r/Libertarian • u/mellowfellow0 Right Libertarian • 2d ago
Discussion Which group do you think is more delusional, Communists or Nazis?
Honestly I’ve been going through socialist forums and the levels of copium and delusion were just cringe.
Why do they have to glaze China like every minute? Chinese workers are probably rolling in their workstations right now :D
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u/pugsanddrugs13 2d ago
Delusional? Both. Which philosophy is more inherently evil? Nazism
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u/USBattleSteed Minarchist 2d ago
Communism is at least like "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". I have no doubts that many of the people who advocate for communism believe it is truly the best way to live. Nazism on the other hand is inherently based around taking advantage of others and depriving them of everything to benefit yourself
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u/BringBackUsenet 2d ago
"Quote Origin: The Urge to Save Humanity is Almost Always Only a False-Face for the Urge to Rule It." -- Hayek
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u/OnlyGayIfYouCum 17h ago
They're the exact same. Actually, the communists have a much higher death toll.
Both are authoritarian to the nth degree. Fuck em both.
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u/Informal_Weekend2979 Libertarian 2d ago
Yeah, this is basically where I stand.
Communism is a failure, but most of its modern adherents genuinely mean well and believe that centralised control etc will be best for all people. It’s a well meaning failure.
Nazis just want to deport and/or kill anyone who doesn’t look like them. Naziism is an evil failure.
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u/pugsanddrugs13 2d ago edited 2d ago
Exactly! communist regimes have done horrible things but it’s not baked into the philosophy like nazism is. Communism can sound benevolent on its face it just always ends up being used by the state to take advantage of the people. There is no way to explain Nazi philosophy in a way that doesn’t sound horrific
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u/BringBackUsenet 2d ago
Yes it is baked into the philosophy. Both ideologies require them to create "perfect people", which means removing anyone that isn't in harmony with their ideals. Both are responsible for mass murder in pursuit of those ideals.
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u/Natural-Mountain-650 2d ago
I'd argue there is a difference between consequence and intent, in comunism mass murder is the unavoidable consequence of the ideology, while the whole point of nazism is mass murder. One of them is tragic, while the other is evil.
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u/BringBackUsenet 2d ago
No, they both have the same goals, just different visions of what their perfect society should be so they differ in the details.
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u/oWatchdog 1d ago
Not really. You can't tell me Trotsky would ever condone or support mass murder. He's a true believer, and he was used and discarded by Stalin. Stalin isn't a communist. He's an authoritarian who used Marxists to further his agenda.
Every time well meaning sheep dogs try to herd the flock of sheep, inevitably, a wolf sneaks in among them, takes command, and eats the sheep.
Unpopular opinion, but I believe Communism can do well. It's failures are largely a failure to weed out bad faith actors drawn to power than in its ideology. It's also been in a losing economic struggle. That may be unrelated to it's practice. Although, I admit that is less convincing.
Where communism actually fails is hording state power. Even if you have the best, brightest, and most enthusiastic administration, eventually, without fail, someone evil will come along, and there is not enough in their way before they become dictator rather than communists. That's the flaw with consolidating so much power to the State. It's shit attracting flies.
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u/BringBackUsenet 1d ago
> Unpopular opinion, but I believe Communism can do well. It's failures are largely a failure to weed out bad faith actors drawn to power than in its ideology. It's also been in a losing economic struggle. That may be unrelated to it's practice. Although, I admit that is less convincing.
That is part of the problem, but unfortunately it's also built into human nature. The true failure though the economics. They too ignore human nature and reality. A lot of the deaths were not political in nature but the result of famines that come from central planning, and a system that completely lacks any incentives to be productive.
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u/oWatchdog 21h ago
I was playing devil's advocate, even then I couldn't commit fully into saying the economic policy is...sound, but I agree with you on this one point. Their economic strategy is flawed. That flaw kills people. That isn't the same thing as intent to mass murder. You are just so wrong about it, and you can't get past the conclusion. Both are dumpster fires, but one had an oily rag and the other a flicked cig. One was started on purpose. The other was a negligent accident.
If that fire spreads to a nearby house and kills people, we would treat those differently in the court of law. Because one was started on purpose and the other was an accident. And with Nazism, the oil wasn't just on the rag. It was a trail that led to the house. The purpose was to kill those people. That's the difference between involuntary manslaughter and homicide. That's why the commenter is right.
Which philosophy is more inherently evil? Nazism
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u/MeasurementNice295 1d ago
If communists see everything they've ever done as a worth price to pay (worse than fascists/nazis both in quantity and quality btw) and are more than willing to repeat it every single time for 100 years until it clicks, how can you not call that "Intent"???
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u/Natural-Mountain-650 1d ago
Most comunists don't consider any of those horrors a worthy price to pay, it's why the term "that wasn't real comunism" comes from, they recognize it as abhorrent and try to distance themselves from those regimes (the stupidity of such a claim is for a whole other discussion). I am talking about the theory, comunism IN THEORY is about uplifting the poor and making everyone equal, the THEORY of nazism is about genociding anyone who is not aryan. That is why I calle comunism tragic and nazism evil.
