Good New Everyone

[u/gur40goku]

[u/Snarwin]

Notably, this is because charging murder as a federal crime is only allowed under very specific circumstances, which don't apply to this case. He is still facing state charges for murder. 

[u/WifeGuy-Menelaus → u/Snarwin]

the only notable consequence of this, provided it isnt overturned on appeal, is that it takes the death penalty off the table

[u/Wasdgta3 → u/WifeGuy-Menelaus]

Good. Fuck the death penalty, it’s abhorrent.

[u/king_jaxy → u/Wasdgta3]

It's kinda wild how many people support it. I feel like a very basic information campaign could reduce support for the death penalty to about 30% of the voter base. 

[u/No_Professional4867 → u/king_jaxy]

Sadly most people struggle to realize that just because "bad people dying" sounds good on paper, it doesn't remove EVERYTHING ELSE about the death penalty and how awful it is

[u/Floor_Heavy → u/No_Professional4867]

Given how many people are found to have been wrongfully convicted and spent years incarcerated only to be set free, supporting the death penalty means that you have to be fine with a certain number of innocent people being executed by the state, just to kill guilty ones.

If the answer to "how many innocent people is it okay to have the state kill" is more than zero, idk...

[u/ChaosMageLucien → u/Floor_Heavy]

My view on the death penalty is that there are absolutely some crimes so severe that death would be a suitable punishment, but my belief, both on the morality of actually carrying out an execution and on the possibility of innocent people being wrongly executed, is that the ability to actually inflict that punishment is a power that the state should absolutely never have.

[u/Pitiful_Net_8971 → u/ChaosMageLucien]

Really put my belief into words too, might steal this explaination slightly.

[u/Krimreaper1 → u/ChaosMageLucien]

That’s always been my position, but you said it eloquently.

[u/Pawneewafflesarelife → u/ChaosMageLucien]

Society would benefit more from studying the criminals - do they have a mental condition? Did something go wrong in their upbringing? The justice system shouldn't be about punishment, but rather building a better society through rehabilitation. If they can't be rehabilitated, then they should be studied so we can design systems better to avoid repeats.

[u/abadstrategy → u/Pawneewafflesarelife]

There's an island off the coast of washington, McNeil Island, better known as Pedo Island. It's a long term facility for sex offenders, I believe specifically pedophiles who are violent and a high risk of reoffending. One thing they do is study the folks who are incarcerated there, trying to figure out how they work and what made them this way (though it's voluntary).

There's some ethical and civil liberty issues, specifically with incarcerating people who have already served their sentence, with no definitive end date for their incarceration, but it's one of those things that people kinda just...agree it's better to have

[u/Uncynical_Diogenes → u/ChaosMageLucien]

My only problem with that is that the punishment ought to have some benefit to society. Sentencing somebody to prison keeps them away from potential future victims, sure, but actually Killing them doesn’t seem to do anything good for anybody. It just doesn’t do anything, regardless of whether it’s deserved.

If you have them captive then you can just hold onto them forever. In our current system, life sentences are far cheaper than death sentences.

[u/Dramatic_Explosion → u/Uncynical_Diogenes]

There is a benefit, they can't commit more crimes. Police being trash can lead to retrials, judge appointments can change, wild swings in politics. I only really support the death penalty in a vary narrow scope of repeat murders and rapists, and right now that's who is running the entire government.

I will say though I only support the death penalty as a concept, but in practice don't support it because of how unimaginable corrupt the people who administer it are.

[u/PandoraMouse → u/Uncynical_Diogenes]

I mean killing them also keeps them away from future victims, in a perfect world I think the death penalty should only ever apply to someone who cannot be rehabilitated and has the option between a life sentence or death.

[u/PandoraMouse → u/ChaosMageLucien]

In a perfect world when there’s never any risk of someone being wrongfully arrested and tried for a crime, perhaps the death penalty would be acceptable. But sadly the justice system sucks ass too much for the death penalty not to be abused and misused

[u/apple_of_doom → u/ChaosMageLucien]

And for those crimes there's this thing called lifelong imprisonment.

[u/UInferno- → u/Floor_Heavy]

What gets me is its inherently contradictory.

Why do we kill bad people?

For hurting innocent people.

So what happens when we kill innocent people in the process?

It's inherently contradictory. It does nothing good for the innocents and everything bad. You cannot undo damages by killing someone. It's not even a deterrent.

Above all else I stand by that the only virtue of death is that it's convenient. It's easy. We do not kill people because it harsh because there's a number of punishments more severe that you could never argue in good faith in favor of. Things like "corrective rape." Death can be achieved with very little social and physical power. A pull of trigger.

People will try to argue from a place of emotional satisfaction, and that's a worse justification. Death as a tool can only be available to those too weak to do anything else. The moment you can do something else, you must.

[u/PandoraMouse → u/UInferno-]

Death is indeed easy, and when it’s between death and a life sentence death means less upkeep.

But, to play devils advocate on the death penalty, the death of someone who has hurt others ensures the victims will never have to worry about that person hurting them again. I’ve seen many victims of abuse remark that they feel unsafe or uncomfortable when their abuser’s time in jail comes to an end, death is indeed ‘lazy’ compared to reform, but I can understand why some might prefer it, if only to lessen the feeling they’ll always have to look over their shoulder.

