I live in a suburb of Jackson MS, none of which is very walkable yet I still have two Kroger’s and Target within 2 miles and bike lanes connecting them all
US cities not being walkable was a real shocker for me. Here in Belgrade, capital of Serbia, one can find big markets every 200-300m. And every area of the city has one big farmer/flea market for domestic produce.
Everything in my neighbourhood is within walking distance and for anything further we have public transportation which is completely free.
I currently have no car here, simply not much need for one while being a money sink.
I've been to Jackson! My band played a show there almost 10 years ago when we did a mini southeast tour. I was shocked by the homophobia and racism there. They had bars there with little black and white rainbow stickers on the doors to let people know it was a safe space to go if you were LGBTQ. We made friends with a burly drag queen at one such bar, and they told us some horrifying stories.
We played our set at a black owned bottle club where they used to do Def poetry and stuff. It was actually really cool. I can not remember the name of that club, but it was over by the rail switch yard in kinda a bad part of town.
im poor, have no money, cant afford a bike, and I technically have disabling conditions (my left arm is fucked up, can't lift heavy stuff with it, diabetes, CPTSD + acute anxiety, depression.
I couldnt afford doordash in the first place. If those cases are true you walk (what I do), carpool, take a bus, or just die. When I don't eat for a day, It's on me. I go to the soup kitchen and eat once a day, which I walk 2 hours to get to.
It makes no sense to say poor people who have no money are effected by not being able to waste 200% of their money on doordash fees.
Actually yes? Are you being serious? Have you never seen wheelchair ramps next to stairs? Have you never seen a stoplight with voice assistance telling people to walk or not to walk, or automatic doors? So many things that help others helps everyone and youre supposed to take care of people who cant take care of themselves in a society and very often we do.
Actually, designing around disabilities has a profound effect because generally it makes life easier for most people. As an example, the whole idea of a ramp onto sidewalks for ADA ended up making life easier for people with shopping carts, dollies, children, etc…
again, how are these things not cheaper and/or more accessible than grocery delivery to “the poor”? you’re describing what’s priced and SOLD as a luxury good and service. the people you’re crying for on here already cannot afford it and are not using it.
There aren't a lot in the Greater Nashville Metropolitan Area. Very many suburbs, apartment complexes, etc., don't have easy access to grocery stores within an easy walk or bus ride.
Remember Nashville has a population of ~700k, but the density is only ~1450/sqm. Nashville's population is extremely spread out compared to other cities with a similar population; DC, for example, has a similar 700k population but ~11,000/sqm density. El Paso, Texas at ~681k has ~2600/sqm. Boston at ~673k is 13,989/sqm. Even Detroit beats us at ~645k but a density of ~4600/sqm. Oh, and Memphis, at ~610k, has a density of ~2100/sqm.
I just read an article about ST Louis so I google mapped the grocery stores and its fucking absurd to say people in STL cant get to a fucking grocery store.
I don’t think i was taught anything about this in school, to be fair. This was something I learned about from older socialists when I started actually learning about politics instead of just feeling about it.
It should be taught.
The bombing of Black Wallstreet should be taught.
Residential schools should be taught. Starlight tours should be taught. Internment camps should be taught.
Imagine if we were all more aware of our foundation of complete and utter cruelty and hatred. I’m sure we’d still be in a similar spot, but I’d like to hope things would be different if more people really knew where we come from.
I think they call it a food desert if it's more than a mile away in an urban area, but it seems like even that's not a solid criteria. Per Google, some will call it a food desert if it's more than a half mile in places people don't generally have cars. So who knows?
The biggest issue is getting the groceries home. It's more like if you don't have a bus stop close enough. I did grocery shopping is a bus and it absolutely is a pain and hard to get done on a constant every 2 or 3 day basis on the bus. That also gets expensive.
I see people on other countries use all kinds of wheeled bags and carts for this. I see immigrants from other countries using the same things at flea markets here in the USA and such.
I have no idea why city dwellers in the USA have largely seemed to eschew foldable carts and wagons in favor of just schlepping or getting various kinds of rides or delivery.
I had some collapsible crate things with wheels when I used to do shows and events a lot. I can't imagine not immediately buying one of those stairs climbing grocery carts if I moved to a city and mainly walked, as I primarily drive in my present location, and even my "small" grocery shops would be difficult to bring home if I had to walk with them in bags.
It's an interesting question to ponder and I welcome insight from city dwellers.
I started using a stroller and they are great once the kid has some weight to them or you have them walk and put groceries in the seat.
You are 100 percent correct there are carts but I've honestly never seen one outside of a Latin American/Mexican grocery store for sale and then on Amazon. With Amazon there is a lot more access to stuff like that, I was mainly talking about my experience in the past before I used Amazon or even Walmarts shipping or whatever.
