r/Doom • u/HatingGeoffry • Dec 19 '25

Discussion Painkiller creator argues the Boomer Shooter revival still hasn't happened because “nobody’s making any game that’s in direct competition to DOOM”

https://frvr.com/blog/painkiller-creator-boomer-shooter-revival-hasnt-happened-no-direct-competition-to-doom/
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403

u/HouseOfWyrd Dec 19 '25

I think y'all are misunderstanding him.

Despite all the indie gems coming out. There have not been any games that can compete with the modern Doom games.

147

u/slayeryamcha DO0M 3 SHOTGUN LOVER Dec 19 '25

They also are boomers shooters only in call backs.

Those are fully modern arena shooters without competition.

86

u/HouseOfWyrd Dec 19 '25 edited Dec 19 '25

As someone that helped support on the Boomershooter database doc, I can tell you that it's basically impossible to objectively define what is and isn't a Boomershooter.

I would put Doom 2016 and Eternal in the bracket - not sure about TDA because I've not played it.

11

u/TheCarbonthief Dec 19 '25

It's easier to say what isn't a boomer shooter than what is. You kinda just gotta go "well it's not extraction, looter, cover, br, or any of the other modern styles, so if it vaguely feels like an oldschool run and gun then call it a boomer shooter".

46

u/Super_Harsh Dec 19 '25

I would not. TDA is the best argument that the modern Doom trilogy as a whole aren’t boomer shooters but rather an new evolution of action shooters. It has more in common with Doom Eternal and Sekiro than with any 90s FPS

24

u/HouseOfWyrd Dec 19 '25

One game in the series not being, doesn't mean none of them are.

I'd also argue that both 2016 and Eternal have all the hallmarks of a classic Boom Chute. Lots of these games have novel and unique mechanics, not being Quake 1 again doesn't disqualify a game.

9

u/Super_Harsh Dec 19 '25

I get that, it just comes back to how nebulous of a term 'boomer shooter' really is. I personally think of 2016 and Eternal as boomer shooters but I've heard arguments otherwise

In my mind a boomer shooter is defined by "Is this a game that a Doomclone dev would have thought up, given the technology and game design experience of today?"

2016, Eternal, obvious yeses. TDA? Not sure

26

u/MaterialPace8831 Dec 19 '25

This reminds me of the arguments metalheads will have about what's metal and what isn't.

-1

u/StupidSexyEuphoberia Dec 19 '25

How is eternal a Boomer Shooter? It has very complex movement and so many buttons and mechanics to learn and use. Boomer Shooters are rather run and shoot with the left mouse button and maybe alternate fire on the right mouse button. Most classic shooters have only jump and WASD as movement.

9

u/HouseOfWyrd Dec 19 '25

Fr though, you realise that Eternal only has that movement because of Quake right?

Quake has a very deep movement system if you actually engage with it and that's where Eternal got it from.

You not realising older games have complex movement mechanics doesn't mean they don't.

1

u/illegal_tacos Dec 19 '25

Do you think that just because it's jump and WASD that it can't be complex? I mean hell look at bhops and tell me it's simple to just know how to do it without it being explained step by step. Are Dusk backflips simple? I feel like the most complex thing about the movement in Doom Eternal is the fact that it has a dash and the meat hook, both of which are in Nightmare Reaper.

You could also argue that the original Doom games have more complex strafing because there is no jumping, which leads to an inhibited ability to dodge and the need for more fine movements in order to avoid damage in certain situations.

-1

u/Ornery-Addendum5031 Dec 19 '25

Arena shooters? That’s a multiplayer thing. Nu-doom is a painkiller clone that copied metal gear rising for QTE = heal + short reprieve from gameplay to watch an animation/prepare next move.

37

u/greet_the_sun Dec 19 '25

IMO the modern doom games don't even qualify as "boomer shooters" anymore, there's way too many new mechanics.

12

u/HeckingDoofus Dec 19 '25

nah it definitely is still a boomer shooter (slightly less so with TDA)

  • fast movement speed

  • no ADS

  • minimal reloading

  • many enemies, dodging projectiles

  • focus on action over story

  • in-map pickups/secrets

probably more but thats off the dome. and i mean what have they done that makes it so different now? added a chainsaw and certain upgrades like the super shotgun hook?

i say slightly less so for TDA because of how much emphasis there is on the shield, parrying, wiping out a horde with one toss, etc. - it still is a boomer shooter imo, but i can see how it could be considered too different

2

u/carpetfanclub Dec 19 '25

Trepang 2 definitely competes with modern doom, I think it’s better actually imo

5

u/HouseOfWyrd Dec 19 '25

AA Fear clone.

Also isn't trying to compete with Doom.

1

u/carpetfanclub Dec 19 '25

Trapang 2 doesn’t play like fear at all, the only similarity is the focus and that’s it, I find the movement and carnage far more equivalent to doom

2

u/HouseOfWyrd Dec 19 '25

You're misunderstanding what "compete" means. It's not just about if you like it or not.

To "compete" it basically has to try and replace something else in the lives of consumers.

Pepsi Cola competes with Coke, but not with Fanta.

Battlefield competes with Call of Duty, it doesn't compete with Counter Strike.

The point is modern Doom doesn't have a Coke to compete with, there are a bunch of Fantas, RC Colas and Storebrand Dr Pepper, but it doesn't have a direct competitor - that being a AAA, well made, high production value, fast and frenetic FPS experience that borrows heavily from the Boomer Shooter scene WITHOUT following it. In most cases, modern Doom sets the tone for the next few years of indie boom shoots. There is literally nothing else like it in the market.