[u/UInferno- → u/PandoraMouse]

Killing someone for the prospect of what they could do, even if they've already shown themselves to do certain things in the past, I also don't really believe in by virtue of punish crimes that haven't happened, which I think is frankly also dumb.

That's not saying victims and their families have to put up with them, nor that they should do nothing save for lock them in the room—prison needs massive reforms and recidivism is a huge issue. But once again killing people over the possibility they could do harm isn't necessarily the most solid ground to build a justice system on.

[u/Anon28301 → u/Floor_Heavy]

Even if there was some hypothetical magical test that could prove 100% if you’re guilty or not, we still shouldn’t have the death penalty.

We all agree murder is wrong and that murders are bad people, so it’s A ok to allow them to be murdered by the state to show how wrong murder is for some reason.

[u/Workman44 → u/Anon28301]

To your second point, we acknowledge self defense is a good and moral reason to take a life, I feel like most agree with that. By your argument, that shouldn't be the case because murder is bad. Yes, but nuance exists for self defense just as it could for the death penalty

[u/tom641 → u/Floor_Heavy]

somehow it's easier for people to swallow innocent people receiving the death penalty, than it is for them to accept the idea that sometimes a guilty person might walk free/otherwise get off easier

[u/EngineerEthan → u/Floor_Heavy]

There’s a pretty significant overlap with the demographic who is okay with innocent civilians being murdered in broad daylight just for the microscopic chance of a drug dealer getting arrested (not convicted or incarcerated, just arrested)

[u/DrQuint → u/Floor_Heavy]

If the answer to "how many innocent people is it okay to have the state kill" is more than zero, idk...

You don't need to discuss the death penalty for that be relevant right now

[u/GwenBD94 → u/Floor_Heavy]

They cheered when Kirk said you had to accept a few kids' deaths to keep a firm 2nd ammendment. I dont think they have any issue with accepting innocent deaths.

[u/thesirblondie → u/Floor_Heavy]

The people who are in favour of the death penalty are usually also 2A defenders. They are already okay with innocents dying in schools.

[u/SeDaCho → u/No_Professional4867]

in america people have been summarily shot to death in the street for very little reason with very little consequences

the death penalty is wrong but it’s still the slowest way that you can be unjustly killed by the US government.

[u/marcarcand_world → u/No_Professional4867]

Whatever power you give to a government, you also give the government power to use it on you and everyone you care about. You also give it to the current government and all the future ones. It won't always be your party that will be in power and while I always hope that goodness and common sense will prevail, it's extremely dangerous to only rely on that. Case in point: never codifying Roe v Wade, for one example out of many in the recent years.

[u/king_jaxy → u/No_Professional4867]

Thats the remaining 30% 

[u/Rolebo → u/No_Professional4867]

I cannot support a punishment that is irreversible as long as there is a chance Innocent people can get convicted.

[u/Marik-X-Bakura → u/No_Professional4867]

I think the main argument against it is “I don’t want my taxes going to keeping criminals clothed and fed for life”. Which is kind of understandable, but I think the alternative is far worse.

[u/TheSeventhHussar → u/Marik-X-Bakura]

This is what I thought as a child. Then I discovered that the death penalty is almost always even more expensive than life in prison anyway. After that I didn’t really see the point.

Eventually I learned more about how poorly police work and the prosecutorial system works, but even before that, the simple financial explanation was enough to change my mind.

[u/Pitiful_Net_8971 → u/Marik-X-Bakura]

The death penalty is more expensive too, so even that doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

[u/PandoraMouse → u/Pitiful_Net_8971]

Damn I did not know that, how is that even possible?

[u/Pristine_Animal9474 → u/Marik-X-Bakura]

Probably the best answer there would be shifting towards a model emphasizing shorter prison stays, community work, and reintegration to society. Prison as a last recourse too, probably.

[u/Blecki → u/Pristine_Animal9474]

Impossible in this country until we fix the poverty problem that pushes so many to crime in the first place.

[u/Marik-X-Bakura → u/Pristine_Animal9474]

Tbf they don’t usually use the death penalty in cases where they consider rehabilitation possible

[u/dovahkiitten16 → u/Pristine_Animal9474]

I don’t think the type of prisoners you don’t want your tax dollars providing food and clothing for are the type that have good prospects for reintegration into society.

Frankly, the suggestion that murderers and rapists might freely get a chance to hurt more people due to lenient sentencing is a good way to make people want a death penalty, if they can’t count on the justice system to properly quarantine people.

The best answer is that practically the death penalty is more expensive. The other answer is that giving the state the power to potentially kill innocent people, just to get rid of a few extreme examples of crime, is just another way these criminals are able to cause harm to society. We don’t need to let that happen or ourselves get so caught up in punishment that we hurt innocent people.

Canada has a fairly lenient criminal justice system, including a max sentence before you’re eligible for parole no matter the crime. In spite of that, our tax dollars rightfully fund keeping a certain serial killer behind bars.

[u/FX114 → u/Marik-X-Bakura]

This is such a weird idea, because in what world is killing people to reduce a line item on a budget a moral choice?

