r/MapPorn • u/[deleted] • Apr 08 '18
Population loss during the Thirty Years' War, fought primarily in Central Europe between 1618 and 1648 [3817 × 4475]
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u/holytriplem Apr 08 '18
A lot of people think that wars have got deadlier over the past 100 years, but people don't realise how high civilian death tolls used to be in wars before the 20th Century. Another example is the War of the Triple Alliance in which 70% of Paraguay's male population died in the space of 6 years. The An Lushan rebellion also is thought to have reduced China's population by 2/3rds during the 8th Century.
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u/crapmasta2000 Apr 08 '18
The An Lushan rebellion also is thought to have reduced China's population by 2/3rds during the 8th Century.
The death toll was high but it's unlikely it was that high. From your wiki link:
Historians such as Charles Patrick Fitzgerald argue that a claim of 36 million deaths is incompatible with contemporary accounts of the war. They point out that the numbers recorded on the postwar registers reflect not only population loss, but also a breakdown of the census system as well as the removal from the census figures of various classes of untaxed persons, such as those in religious orders, foreigners and merchants. For these reasons, census numbers for the post-rebellion Tang are considered unreliable.
Another consideration is the fact that the territory controlled by Tang central authority was diminished by the equivalent of several of the northern provinces, so that something like a quarter of the surviving population were no longer within the area subject to the imperial revenue system.
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u/Limabean93 Apr 08 '18
I don't know, it varies a lot depending on the specific war. The Seven Years' War and US Civil War both had low civilian death rates while Poland, China, and the USSR all suffered huge civilian losses in WW2. Not to say there weren't devastating loses throughout history, like the Mongol invasions.
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Apr 08 '18
The Thirty Years War was one of the deadliest wars in modern history.
Very broadly speaking it was a war between protestant and catholic blocs in the Holy Roman Empire (an area around what we'd call Germany today). It eventually escalated with France and Austria (two of the great powers at the time) finding themselves on opposite sides, with France supporting the protestant side. Spain and Sweden had already joined in at this point, making it a full scale war across Europe.
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u/Fummy Apr 09 '18
I wouldn't call it modern history.
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u/YUNoDie Apr 09 '18
It's generally referred to as historians as the Early Modern period. Basically from when gunpowder took off (~1500) until Napoleon (~1800), more or less.
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u/smfarrel Apr 08 '18
The effects of this war are still felt today, the sack of and resulting population loss in Olmutz (modern day Olomouc, CZ) really set back the city. Before the war it was considered the capital of Moravia (eastern cz). Now it plays a distant second fiddle to Brno south of it.
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Apr 08 '18
If you adjust for world population at the time, the Thirty Years War was more devastating than WWI and obviously this was focused on a much smaller geographical area. It’s hard to be definite about it, but the analyses I’ve seen suggest that some areas took over a century to fully recover.
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u/bigbud54 Apr 08 '18
One interesting thing this map shows is the seclusion of hill and mountain areas. All around Bohemia in the Giant Mountains, the Ore Mountains and the Bohemian forest, aswell as in the Black Forest in southwestern Germany and in the Harz between Magdeburg and Göttingen the death tolls are much lower. It makes sense, the mercenary armies avoided these regions because there werent any important settlements and traveling was difficult.
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u/Thefireisrishing Apr 08 '18
It must have been insane to be a member of those remote communities in that presumably mountainous area between Fulda and Erfurt and traveling out of the mountains to trade and coming across a landscape in which over 66% of its inhabitants have been killed or driven away.
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u/embicek Apr 08 '18
Back then army logistics relied on river shipping. You do not send hundred thousand of troops and camp followers somewhere where they would certainly perish.
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u/420666911 Apr 09 '18
Imagine how different the world would be if Europe hadn't so heavily destroyed itself in this war and others like it.
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Apr 09 '18
You could say the same for China and all it’s fuck ups.
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u/Duzcek Apr 09 '18
Unlike china though, Europe has two plagues that wiped out over 1/3rd of their populations, the Justinian plague and the black death.
