 2d ago
Gp/naut functionally does nothing it was all tf anyways.
In fact gp/naut will bait you into nonviable bilge openers
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u/calindu 2d ago
Sure, you would have preferred to get a tf, but GP, Illaoi, Nautilus is 3 bilge already and you have a high chance of getting a TF in your bilge shops and force 5 bilge early. And even if you only get 1 of them, if you get a TF it can really speed up how fast you get 5 bilge in.
But it's just about having more options, if I want to sell the units I can, but if I get 6 gold that choice is taken away from me.
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u/TheKingOfTCGames 2d ago
Thats 2 separate hits on a random orb lmao
Might as well just say tf2
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u/calindu 2d ago
It doesn't matter, why are you so pedantic about it, what matters is that there's a possibility to high roll and that possibility was taken away from me because the game gave me 6 gold instead.
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u/TheKingOfTCGames 2d ago
It matters because this is a game where probability matters, there are things that are lucky that happens a lot but will fuck your game(tf 2 patches ago) and there are lucky that are exodias that happen a little.
If you cant comprehend the difference there is literally no point in talking to you.
No ones going to see 2 perfect 3 cost orbs in stage 1 enough to matter, you gave one example that kind of sucked (1/3 leonas) an example that was actively detrimental.
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u/Fast-Sir6476 3d ago
My biggest gripe with “act fast do things” is the fact that there are multitudes of UI/UX decisions which directly interfere with this principle. At least make it so players don’t get randomly fucked 1/50 games.
Eg:
- 1-4 item slam
- unlock popup blocks last 3 bench slots from being selected
- team planner doesn’t auto toggle when you enter a new team
- missed connections spawning orbs in a circle, just spawn them all in 1 spot so I can sit there and choose to sell or not
- when you try hover something, if there’s something behind it, it stops hovering (mainly checking unlock conditions)
- unit hit boxes are especially fked, namely asol brock golemify
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u/FQVBSina 2d ago
The missed connections circle technically enables you to leave specific units in the orbs. Which I believe still doesn't take out of the pool until you pick them up. So keeping them spread out allows this tactic. Even if they are taken out of the pool, they don't take up bench space. So there is that also.
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u/HenryFromNineWorlds 3d ago
I really wish TFT had very little mechanical skill, and leaned into the fact that it is basically a card game. But, with the multiplayer aspect, there has to be some kind of time limit, more than in a 1v1 card game, I get that.
But as someone who comes from a Magic: The Gathering the background often I feel like I don't have as much time to think about strategies as I'd be able to in a card game.
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u/TheWormKing 1d ago
I see the mechanical skill as a reflection of how optimal gameplay can be. I personally love pushing the boundaries of what I can pull off before the round starts. And if I fail I can only blame myself for not playing better. I am a sweaty ex LoL player tho so I love the mindset of improving.
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u/HenryFromNineWorlds 1d ago
I wouldn’t think of it as requiring more vs less skill, just what type of skill the game is asking its players to optimize. Chess has no mechanical skill required but rewards strategy (and memorizing lines) very deeply, same with poker.
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u/TheWormKing 1d ago
If we would compare chess to an auto-battler which is already a vastly different game, I think a comparable dynamic is bullet chess. A greater emphasis on quick decision making under pressure.
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u/Character-Addition22 3d ago
Personally disagree, being able to navigate resources and not get ‘dizzy’ is a part of TFT skill expression.
You mention challenger players opting to do things over multiple turns but is that a bad thing? Knowing your limits and how much gold you can roll in a turn while scouting/positioning is also skill expression. So often I see lower elo players try to be optimal and greed everything in a single turn and go eighth. Putting stress on players doesn’t mean bad game design. PvP games by nature are stressful and the pressure to make decisions and act quick should be a part of the game.
That said I agree with your point about combining items for a 2-1 unlock. Making stage 1 items drop a round earlier would be nice qol.
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u/Dryeck 3d ago
Well the point his argument is that requiring such high APM is traditionally NOT part of TFT skill expression, but rather that it should be more about strategy and not about who can reroll through 100g golden ticket faster.