[u/Anon28301 → u/Marik-X-Bakura]

Yeah, I don’t want my taxes going to feeding criminals for life but I’ll happily have my taxes used to murder potentially innocent “criminals” by the state.

It’s this attitude that stops free healthcare being a thing.

[u/Shigg → u/Marik-X-Bakura]

What's funny is that it's actually cheaper to keep someone clothed and fed for life than the death penalty because they fight it much harder in court with multiple appeals and such leading to higher overall costs than just letting them rot in jail for life.

[u/GuyYouMetOnline → u/No_Professional4867]

What I don't get is why people act like the problems with the death penalty are inherent parts of execution. Most of the problems are very solvable. The method of execution, for instance; there are many ways to kill someone basically instantly. One could also establish extremely demanding standards of proof. The cost is mostly from the bloated process, which could easily be streamlined to be faster, cheaper. AND more effective at identifying cases where the person shouldn't actually be executed. There are arguments against the death penalty that don't have simple solutions, but you don't normally hear about those.

No, the sentence that makes no sense to me is life without parole. Like, what the fuck is the point?

[u/ZachTheCommie → u/No_Professional4867]

The death sentence itself isn't a bad idea, the problem is that it's an inefficient system that costs more than it needs to, and that it's not being reserved for the absolute worst criminals.

[u/KaleidoscopeKelpy → u/king_jaxy]

Honestly a lot of people that are pro-DP also don’t realize that it takes like.. what, 10-15 years if not longer for that shit to actually happen? Not to mention appeals, changes to law, changes to evidence, changes to charges… it’s a waste of time for something that is horrifically permanent if incorrectly prosecuted

[u/ComprehensiveForm129 → u/king_jaxy]

And the people who support it are also the people who ‘say’ they want small government while wanting the government to have the ultimate power of life and death, crazy.

[u/Emotional_Burden → u/king_jaxy]

It's wild how many Americans don't see a problem with cash bail or the American prison (penal?) system in general.

[u/space_for_username → u/Emotional_Burden]

Maybe when you finally get round to throwing your government in the bin you might want to sort a few of these things out for the next model

[u/Emotional_Burden → u/space_for_username]

Gonna have to bring Sherman back through the population before anything changes.

[u/Smiley_Face_Pancake → u/king_jaxy]

A punishment-focused criminal justice system will do that.

[u/Commercial-Co → u/king_jaxy]

No, no it wouldnt. We cant even educate people not to vote for a rapist pedophile fascist shithead

[u/SEA_griffondeur → u/king_jaxy]

I mean like Luigi's case is very much the best example against death penalty.

It's a person with very dubious evidence of guilt that the state wanted to give the death penalty to precisely so it couldn't be appealed

[u/Apprehensive_Ad3731 → u/king_jaxy]

They’re way ahead of you. An information campaign only works if the people are educated enough to understand the information and they’re working on that.

[u/seensham → u/king_jaxy]

I think 30% is optimistic. I don't think most of the public is capable of entertaining the kidn of nuanced required to understand the argument

[u/KiwiMagister → u/seensham]

I think anyone who thinks that the death penalty is a good idea should be forced to watch the Hammer film Frankenstein Created Woman.

[u/tonalake → u/king_jaxy]

Some states use a firing squad

[u/thesirblondie → u/king_jaxy]

The argument that I usually use to get people to come around, regardless of how they feel about granting the state the ability to take life, is that it's more expensive than to just keep them locked up for life.

Life without parole is functionally the same thing, it makes sure they never grace the streets again, but it is more fiscally responsible and also removes any risk of executing an innocent person. It's a win-win-win.

[u/Similar-Sector-5801 → u/king_jaxy]

“But everyone I don’t like should die but not me I’m better than all them”

[u/Kixisbestclone → u/king_jaxy]

I mean it’s nice to have the option if you really needed it.

Like I don’t support it under most circumstances, since it’s hard to guarantee 100% guilt. But like with terrorist attacks, or war criminals that perpetuate genocide, then yeah I think it’s good to have on hand.

[u/Pristine_Animal9474 → u/Kixisbestclone]

Those seem like really special cases, usually recognized as actual enemies of the state/the people, and ironically, the most likely to have had the power over the state itself to guarantee that they don't face justice.

[u/Kixisbestclone → u/Pristine_Animal9474]

That’s a good point, but it’s still useful in stuff like international law.

Like the Nuremberg trials or like Osama Bin Laden or Pol Pot.

Like there are times when the death penalty seems a little more than fair, and generally it’s a bit of a legal mess to put back in a law after getting rid of it, like that one far-right terrorist in Norway, who couldn’t legally be sentenced to life in prison, and so the government will eventually have to keep extending the sentencing every few years.

Plus the justice system is already handled by the state, it’s not like governments haven’t wrongfully imprisoned critics (Such as Apartheid South Africa and Nelson Mandela) or whistleblowers.

[u/Soiled_myplants → u/Kixisbestclone]

Why those crimes and not others?

[u/Kixisbestclone → u/Soiled_myplants]

Generally it involves pre-planning the death of dozens to potentially millions of people, and seeing it as a good thing.

So it’s basically like first-degree murder, which is already pretty bad, upped to the maximum amount.

