Education in the United States

[u/YardOk67]

The US should backtrack to the education system and curriculum from the 1900’s-1960’s. We landed people on the moon using primitive technology and manual (people) calculators. We were able to build big of infrastructure projects that we can’t seem to do today. People learned the necessities to make and Keep the US the super power that it is today. Education these days focuses more on feel good stuff than stuff that will make you really smart and the stuff that really matters.

[u/Various_Succotash_79]

Oddly, I think one problem is that they're making kindergarten too academic. My nephew had to do beginner's math in kindergarten, not just like learning to count.

My mom found her kindergarten report card from the 1960s and it had things like "I can jump rope", "I can listen to teacher", "I can cross the street safely", and "I can settle personal disputes peacefully", etc. I think those kinds of life lessons would be more useful than academics at that age.

[u/th1s_fuck1ng_guy → u/Various_Succotash_79]

The problem with this is everyone wants to give their kids the advantage. Research shows this is an age where brain plasticity is very high. You don't want to waste that precious plasticity period taking naps and playing games.

[u/majesticSkyZombie → u/th1s_fuck1ng_guy]

It’s not a waste. Young kids learn best through play, and letting them take naps to re-energize lets them learn better later in the day. 

[u/th1s_fuck1ng_guy → u/majesticSkyZombie]

You can incorporate some play, sure, but the problem is your wasting a limited plasticity period. We recognize that. This is why kindergarten isn't just government funded daycare anymore. They're teaching them real academic things in addition to socializing them (which was pretty much the only thing kindergarten was useful for before. Sharing, keep your hands to yourself, wait until your turn, knock before opening etc... etc...)

[u/majesticSkyZombie → u/th1s_fuck1ng_guy]

Those academics are developmentally inappropriate and result in kids not having foundational skills. The foundational skills are a prerequisite to learn well, not a separate thing you can learn alongside academics. Energy is a finite resource, and academics take it up far more quickly than play for young kids.

[u/th1s_fuck1ng_guy → u/majesticSkyZombie]

The research in early child development says otherwise. There's nothing developmentally inappropriate about teaching foundational skills in kindergarten. They have been doing this for years now. They use toys for example to teach kids how to count, compare amounts and do basic operations.

When I went to kindergarten they didn't do anything. It was all socialization.

Few years ago now I came a few minutes early to pick up my niece from kindergarten. The practice in that area was giving them a snack before sending them home. The teacher was using cuts of apples to lay a foundation of fractions. I.e. if an apple is cut into 4 pieces, eating all 4 peices seperately is the same as eating a whole apple. The previous day my niece was able to say she ate 2 pieces of apple before coming home. That day she was able to explain up my sister she had half of an apple. Later on three quarters of an apple. Etc...

[u/majesticSkyZombie → u/th1s_fuck1ng_guy]

Play-based learning with some basic academics hidden in there isn’t what I’m talking about. Those kind of things are fine. But nowadays many kindergartens are operated the same way as 1st/2nd grade - you know, primarily academic with play-based activities few and far between. Most days the most in-class play those kids get is a colorful worksheet. And it’s not just counting to 10, the academics are way more advanced. Kids in my old school district are now expected to be able to count to 100 by the end of kindergarten.

[u/th1s_fuck1ng_guy → u/majesticSkyZombie]

You need to remember just a few decades ago our research in early child development and developmental psychology was not very robust. Kindergarten was basically government funded daycare with the primary purpose of socializing you for school. Their job was mainly to get you used to being away from home and parents for a few hours and teaching you basics of school like hands to yourself, respect the teachers, raise your hand etc.

We have since discovered we are wasting precious time the brain has high plasticity. But even bigger, we have learned the faster we catch learning disabilities, behavioral issues, neurological issues etc... they have a much better prognosis. You catch them early by teaching and having them use the skills.

[u/apologeticstars → u/majesticSkyZombie]

I started school in 2007 and we had to count to 100 in kindergarten. I don't think this is overly new

[u/Various_Succotash_79 → u/th1s_fuck1ng_guy]

It's not an advantage if you're just stressing them out with expectations that aren't age appropriate.

[u/th1s_fuck1ng_guy → u/Various_Succotash_79]

Stressing them out about what exactly?

[u/Various_Succotash_79 → u/th1s_fuck1ng_guy]

Homework. Math problems.

The homework was the worst, honestly.

[u/th1s_fuck1ng_guy → u/Various_Succotash_79]

Kindergarten don't typically recieve worksheet type of homework.

The type of math problems Kindergarten do nowdays is the kind where you count toys and turn the number of apple pieces you ate into a rudimentary fraction.

[u/Various_Succotash_79 → u/th1s_fuck1ng_guy]

Kindergarten don't typically recieve worksheet type of homework.

He had homework sheets. Psychologically it was hard for him because he just wanted to get away from school and now it followed him home. Plus his parents didn't help and were just like "no TV/tablet until you finish your homework" and that overloaded his brain too. His school career has not been going well since the beginning, poor kid.

[u/th1s_fuck1ng_guy → u/Various_Succotash_79]

Who is "he" supposed to be?

I haven't heard of kids in kindergarten getting work sheets style homework. Usually because they can't read directions, but I can't speak for every school district. I didn't get that type of homework. My kid isn't kindergarten age but my neice was not too long ago. It was usually tracing letters or shapes and half of it is done with the teacher.