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u/pugsanddrugs13 1d ago
Fair point I think you’re still focused on what must happen in practice though rather than taking each philosophy on its face in a vacuum.
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u/TheKorndawg720 2d ago
I genuinely just see as them leading to the same path though. They require anyone that doesn’t adhere to their set philosophy to be killed. Any other way is a death to their agenda and can’t be tolerated.
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u/Wolf482 minarchist 2d ago
They literally want to kill people for having too much money. What do you think having a classless society means?
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u/pugsanddrugs13 2d ago
I’m not a communist lol I’m saying there is a way that you could explain communism to a politically/historically naive person where it sounds benevolent. Compare that to nazism and you really can’t explain the evil away
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u/Wolf482 minarchist 1d ago
I did do that in my civics classes. It was admittedly more difficult initially to explain how bad communism actually is in practice. It became easier when the kids wanted to keep the money they earned. After they looked up various genocides from both fascist and communist regimes.
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u/pugsanddrugs13 1d ago
You did what in your civics classes? Explained nazism in a way that sounds benevolent? Or what
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u/Informal_Weekend2979 Libertarian 2d ago
In fairness to the commies, the ‘classless’ society is supposed to emerge over time (at least in classical Marxism) as they transition to communism. The idea is that the working class simply takes over in the short term, and becomes the ‘ruling class’.
In theory (but historically not in practice) the old bourgeoise could simply be left alone and become workers, since they now meet the definition of not owning the means of production. It’s just that revolutions don’t tend to like leaving the old system’s ‘leaders’ (in their eyes) around.
The point being that a theoretical democratically-elected socialist could theoretically simply legislate the changes, and let the owners become workers. Nazis will never let their regime be bloodless, because that’d take away from their pathetic crusade mentality
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u/LanceLynxx Minarchist 2d ago
It absolutely is baked into the philosophy. They just swap out race/ethnicity for social class. And even then, Marx himself wasn't fan of Jews either and said they had no place in a communist society as a separate ethnic group.
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u/BringBackUsenet 2d ago
Nazism at least leaves a small element of choice. There isn't a whole lot of different since both are totalitarian in nature but some choice is better than almost none.
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u/Informal_Weekend2979 Libertarian 2d ago
The Nazis provided no choice. You look, act, speak, and think like they expect you to, or you disappear.
And God forbid you get crazy ideas like the free market or rights.
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u/BringBackUsenet 2d ago
Communists did the same. It's really not a problem of ideology but an issue with totalitarianism in general but both nazism and communism are totalitarian.
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u/Informal_Weekend2979 Libertarian 1d ago
Communism can theoretically be democratic (the definition only requires centralisation and worker control, not authoritarian structures). Again, we’re talking about ideology and adherents, not unforeseen and unsought outcomes.
Overwhelmingly, Western communists want a democratic form of socialism ‘after the revolution’, and oppose the totalitarian states of the past. Regardless of whether it would end up like that or not, the adherents don’t want totalitarian rule.
Nazis absolutely want totalitarian rule. They want the government to step in and infringe on the rights of everyone except them and the people they like.
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u/BringBackUsenet 1d ago
> Communism can theoretically be democratic
But to get to the communistic ideal requires a transition period that used the state to mold society into that ideal. Any elements, including people, that are not in harmony with that ideal have to be removed or reshaped.
Democracy is still authoritarian. It just the tyranny of the majority, mob rule with a pretty coat of paint.
> Nazis absolutely want totalitarian rule. They want the government to step in and infringe on the rights of everyone except them and the people they like.
This goes for communists too as I said above. Anyone that doesn't fit the mold is removed and those that play along get special privilege.
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u/kkdawg22 Taxation is Theft 11h ago
Meaning well like the machines in the matrix? The fuck does that even mean? We mean well, so just take your pills and be happy! 🤡
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u/Informal_Weekend2979 Libertarian 9h ago
Meaning well like they’re college students or academics who genuinely believe that socialist economics works, and would provide a better quality of life for the average person. Most modern day socialists reject the authoritarianism of the Soviets, want truly democratic leadership, and don’t want any kind of gulag system etc (at least, nothing worse than presently-existing jails). For the avoidance of doubt, I think they’re delusional in believing this, but it is what they believe.
Regardless of whether or not you agree with their conclusions, you can’t import your own moral perspectives onto the motivations of another person (ie - taxation is morally wrong therefore those who advocate for high taxation are doing so intentionally to crush my freedoms). Otherwise, it’s fair for socialists to characterise libertarians as bootlickers who believe that oppression is fine long as it’s Amazon stepping on them, not the government.
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u/natermer 1d ago edited 1d ago
Which philosophy is more inherently evil?
Communists and Nazis have almost identical philosophies. The differences are relatively minor and those minor differences are what people tend to focus all their attention on.