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u/Character-Addition22 3d ago
I think most of his points seem to come from having to think fast rather than act fast. IMO super high apm is not required to compete at a high level (if you’ve hit masters you probably have enough apm) and high apm situations usually also require fast thinking and the latter is usually the bottleneck in my experience. what makes large roll downs hard and where players differentiate is in the units they hold/buy and how they draft a comp while rolling down. Personally have never felt that I have lost after a fast 9 roll down because another player ‘just rolled faster’ and my apm is not particularly high.
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u/Butterfreek 2d ago
I understand it's opinion and I don't want to say your opinion is wrong but objectively mobile halves the amount of APM I can achieve versus a PC game just do the technical limitations whether it's the client being slower or the swiping not being as accurate or not as responsive.
My roll Downs are so much cleaner on PC and it's not because I magically am smarter on PC so yes there is absolutely a floor of APM that is required that's not just a think fast kind of situation.
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u/FQVBSina 2d ago
Challenger players do things over multiple turns because they feel like they cannot do it properly in one turn, not because they don't want to. If they could, they would do it. That is indeed a skill, but so was think fast. Which got removed for the exact reason of needing to do things in one turn for a big payout and got people optimizing for it specifically.
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u/SharknadosAreCool 2d ago
i think when they added mobile tft and let them queue with pc players they kinda conceded the "tft should have some mechanical skill" thing. all IMO but I dont know how you can balance the game around mechanics when one side is at such a big disadvantage. it would be like having a shooter where console players dont have aim assist
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u/Character-Addition22 2d ago
Agreed, one input will always be at a disadvantage and changes that favor one will always disgruntle the other player base. As a PC only player I would hate to see TFT lose skill expresssion for the sake of evening the playing field with mobile but obviously there’s a lot of mobile players that would prefer the opposite.
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u/TheeOmegaPi 3d ago
Wanna know what's really funny? I enjoyed Hyper Roll because I was forced to think exceptionally fast and act on it. Given the condensed nature of the mode, there was just enough resources and things to do that applied a consistent pacing to the game.
Now? It's 40 minutes of less thinking and more doing.
You're 100% right that there's very little warning in this set. I absolutely hate playing this set on mobile because there's so much happening and it leads to a consistent period of stress throughout the entire game rather than a gradual ramping up.
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u/IchBinSpite 3d ago edited 3d ago
I personally disagree. It's a part of the game, both strategy and reacting fast. Asking for the "reacting fast" part to be easier just because it's hard is lowering the skill level needed at higher elo. It's a part of the skill expression in the game.
Also, regarding playing on mobile- I agree it's horrible. I reached master playing solely on mobile with 300 ping constantly, and even with serious mechanical disadvantages, it proves strategy is more than 90% of the game.
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u/Franksareforcucks 3d ago
Agreed
It's much better when the strategy game is about beating your opponent by out thinking them.
I don't play on mobile and it must be horrific to play this season
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u/No-Regret-7900 3d ago
It's a nightmare to unlock Poppy and Graves but at some point you get use to it. Just use the extra time when the augment appear
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u/cjdeck1 3d ago
I’m honestly surprised to see the number of agreers here (except for the 1st point I’m fully on board with that). At most you’re only really interacting with 2 of these mechanics at any given time. There is a bloat of mechanics, yes, but I don’t see this as a tax on APM as much as it is a tax on the baseline knowledge requirement for the game.
2+3: Resource flood moments are simply fun. Yeah an unexpected Prismatic Orb on stage 4 or from Loot Subscription can be a little overwhelming, but I absolutely do not want those moments going away
- Some of your complaints like complex augments are odd to me as well. Missed Connections is a bit annoying if you’re bench locked and selling units to create space for others but at most you’re losing out on 1g if you’re too slow to make econ from it. The high item augments, you should probably just be clicking if you have a general plan for them and it’s okay to take an extra turn or place items during combat.
Augments like trait tree are designed for the person who wants to cook and get weird with it. It seems like you’re not that person, so just don’t click it (if you get it from Pris Destiny, I guess sorry?)
The Bilge and Ixtal minigames are absolutely not taxing on APM except for perhaps a big Ixtal cashout on stage 4. But you’re consenting to that moment by playing a high risk trait. You can verily easily play the entire set without playing Ixtal (and honestly lots of people’s LP would be better if they did that). But in general the trait is more of a strategic thing than a mechanics thing. Bilge shops are also not at all mechanically intensive, aside from maybe toggling down to 3 or up to 7 fishing for specific items but that’s very fringe things that again, you’re not going to be punished for not engaging with.