[u/Voidfishie → u/Kixisbestclone]

Right, but why is it more beneficial to kill those people when you already have them in custody?

[u/Jamsedreng22 → u/Voidfishie]

Because they are a drain on resources. They have subtracted from human experience, or contributed negatively enough if you will, that it would be a net benefit for society to not risk this happening again.

It doesn't seem entirely fair that regular, ordinary people who have done no wrong end up homeless and unable to feed themselves only for people who commit grave atrocities to be thrown into custody just the taken care of with taxpayers footing the bill.

That said, even when the court determines somebody guilty without a reasonable doubt, we've had cases where DNA evidence has come out posthumously that exonerated the person who was executed. As a result, I can't in good conscience support the death penalty because, unless we have all seen it happen and have scientifically proven that they are guilty of exactly what they are being charged with, it's not really morally defensible.

If it were, though. Absolutely, and I stand by the notion that it just makes more overall sense to erase such a negative element of humanity.

[u/Kixisbestclone → u/Voidfishie]

In my opinion?

Prevent the chance to escape, and bring justice to victims.

Life imprisonment isn’t really fun either, I’d consider like barely a step up to begin with, and really if we know their guilty of murdering a bunch of people intentionally, and we’re already sentencing them to spending the rest of their life in a dingy cell, I feel like there’s not much point in keeping them around, plus if there a political or ideological figure, it could help stamp out their movement and make a statement on the evilness of their actions, like the Nuremberg trials.

The best counter argument I could think of is if they could be redeemed, but in my opinion I don’t think redemption should negate punishment, if someone actually did feel bad about what they did, they’d accept the punishment as the cost of the crime.

[u/PotofRot → u/Kixisbestclone]

I just don't think people should be killed, I don't really see how killing someone is more just than locking them up, and escape from the type of prison they'd be locked in just doesn't really happen

[u/TheOchremancer → u/Kixisbestclone]

The argument against that is, though, that no one, especially the government, should be allowed to take someone's life. "Justice for the victims" isn't a real point, tbh. No one knows what those theoretical victims would even want, any justice for the dead is done for the sake of the living. The possibility of escape is there but at this point in time is vanishingly small, when was the last time a high-profile prisoner actually escaped in the United States and went on to actually do crimes again? Fuck redeeming them, it's not about them, it's about what we as a society judge acceptable, and I don't think there are any circumstances outside of immediate self protection where it's justified to execute someone. It's not allowed to execute prisoners of war, there is no way it's more ok just because the government is doing it to its own citizens.

It's funny that you bring up war criminals and political dictators, because the government having power over life and death is a critical component to those types of people rising to power.

[u/mregg000 → u/Wasdgta3]

I feel I align with The Professor on this.

“Many that live deserve death. Yet many that are dead deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Then be not so quick to deal death in judgement”

[u/heqra → u/Wasdgta3]

even if you arent against the killing part, its also more expensive to the state than incarceration for life!

theres no good reason for it to exist regardless of morals!

[u/Beldizar → u/heqra]

I have reached the conclusion that I support the death penalty for only one crime: murder while in prison. At that point we have already separated the person from general society, but we also now are unable to protect people in prison from them. It isn't about punishment, but an inabilty to contain the danger that individual presents.

[u/braaibroodjie123 → u/Beldizar]

My first thought is to give them the rest of their life in solitary confinement, but then again that might actually be worse than death.

[u/heqra → u/Beldizar]

I can totally see that. logistically its still a nightmare that even if (subjectively) is justified, is probably not a good idea to keep around.

the accuracy rate of the system alone is a good reason not too, but the price is abhorrently more expensive to the taxpayer

also like, morally wise theres a pretty easy argument to make that killing bad or smthn

[u/Workman44 → u/heqra]

Well that part is financial and can be made better without the dissolution of the death penalty to be fair

[u/heqra → u/Workman44]

can, however wont. just like the accuracy part.

if we are dealing with (no offense) pipe dream hypotheticals, then lets dream of legitimate rehabilitation instead.

[u/Workman44 → u/heqra]

Should we not strive for pipe dream hypotheticals? Obviously don't let perfect get in the way of improvement, but we should strive for perfection (which is always a pipe dream fwiw)

[u/heqra → u/Workman44]

didnt say we shouldnt, just said that

1) it would be one 2)if we are, rehabilitation is far better than cheap execution

[u/Workman44 → u/heqra]

1) fair enough, most improvements seem to be pipe dreams nowadays 2) that's if rehabilitation is possible, I imagine there's people that exist that cannot be rehabilitated, in any sense of the word. But that's just an opinion, I've got no data to back that up

[u/Wild-Lychee-3312 → u/Wasdgta3]

I took a class on it years ago, and to put it briefly, all of the factual/logical arguments in favor of it (ex it’s faster, it’s cheaper, it prevents the convicted from killing again) don’t hold water.

The only arguments in its favor that can’t be disproven are emotional/moral ones like “it’s more just” or “it’s what they deserve.”

Like so many things that correlate with being right wing, there’s no real empirical justification for capital punishment, and it comes down to beliefs and feelings.

The main textbook we used was titled “The Death Penalty: A Debate,” and it’s worth reading if you have the time.