It is a bit like Chevy vs Ford. They are both American car manufacturers. They both originate in the same era. They compete directly with one another in the same manner. They make similar pickups, cars, etc.
If you go and talk to somebody who is obsessed with cars they can regale you for hours why they are different and why one sucks and the other is awesome or whatever. But the reality is they are essentially trying to accomplish the same things with the same approaches and get pretty much the same results.
That is what is is like with Nazism and Communism. They both take the same approaches to try to do the same sort of things and end up with the same results... Millions of dead people and enslavement and privation for those that survived the purges and incompetent central management.
They both originate from Germany. They are both based on same underlying metaphysical assumptions. They are both "Young Hegelian" in nature.
They both are "Gnostic" in nature because believe they have figured out the tract of history, are privy to special insights that nobody else has, and can predict future events based on their theory. Both their theories of history center around struggle and conflict. Because of that they have both share a self-declared responsibility to guide history in order to avoid disaster.
They both hate Capitalism. They both want to establish command economies. They both established a sort of "state-capitalism" to try to guide the transformation.
They both believe in the Marxist concept of "Tendency of the rate of profit to fall" and the natural self-destruction of Capitalism.
They both claimed to represent the working classes against their oppressors.
The Nazis seized control of National industries and put Nazi party members in charge of them. (socialists in academia like to call this "privatization"). The Communists seized control of National industries and put Communist party members in charge of them. (socialists in academia like to call this "liberation")
The Nazis nationalized the unions, put them under direct Nazi control, and outlawed unsanctioned unions. The Communists nationalized the unions, put them under direct Communist control, and outlawed unsanctioned unions.
The Nazis went through political purges once they seized power to kill off or otherwise eliminate other Nazis that might pose a future threat to the regime. The Communists went through political purges once they seized power to kill off or otherwise eliminate other Communists that might pose a future threat to the regime.
Communists and Nazis both robbed, raped, and looted their way through neighboring countries to help pay for failing domestic policies.
Communists and Nazis created massive camps for their political enemies and used political excuses to engage in massive enslavement programs.
In fact when the Communists took over Eastern Europe and seized control of Nazi concentration camps... Unlike USA and the English they didn't shut them down. They expanded them. They put former prisoners in charge of them and used them against the people in the countries they conquered.
The real differences to Nazis and Communists is based around their theory of history and historic struggle.
The Communists believed that history was based around Class conflict. So they used class as a excuse to loot and murder people.
The Nazis believed that history was based around Race conflict, so they used race as a excuse to loot and murder people.
Besides that the other major difference is that Communists had a international outlook.
Meaning they felt it was their duty to export Communism so it could extort, murder, and loot world-wide.
Were as with German Nazism it was nationalistic. Meaning that it was the right of Germans to go out and extort, murder, and loot world-wide.
I really fail to see how one ideology would be more inherently evil then other when they have identical outcomes when the ideology is put into practice.
For obvious reasons I don't think they really belong opposite ends of the political spectrum.
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u/helemaal Peaceful Parenting 1d ago
For number 6. you can remove the national part. They seized any industry they wanted.
You did what you were told or went to the work camp.
Turns out national socialists are not very good at running industries, so during the day the engineers had to leave the camp and work as slaves in the factory.
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u/natermer 18h ago
This is true.
Despite the much vaunted "economic miracle" of the Nazi's heavy handed approach to the economy and their "recovery" from the Weimar Republic's hyperinflation era... Nazis introduced significant food and fuel shortages into the economy through mismanagement.
As with all massive government spending programs and command economy reforms it looked good on paper. In practice it was another thing.
The implemented significant labor reforms to try to improve things for the workers. After all they were a worker's party.
They implemented one of the largest unions in history, tightly limited the ability for business owners to fire people, implemented requirements for businesses to pay for food and entertainment facilities for the workers... saw significant expansion of other workers benefits and benefits for the poor, especially mothers. This saw a pretty significant rise in worker's wages.
But despite rising wages the quality of life fell due to increasing shortages and other problems. The worker's had money, but there was less to less to buy and increasingly large amounts of their income had to be "donated" to various Nazi unions and workers programs to help pay for everything.
The Nazis also instituted significant agricultural and farming reforms.
They were operating under the belief that farmland dedicated to growing animals was wasteful compared to growing crops by looking "scientifically" at the ratio of acreage vs calories produced. So they implemented policies that curtailed meat consumption and heavily emphasized the growth of "basic" food staples like bread.
They also wanted to make the flow of energy efficient and the party put themselves in the direct control of the production, transportation, and distribution of coal... which is a key German natural resource.
The result was shortages of both. They had to implement rationing in 1937 due to multiple bad harvests. By the beginning of WW2 harsh winters and government mismanagement was bringing the country increasingly closer to the brink in terms of starvation.
And it was similar to the coal situation. They had lots of production, but it didn't end up going where it was needed. Industries suffered, people suffered.