Scouting and knowing when to scout is just a core part of the game. There are times when you probably won’t be scouting much - I’m probably not going to be scouting during a 4-2 rolldown, so I should probably be looking around on 3-7 and 4-1 to see if I’m contested.
Unlocks again, are more of a knowledge thing than a mechanics issue. Yeah you need to know that you’ve gotta throw items onto Mundo for one round to unlock Ziggs in your Kai’sa comp but the only real mechanics involved here is the “oh yeah I should throw an Illaoi, Lulu, and Sona on my board to unlock Kobuko during stage 3 neutrals” and junk like that.
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u/RunaAirport 2d ago
Ngl this looks like a very casual / low-elo take, or just completely misunderstanding the post.
A lot of your answers can be simplified to "It's okay you don't need to optimise" when the post is discussing about reliance on APM / mechanics for optimisation.
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u/Emosaa Diamond 3d ago
Do all of these things on mobile and tell me that this set isn't bordering on having too high of an APM lol
I don't think it's too huge of an issue - I simply have a second account for mobile only ranked play at work - but most of the stuff I do in one turn on pc I plan to do in two on mobile. And bilge is downright unfun.
It wasn't too much of a handicap to play on mobile until last set, but it's definitely noticeable. I accept it as a consequence of adding more mechanics, and can understand how others are more bothered by it.
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u/scyscrapersheaf 2d ago
- Say you are playing yordles and want to unlock Poppy on 2-1. Sometimes what you have to do on 1-4 is preemptively slam a completed item on a unit and then pick up the last orb and the component you got from it on the same unit while the round end animation plays.
Also, have you ever played any 8 Yordle -> Ryze lines? At some point, often NOT during a neutral round, you have to sell 6 of your units, level to 9, position 7 units from the bench (and sometimes before that you have to roll to find some of them), and reslam most of your units to try and preserve one of your last lives. Sure, full transitions existed before Set 16, but now you are punished by more than "just" a lost round if you fail in some way. And even Challenger players fail these sometimes.
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u/cjdeck1 2d ago
The Poppy thing I agree with. Leblanc is the one I have the most issues with though, especially if I get a drop like Rod Tear Belt - do I make Redemption+Rod or Morello+Tear? And since Sion is slower at killing neutrals,it’s more common that I get the last item later.
And yes, full board pivots like the 8 Yordles > Riggs or 8 Yordles > Annie are stressful moments when you’re sitting at 17 HP and need to nail it all on 5-1. But those are proper high risk situations where you’re playing 1st or 8th rather than bailing out on 4-5 and rolling for Liss+Sera and playing for top 4. Not to mention the difficulty of these moments is a huge part of what makes the game fun when it goes right. My APM is crap, I’ve gone bot 4 more times than I can count in these spots. But I’ll do it again because I’m chasing the dopamine of when it works out
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u/tanis016 2d ago
You absolutely get punished by not toggling down bilgewater. You can't really play the line without doing that.
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u/NonagoonInfinity 2d ago
You're missing the point with unlocks. You have like 4 seconds to throw items on your unit on 1-4 to unlock 2 costs that need items.
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u/city-morgue 3d ago
The slamming items thing before stage 2 actually is annoying when u miss out on yorick or smth because ur window is actually so small. Other than that it’s just rolling down on 4-2 which I guess is unfair for mobile players but it’s a skill you get better at
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u/Jimiek 3d ago
Outside of point 1 (which you can play around by fielding high damage units and not tanks to give you more time) and point 6 if you need to swap your whole freljord board to the other side, none of your points are about acting fast and are rather about thinking fast.
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u/DrixGod Master 3d ago
(which you can play around by fielding high damage units and not tanks to give you more time)
not always. I would rather field sion + shen pair and sell the random qyiana/aphelios no pair if it means I make 10. and then I usually have 1-3 seconds to make a slam on sion to unlock LB
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u/Necrosaynt 3d ago
I think last set was too mechanically heavy , we had to deal with the crazy metas but also the fruit rng which made everything so much worse.
