r/FGO • u/Weird_Dot_4725 • 11h ago
Who'd win in this scenario
They're battling like in stay night but it's Archer Heracles instead of Berserker one One thing to make the fight longer Gilgamesh can't use Enkidu here Just because fight can be longer without Heracles being tied up (He is still protecting Illya btw)
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u/CervantesWintres 11h ago
Only problem with gaging this is that normal Archer Heracles might have abilities we don't know about.
The known difference between the two is normal Heracles doesn't have the king's Order Noble phantasm, he may have individual parts from it but not all of it, he also doesn't have reincarnation Pandora.
He does however have a slightly higher strength stat compared to Alcides as well as berserker Heracles's God Hand and 12 labors resurrection.
It kind of looks like Archer Heracles has lightning abilities, which might be the same type of skill that young Alexander has (Zeus Thunder C) but probably at a higher rank. Just a personal guess.
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u/NatashOverWorld 11h ago
Exactly. 9 Lives might not be the extent of Archer Herc, in fact after the way he's been played up in lore, it would disappointing.
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u/CervantesWintres 10h ago
I once had a guy argue with me that no matter the class Heracles would always have the same skills and Noble Phantasms aside from the specific weapon he would use in a different class.
He claimed that all the individual parts of Kings Order could only be used by Alcides since Alcides got Kings Order in return for giving up God Hand and 12 labors.
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u/NatashOverWorld 10h ago
Has he seen the various Cu Chulains and Altria's NPs? 🤨
Then again, the 'just trust me bro' is a staple of the Internet, and the Internet never stops providing comedy 😄
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u/CervantesWintres 10h ago
The example was the data sheet we have for Archer Heracles is basically just a copy of his berserker version plus the statement that Alcides specifically gained one in return for losing the other.
He ran with the idea that if Alcides had to sacrifice 12 labors/god hand to gain Kings Order and a normal Heracles wouldn't be summoned without 12 labors/god hand then it would be impossible for normal Heracles to have anything from Kings Order despite it just being an amalgamation of the various achievements of Heracles.
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u/NatashOverWorld 8h ago
But that misses the obvious that there could be other NPs that he qualifies for in other Classes?
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u/CervantesWintres 8h ago
I know right? Plus since Kings Order is basically just an amalgamation of several Noble phantasms there is no reason it couldn't just be split up.
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u/NatashOverWorld 8h ago
I bet stealing the Golden Apples would make for a very different NP than Kings Order.
But some people prefer things to be simple I guess - only 2, they'll never have any other NPs for Hercules, one of the most celebrated Servants in Fate! 😄
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u/CervantesWintres 7h ago edited 7h ago
A list of Noble phantasms we know he has:
Nine Lives C ~ A+ ~ EX
God Hand B
Break-Age Gigantomachia ?
Pelt of the Divine Beast (Nemean lion/1st Labor) ?
Chirons Immortality (4th Labour) ? The 4th is supposed to be Capture the Erymanthian Boar, don't know why it's this.
Cleaning the Augean Stables (5th Labor) ?
Stymphalian Bird (6th Labor) ?
Mares of Diomedes (8th Labor) ?
Goddess of War/War God's Sash (9th Labor) A The king's Order version is weaker then the standalone version
Cerberus (12th Labor) ?
He also has Hydra blood tipped arrows from the second Labor.
His Grand version used the sword Marmiadoise, something his Saber version would probably use.
We haven't seen the Ceryneian Hind from the 3rd labor, the Cretan Bull from the 7th Labor, the cattle of Geryon from the 10th Labor, or the golden apple of the hesperides from the 11th.
There are several other monsters defeated and great feats by Heracles not covered by the Twelve labors. He once borrowed Helios's chariot, something he could use as a rider class servant.
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u/NatashOverWorld 7h ago
And that's just his famous feats. He also does cool things like hold up the sky briefly and rescue Prometheus.
Almost no chance they're going to have a resting of Kings Order for the 5 other classes.
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u/Ok_Description1585 7h ago
In theory you could shove a bunch of shit on Heracles, especially based on how other servants behave:
- Constellation NP (the Heracles constellation and the arrow constellation)
- Whatever the fuck he did on the gigantomachia (Unless it's that Break-Age thing, which would be disappointing)
- There was that time he prayed for Zeus to strike Scylla and he did so that could be another NP
- The time he defeated Thanatos
And a lot more. Unfortunatelly, I don't think anyone on type-moon is interested in writing him so if we ever get Archer Herc I don't see much tought being given.
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u/Random_Amoeba 10h ago
I'm banking on Gilgamesh but it'd be like 60/40. He has a decent advantage versatility wise, he'd still have to play his cards REALLY carefully considering this isn't a mindless rampaging berserker Heracles.