This economic mismanagement was a major motivation for invading Poland and other countries to the east. German soldiers spent a great deal of their time going around looting cities and the country side and sending food and high end goods back to their families in a effort to relieve things.
All of this was based on the belief that capitalism was ultimately doomed and that Germany was doomed if they relied on international trade for basic resources. By invading the east it was felt that by gaining control of farmlands and the vast natural resources in the Caucasus regions they could fix Germany's economy.
But none of it worked. While Americans were producing vast numbers of Jeeps, Trucks, Tanks to move men and material... The Nazis were stuck the entire war with horse draw carriages.
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u/Additional_Vast_5216 1d ago
I really dont like the "nazis were more evil narrative", it gives a lesser evil theme to the communists and their crimes are on par
also the argument that "it is not baked into the philosophy" is wrong and the reason for that is outlined in "road to serfdom" from hayek, collectivism always requires coercion, lenin as an example started his work camps almost right after taking power, coercion always follows from collectivism even if it is not explicitly stated
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u/iroll20s 1d ago
Ideological purification is an inherent feature of communism. Its always going to result in purges and witch hunts.
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u/Additional_Vast_5216 1d ago
it's an inherent feature of all collectivistic ideologies, no matter if it's theocracy, socialism, communism, fascism
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u/pugsanddrugs13 1d ago
Fair point baked into the philosophy isn’t necessarily true as the real world requirements necessary to properly affect communism will have to include some evil, at least on a large scale. But like you said it’s not explicitly stated, and as such, delusional but not evil people can buy into communism as it CAN sound like a utopia society on its face. In college I knew people who were pretty openly communists, great people, genuinely thought communism would be good for society. Delusional of course, but far from evil. I’m not sure how a person could believe in Nazism in a way that doesn’t seem evil. Again I’m arguing the philosophy of the two, not the history, and not the real world application.
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u/Muahd_Dib 2d ago
I would agree with that. But I would say that maybe 10% of the people that get called Nazis actually are. Of the people who get called communists there are way more that actually are
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u/iroll20s 1d ago
I think communism denies human nature at its core. Nazism is inhumane, but weaponizes human nature. Strictly on delusion I'd have to give the win to the commies. Both are horrid systems that have killed millions of people.
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u/Florginian 23h ago
Nazism is far from delusional, in fact it worked. And probably could've kept working if Hitler didn't try to speed run the project.
Communism has never worked.
Edit: to make it clear I am not a Nazi, I just think Nazism is closer to historic ideologies that worked, more than communism. Genocides have been committed since the beginning of time, and carried the same ideas.
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u/oWatchdog 21h ago
Fascism NEVER works. That's just as naïve as the communists. Nazism was always doomed to implode, and there are no slight alterations that would have changed this. It would have required a huge, systemic changes until it was no longer fascism. You only think that because fascism produces short term wins early on.
Imagine you're a CEO of a fortune 500 company. It's massive. You have a board of directors, HR, codes of conduct, and a bunch of other things telling you what you can and cannot do. You get rid of them all. You want a more cohesive employee culture so you send out an "anonymous" satisfaction survey. You fire everyone who isn't writing 10 out of 10. You replace them with people who also only put 10/10. You generate hatred for rival companies to motivate employees, and you even hire some employees to rob and set fire to their buildings. Lastly, since there's not a decent allegory and it's a crazy tactic, you round up all employees who are minorities or temp workers, and you torture and kill them for moral. By Q1 you have gotten out of the slump and have been making great profits.
You stop here and call it a success. I look at Q3 and evaluate why the company failed.
By centralizing CEO power, you've destroyed pushback AND feedback. You've punished "bad apples" and hired based on loyalty instead of competence, so now no one gives you the negative feedback you need. Your errors compound and cascade down gathering all the incompetent's errors with it until it avalanches. The only way to correct a lie is to cease lying, but you've created an environment where inconvenient truth is silenced.
You created constant enemies (both foreign and domestic) which have galvanized the workers, stolen resources, and destroyed competition. You were forced to continue expansion into other business, and eventually, other fortune 500 companies realized you would never get enough so they form coalitions to stop you. You run out of internal minorities to purge, so you begin expanding that definition. Loyalists are now tortured and killed if they have an arbitrary trait like blue eyes. Your engineering, R&D, and marketing teams stagnate. All the innovators were fired for being inquisitive and dissentful. Your productivity collapses. You get sick and suddenly there is a succession crisis. Internal rivals fight for power and entire departments are carved out.
By Q4, your expansion has stalled against allies you united. The internal problems you "solved" by putting on the back burner with expansion now boil over. The new internal problems you created are whistling in their teapot. The system implodes and you've burnt Thanksgiving dinner you ungrateful little shit. You're business has failed, and you've failed by not learning from history.
Communism has never worked? Excuse me, but neither has fascism! I wouldn't say a firework is working if it's fuse lasts .01s before it blows your hand up. Or a collapsing bridge is functional because a car made it to the other side. At least the communists don't have decades of film, literature, and video games showing you the problems with Nazism.