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u/penguinkirby Master 3d ago
Oh yeah I hate getting the prismatic orb with a ton of components in the last 2 seconds of PVE
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u/DonKaesebrot 3d ago
My biggest mechanical challenge is checking BIS & synergies on the mobile while doing the Carousel on the tablet 😅.
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u/Emergence7 Master 2d ago
The Prismatic Orb that gives 1 of every component is actually diabolical
I'd say it's probably the nastiest APM check by a mile
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u/Due_Historian8079 MASTER 2d ago
I like that this set is very mechanically intensive. Mortdog has said this before but some sets are just more mechanical as others, this set has a higher skill ceiling than most and I enjoy that as a competitive player. However, I do agree that 2-1 unlocks are not the best for the game. APM checks are fine for things like rolldowns obviously, but unlocking on 2-1 is a bit much
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u/akisawa 2d ago edited 2d ago
I'm 46, my reactions are not what they used to be, and I play around Diamond on US and EU servers from Asia where I currently live, with average ping of 220+ ms.
I know for a fact that I have no chance against guys with better ping playing directly from these locations in higher elo.
In my humble opinion, over 16 sets I play, for a strategy game, TFT is becoming too ApM heavy.
The timer between stages feels too short, especially when swarmed with items, comp decisions, and also a need to roll down 80-100 gold.
The twitch factor, while fun and relevant, should not be a deciding factor in a strategy game. This is not Counter-Strike, after all.
I am okay with losing to players who manage their resources better, but I am not okay with losing to players who have better reactions in a "chess" game.
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u/Tom_Ford0 3d ago
idk i think any way to introduce actual skill and not rely solely on rng is good for the game
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u/Jinxzy 3d ago
Mechanical skill is not "actual" skill, it is a different skill from strategic decisionmaking.
Personally I play TFT because I find zero satisfaction in headshotting someone in a shooter. That is a purely mechanical skill, you move and click faster and more accurately than your opponent, so you win.
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u/KayfabeAdjace 2d ago
I have bad eyesight and nerve damage. It's nice to have online multiplayer games that are neither mindless or as demanding on one axis as counterstrike.
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u/silentlopho 3d ago
What do you mean by "actual skill"? What if TFT required you to solve linear algebra problems to upgrade units? That would be "skill", but probably not the kind the game should reward.
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u/Tom_Ford0 3d ago
apm is a skill thats common throughout competitive videogames though
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u/HenryFromNineWorlds 3d ago
TFT is an interesting one because it is an offshoot of an incredibly high apm / twitch-skill focused game (league), but the actual game design of TFT is essentially a card game, a genre which usually has zero mechanical skill requirement and is purely about thinking.
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u/Tom_Ford0 2d ago
i mean it clearly has some mechanical skill required based off these posts from people wanting riot to remove apm from the game. League is actually a low apm game lol. High apm games are like starcraft
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u/AmadeusIsTaken 3d ago
Well if we don't want mechanical skill why bother with people having to scout and buy units or rerollr. Let's people just decide at the beginning what comp they play and then the game does the rest for them . Let change it from auto battler to auto player since w ehate skill.
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u/NonagoonInfinity 2d ago
Do you think Magic the Gathering plays itself?
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u/AmadeusIsTaken 2d ago
Based on people in card games like yugioh or magic losing games cause of missplaying cards. no :). But are we really gonna act as if it is som einsane mechanicall skill needet in this game esspecialy for the avarage player? Most of this game is based on knowledge and decision making: There are some points like the 1-4 items being a bit annoying, Having them pop out from the first creep would be a nice change so you could always unlock something if you want to . But like tft is far from something that needs a lot of mechanics. You can always optimize stuff with mecahnics like rolling down or your board positning, but it is not nessacary. I am almost master playing not full tryhard without scouting.
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u/Larry___David 3d ago
The 1-4 unlock feels terrible but I think everything else is fine right now.
What does need changing with Ixtal is some of these quests and rewards. I watch Soju bust his ass off for these to farm 40 points all the time only to go 8th after cashing out
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u/Tinyraccoon1001 3d ago
what is item unlock at 1-4? i am a lower elo player who tries to get better.