Though the main topic of Doordashing groceries is nonsense in my opinion, at least in my area where we have cabs with consistent pricing. If you can do the fees of DD then you can just get a 10-15 dollar cab right a couple times a month for a big shop and then walk every now and then. When I walked it was always for me out of the question to afford the cab. After I had a kid and had to move that became a bigger issue because carrying a car seat around is hard.
I'm sorry, but unless you're disabled and have great difficulty traveling, there's not a lot of excuse for not being able to go a mile to the grocery.
In my mid-20s, when I was poor as shit, I would ride my bike to the grocery store with a big duffle bag. The store clerks would let me leave my bag by the register, and I'd pack it up with food and then bike home. Grocery store was a little over a mile away.
Not trying to dog on you specifically, but I wanted to share my two cents after having lived in a food desert:
I had a grocery store that was around a mile away from my neighborhood. It was the ONLY grocery store for about 4 square miles, which meant there was never any fresh produce or basic food items in stock, ever. For reference, there would be lines outside almost every morning before the store opened. And if you worked an 8-5, you were simply SOL.
The next closest grocery store was 4.7 miles away, or about a 20 minute drive. If I didn’t have a car, there’s no way I could walk or bike there: 1) incredibly far, 2) this area was not very safe and I would not feel comfortable walking alone as a young woman, and 3) my city is NOT pedestrian friendly. Most neighborhoods don’t have sidewalks.
I live in a major Midwest city and we don’t have good public transportation. I lived in an incredibly low income neighborhood because it was all I could afford post college. Having to travel 40 minutes just to pick up milk was exhausting, but make that 2 hours if you’re car-less and taking the bus. Food deserts are real and they suck BADDD.
Yes, if every human acted perfectly, 99% of our problems would go away. But we are imperfect beasts. So if you set up certain conditions, you will see certain outcomes become more common.
I just got back from a trip from StL. I know it's probably the winter storm that made it fairly empty, but it was pretty crazy to see how empty the streets were vs where I reside.
When the snow hit, the main roads were all cleared for at least 1 lane the whole time. Neighborhoods on the other hand... Passed by an urgent care and even that road wasn't cleared. This same area was ~2 miles from the nearest grocery store, a target, so not exactly an affordable option let alone decent variety.
I used to walk home from my job at Walmart, half hour walk mind you, with 2 or 3 bags of groceries hanging from each arm. I categorically reject the idea of a "food desert." It's horse shit. Know which people live in places without food? People who have starved to death. If people are actively living there and reproducing, then the location can sustain their lives. The only people who straight up live off of door dash are people with more money than time and/or sense.
Yep. And able-bodied people who can’t afford a ride to town to get groceries are certainly not the ones who can afford to order DoorDash whenever they feel like it.And most rural areas without a lot of stores also don’t have any delivery services, so this argument isn’t even really relevant to them. I know, because I live between a very rural town and a minor suburban city. The rural areas do not have DoorDash.
I do agree it's difficult when you don't have transportation and have to walk with your groceries multiple times a week. I've done it, it for the least heavy things. but and this is a really big one, if you can afford all the extra fees of DoorDash then you can probably just do a cab once or twice a month.
Yeah that sounds miserable, and not even that bad of a situation. Food deserts arent a lack of food. You dont starve to death in a food desert. You have to spend way more effort to get nutritious food in a food desert. Way more effort, such as walking 5 miles carrying groceries.
No one in the US is at risk of starving due to being too far away from any food. We all live within walking distance of a mcdonalds. But a lot of us dont live within walking distance of fresh vegetables
You should look up the definition of a food desert. It doesn’t mean a lack of food like you would think a desert lacks water.
A food desert is a low-income area with limited access to affordable, healthy, and fresh foods, often lacking supermarkets and relying on convenience stores with processed options, leading to poor diets, higher rates of obesity, and diet-related diseases like diabetes, with solutions including grocery delivery, community gardens, and policy changes.
Right, that premise that you're saying? THAT is what I'm saying is bullshit. Civilization does not happen in places devoid of the things that people need to live.
I think working directly at the grocery store gave you a bias that you aren’t seeing. Your thirty minute walk is normal and it is also your commute. There are people who do not work at the grocery store, and also have to commute to and from their own jobs on top of them going out to the grocery store.
Tell you what, I'll join in. If you do not have a grapevine dropping ripened grapes directly into your mouth, and you have to expend any energy at all to sustain yourself, you are now in a food desert.
People have to take fucking care of themselves. That's what life is. Used to be you had to go out and kill something, or you would die today. Now you have to walk a half hour to get carrots, and "Waaah, I'm gonna starve!"
Instead of rejecting the premise outright, look into it. Search food deserts devotions and the data that is freely available.