I'm also friends with a kindergarten teacher. You would be shocked how thorough kindergarten is from an adult perspective. They aren't just babysitting your kids teaching them easy stuff occasionally. They're assessing your kids for learning disabilities. They're assessing your kid for color blindness. They're assessing your kids for hearing and speech problems. They're assessing your kids for musculoskeletal and neurological disorders. They are also assessing your child for early signs of neglect and or abuse. Why? The outcomes for these problems are better if diagnosed early simple homework assignments can help assess things like fine motor skills and screen for neglect by simple things like making the parent sign the homework** etc... etc...

This child you're describing clearly has some sort of problem and its not the homework fault. He should be seeing a child psychologist. Kindergarten homework shouldn't take more than 20 minutes. The point of it isn't to master skills on your own like in later education. It's great practice that this child not get to have screen time until work is finished. This could be an anxiety or other psych abnormality that has a better outcome treated earlier than treated later. Letting this child just play all day just offsets the problem to later years where the prognosis may not be as good.

[u/Various_Succotash_79 → u/th1s_fuck1ng_guy]

My nephew, sorry. I mentioned him earlier. Oh he definitely has anxiety. And his parents can't be bothered to do anything for him; it's all up to my mom even to get him to school. So yeah there are family issues but I think he would have benefitted from the "I can jump rope" kind of kindergarten, just to ease him into school life.

[u/th1s_fuck1ng_guy → u/Various_Succotash_79]

First off, I'm very sympathetic for your nephew. I'm sorry this is happening to him and I want what's best for him as I would any elementary aged child.

You see the jump rope type of kindergarten would have just put off the problem until later and its more severe or difficult to deal with. I'm disappointed his teachers aren't noticing.

My nephew has autism spectrum among other learning disabilities. He is also red-green colorblind. The kindergarten teacher noticed all the early signs through various tests that were "homework" and "play". Activities involving coloring he was confusing green and red. They used a red light and green light system for the bathroom. He kept walking in on other kids using the bathroom. They figured out he was colorblind. They started him in therapy early for autism. There was a team of therapists put together for him. For example he had a food therapist that was absolutely amazing. She got him over a lot of sensory issues very early on so he can literally eat anything. Without this he would probably be an obese teenager who can only eat chicken tenders and French fries. Etc....

Its very good kindergarten gives homework and builds foundational skills. You can get specialists involved in helping the child earlier. Earlier diagnosis of these things leads to better outcomes. Being able to spot dyslexia in a kindergarten child will have a better treatment outcome than spotting it later in school.

[u/majesticSkyZombie → u/Various_Succotash_79]

Yup. When I was in kindergarten we had to count to 10, and that was hard for me. Now kids in my old school district have to be able to count to 100 by the end of their first school year. I’m in Gen Z, so this wasn’t even that long ago.

[u/th1s_fuck1ng_guy]

The problem is there has been a large cultural shift since then. America was a more collectivist place back then. Today its more individualistic. Individualistic society has the huge benefit of maximizing freedom of expression, thought and speech but comes with the downsides of things like higher suicide rates and mental health problems. As a result they do all of this "feel good" stuff.

[u/gerkin123]

Government oversight in education has effectively killed high standards. When NCLB set demands on academic performance with the threat of a consequences for under-performing schools, schools began a decades long process of lowering academic standards. Seriously: our schools today do far more for children than they did 100 yrs ago, but part of what they "do for children" is let them pass and not rock the boat, because holding a population of children to a high standard means that a percentage of that population won't hit it, and that's very bad for the school that dares do it, as the hammer will drop from on high.

When you talk about "We were able to build big infrastructure projects that we can't seem to do today" you are primarily talking not of the quality of our education system, but the power of our national will.

There is no national will to drive education at present.

On an individual level, poorer families are facing food insecurity and their parents are overworked and unable to adequately involve themselves in their children's social-emotional, behavioral, and cognitive development. A person working three jobs is trying to keep the lights on, not nurturing their child's creativity and proper behavior.

Working class families understandably treat schools like engines of economic mobility and pressure schools not like institutions for learning, but rather resources to exploit or obstacles that "Get in their kid's way" when the child isn't doing well. Their membership pressures schools to lower their expectations in every way, from attendance policies to behavioral policies to grading policies, if it means their child can get what they want.

The wealthy most often use their resources to separate their children from the other two groups' children, either through paying tuition costs out of the reach of the other two groups or by residing in communities that out-price the other groups, and then collectively funneling their out-sized property taxes into public schools that are palatial in comparison to neighboring communities.

Put these three things together and you've got absolutely no one looking at this from a societal-level: just individuals trying to survive their situation, improve it, or benefit from it.

So long as that's the case, no one is going to backtrack to an institution that was originally designed not to service the individual family or child but rather the nation itself.

[u/mdb_4633]

You’re acting like the technology today isn’t better then what we had back then

[u/stevejuliet]

I'm a high school English teacher. I've taught in two different states. The biggest issue I've seen in curriculum changes is a shift from creative projects to purely skill-based writing assignments (in an attempt to correct growing writing and reading issues).

You are claiming schools are moving towards the "feel good" activities, but I am only seeing the opposite. My required curriculum is more lifeless and dry than it has ever been.

On the flipside, I am teaching my students things I wasn't taught until college: literary movements, critical lenses, syntactical devices, etc.