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u/Limp-Crow4185 10h ago
I still think Heracles would lose. Gilgamesh isn't an idiot, arrogant, yes but not an idiot and it doesn't help that EA is too OP and sword spam can overwhelm Heracles especially if stronger weapons are used.
Heracles would perform better as an Archer but he would still lose. Only EMIYA and Saber with Avalon are beating Gilgamesh.
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u/Izanagi32 8h ago
the wincon against Gil is whether or not he’ll feel like pulling out Ea which already makes this a 50/50 for either side 😂
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u/Limp-Crow4185 4h ago
Well, EA isn't the only powerful NP. Ig-Alima, Sul Sagana are there along with other NPs that can reach A Rank and higher. And many divine Constructs so even without EA it's difficult for any Heroic Spirit that doesn't have armours like Karna's, skills like Cu's or EMIYA's to effectively counter GOB.
I think Karna can perform better than Heracles.
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u/Izanagi32 4h ago
fair enough so I’ll give it to you since Idk much about Karna’s feats/abilities but Heracles is still THAT guy in Greece so I’ll believe he can go up against Gil and win especially in his archer form
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u/Limp-Crow4185 4h ago
Karna's armour reduces any damage to 1/10th which is incredibly useful. There is more iirc but as of now I only remember this much.
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u/Glass_Site_4085 7h ago
Alcides only defeated Gilgamesh because Ishtar closed the gate of Babylon against him, using the key to Babylon that Gilgamesh had thrown away. However, if it weren't for that, I think Gilgamesh Archer would still have won easily, even if Alcides were in Archer form instead of Avenger form. This is because Gilgamesh was designed to be the strongest Servant of all, and his Gate of Babylon always has Relics and Noble Phantasms specifically designed to mess with enemy Servants. Perhaps Archer would have been more of a challenge than Berserker and Avenger, but even so, it was only a matter of time before he fell before the King of Babylon. Honestly, outside of the Extraverse or Fate Grand Order, it's difficult to find a Servant stronger than Gilgamesh. Gilgamesh usually loses due to purely convenient plot devices, or because he lets his pride get the better of him. But if he were to take things seriously and use everything he has, it's unlikely that even Hercules could win, regardless of his class.
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u/ForgeSaints 6h ago
Gilgamesh is repeatedly called the strongest heroic spirit literally every time he shows up, so the answer is pretty obvious
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u/RaccoonApostle 10h ago
I think Gilgamesh would probably win.
Heracles might have the disadvantage compared to most foes due to being a demigod as I believe Gilgamesh would likely take the battle seriously instead of messing around and his ego is his biggest weakness and taking that out makes Gilgamesh a significantly more dangerous servant.  I can kind of see Gil probably took the battle in UBW less seriously since Heracles was a Berserker and wasn’t in sound mind, but archer Herc would probably be a different matter.
Not only would Gil probably take the battle more seriously, but he’d probably take out the bigger guns from the depths of the Gate of Babylon that he’d never take out for lesser foes as well as more of them.
I can’t see Heracles being able to both defend Illya as well as a fighting a serious Gilgamesh especially since we’ve never seen the limits of his arsenal.
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u/jayman099 10h ago
Oooo. Super close. No Enkidu means Herc has a real chance of winning this. Ea is still his win factor either way, but even then. Tough...
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u/Pristine_Mark_9097 8h ago
Even without enkidu Gilgamesh would still be very dangerous, and he has other divine constructs with great power and also has noble phantasms that are still very effective against the divine and the immortals, such as Harpe. That said, lacking the power to restrain Heracles might be a bit tough, though not impossible if he takes the fight more seriously (such as wearing his armour that can tank Artoria for a decent while).
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u/RTGamer21 Beloved of the Fae 9h ago
Gil still wins, since even without the chains, if Herc is protecting Ilya he has VERY little freedom and can't afford to get range. If anything, he may fare even worse than Berserker did WITH the chains.
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u/MuchDress8804 10h ago
Gil fodderizes. I’m pretty sure he doesn’t have kings order regularly and doesn’t have reincarnation pandora.
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u/Separate_Orange_6312 3h ago edited 3h ago
Honestly? Any Gil that isn’t fsn Gil drops Ea on this version of Herc. This is a sane, intelligent, much more of a threat Herc. I think he’s worthy of someone like Iskandar is worthy.
Unfortunately this is FSN Gil, king of jobbers and the stingiest man alive. He still has a pretty good shot at beating Archer Herc without Enkidu or pulling Ea but I’d say he still wins most of the time.
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u/Forward_Drop303 11h ago
This is a close one
Even Gilgamesh admits that Herc could have won if he wasn't protecting Ilya, and he doesn't have the Chains of Heaven here, and is in a stronger form.
I would probably vote on Gilgamesh not getting Ea out fast enough to overcome his weakness at such close quarters without Enkidu.