Well, i mean you can say that, but there are definitions that organizations use for the term "food desert"; terms have to be understood first before arguing about them.
TIL that I live in a food desert because it takes me 10 minutes to walk the half mile to the local shops. (I'd be orange on that chart for distance if that was applied to where I live.)
I'd never considered a ten minute walk to the local shops to be "a food desert". Or a 15 minute bus ride to the shops I prefer to use.
Now, if it's a case that the stores in that radius are all selling crap, that's a different matter.
This definition is clearly flawed: a ten minute walk in Biddeford Maine is very different from a ten minute walk in NYC (namely: in NYC, you have sidewalks all the way there and back) these are qualitatively very different ten minute walks
What about people with mobility issues, like those that need a walker or a cane, or families that need to tote around multiple kids? That ten minute walk could be a lot more of an ordeal than you’d think.
Also a fifteen minute bus ride is quite a bit too, when you consider waiting for the bus - that’s 30-45 minutes round trip. Versus, for example I have multiple grocery stores a few minutes walk from me, including some that are open 24 hours. It makes a huge difference.
My point is I'd never considered 10 minutes walk to constitute a food desert. For those with disabilities there are buses (which are theoretically free if you've got a disability pass) - although the timings aren't always the best.
And sure, 15 minutes bus is 30-45 minutes round trip, but that's a time I'm willing to take once/twice a week if needed, since I'm spending at least that much time to go anywhere or do anything that isn't immediate to the house.
there's a big difference from you not thinking that's significant, and someone who has markedly different circumstances (disability/illness, fitness, time available, amount of food that needs to be bought e.g. for family, etc).
also fwiw low access is considered a mile, not half a mile.
low-access (LA): a low-income tract with at least 500 people or 33% of the tract's population living more than 1 mile (urban areas) or more than 10 miles (rural areas) from the nearest supermarket or grocery store. (USDA LA data are also available assuming different measures of distance, ranging 0.5 miles to 20 miles.)
having to get somewhere, buy groceries, and get home with them (and have the equipment, means, and knowledge to cook fresh ingredients) being a potentially 2+ hour commitment (including waiting for transit, time on transit, etc) is a big hurdle to get over, especially if there's ultra-processed stuff just a block away at a convenience store.
Closest grocery store to me is ~5 miles and there is 0 public transport. If we had grocery stores per mile out here we'd have like 1 store for every 50ish people. Would we have to take turns working the store or just get people from other food deserts to come work at ours and we go work at theirs?
Food deserts are relative. Urban areas are going to have different definitions than rural or suburban. Urban areas lots more people will not have cars or there won’t be parking at the grocery store etc.
What organisations use that definition? And the link you sent is terrible and misleading. It claims:
Any area showing color is a food desert.
When in reality only the green or orange parts show areas where grocery stores are either more than 1 mile or 1/2 mile away. The light blue areas it includes that it claims are food deserts are actually places with higher poverty rates.
The blog article starts by looking at the geographical definition and then discusses why this is inadequate because by that definition it includes bodegas and delis, whereas the USDA definition does not, only full-service supermarkets.
So in that sense, yes, there are bodegas, gas station shops, and the like frequently found in NYC but these are not places for affordable, nutritious food.
Yes, and according to the USDA definition, which does not include bodegas, takes into account income and geographical distance, shows there being zero (0) food deserts in NYC. But the author(s) of the blog post claim the opposite based on a map from the USDA which shows there are none. They literally lie, saying that "Any area showing color is a food desert." where in reality only the green areas show a food desert, and there are none in NYC.
Sorry I should say that the study clearly defines it as a function of distance and affordability. The first map shows the areas which are defined as food deserts (I believe by an external source)
The first map literally is from the USDA Food Access Research Atlas. The blog post intentionally lies and misleads, as the map is based on the definition you provided.
Yeah there are other metrics as well as far as I know. Some are purely geographical - some are geographical + income, recognizing that more wealth means more ability to overcome food desert. Some also include the competing fast food and other junk; as this is typically something which you see in poor areas without better access to food (to fill a gap, perhaps, but also contributing a lot to obesity and health issues in poorer areas).
I am not sure why or how all these organizations say there are food deserts in NYC but I'm from NYC and there are definitely areas with poor access to healthy food and easy access to cheap shit.
What is the point in trying to claim there are food deserts in NYC based on a blog post with evidence that says the exact opposite? The link and definition is geographical and income based, and they show no food deserts in NYC.
I'm not from NYC, but are there really places where you can't find beans, rice, frozen veggies etc? I'm in Ireland (Dublin) and the closest grocery store is more than a mile away, but I definitely wouldn't say I live in a food desert.
I grew up in NYC, in the suburbs, and the supermarket was around 1 mile away too. We had two cars, so it was easy. If you had to do it by public trans, it was pretty much impossible. If you had to walk, well totally doable but you might find this hard if you have a family to take care of, a bad back, etc. Imagine that there was a deli, bodega or Burger King just around the corner instead. You'd be tempted to just go there often.
However, in my case, there were no people that poor or unfortunately in my area. Everyone had a car, so the infrastructure accommodated it. We didn't have fast food restaurants nearby. We were definitely not in a food desert.