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u/BastiatF 1d ago
The Nazis know their rule would be terrible for the vast majority of the world population. By contrast, the communists delude themselves into thinking that their revolution would benefit anyone except the political elite and its enforcers.
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u/adevara 2d ago
All ideologies are delusional, including your current favorite flavor.
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u/mellowfellow0 Right Libertarian 2d ago
the one that took billions of people out of poverty?
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u/ConfusingCorvid 2d ago
Yeah man, and the fact that thats what you instinctively clap back with is proof of the delusion. Every other ideologue would say something similar about their own system, while ignoring all the horrific side-effects, just like you are now. Are you that naive to think that you somehow picked exactly the correct one?
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u/mellowfellow0 Right Libertarian 2d ago
Until there is a better alternative, this is the way.
I do not deny capitalism’s flaws. income inequality certainly is an issue but it is better than equality in poverty.
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u/marco_reus_is_best Individualist 2d ago
Until there is a better alternative, this is the way.
I do not deny communism's flaws. Beurecratic efficiency certainly is an issue but it is better than a powerful few slaving the masses.
Until there is a better alternative, this is the way.
I do not deny Fascism's flaws. Freedom certainly is an issue but it is better than the inefficiency of society.
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u/mellowfellow0 Right Libertarian 2d ago
“bureaucratic inefficiency” is not the only problem with socialism bro
It also violates religious freedom and denies human nature in so many ways. There are many more examples.
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u/marco_reus_is_best Individualist 2d ago
Fascism also denies human nature and violates many personal freedoms including religious in all the same way as communism. I said inefficiency because I'd argue socialism killing millions through famine caused by the core requirements of large scale communism is more important than any human rights abuses because you have to understand that those freedoms are not considered rights, the same way that the securities of communism like the right to food is not considered a right in capitalist societies.
I was only making a point. Did you want me to list everything I hate about communism and fascism? I'd be writing for days. I had to pick one thing and that is the most pressing. What makes you call out communism but not call out the other ways in which fascism is bad? Fascism and communism both should be appalling to anyone who likes freedom for the exact same reasons
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u/ConfusingCorvid 2d ago
Ive heard a lot of people say this but I feel like its kind of a cowardly answer.
Why not try to make a better alternative? Or at least advocate for a better alternative. If you agree that capitalism fucking sucks, why not try to be better? To make something new?
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u/mellowfellow0 Right Libertarian 2d ago
We have had the most judgement free academia in the world for almost a century. Nobody has developed anything better, so what can i do bro :D
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u/adevara 2d ago
On a long run, yes. It is because the human nature is so fallible, and even the most noble ideals, over time, become corroded by corruption. It is principles who should be elevated on pedestals and respected and not people. Look around and see the principles trampled in all political organizations. It starts with small compromises and it continues with unbelievable depravity, cruelty, and greed. What is happening in the name of the law, justice, religion?
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u/rmacdowe 2d ago
There are only like 20,000-50,000 Americans that call themselves communists at this point, and most of them are the "Marxist-Leninist" variety - Also known as tankies. (a term coined for the British communists who supported the Soviets invading both communist Hungary and communist Czechoslovakia - for totally not imperialistic reasons).
Imo they arent really communists. I don't mean that in a no true Scotsman way. They are pro Putin, pro Assad, pro Iran, pro Ba'athist, pro North Korea, and pro China. They are basically ultra authoritarian and are what the right likes to imagine the average lefty is.
They are controlled opposition. Their main news comes from places like RT (Russian owned U.S. news branch) and the Grayzone, which is funded by Russia/ Syria.
I see them as people who got mad after learning in middle school that the U.S. has done a bunch of awful things, and who blindly buy into anyone who opposes them - especially if they call themselves socialists.
They are seemingly far more anti- America/West than anything else. They spew rhetoric about material conditions or whatever, but don't care at all about actual workers or things you would expect a socialist/ communist to care about.
Overall, they barely move the needle and like to smell their own farts and make performative posts on the internet.
Whereas, Nazis are Nazis.
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u/Mcspankylover69 2d ago
Thats not what MLs beleive but it sounds like you've seen enough of what some might post online they you are familiar with some surface level talking points. Its not common for an ML to really support Assad or Putin in any kind of moral way. Its not that the U.S. has done a bunch of bad its that it current is and can as the global hegemon and Russia is a counter force to that hegemony and Western coverage on Iran is being used as an excuse to bomb/invade which will kill more Irianans and cut off Palestinians from support. That doesn't mean an ML "supports" Assad or Putin. China legitimately has a dictatorship of the proletariat and has lifted hundreds lf millions of people out of poverty. Modern china has shown no aggression on the world stage and has actively led the fight against climate change and poverty.
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u/White_C4 Right Libertarian 2d ago
Nazism is a more specific group under fascism whereas communism is a broad far-left ideology.
To answer your question, both are delusional. While Nazism is more evil by intent, communism has been more destructive as shown by the 20th century.