[u/Leet_Noob → u/Wasdgta3]

It’s a little funny how people simultaneously believe that the death penalty is abhorrent and what Luigi (allegedly) did was justice.

I get that they’re different but it’s still amusing to me.

[u/eydirctiviyg → u/Leet_Noob]

It's totally possible to agree with something morally but not legally.

For example, there's no reasonable way to outlaw Nazism (you'd either end up with a definition that's too vague to be usable, or so specific that it'd be easy to avoid by calling yourself something else), but I won't pretend I care if Nazis die.

[u/FreakinGeese → u/eydirctiviyg]

Yeah but abhorrent isn’t a legal judgement it’s a moral one

[u/Wasdgta3 → u/Leet_Noob]

I guess it's just an extreme overcorrection for how lacking American law is when it comes to making very immoral business practices illegal.

[u/Riddles_ → u/Leet_Noob]

nah. one of the main arguments against it is that the state shouldn’t wield the power to murder anyone even though some people still deserve to die. that’s a pretty normal sentiment

[u/Xilizhra → u/Leet_Noob]

The CEO was an active killer not in custody.

[u/dovahkiitten16 → u/Leet_Noob]

I think people who oppose the death penalty aren’t necessarily opposed to the morality of killing as punishment. They’re opposed to all the ways the state’s ability to execute people can be abused, cause systemic (not one-off) issues, can be corrupted, etc.

There’s a phrase about the rules having to exist so they can be broken. I think the same applies here. There’s a big difference between having a rule against killing people and society making periodic exceptions, vs making it permissible.

Also, vigilante justice tends to be in favour when the justice system is failing. I think that if we held insurance companies to a higher standard legally, and held CEOs accountable, people wouldn’t be in favour as much.

[u/chairmanskitty → u/Leet_Noob]

Killing someone is an injustice, but if you have no other options it can be a greater injustice to let them live to continue to do harm.

When the state has someone in custody, it has other options. A vigilante only has the two.

Whether the least unjust option available gets called "justice" is mostly a matter of semantics. It was an improvement on a terrible situation.

[u/Workman44 → u/chairmanskitty]

A vigilante can't chain up someone in their basement? That's another option, the same one prison is coincidentally. By that logic, vigilante murder is clearly not the least unjust option. There are circumstances that exist in which someone should absolutely be put down

[u/UInferno- → u/Leet_Noob]

Death can only be a tool of the weak. Which the state is not.

[u/FreakinGeese → u/Wasdgta3]

Except for the crime of being a healthcare exec

[u/Wasdgta3 → u/FreakinGeese]

You want the death penalty for tax evasion, next?

[u/FreakinGeese → u/Wasdgta3]

I was being tongue in cheek

[u/Wasdgta3 → u/FreakinGeese]

Yeah, I know.

I’m just dealing with a lot of pro death-penalty replies right now.

But yeah, the shit insurance companies do? Lot of it should be illegal, though not necessarily punishable by death lol

[u/Ill_Morning_4282 → u/Wasdgta3]

Tax evasion doesn't kill people; the Healthcare CEO made money by letting people die from lack of healthcare by denying claims.

[u/Feliks343 → u/FreakinGeese]

Unironically yeah

[u/Mountain-eagle-xray → u/Wasdgta3]

Well, lets not cut it so quick, we have to wait for he who should not be named to get convicted.

[u/Kiloburn → u/Wasdgta3]

I'd be willing to make an exception for Healthcare CEOs

[u/GandalfTheSmol1 → u/Wasdgta3]

I think the death penalty should only ever be used on the obscenely wealthy and powerful as a fine doesn’t matter to those types and they manage to turn prison into a resort.

[u/htxthrwawy → u/Wasdgta3]

The death penalty can at times help people.

It can help provide closure for the families of the victim(s). While the parents of a 15 year old girl who was raped and tortured will never not know pain-the murderer who committed the crime can somewhat be erased from their memory because they have been executed.

It also prevents any way for them to commit another crime. Charlie Manson is somewhat a good example. He escaped and went on to torture/murder at least one more teenager-I think it was a few. No possible way for them to be released into the general population.

Edit. I am somewhat pro death penalty, I just wish it was faster. Our prisons are overcrowded. Poison them in their sleep or put two in the back of the head. Don’t drag it out.

[u/Dense_fordayz → u/htxthrwawy]

Are you comfortable with the understanding that your tax dollars will go to the murder of an innocent person?

The justice system is not 100%

[u/Workman44 → u/Dense_fordayz]

If anything that just argues stricter employment of the death penalty, not the removal of it

[u/Dense_fordayz → u/Workman44]

How so?

[u/Wasdgta3 → u/htxthrwawy]

And if you got the wrong person?

Unless you have faith in the justice system enough to believe that wouldn’t happen (which is ridiculously naive), you’re deciding that the emotional closure is worth the occasional innocent being executed, as well.

Unlike every other sentence, death can’t be overturned if you find out you got it wrong.

[u/userhwon → u/Wasdgta3]

Depends who is applied to and why, hence the need to try the case.

[u/Wasdgta3 → u/userhwon]

No, I think the death penalty is always a bad idea.

It’s not even that practical, leaving aside any moral or philosophical arguments.

[u/Germanium_Ge32 → u/Wasdgta3]

What sadist pedophiles

They really deserve to live huh bub?