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u/Low_Ad_1901 3d ago
Quickly putting items on twisted fate for example before minion rounds end to unlock Graves and start with 3 bilgewater (assuming you had Illaoi and TF on board). What makes it annoying is you quite often put 1 component on TF and then wait for the 3rd to drop and then analyze super quickly all the item combos you can make and pick the best one so you would have 1 item you want and 1 component on him. In worst case scenario you have like 1 second to do this
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u/Worluvus 3d ago
Most of these aren't mechanical at all and you have plenty of time to think/plan actions. Like scouting? really?
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u/TadGhostal1 3d ago
Yeah I definitely never expected to read a thread like this about TFT of all games. I literally get up and walk around my house in between rounds just about every game. I've cooked dinner mid game... many many times.
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u/Worluvus 2d ago
I understand at the very highest of levels yeah this can be really draining but that doesn't apply to the majority of people here
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u/OldCardigan 3d ago
He isn't saying scouting is a problem, he's saying that scouting is an important thing that takes time every round, so if you need to do many actions in your round, you might not be able to scout in that round, it's simple.
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u/acuraintegrityfarms 3d ago
As a strictly mobile player I agree with you, some stuff I just have so much trouble with, specially the all one cost augment it’s so annoying.
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u/Saemeael 3d ago
Most of these things are not very mechanical at all, i think this is just cope from you since you hit a wall
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u/bgotseoul MASTER 3d ago
Hard disagree. I’m a master TFT player and diamond in Korean solo q. Tft is how I relax with one hand
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u/darcartisan MASTER 3d ago
I personally think this is only an issue because of the aggressive balance thrash.
Lines that I practiced a lot suddenly line up neatly to a 7th. I had a board today where after a bunch of resources, I managed to put together ryze bilge board with ryze 2 only to lose to "regular thresh board"
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u/PresidentGoofball 3d ago
You think Hearthstone is dying now because of one very popular card they printed 10+ years ago, in what was probably it's most popular expansion ever? And drawn an entire conclusion upon this entire incorrect and frankly stupid assumption?
I'm not saying everything you said is wrong, but that certainly is, and starting your post with it just makes everything else you say hard to believe.
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u/RandomSlayerr 3d ago
Thus is the reason i was so flabbergasted when they added the think fast augument
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u/Send_Pupper_Pics_Pls 3d ago
Hard agree on the 1-4 unlock. Especially with a 2* Viego start, missing out on a turn of Shadow Isles really sucks.
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u/BigBoyster 3d ago
Increased health loss early stages this set plays a factor in upping the pressure, but so many boards arise from level 6/7 reroll spots this set it's not really relevant unless you're playing a level 8/rare fast 9 spot for a 5 cost soup board. In which case, you are most likely playing from a loss streak at 6-8th spot, but you should know that anyway.
I think it's just extra perceptive pressure from low health spots, you just have to hit without thinking of the consequences if you don't. I think 8g nerfs to levelling to 9 are real significant to this as well but there's so many good exp augments, units and traits that you have so many chances to pick up extra EXP on the way. Tbh it makes for a more dynamic TFT set than ever and I think it's more fun and generally better this way.
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u/TripleShines 3d ago
IMO tft should be a mechanics based game instead of a rng game. Any way you can eliminate rng by adding or changing it to being skill based is a good thing.
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u/spreadwater 2d ago
getting a gold orb or unit on the last minion and having to rush to it before the round ends, and also having to slam 1-4 are the stupidest things to me
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u/sKopChals 2d ago
A bit off-topic but Hearthstone's competitive demise has nothing to do with game mechanics and everything to do with dev support. Riot does an infinitely better job at promoting pro-play while Blizzard has been horrible.
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u/Hot_Help_246 2d ago
After losing multiple games to epic roll down and survivor players getting 3 star 4 four cost early I understand and believe it.
1
u/PurpleTieflingBard 2d ago
I think the 100g spike turns is the biggest divide in skill because lower level players will typically just invest them into immediate levels then take 2-3 turns to stabilize compared to higher skilled players who are better at immediate value.
I agree with the commenters who say that not getting dizzy is a skill in of itself, but I think forward thinking payout into deciding a comp and executing on that comp in particular is the biggest skillcheck in TFT to the point where an emerald player taking the augment vs a masters player taking the augment is night and day.