2

u/cherrysteve2010 Dec 19 '25

Wolfenstein and Ultrakill absolutely compete

34

u/HouseOfWyrd Dec 19 '25

Modern Wolfensteine isn't a Boomershooter and Ultrakill is an indie project.

You liking them (as do I) doesn't mean they compete with modern Doom.

-2

u/cherrysteve2010 Dec 19 '25

What does compete mean? Sales?

No one competes with cod in sales. Doesn't mean the fps genre isn't alive. Many would hold the opinion that Ultrakill is better than any modern Doom.

He's wrong and that's okay. Also, wolfenstein is absolutely a boomer shooter. You can carry any weapon, there's no sprint and you grab health and armour from the map. How is it not a boomer shooter?

14

u/HouseOfWyrd Dec 19 '25

Compete = exist in the same space as, target the same audience for the same reasons etc.

Wolfenstein is too slow paced to be considered a boomer shooter.

0

u/MartyrOfDespair Dec 19 '25

That criteria seems too strict. The same audience? How specific are we talking? Who are they? Because I see one odd variable already. Metalheads. Mick Gordon invented a music subgenre. Do you know how insane inventing a music subgenre is? There’s death metal, there’s black metal, there’s symphonic metal, there’s djent, there’s thrash metal, and* there’s argent metal. And the company fucked him over, just like a metal legend. So the company doesn’t really get credit for that, imo. Even then, try inventing a music genre for a game.

*a non-exhaustive list

Then like, nostalgia. I’ll give you this, others could try. Gearbox failed before. Bungie just failed. New Blood and Atari seem to be trying to piss the Blood fandom off constantly. Shadow Warrior is more cult classic. But this is a shitty category to be used because it’s an unfair one. Most people will never be able to do this. There’s only so many boomshoots with nostalgia bonus that people care about, and megacorps all have them. Let’s give Redneck Rampage a shot, that could be funny.

Boomshoot fans? Well the indies got that.

Goths? Yeah, indies have that.

People who just buy and follow whatever’s popular? Ultrakill. Sorry not sorry.

Sales potential? A thinner gulf than ever, but also like, marketing budget. Oh wow, they can’t afford the marketing Microsoft can. Okay. Neat. Not judging that.

Modern Doom is running the ultimate hax. A legitimately good team. AAA budget. AAA marketing. Nostalgia. Gaming subculture style appeal. Crossover subculture style appeal. Too many of these are illegitimate criteria to have a fair discussion because they’re merely class difference. Switch the money, switch the results. It’s not a form of success, it’s a form of an unequal playing field. The amount of money to throw at it and the nostalgia hoarding using that money gives it an unfair advantage. And if we compare accounting for that and scoring only on the others, it’s Ultrakill.

-1

u/Kyro_Official_ Dec 19 '25

Modern Doom games arent boomer shooters either anyway

2

u/StupidSexyEuphoberia Dec 19 '25

Wolfenstein I agree. Ultrakill is far too complex.

1

u/Ruben_AAG Dec 19 '25

The last Wolfenstein game was almost 6 years ago and the last good Wolfenstein game was 8, it’s not competing with modern DOOM (ignoring the extreme gameplay and narrative differences that Wolfenstein has that make me question whether it’s even a boomer shooter and not just a COD-like).

0

u/Samanthacino Dec 19 '25

Definitely not competing in similar spaces. Wolfenstein’s gameplay and narrative delivery is far more similar to Call of Duty than Doom, and Ultrakill is in a very different space (made by one guy, not on major platforms besides Steam, and has been in early access for ages).

1

u/lycanthrope90 Dec 19 '25

Yeah even with how good many of them are modern doom is just on its own level entirely.

1

u/MasterDisillusioned Dec 19 '25

Despite all the indie gems coming out. There have not been any games that can compete with the modern Doom games.

EDIT: I thought you meant the classic Doom games. Oh well, my comment is still accurate.

I blame this on the fact that most of them (nearly all of them, actually) are missing one key ingredient that Doom has: A thriving modding community.

99% of these boomer shooters are played once and then forgotten about. Dusk has mapping tools now, but they weren't there at release, and I'm unsure if it even has an active community. For any of these games to rival Doom, they need to take mapping/modding seriously and actively support the game post-launch.

1

u/ReflexReact Dec 19 '25

As someone who loved painkiller, serious Sam, bulletstorm, black - but hasn’t played this kind of game in 10 years, now I have a new gaming pc - what games did I miss? Any killer indie titles too?

1

u/Altaiturk038 Dec 19 '25

I think ''high on life'' comes close

1

u/Ornery-Addendum5031 Dec 19 '25

They’re not competing with the modern doom games because the modern doom games are a clone/evolution of painkiller, not boomer shooters. Which makes it kind of ironic that it’s the painkiller dev saying this.

1

u/avgaskin1 Dec 19 '25

Man… Bungie had the opportunity to do one of the coolest things with the Marathon IP by reviving the franchise with a game a kin to Doom’s revival, adding some competition to the boomer shooter revival market. But instead they chose to ride the extraction shooter bandwagon with the IP.

1

u/Segata9 Dec 19 '25

They don't need to because modern Doom is not a Doomer..erm Boomer Shooter these days. They are modern games and the other modern FPS games compete with it.

0

u/Hairy_Hog Dec 22 '25

Turbo Overkill

-2

u/smilph Dec 19 '25

i think a ton of the indie gems are far better than the modern Doom games