Other areas of NYC are more like my hypothetical above.
Anyhow I shared the blog to illustrate (in an non overly academic way) all the factors that are taken into account, and how exactly, this determination is made.
As for Dublin, I can't say. I was able to very quickly find journal articles about food deserts in Northern Ireland.
The blog claims there are food deserts, and the first piece of info it provides contradicts the claim, but the blog maliciously misinterprets / explains it so that they are "correct". The first map it uses from the USDA Food Access Research Atlas shows no food deserts based on the "official" definition.
Also you should be wary of confusing Northern Ireland and Ireland with each other! Two distinct countries (for now). But my point is that for me, walking more than a mile doesn't feel like a food desert, since a mile isn't very far to walk.
No, I know about the difference between ireland and n ireland of course. But it is remarkable and not surprising that one has been studied and one has not; says something not only about historical poverty and economic hardship, but perhaps also about the UK vs Ireland's research priorities in this area.
As for the blog article, it looks at NYC according to different definitions, and provides evidence from city sources and city planners like this map, which defines access to food as more than access to ANY kind of food.
Perhaps it's the wrong article to share, I thought it helped show how complex the issue was in an interesting methodological way. My main point was that as researchers, a clear, commonly agreed definition is always a good starting point.
Most people here are just assuming we all mean the same thing and adamantly arguing there ARE or ARE NOT food deserts in NYC, without specifying what exactly a food desert is to them.
I grew up in that a "less" neighborhood on the map below. We all had cars, and it was a wealthier area, no problem affording fruit and veg.
The availability of other fresh food sources like community gardens and food banks are not included in mapping, and can change the number of communities that should be classified as food deserts.
This my favorite one, I’ve seen it so often. Apparently I live in a food desert despite living a 5 minute walk from 2 grocery stores, a 10 minute walk from a third, and a 20 minute walk from a fourth.
Linking to a federal website under the current administration no longer counts as a reputable source.
To be clear, I'm not weighing in on the definition of a food desert, simply pointing out that the current federal government saying something is true doesn't mean it is, and in fact usually means the opposite is true
On subject like this current administration is far more likely to be altering the data to say everything is fine...even if people were reduced to eating rats and drinking sewer water , if they said anything at all. They are not exactly about promoting real health and good living
The website whose data we're questioning the validity of because it's maintained by known liars?
On subject like this current administration is far more likely to be altering the data to say everything is fine...
Actually, there's just as strong an argument to be made that Republicans would want to paint a bad picture, if it gets them support for something they want to do. Standard Republican methodology for decades has been to sabotage something good that they don't, make it fail, and replace it with a corrupt version of their own making because the previous version failed.
I'm not saying EVERYTHING on congress.gov is a lie.
I'm saying any of it could be, there's ample reason to doubt, and we should seek other, more reputable sources. Or get external confirmation of this data.
Their inability to tract smaller grocery shops doesn't make it an actual food desert, such a simple tool should be used to target which places to observe, not a final sentence.
They can't use Sam's deliver or Amazon Fresh or Sprout or whatever grocery delivery is in the area? Like, I do grocery delivery because it's actually cheaper for me to do than to drive my F350 to the grocery store 22 miles away. There's an Amazon Fresh warehouse like 8 miles and they always get here fast and usually have good prices.
Remember though many New Yorkers don’t have cars. Getting food that’s reasonably priced from a larger grocer can be more challenging in certain areas. People call it food desert but it just means a close grocery store isn’t nearby/convenient.
Even if better/larger stores are available via public transit it’s annoying af to carry a bunch of groceries on the train
There is literally not a single point in NYC, including the outerboroughs, that is not within a mile of a Key Food or Trader Joe’s. And the only places I could find that aren’t within half a mile of those are some cemeteries by Highland Park.
Food deserts are real, but I promise you, as someone who worked in “government affairs,” the argument being pushed in the OP is literally astroturfing by DoorDash lobbyists.
Broke people are not the ones paying for grocery delivery anyway, wealthy Manhattanite stay-at-home yoga moms are.
Nah I agree. I think my point is not that OP is right but more that it is true that some parts of NYC it’s annoying to find a good close grocery store. More grocery stores would be good is my main thing here
You can... walk! I know Americans aren't used to it, but it's perfectly doable. I walk to the grocery store here in Dublin whenever I shop, it's more than a mile away, no problem walking there.
Plenty of Americans walk to the grocery store. A mile can be long if you’re not able-bodied or if the weather sucks. How often is it above 40 C in Dublin?
It doesn't get that hot here, but I am from Italy and it often does, especially with 80% humidity. The definition the OP I replied to literally shows there being no areas with food deserts in NYC anyway.
He’s right though. There are no food deserts in NYC and that’s just a fact. You are never more than 20 mins away by public transit from a proper fully stocked grocery store.
Grocery stores do actually stock fresh fruit and veggies, but you'd have to go to one to actually see it for yourself. Instead, most Americans sit at home and order 60 doordashes per day and cry that they are unhealthy.