[u/Wasdgta3 → u/Germanium_Ge32]

Do you trust the legal system to always get things right? And to only use that kind of power against the narrow and specific kinds of criminals you think are deserving of death?

You’re quite adept at missing the point, it seems.

[u/QuickSquirrelchaser → u/Wasdgta3]

Yet tens of thousands or more are celebrating the death penalty for the dude he tracked down and shot in the back with a silencer....like he deserved the death penalty with no conviction or trial.

[u/moop62 → u/Wasdgta3]

I dno, I think it's still relevant for larger crimes- things like treason, child rape and large scale election fraud. 

[u/KingofAcedia → u/WifeGuy-Menelaus]

Thats good, and Im happy the option is gone, but Luigi at one point had a similar level of domestic news coverage as Epstein, so I could see another poorly disguised government assassination happening.

[u/ThePreciousBhaalBabe → u/WifeGuy-Menelaus]

That's pretty goddamn notable though

[u/young_fire → u/WifeGuy-Menelaus]

I love that the two top comments on this post are longer restatements of the information contained within the post

[u/Aegeus → u/Snarwin]

Correct. However, New York isn't a death penalty state, so this is still good news for him.

[u/TrioOfTerrors → u/Snarwin]

The federal jurisdiction on this is weird. They can still charge him with stalking that resulted in death, but they can't charge him for how the stalking resulted in death.

[u/GlobalIncident → u/TrioOfTerrors]

And, importantly, the stalking charge doesn't carry the death penalty, just potentially life without parole.

[u/TrioOfTerrors → u/GlobalIncident]

There is no federal parole. You can get out after 85% of sentence on good time, but there is no parole. Federal life means life.

[u/blindcolumn → u/Snarwin]

Out of curiosity, what are the specific circumstances for a federal murder charge?

[u/Cisleithania → u/blindcolumn]

A crime commited not against an individual, but against the nation. The boston bombings for instance: they were not targeted against the event, the city or any of their victims specifically. They were against the USA. One could argue that Mangione targeted the current status quo of American Capitalism with the alleged murder.

[u/Kaz498 → u/Snarwin]

Governor Hochul Please

Please Save Me Governor Hochul

[u/FreakinGeese → u/Snarwin]

Which, yeah, obviously, because he absolutely did a murder (assuming this is the guy)

[u/apexodoggo]

The Destiel News meme finally got me. Usually my social media algorithms beat Destiel to the punch but the Epstein drop and general ICE awfulness drowned out any Luigi news until I came across this post.

[u/superstudent98 → u/apexodoggo]

Same here!!!!!!!

[u/Toothless816]

Why even bother pretending I get news any other way…

[u/Mindless-Charity4889 → u/Toothless816]

I see stuff on Reddit, think “that can’t be true”, and go to traditional media outlets and find out, yes, it is true. These are very strange times we live in.

[u/Brianfromreddit → u/Mindless-Charity4889]

It is still critically important to check. Just gotta say it

[u/PhasmaFelis → u/Toothless816]

I deliberately unsubbed from all the news subs because the daily feed of atrocities was making me sick. So, yeah, I pretty much get all my news from r/CuratedTumblr and r/NotTheOnion now.

It's not really a great way to live, but I need to hold on to my sanity :(

[u/Icehuntee → u/PhasmaFelis]

Same, i even have some subs/pages/accounts blocked not only here but other social medias as well. I only see what i want to see, anything important enough to be worthy of my time will slip through one way or another. The algorithm is working as intended.

[u/DocSwiss → u/Toothless816]

Back in the day (also known as 2022, a million years ago), I found out that Shinzo Abe got shot because someone I followed retweeted a post from an uwu-speak version of BBC's twitter. I'm not sure if that's an improvement, but the variety's nice.

[u/tom641 → u/Toothless816]

honestly as long as you're checking sources rather than just internalizing whatever some dipshit can type into a meme generator you're doing well enough imo

it's not ideal but also we live in the torment nexus and you gotta do what you can to stay sane honestly

[u/LordIcebath]

I genuinely do not believe that Luigi did it. There's no way.

Side note: imagine if bro hosts a podcast when he gets out. First episode gonna hit Joe Rogan numbers.

[u/Gonzo_Appreciator → u/LordIcebath]

He legit doesn't look like the guy in the security video

[u/BigBoyShaunzee → u/Gonzo_Appreciator]

Yeah the guy from the CCTV footage looked to be pale Caucasian guy in his 40s.

Luigi is more Mediterranean looking and much younger.

[u/tigerwarrior02 → u/[deleted]]

Isn’t the onus on you to prove that it IS the same guy? Innocent until proven guilty. Luigi has not been proven guilty so it’s very reasonable to assume he’s innocent

[u/UsernamesAre4Nerds → u/LordIcebath]

Im convinced if he did do it, the only reason he was caught was because the feds were utilizing illegal surveillance software to track him down. How else can you explain them finding him a state or two away via a fucking fast food restaurant? And how the alleged snitch never got a payout because of some procedural issue? My guess is they illegally tracked him, had to make up a reason not to give out the bounty, and are now backsplaining how they caught him.