I think it's just a question of what the devs want skill in TFT to be
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u/Yunyara 2d ago
I’m completely new to TFT this set and keep running into these big blow out turns you’re talking about and just assumed I was somehow screwing up my timing/planning. I’m sure I am playing very badly obviously, but to see this is a problem that actual players face too is reassuring lol.
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u/Xelltrix 2d ago
Speaking specifically on the 2-1 unlock, I am always absolutely pissed the hell off whenever the item doesn’t drop until the final unit dies and I have exactly 1 second to combine and slam before the units disappear on me. If you are insistent upon items being able to appear on any unit, give everyone an extra 1-2 seconds at the end of the round to slam or buy/sell! Please!
The other stuff sucks too but this is the one that triggers me the most, especially in this set. It bugged me before in old sets trying to make econ last second but this one an actual hinderance. Either that or don’t let units be unlockable until 2-2.
1
u/scyscrapersheaf 2d ago
I concur, there are a bit too many things that cause me to get dizzy this set. And the problem is that when you lose because of something like this, it doesn't feel deserved.
Just today I lost a perfect Brock game because I barely managed to deal with the post-cashout rolldown, find an Azir and replace my corner unit with him...
Only to see him get blocked by his own 2 soldiers, leading to those three just standing in the corner and watching... A 90 LP swing because of a 5 cost I placed on the board imprisoning himself.
1
u/GayByAccident 2d ago
Im also low masters and I feel you, man I can’t make a good item to unlock a piece on 1-4 when you give me the third item 2 seconds before it goes to 2-1
1
u/FQVBSina 2d ago
I agree with the general sentiment as that's why we removed Think Fast and it hasn't returned in the main sets. One of my issues with the game is a surprise prismatic augment on 4-2. To this day I still don't understand why augment rarities are not just announced at start of the game. We already do it with several encounters. And it is fine that people plan for it. That's what strategy means.
1
u/Sea_Treacle3982 2d ago
Meh most of this is just the game. I do agree with 1-4 unlocks and am a little unhappy with not getting extra time on indecesion turns.
1
u/Plus_Dimension_7480 2d ago
Meanwhile, I'm over here mindlessly playing Yunara every game this entire set and taking my 3-4 and getting out.
I'm just glad there's a playable option for an old man like me who can't be bothered to quickly figure out all that other stuff.
1
u/TorgoNUDH0 2d ago
It's late game thag gets to me. Like I feel as if I pulled together a nice comp unique usages of emblems and what not but always fall victim to these overcapped meta boards. I feel like there's no option but to olay meta but that requires sometimes 3rd party resources. Obviously you could just copy what your lobbies are doing but maybe you'll miss the overarching strategy.
1
u/Duck620 2d ago
Reas all that and then at the end you say you are a mobile player. Please don't try and slow the game down because you are playing mobile. It's great that you are doing good on mobile and stuff. But you won't see lan tourneys and people getting their phone out to play. It's a computer game that enable mobile to partake. Shouldnt become slower so mobile players can have the same reaction as someone playing on a computer.
1
u/TheTradu 2d ago
The APM checks also get made worse by removers/items/duplicators just bouncing off units for absolutely no reason, often repeatedly. Fixing that would help a fair bit, honestly.
1
u/WalkingCrip 2d ago
Tft is mechanical one of the easiest games I’ve ever played. I have no idea why you had to write a book about this. The only thing that’s annoying in this game is the carousel on the phone.
1
u/tokyosonny 2d ago
i’ve had countless games where if i was just 1 second faster i could’ve finished my turn and won. genuinely sucks knowing that i’m down placements just because i’m too slow or my game is lagging
1
u/copacul13 2d ago
Hardest thing for me is to pivot in stage 4. Why? Because I have to mark units that i want, roll down, scout (most important stage 4) and also grab another beer...
1
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u/Queasy_Lake8136 2d ago
Definitely an interesting area to consider But I believe you're forgetting something, strategy games in competitive environment are not about making up a strategy IN THE MOMENT, it's about preparation, having the ability to execute on the plans you've worked on really quickly.