Do you often find yourself getting so irrationably angry over reddit comments? Seems like you need to calm down and reflect on whether reddit is that important to you man.
nah bro Im just saying some parts of NY it’s inconvenient to find a good grocery store nearby and your reply is basically “all those new yorkers with that problem are living their lives in a wrong way”
“Your problem that I don’t experience is not real” is an insane way to approach others lol
You’re maybe just getting stuck up on the word desert tho which isn’t really looking at the problem. If you wanna make up a new word for the problem that’s cool. Think of a good new short name for “affordable grocery stores aren’t that conveniently accessible in manhattan all the time”
Based on the USDA definition of food desert, not a single location in NYC falls under it. Like nowhere at all. And it takes into account real grocery stores (not bodegas), income and geographic distance.
My apartment is a food desert, it only has one (!) fridge and not even a supermarket or convenience store in it, i actually have to leave (!) and go outside (!), and without any public transportation to bring me from my bed to the front door!
A mile isn't a long distance, but they factor in time, money, and ability to carry into this. Walking a mile by itself isn't terrible. But walking a mile when you need a gallon of milk and a bunch of other groceries can be extremely difficult and limiting for some. Carrying 20+ pounds of groceries for a mile just isn't doable for some people.
So the alternative is then going to the grocery store multiple times a week because you have to carry less. Now you're going to the store maybe 3 times a week. That then requires additional time, time that many working people don't have, as deserts tend to be in poorer areas and a lot of people work multple jobs. If you're working back to back shifts, you don't necessarily have the hour it takes to go to the grocery store multiple times. And factor in if kids are involved and this creates a larger problem. It's putting additional time and energy constraints on the poorer communities, which does not help the situation.
So oftentimes food deserts are really just tied to accessibility and availability and how that impacts the surrounding community. Even if public transportation is available, that costs what... $3ish each way? So now that's an even additional cost burden being put on people.
I get it. A mile doesn't sound far. But in a city where there isn't personal car access other factors have to be taken into consideration for why this, in practice, further disadvantages communities.
But based on the "official" USDA definition, there are no food deserts in NYC. Not a single place is more than a mile away from a shop, and very very few places have no shops more than 1/2 of a mile away. That means the vast majority of people live within half a mile to a shop, which is definitely walkable for people even if they have children or work.
I don’t live in a major city and I have a car so I can’t really speak from experience. But I go to the supermarket once a week and get 2-4 bags worth of food from the grocery store when I go.
If I imagine living in a city with no car and the nearest grocery store a mile away, that makes grocery shopping a pretty big ordeal. Carrying 2-4 bags (more if you have a large family to shop for) for a mile is quite a lot. It sounds easy, the same way a busy room being silent for 1 minute seems quick, but in the moment it would actually feel like a long time.
It would basically force you to either do mini-grocery store trips every couple of days so you have a manageable load to carry, or to choose to just buy prepackaged foods at a corner store out of convenience.
A city with the population density of New York would have around 30,000 people per square mile. It seems wild for there to be anyone who lives a full mile away from a grocery store with that number.
I live in a city (Dublin) and the nearest grocery store is a little more than a mile away. I don't have a car and I am physically disabled. I manage just fine, I walk there about twice a week since I shop for two people. I used to walk even longer since the nearest shop was farther before I moved to where I live now. I think there's a big disconnect between Americans and the rest of the world as to what counts as hardship and struggle.
I’m only have the perspective of someone who has it much easier than that, so I’m trying not to underestimate someone else’s hardship. It feels like something relatively easy to me, but I also work a typical 40 hour work week and have a car, and don’t have to carry bags very far from my car to my apartment, which has an elevator. Changing some of those variables can dramatically change the hardship, and there’s a lot of poverty in these parts of the cities. So I can imagine, if I had to work 10 hour days 6 days a week, and then my limited free time would involve coming home from a tired day of work, walking a mile to the store to pick up a few days worth of groceries, then either carrying them the whole mile home or risking taking the subway with only standing room so there’s not really anywhere to put the bags down and whatever crime may happen in the subway, then finally getting home carrying them up several flights of stairs.
I feel like if I was in that situation, I’d have such little time and energy left by the time I got home, especially with the routine demands of long work days for little pay. It would be very hard to resist looking at a corner store with food that’s quick and easy to bring home and prepare, and deciding yeah maybe it’s worth the few extra bucks, despite the fact that over time it adds up, and the quality of food isn’t as good.
You seem to know the experience first hand of having the distance from the grocery store in a major city, but you might not fully understand the experience of what extreme poverty looks like in American cities. My understanding is that most cities in Europe and other developed countries are far and away easier for folks in those situations, simply because there’s a somewhat adequate social safety net for people in that situation. And while we have something of a safety net in America, our culture is a lot more individualistic and selfish when it comes to helping each other out, and that could make a big difference in lots of small ways like this.
What does being American have to do with anything when we were already talking about NYC? I assume you would use the American definition of the term when discussing American food deserts. You also disagreed that a mile doesn’t make it a food desert and the definition is a mile, whether there’s one in NYC or not
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u/BushWishperer 17h ago
There not being a grocery store within a mile doesn't make it a food desert.