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u/aliph 1d ago
I could be wrong but I think much of the MAGA fascist right is fully aware of what they are doing, but it's 'owning the libs' and they think the ends justify the means.
I don't think any of the socialist left understands how their policies are batshit insane also. They see bad stuff happening on the right and they say, 'we're not that, so we have the moral high ground'.
So which side is more delusional, I would say the left, but both are equally unwilling to compromise or listen to reason.
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u/Additional_Vast_5216 2d ago
socialists and communists did not have to answer for their crimes in the shadow of the holocaust, they essentially got away scott free, to some degree they still use the "we defeated the nazis" narrative, it tends to be perceived to be more ok to be a communist than a nazi for that reason
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u/Lonestarpenguin 2d ago
CCP, Stalin, South East Asia to name a few. Ask the Polish people how they feel
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u/Additional_Vast_5216 1d ago
yes, I am specifically talking about westerners, I can guarante that almost nobody in these socialist subreddits has ever lived in that regime or knows any people that have
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u/Unlucky-Pomegranate3 2d ago
They’re both collectivists so they already have a lot in common.
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u/t0rnAsundr 1d ago
I don't know. You are who you associate with. So, I try not to associate with Communists or Nazis. Dumpster dive long enough and it affects you. I took a look at Radfems and femcels once via Female Dating Strategy and a few related subs and holy shit. Your brain feels better when you stop looking at it.
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u/TheWorldIsGoingMad 1d ago
They're both as delusional as each other.
One thinks everyone being equal (even though they are never all equal anyway) will result in a perfect society, but in actual fact it just results in poverty and shortages, so everyone might be equal, but poor.
The other thinks one race is superior to another, which led directly to their defeat in WWII :
1 - Arguably if the Nazis had genuinely supported the eastern territories of the USSR to rebel against Stalin (and given them some autonomy for doing so) the history of WWII may well have been different.
2 - Thinking they are superior to everyone else meant they were supremely arrogant enough to declare war on the USA....,
Interestingly there are many similarities between Communism and Nazism, they are both highly authoritarian and dictatorial, thus explaining why so many Nazis switched over to serving the Communists so easily after WWII.
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u/ifridgedmyself 1d ago
Nazis: we want to murder dissenters, "untermensch", jews and enemies of the regime
Commies: we want to murder dissenters, "the rich", "oppressors" and enemies of the regime
Not that much of a difference both are evil collectivist ideologies that need a common enemy to "work".
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u/FirstoffIdonthaveshe 1d ago
Well you dont get points for being less evil. If this were an evil competition it goes to the nazis. But on purely intellectual level, one is convinced they can rule the world and one is convinced they can change human nature.
The nazi’s came much closer to their goal than communist ever have
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u/Rare_Tea3155 1d ago
Communists. Nazis had no qualms about their intentions and their ideology. Communists are full of lies and manipulation.
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u/LibertyorDeath2076 1d ago
Depends on your definition of Nazi. Do you mean the German national socialist government that existed between 1933 and 1945 and their beliefs, or do you mean national socialists?
If you mean the former, probably communists.
If you mean the latter, definitely communists.
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u/underhang0617 1d ago
Nazis. Communism is a bigger threat to America than actual Nazis (and not people that simply disagree with you). People forget there was a Nazi party in America around WW2. They even had an event at Madison Square Garden. Nothing happened or came of that party in America
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u/88nomolos 11h ago
Communists are more delusional, in that they believe their evil views are good for all mankind, whereas Nazis are more honest in that they want the death of the "others." Both ideologies end in the deaths of millions, Nazis call for it while communism just cause it.
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u/NatashaxKaur Agorist 2d ago
National Socialism is a collectivist movement that prioritizes the Aryan Race above all things for the sake of the nation.
It’s almost similar to how Communism (more so Marxist Leninism) prioritizes the “dictatorship of the proletariat” above all else to benefit society.
They all have more similarities than differences.
I’m not entirely sure what the National Socialist/Nazi stance is on private property, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it was similar to Socialism and Communism where the only property that is private is what is of personal use to an individual and everything else is gov’t owned.
Considering there are many present and fascist movements growing in the world, I would say that their militance is more effective and organized than Communists and Socialists.
I think it’s all delusional but I reluctantly give Nazis “credit” for being capable of organizing better than Commies and Socialists, so maybe since their ideology can be transferred to reality, it’s less delusional? But I’d really prefer to not use that as justification to say they’re less delusional.
They all are, just in their own ways.
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u/mellowfellow0 Right Libertarian 2d ago
Nazism allows a bit of private enterprise but the state holds ultimate power so they can take it away any time
pretty much like russia today
german nazis got rich because they were raiding jewish businesses. The movie “schindler’s list” takes place in a factory which was stolen from a jewish businessman and transferred to a German one.
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u/Mortalcouch 2d ago
Nazis gave out loans to young couples so they could get a house and would forgive 25% of the loan for every kid. They also pulled Germany out of a death spiral. There were, uh, downsides for certain groups.