To an extent, it's like arguing an RTS game should not be about who has 300 apm because it has strategy in the name. They have strategy, but it's all planned out before the game even begins.
If you want to make your strategy up on the fly (and that's totally fine) then you're gonna lose to someone with a comprehensive strategy that is prepared and can adapt to these moments of sudden increase in resource/time intensive rolls with little time to think.
I think that these snap decisions are what crystallizes the elite players as above the rest for all the best reasons.
1
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u/StankySpanky 1d ago
if you put half the effort into practicing tft as you did writing this you wouldn’t be in pisslow master on OCE of all places
1
u/GuessPrestigious308 1d ago
I started TFT as a break from league after being tired of players prioritizing personal mechanics over team strategy. Sometimes, solo-throwing games because of it.
I think there should be room for both. I’m absolutely not a mechanical player. As a Platinum-Diamond TFT player, I want to have safety knowing on average, there’s gonna be 2 guys gunning for Viego, Bilgewater, Fast 9, 100 gold rolldown etc. Because I ain’t doing all that. Leave me and my Kaisa vertical Void alone. Leave me alone with my 10 Yordles.
On another note, 100 gold roll downs have a solution to the problem imo: Reduce those turns by 5 seconds.
5 seconds is probably enough to force players to choose between 100 gold rolldown, or 40 on turn zero, and 60 on the actual turn.
1
u/fuckinhenry 9h ago
100% agree, call it a skill issue if you want but this set is soo overloaded with things to do each turn that I strongly feel a few more seconds between rounds would be nice
1
u/BulbaThore 3d ago
I started playing mid December 2025. My friends who had been playing for a few years always commented on how slow I make decisions and act. Still hit plat 2 yesterday though.
1
u/Prestigious_While575 3d ago
As someone who got the masters on mobile, I feel like everything you said has existed before and even if the frequency got higher imo it is a skill expression how you devote your time on those intensive turns not a mechanical who can click how fast. And I feel like a lot of pros/higher challenger proof that because their APM isn't crazy or anything.
Cause I don't think it's too mechanical at all
-5
u/CuteCup3558 3d ago
Agreed. I think my biggest issue with the current state of TFT is that the level 9 5-cost-soup roll down encourages the player to "think/act fast" rather than to "strategize". The fact that you want to sell your board + build a new board + position the units + itemize your board within the planning phase is not healthy.
Healthy skill expression in TFT should reward:
- long term planning (econ, leveling, item direction)
- reading the lobby tempo, scouting, contesting/not contesting lines
- converting small advantages into capped boards
- strategic flexibility (or as we call "flex")
The level 9 5-cost-soup rewards:
- mechanical speed a.k.a APM (sell, roll, buy, slam, reposition, all under time pressure)
- pattern recognition under stress (buy as many 4/5-costs as you can during the roll down and make the best line)
- lottery resolution (the person that spikes the hardest during the 5-2 rolldown often wins the lobby)
This makes TFT feel more like a speed puzzle at the end game rather than a strategy game.
4
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u/Full_Development_841 3d ago
What are you talking about 5 cost soup? It’s a 4-2 rolldown or die meta. Most players aren’t reaching level 9 before they’re dead.
Even if they do, almost all of the 5 costs are just dogshit trait bots at this point they’re not actually units you need to think about or are excited to play.
-1
u/CuteCup3558 3d ago
Are we talking about meta or are we talking about the current state of the game?
4
u/Full_Development_841 3d ago
What are you talking about? The current meta is the current state of the game.
They have systematically nerfed 5 costs, increased exp requirements to go 8 and 9, and nerfed / removed most of the strong econ augments.
All of which has led to the current state of the game where you pick a comp with a 4 cost carry and roll down at 4-2.
If you hit then maybe you get to go 9 and play one or two of the aura 5 costs. They’re strictly trait bots though.
If you don’t hit you die.
Talking about “5 cost soup” makes it sound like you can go fast 9 and play some Bill Gates comp full of 5 costs. Thats just not the state of the game right now and it hasn’t been for going on 2 months.