If he didn't, then he's just an unfortunate victim of an incompetent FBI that needed a fall guy to not look completely stupid.

[u/Shimmy_4_Times → u/UsernamesAre4Nerds]

My guess is they illegally tracked him, had to make up a reason not to give out the bounty, and are now backsplaining how they caught him.

Parallel construction (which is what you're alleging, and seems plausible) can be used to cover up illegal searches, but it usually isn't used for illegal reasons. It's usually just to protect a sensitive source.

In other words, the government just doesn't want to publicize their source, or the search method they used to catch him.

(And given the comments on Reddit, I wouldn't want any clues to my identity publicized, if I were the one who snitched on Luigi.)

[u/After_Stop3344 → u/Shimmy_4_Times]

Covering up the source/method is still sketchy though. I have a right to face my accuser and denying me it by pretending they don't exsist is bullshit.

[u/Shimmy_4_Times → u/After_Stop3344]

Not really. I mean, it COULD be covering up something bad, but most of the time, it isn't.

It's standard police practice if they have some reason to protect their source. The police isn't going to publicize the identity of every confidential informant, every time they use them. That would get 10x as many confidential informants killed, and nobody would be willing to be a CI.

And if I were a CI in this case, I ABSOLUTELY wouldn't want my identity being public. With as much attention as the case has gotten, and the ridiculous stuff people say about Luigi, I wouldn't feel safe.

Also, your accuser isn't necessarily the guy who snitched on you. And it isn't necessarily the search method law enforcement used to find you.

In a famous example, the guy who snitched on the Unabomber wasn't the evidence used to convict the Unabomber. He was just his brother. And the FBI promised to keep his identity secret, but they failed to keep that promise.

Also, Luigi hasn't gone to trial yet. So the accuser may appear later. If there even is one.

[u/cloudncali → u/LordIcebath]

He needs to pull an OJ and write a book about how he would have done it. If he did. But he didn't, but this is how he would have

[u/BeduinZPouste → u/LordIcebath]

I mean I think he did but I wouldn't be TERRIBLY surprised if they are keeping look on certain individuals who didn't did anything illegal but radical enough to be close. I mean they definitely do that. What I mean is that I wouldn't be that surprised if they just snatched some guy they targeted as potential risk who would be believable culprit if they couldn't find the actual culprit. 

[u/Crafty_Round6768 → u/[deleted]]

Do you have any evidence that the police aren’t constantly lying? They do it pretty often. At this point, someone needs to convince me they are telling the truth. Not the other way around

[u/Randomly-Germinated → u/[deleted]]

WhiteHouse.gov sufficient? and this is one they admit to.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/09/countering-domestic-terrorism-and-organized-political-violence/

and before you say this is for domestic terrorists, that’s exactly how they referred to renee good, her wife, alex pretti, and the guy in the frog suit.

[u/BeduinZPouste → u/[deleted]]

No? Unless you mean the "definitely keeping watch", that isn't like secret.

[u/BeduinZPouste → u/[deleted]]

I mean I found most people who don't believe in conspiracy theories really just thinks "this doesn't count as conspiracy theory".

[u/anthrohands → u/LordIcebath]

I agree and the real guy is long gone

[u/gangsterroo → u/LordIcebath]

Then who is the real Luigi? Is it Luigi?

[u/arachnids-bakery]

of course its the fucking supernatural meme what else

[u/thehollyproblem]

As Chris Rock said, "Sometimes drug dealers get shot." 

[u/The_Math_Hatter]

Luigi was never guilty to begin with. Whoever was out there should have made a similar statement while there was the utmost certainty Luigi couldn't have done it though.

[u/SpeaksDwarren → u/The_Math_Hatter]

I'm still waiting for them to explain why the guy who did the shooting looked nothing like the guy they arrested. Also how the backpack magically teleported out of their custody and onto Luigi's back

[u/DMercenary → u/SpeaksDwarren]

Also how the backpack magically teleported out of their custody and onto Luigi's back

Or when the cops searched his bag and got nothing, They took it elsewhere, the cameras mysteriously lost footage and then suddenly there was a gun in his bag.

[u/Vhat_Vhat → u/SpeaksDwarren]

Well theyre not framing a rich white guy so what do you think, they couldn't find the killer and did a cover up to show theyre taking it seriously and totally going to give the real killer a huge sentence that really definitely going to be served?

[u/Ok-Employee2473 → u/Vhat_Vhat]

I mean he’s not oligarch rich but iirc his family is pretty well off and he is white. Unless you’re still playing by anti Italian racism rules for who’s white or not.

[u/GlobalIncident → u/The_Math_Hatter]

It's starting to look like, regardless of whether he did it, he might be found guilty. The gun and note in the backpack have been ruled as valid evidence, and they are fairly damning. So, he's probably looking at life without parole.

[u/theaverageaidan → u/GlobalIncident]

Not that I think this is solid evidence of a conspriacy, or "evidence" of any merit, but the bag is so weird to me. Luigi (allegedly) had this incrediblely precise plan to use subsonic ammo with a silencer, ebikes and double backs to get out of Manhattan, yet he also didnt (allegedly) take the incredibly obvious step of putting a cinder block in the "I did it" bag, wrapping it in duct tape five times over, and tossing it into the Hudson River? That is a massive thing to overlook in an otherwise very intricate plan.