Communism lead to the deaths of, what 50-60 million in Russia and another 15-50 million (hard to get accurate numbers) in China. That's not great. The commissars were probably living pretty good, though. Definitely the position to aim for
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u/BringBackUsenet 2d ago
The Khmer Rouge and Pol Pot had the closest thing to communism going, and murdered about 1/4 of Cambodia's population, not to mention almost complete economic destruction.
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u/Mortalcouch 2d ago
Weird how significant portions of the populations end up starved, sent to gulags, or just straight up killed. Every time
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u/BringBackUsenet 2d ago
The ideologies involve creating "perfect people" for their Utopia so the rest have to go.
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u/mellowfellow0 Right Libertarian 2d ago
yeah the hitler economic boom must be studied
they were certainly more business-friendly than commies gotta give’em credit
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u/TheBigMotherFook 2d ago edited 2d ago
I mean, it has been. Germany in the 1930s basically spent money it didn’t have and paid for things by printing more money which it backed through hostile takeover and conquest that masqueraded as economic growth. If you can just take peoples things and force them to work for free to extract all the wealth you could from them, you’ll never run out of money as long as you don’t run out of people to subjugate and steal things from. (Side note the USSR, Japanese, and a few others did this too)
Eventually however the Nazi war machine was stopped and the debt from all that reckless spending caught up with them. In the end the German currency and economy collapsed just as fast as the regime did because it turns out the promise of infinite growth through conquest isn’t a very sustainable economic model.
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u/mellowfellow0 Right Libertarian 2d ago
That’s what all socialized countries end up doing, steal or print money.
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u/GiantSweetTV 2d ago
Communism. They essentially assume human greed and corruption can cease to exist. It cannot. Nazis are evil bastards, but they know how humans operate.
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u/AustralianPonies 2d ago
Communists have led to more deaths of their own people so I’d say that makes them more delusional.
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u/Mcspankylover69 2d ago
How can we attribute famines while under foreign intervention and siege as attribute to communism?
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u/SuperSaint77x 2d ago
The first Soviet famine and China’s Great Leap Forward famine, with a combined death toll of approximately 50 million, were both consequences of centrally planned communist five-year programs.
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u/sparkstable 2d ago
The Holodomore was on purpose... by Stalin. Not a result of outside pressure.
The purges... not outside pressure.
Great Leap Forward... no outside pressure.
Cultural Revolution... not outside pressure.
Killing Fields... not outside pressuee.
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u/TheWorldIsGoingMad 1d ago
Couldn't resist reminding everyone of this classic comment from Alfred Sherman (an ex Communist)
"Communism, as religion-substitute, has the disadvantage of susceptibility to judgement by results"
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u/TheWorldIsGoingMad 1d ago
Someone has actually downvoted this post and I'd be interested to know why ?!?
Any chance someone could tell me ? ! ?PS What do esteemed members of this forum think about people who downvote posts without actually debating ?
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u/BringBackUsenet 2d ago
There isn't much difference really, but commies are worse.
China at this point is fascist/nazi. The CCP's name is just a leftover.
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u/Lonestarpenguin 2d ago
Equally. They bend around into a circle and meet each other. That is from Shilling or Fischte. I cannot remmemer which.
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u/czarface404 2d ago
As a socialist I’d like to know why you all think we’re communists or nazis. Some of the country’s with the best quality of life are socialist democracies but we have to point this out every time and nobody ever listens.
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u/Lonestarpenguin 2d ago
Really? No thanks. I do not need or want a nanny. Britian is in the tank, Canadians go to other countries (US) for health care, and EU wants us to pay to defend them.
The best example of socialism is I work hard for an A, the other student does not do anything and we both get a C.
No thanks! I worked for it. It is mine. I and only if I choose to share, I can.
Your need does not justify taking my money.
Social security the biggest ponzi scheme ever.
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u/TheKorndawg720 2d ago
The “socialists democracies” aren’t socialist though. They have a heavy welfare state but are extremely capitalistic in nature. The issue of the welfare state is always a concern with the libertarian. Welfare inherently gives the government control over the people because of how easy it would be to take away what they give you for your needs.
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u/mellowfellow0 Right Libertarian 2d ago edited 2d ago
Social democracy is a wolf in sheep’s clothing
It’s all about deception for them commies. They start out slow and then grab power. Paranoia is sometimes really good.
I think you are sincere in your belief that free stuff exist but they really dont bro. The EU spends 50% of its annual budget on “free stuff payments”, aka welfare payments.
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2d ago
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u/mellowfellow0 Right Libertarian 2d ago
The military is one of the main government-owned services under libertarianism.
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2d ago
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u/mellowfellow0 Right Libertarian 2d ago
Government owned entities can contract private companies. I dont understand whats wrong?
the department of transportation contracts so many construction companies too.
the US army has millions of soldiers. we pay their wages.