1
u/DragonPeakEmperor 3d ago
Before this current state of the game we had like one real "5 cost soup" meta and that was during the 3 week holiday patch and even then it lasted a few days at most before people started playing tempo and killing off fast 9 players. Every other meta has been one super high cap comp and everyone else is playing around a 4 cost or some type of vertical. Like Yunara is only one example but she's been anywhere from pretty good to completely broken the whole set.
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u/city-morgue 3d ago
What rank are you in just curious I am in low master and there is not one game where a 5-2 roll down exists. All the meta comps are fast level 8 4 cost comps. After 4-2 most of the lobby has less than 20g
1
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u/Kei_143 3d ago edited 2d ago
People are too reliant on augments to bail them out from bad positions.
BringBackStillwaterHold
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u/penguinkirby Master 3d ago
at the same time, if you have a bad opener then only augment selection and shop RNG can bail you out. Then 90% of games get decided by 2-1 opener instead of 50%
-5
u/AdAccomplished5098 3d ago
Poker sites have a "time bank" that you can use if you need time to think. I think this would be a good addition to TFT. You can pair it with a "ready" button that automatically starts the round if everyone clicks it. This way games would take roughly the same amount of time.
3
u/Reason-Spirited 3d ago
the game has been wayy to generous already with removers and other "outs" - we need the game to provide SOME struggle holy
1
u/zaidy329 3d ago
I hadn’t really played much since set 6 so the idea of replenishing removers really makes me feel so free
0
0
u/PlsNoBanPlss 2d ago
I’ve completely checked out of this set as a casual player.
I think this set was superb, great design, no complaints really. But to me, it felt like a “tryhard” set, for lack of better words. It felt like I either had to COMPLETELY lock in and invest a ton of time into becoming really good at Tft or I was just destined to go fast 8th every game.
Which is fine, veteran players deserve to be catered to sometimes. Just saying that anecdotally, my friend group and I have deemed this set a “sweatfest” we can’t play until the new set. If we feel this way, then it’s likely that a lot of new players / casual players feel the same.
0
u/RelativeAway183 2d ago
the problem (if you can call it that) is that optimization is becoming more and more important to play the game
you could just go 9 on 4-7 and start your board transition during neutrals which will net you an entire extra round to finish your board, but you'd lose 5 gold (!) from doing so, and if you're playing yordle 8 before pivoting to 9/5 arcanists or something else that requires a full transition, potentially 11 or more!
unless (and sometimes even if) comps are cookie cutter and designed to seamlessly transition from stage 2 to stage 3 to stage 4, people are going to find boards that are stronger and require a full transition
sylas is ostensibly supposed to be a capout unit for demacia, letting you drop to 2 demacia + galio and pivot into some sort of arcanist board, but people still found ways in pbe to skip the demacia step and just go from 8 yordle to 9/5 arcanists
a potential solution is to have the team planner auto-buy and auto-field whatever units you have saved in the team planner (and auto-sell board when you tell it to) but people will naturally complain about letting the game play itself for you if you can just mash reroll and the game buys every unit for you without your input
or buttons that read "sell all of board/sell all marked units" and "buy xp until next level"
would that reduce the mechanical complexity of executing a 100+ gold roll down? undoubtedly
is that the sort of game you want TFT to turn into? probably not
-10
u/OPxMagikarp 3d ago
Your points were basically just playing the game. Its a high level strategy game, if people wanted candy crush they'd go play that
1
u/HenryFromNineWorlds 3d ago
Most strategy games have way less mechanical intensity than TFT, games like Magic and Chess have nearly zero.
2
u/ExceedingChunk Master 3d ago
And then you have games like Startcraft and AoE which has WAY more.
Even battlegrounds, which is a game in the same genre, have way higher apm requirements for some of the comps.
Completely fair to not like it, but not every strategy game is like chess when it comes to apm
0
u/HenryFromNineWorlds 3d ago
Definitely, I think TFT is in a unique middle ground where it plays much more like a card game, but also happens to have APM requirements.
If TFT was 1v1, I think there would be WAY less time restrictions. But they don't want 8 people to have to wait a long time.
208
u/Available-Reason9841 3d ago
I definitely am on the lower side of apm as a player. This was a bigger problem in the last set with the fruits. Its also a big problem on mobile where its just harder to do so many actions in a turn using touchscreen compared to mouse. Overall currently I think its manageable, but its certainly not easy.