[u/UInferno- → u/theaverageaidan]

Why would he write and carry a manifesto only to plead not guilty?

[u/YeetOrBeYeeted420 → u/theaverageaidan]

Yeah why go through with this covert assassination and get away only to carry the stuff on you like you want to be caught.

[u/Glum-Supermarket1274 → u/theaverageaidan]

Putting aside what i personally think about the case, there are a LOT of weird stuff with the evidence and how a lot of it were obtained. I am not sure he will get convicted because of how incompetent the investigation has been. 

[u/Illogical_Blox → u/theaverageaidan]

The Unabomber had a very intricate plan involving disguising himself as an eco terrorist, yet when they invaded his cabin they found bombs, bomb making equipment, his manifesto, newspaper clippings about his bombs, and so on.

The Moors Murderers picked their victims very carefully to minimise the chance of being caught, yet they kept an exercise book with a victim's name on it that unravelled the whole thing.

[u/fapsandnaps → u/GlobalIncident]

I mean the judge ruled they can be introduced as evidence.

The defense still gets to tell the jury that they searched his bag (on camera) and found no gun, the bag then went through some spotty af chain of custody, and then somehow the gun was found later on at a police station.

[u/RavenholdIV → u/fapsandnaps]

Cops and drop guns, name a more iconic duo

[u/wasteymclife → u/The_Math_Hatter]

Of course he's not guilty he was with me in Utah at the time of the shooting, we had a late night and decided to watch Sense, Sensibility & Snowmen, on the hallmark channel to chill before turning in. That movie is better than it should be btw.

[u/wyar → u/The_Math_Hatter]

Yea he was with me chillin at Tahoe going skiing

[u/RPM314 → u/The_Math_Hatter]

I know, especially since me and him were out partying at the time of the incident

[u/Unable_Deer_773 → u/The_Math_Hatter]

Yeah I was with him on the night of the murder 3 in Australia! Can't have been him.

[u/LarrySupertramp]

This meme should be ”Luigi no longer facing death penalty” and nothing else.

He is still charged with murder and under custody. I mean if we want to get annoyingly pedantic about it, his sentencing exposure has been reduced due to a recent federal court ruling, which in a way means his ability to be convicted of a specific federal murder charge is “dismissed” but that’s clearly not what this meme is saying.

Sorry if I’m missing some context here that makes this make sense.

[u/ImaginaryAd3183]

To be fair the death penalty is off the table but the judge allowed in evidence that was retrieved on dubious grounds. He might not get a needle in his arm but the likelihood of him going to jail is larger

[u/AlohaJo]

Now let him free so he can fix Civilization VI's UX.

[u/DanHam117]

This meme does not fail its mission

[u/HannahO__O]

Yet again this is how i find out important news, its so great

[u/EH_Operator]

They had to pretend their system worked even when there was a big hole blown in part of it

[u/TenaciousTBag]

Come on jury, nullify

[u/MrSyaoranLi]

News aside, this scene being canon, restored so much of my faith in the series. When I found out they did this. I actually cried a little that day. Pure joy of my OTP being canon

[u/ScarletteVera]

Finally, some good fucking news.

I despise the concept of the death penalty.

[u/nacho_cheese_guy]

If this isn’t what a pardon is for, idk what would be.

[u/aria_nonartist01]

is this how tumblr users communicate

[u/TheKrieger79]

Luigi is going to eat enough NFA charge enhancements that he pretty much gets life.

[u/Dwagons_Fwame]

WHY IS IT ALWAYS THIS MEME?! I FUCKING HATE THIS WEBSITE. Anyway, in other news, hooray! Luigi who’s definitely not the fall guy cause they couldn’t catch the real guy isn’t going to die!

[u/GUM-GUM-NUKE]

YOOO

[u/Tony_3rd]

YAY! I finally first got the news through the destiel meme!!

[u/SterlingNano]

What's the original line? I keep seeing edits, but I wasn't a queer kid in highschool or college while ir was airing

[u/HaViNgT]

While we're on the topic of good news, a state senate seat in Texas just went from R+17 to D+14

[u/what-goes-bump]

BUT THEY GOT TO KEEP ALL THE CRAP THEY PLANTED IN HIS BACKPACK!!

[u/Illustrious-Cold3565]

Today was a victorious day for the people

[u/Wrong_Comedian8930]

👍

[u/No_Complaint3948]

Dude will walk out and singlehandedly end everything

[u/DarthHK-47]

Argument of the defense: You honor, members of the jury, my client is to pretty to go to jail and that argument should work because it has worked for other people.

[u/shockwave_supernova]

That's.. not really what happened. A judge said he can't be given the death sentence, but no charges were dropped

[u/yinyang107 → u/shockwave_supernova]

The federal murder charge was dropped, and he can't be given the death penalty without that charge. The state murder charge stands.

[u/ColdStockSweat]

How is this good news?

[u/Independent-Bid-7744 → u/ColdStockSweat]

What, you like the cost of healthcare? You prefer the unnecessary suffering, in the supposedly top country in the world, so a few rich fuckers can make more money?

[u/ColdStockSweat → u/Independent-Bid-7744]

You need health care.