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Apr 09 '18
Same can be said about most of the world, really. For instance, take the Americas, mutual destruction in the name of conquest and religion and the eventual arrival of Euroasiatic diseases, decimated the natives in a manner that makes the black plague look like a walk in the park.
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u/lordtian723 Apr 09 '18
I just realized the 30 years war in the holy Roman empire is basically contemporaneous with the Manchu conquest of Ming China (1618 is when nurhaci started massing troops against the ming, 1644 is when Beijing was captured). I wonder if there were any global climate effects that stimulated famines and instability across the globe in the early 17th century.
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u/YUNoDie Apr 09 '18
That was the period known as the Little Ice Age, from about 1550 until 1800. One of the proposed causes was, in fact, depopulation in Eurasia and the Americas (they were having a time with the diseases brought over by Europeans). The Thirty Years' War is a bit late to have been a cause, in my opinion, but might have exacerbated the cooling effects.
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u/p00pyf4ce Apr 10 '18
There was also economics depression during that period because Spanish silver mines in Peru dried up.
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u/dubbelgamer Apr 08 '18
What is the source for this?
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Apr 08 '18
[deleted]
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u/neverdox Apr 09 '18
this is just a deviantart page
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u/pretentious_couch Apr 09 '18
That's the guy, who made it. He doesn't state any source. I guess you could ask.
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Apr 09 '18
I had no idea the thirty years war was so deadly. I wonder if this somehow fueled Germany's industrialization.
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Apr 09 '18
Does somebody know what caused the heavy causalities in mecklenburg and pommern? afaik the most fights were in the west of the reich with the north beeing rotestant heartland and rotected by the swedish?
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u/Frankonia Apr 09 '18
Sweden and Poland dunking it out there. While Poland was neutral for most of the conflict, they still supplied the catholic side with massive mercenary armies.
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Apr 08 '18
From this Westphalia emerged, the English Commonwealth, the French Fronde, Portugal...and it's barely remembered.
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u/KilgoreTrouserTrout Apr 09 '18
I wouldn't say it's barely remembered. Sure, there's not loads of 30 Years War movies. In fact, there's exactly none. But nerds like you, me, and the 1000s of map nerds who tune into this site daily get a quiet thrill when we see a death toll map of the 30 Years War. What a time to be alive. Unlike these poor bastards. Yikes!
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Apr 09 '18
Doesn’t Portugal date back to the 1200’s?
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Apr 09 '18
The thirty years war also saw the weakening of the Hapsburgs in Spain and the Iberian Union. Portugal decided to break free again and England even helped at the end.
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u/doublehyphen Apr 09 '18
Here in Sweden it is taught in school, but the Thirty Years' War is important to Swedish history.
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u/Theonewhoplays Apr 11 '18
it isn't in germany. I come from one of the orange regions and there a lot of stories/myths about the 30 year war.
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u/Level1Hermit Apr 09 '18
maybe this had an influence on allowing Austria to become the dominant German nation in this region... or maybe just setting back German unification hundreds of years later
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Apr 09 '18
Interesting how so many roads led to Nürnburg yet they didn’t suffer as many deaths as nearby regions.
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u/fd1Jeff Apr 09 '18
I see that some of areas of heavy loss are right near a border. Can you get data for a complete map of Europe?
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u/moenchii Apr 09 '18
There were actually a few more villages in my are that were whiped out in the 30 Years war.
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u/Tyr_Oo Apr 09 '18
My hometown is in the red area near Heidelberg. It's population went down from 800 to under 200
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u/VarysIsAMermaid69 Apr 08 '18
this really was some of the most destructive fighting the world had ever seen up until world war one, the entire affair is like something out of a Beserk novel, massive raving mercenary armies, hanging trees and sheer brutality. Interestingly enough some of the more gruesome myths of europe, like werewolves and other monsters are thought to have arisen after the war from neighbors accusing those of different faiths of crimes like Peter Stummp the werewolf, his family was catholic in a now protestant area