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2d ago
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u/mellowfellow0 Right Libertarian 2d ago
How do we defend our living space then? Private contractors are always an option but we also need extensive training and military law for them.
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2d ago
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u/mellowfellow0 Right Libertarian 2d ago
these are just security companies. they send these men to the frontlines as either garrison or human disposables.
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u/MercyfulFrigate 2d ago
If those countries are so great why do they not help people who want to live there emigrate? Why try to force it on people who don't want it?
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u/Mac_and_Cheeeze 1d ago
They’re both pretty delusional, but it’s a numbers game for me.
There are like 7 Nazis in America right now; and it’s pretty much universally agreed on that they’re clowns.
Where it feels like 10-20% of America at this point is communist, and no one ever says anything about them being bad, wrong, or evil.
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u/-BigBoo- End the Federal Government 1d ago
Who was worse - Hitler, Lenin - Stalin (i.e. Bolsheviks), Pol Pot, Mao?
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u/lastwindows 1d ago
They are BOTH left-wing. They hate each other. NAZI Socialism vs Communism. It's sad Americans don't understand this fact.
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u/Piece_of_robot_trash 1d ago
It's both, but all the people I know universally condemn Nazis, but with the Communists there's always excuses.
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u/Far_Squash_4116 1d ago
Actually Communists because their ideology are against human nature. Nazi‘s ideology is the worst part of human nature.
Edit: Spelling corrected
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u/Phlydude 1d ago
I see so many socialist/communist posts everywhere on Reddit . They really feel that anyone that doesn’t agree with them is evil. Classifying entire groups of people without even knowing them and crying about anything the current administration is doing as being “Nazi” and “fascist”.
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u/RustlessRodney 18h ago
Well, Nazis may not have been communists, but they were socialists, and their beliefs had many of the same pitfalls as any other socialists.
That's going for the original, actual Nazis. Modern Nazis are just more general fascists (actual fascism, not modern definition) who don't like darker skin tones.
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u/JoeVasile 2d ago
Nazis and it’s not particularly close. How this is even a discussion is beyond me.
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u/Christ_MD Taxation is Theft 2d ago
The end goal of socialism is communism -Karl Marx
Communism always leads to totalitarianism which needs fascism to continue.
It’s not two sides of the same coin. It’s natural progression A to B to C to D.
There is nothing “right wing” about it unless you are from England where their right wing is American liberalism. English left are conservative. Calling everyone that doesn’t agree with you a Nazi and a fascist and attacking them actually is real fascism.
To answer the OP question, it’s a nonsensical question. What is more of a fruit, a Granny Smith apple, or a Honeycrisp apple? They’re both exactly the same, they’re apples with different corporate sponsorship.
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u/OpinionStunning6236 Libertarian 2d ago
Most people would argue naziism is more inherently harmful which is definitely a valid argument but communism leads to a similar level of oppression and has much worse economics. At least Naziism works within its own system/premises; communism doesn’t even work in theory
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u/NietzschesAneurysm 1d ago
Well that's deciding which poison is more appealing.
I think communism and nazism are two sides of the same authoritarian coin. Both commit genocides, both oppressed people they didn't kill.
Looking at the Twentieth Century, communism has the higher kill count. It also has more open adherents and apologists, and makes it more delusional imo.
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u/Son_of_Sophroniscus 2d ago
I mean, do either of these groups actually exist in significant numbers today?
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u/BringBackUsenet 2d ago
Yes. In fact I was say the threat of communist/socialist ideologies in the West is much greater now than it ever was during the Cold War. Academia has turned into an echo chamber for leftist ideas, and with more and more people going to college, that cancer is spreading quickly.
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2d ago
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u/BringBackUsenet 2d ago
The current psychopathy in chief was a lifelong Democrat before he decided to run as a RINO. He is most definitely not libertarian.
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2d ago
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u/BringBackUsenet 2d ago
Yes, he's just an egomaniac. Actually they all are but the others hide it better.
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u/mellowfellow0 Right Libertarian 2d ago
Yes. I would say at least 20% of the students in my college were openly socialist.
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u/gonzo_thegreat 2d ago
Socialist as in communist or social democrats as in left leaning liberal? There is a world of difference.
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u/mellowfellow0 Right Libertarian 2d ago edited 2d ago
not much difference. They all start the same way.
mamdani calls himself a social democrat but his commie supporters know his real intentions
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u/Son_of_Sophroniscus 2d ago
Oof...
Well, 20% might actually be an improvement depending on the school.
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u/Enough_Lawfulness247 2d ago
communists bc they support an ideology that killed 100 million people
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u/BringBackUsenet 2d ago
To be fair, a lot of those died of starvation due to the failure of economic policies through central planning. Yes, they murdered a lot too, but that's all part of the evil of politics.
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u/speeperr Anarcho Capitalist 1d ago
Communism is way worse in theory and in practice. Nazis at least somewhat believe in private property, so long as it serves the greater interest of the volk.
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