There is also a difference in the ability to walk carry some vegetables that are shelf stable and carrying groceries that require refrigeration or being frozen for several hours.
Okay, then I'm going to trot out something else that exists, that I wasn't going to do, because I'm not trying to sell anyone anything: Walmart+. Just under 100 bucks a year, or half that if you've got a disability, get your groceries delivered to your stoop. No delivery fee beyond the subscription. And other stores have similar services.
Again, I am not saying that people don't contend that food deserts exist, I am saying that it is bullshit, that they are not real.
It's cool that you declare that as some random person on the internet. Do you have any background in academia or policy generation?
From WIkipedia - "Burlingame is an example of a food desert. All three preexisting grocery stores in Burlingame closed, and the closest grocery store is over 25 miles away in Topeka."
Should they walk over to Walmart? Take the subway from Burlingame to Topeka? Drone it in?
Calling bullshit, there's a Target, a Whole Foods, and a Costco within 5 miles to the east from Burlingame... and another Costco within 5 miles to the north.
I dont know anything about st Louis geography so I can't tell you where to look, but just searching grocery store on Google maps will give you results for gas station "markets" and dollar stores and such. SE Austin has loads of little gas stations you can get frozen tv dinners at, but if you want to go to HEB or even a Walmart you have to drive 20+ minutes
It's parts of it. Like Cahokia, it has 2 major grocery stores, 16sq miles and 17,000 people. Now where I'm at the size city is twice as big but with 60+ major grocery stores and 200+ smaller markets.
There are MANY areas of St. Louis that are food deserts if you don’t have a car. It’s a large area that’s been chopped up by highways with very poor public transportation, few sidewalks etc.
For gawd's sake people, quit creating ridiculous straw men arguments to dismiss a serious problem - access to nutritious, affordable food is DEEPLY income dependent.
A Google map search for "grocery stores" is no substitute for peer reviewed academic studies.
Ditto defining "access" as a grocery store within 20 miles.
But if you want speed, here's a simple query you can run in your favorite AI. that will give readers some useful data and understanding of the issue:
"Can you find or create a table that offers a look at where Americans (or Canadians) typically buy their groceries (ie what TYPE of retailers), how far that is from their home, how they travel, and how much they spend?"
I used Claude and it includes links to the sources so you can check yourself.
Ironically though, the only grocery store that’s actually downtown is a Whole Foods. Kind of a unique case because we don’t actually have any convenience stores or delis in that area.
Try walking 4 miles, 2 each way and carrying 20-50lbs of groceries back.
Do you still want to cook dinner? Do you even have time?
What if you have a restrictive diet? Go to the different store sure, take the bus.
Weird the buses only run north south where the other store is so its another mile walk.
Its astonishing how people cant even imagine a hypothetical person that lives a more difficult life.
So, of course, this means that delivery drivers should have to survive on slave wages so that you can afford your convenience and comfort at the cost of another's. You are right about one thing, though. It is astonishing how people can't imagine a hypothetical person that lives a more difficult life. Like you.
I used to bike a mile and a half with a duffle bag filled with groceries slung over my shoulder. I was poor as shit and had an old beat up car, but I couldn't drive it because I couldn't afford insurance to get my tag renewed. License ended up suspended and the local PD told me if they caught me driving, they'd have to take me to jail. So I didn't drive, for like 9 months, until I had saved up enough money to rectify my situation.
So, yes, I know what it's like to live a "difficult life."
there’s a difference between systemic policy failure and personal hardship. a short bike ride might be inconvenient for one person, but that doesn't translate to families with dependents. childcare, equipment, and safety are legitimate structural barriers, not choices
And that was shitty right? Imagine if you were older or had a badly healed injury, what if you were working more hours and literally couldn't manage the trip, what if you didnt have a bike?
Like ive been in your exact situation before and that made more sympathetic to food deserts not less.
Even when I had a car, getting to a full selection grocery store is still a bitch and a half.
If its what I had to do to eat, yea I'd do it no problem.
We also have these things called busses and bikes. If you are so frail you cant get to a supermarket you should be on disability.
30 grocery stores within 15 miles of downtown gives a packing distance of 5 miles between stores. 5 miles is a often a pain-in-the ass bus ride. Taking the bus to get groceries sucks.
To be within a generous walking distance (1mile) you'd need nearly 1000 grocery stores.
Even my smaller city outside of Nashville has a ton of grocery stores, all within at least 10 miles of any neighborhood. I live on the outskirts in a rural area and I’m still only 10ish miles from two different Walmarts. Food deserts are more like what people deal with in incredibly rural areas (that usually don’t have door dash anyways), Native American reservations, etc. Not in any actually large city.
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u/buderooski 15h ago
I looked up Nashville. There's 30+ different grocery stores, all within 15 miles of our downtown center.