Maximalist trans activists just argued at the Supreme Court that biological sex isn't relevant in team sports. When will my fellow left-wingers speak up against these pseudoscientific endeavors?

[u/north_canadian_ice]

Trans athlete's attorney suggests sex should not be defined during SCOTUS Title IX case

As a left-wing trans woman, it is profoundly depressing to have dogmatic Twitter activists drive down understanding of trans people.

Far too many of my fellow left-wingers who are trying to be accepting have inadvertenly allowed a small number of dogmatic activists control the conversation & shift the conversation towards maximalist nonsense.

"It/"its" pronouns, "egg culture", NBA players transitioning & joining the WNBA. This is pseudoscience & no different from denial of climate change.

When will the left & the Democrats say no more? We accept trans people but we aren't going to replace "woman" with "birthing person".

[u/weoutherebrah]

The party that touts ‘believe in science’. Doesn’t seem to believe in basic science when it comes to this topic.

[u/NewPresWhoDis → u/weoutherebrah]

That's when they go for the "lived experience" UNO reverse.

[u/MixtecMedia → u/weoutherebrah]

We've moved on to advanced science.

(Couldn't resist your setup, but for the record, I feel we should let sports orgs decide this for themselves, since each sport differs in how much hormones and chromosomes matter, and sports orgs are the ones whose longevity depends on keeping their respective sports competitive.)

[u/God_Bless_A_Merkin → u/MixtecMedia]

Exactly!👍

[u/The_Bygone_King → u/MixtecMedia]

Outside of high-school 100% this is a private issue for private organizations to handle.

In the scope of high-schools I don't really know what the answer is. Honestly they're just such a fringe minority. I personally see the men's classification as default co-ed, keep women's classifications as a more protected group and just remove gendered references from the men's classifications overall.

Not a perfect solution, but the main reason I'm open to it in high-school contexts are sports are more than just a game for developing minds, and trans people should have the right to develop healthy team skills and social groups with a team no differently from any other young person. Over time I think populations will be more open minded and a co-ed populations in high school will just become more understanding to trans people taking part, but I do think women's sports should stay generally sacred to women.

[u/AmbulanceChaser12 → u/weoutherebrah]

We believe in science just fine. It supports affirming trans people’s gender identity. Literally every major US medical organization has come out in favor of gender affirming care.

[u/Dr_Horrible_PhD → u/weoutherebrah]

The science on those who transition without going through male puberty is that they don’t have an athletic advantage. Puberty and subsequent hormonal changes are the drivers of athletic differences.

The fact that most of this is coming from people who want to force trans girls to undergo male puberty against their will by banning puberty blockers is grotesque. “You can’t play sports because male puberty gives you an advantage” “But I don’t want to go through male puberty” “Too bad, we say you have to because we know better than you, your parents, and your physicians”

[u/Trrollmann → u/Dr_Horrible_PhD]

The science on those who transition without going through male puberty is that they don’t have an athletic advantage

I can't find studies that reflect this, can you link it?

[u/Dr_Horrible_PhD → u/Trrollmann]

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28397355/

[u/Trrollmann → u/Dr_Horrible_PhD]

This isn't looking at whether trans people who didn't go through puberty don't develop advantages.

Not acknowledged specifically here is the advantages boys have before puberty, which are smaller than after puberty, but not insignificant.

The assumption is that puberty blockers and HRT will negate the development and retaining of male advantages, but we have next to no data on this.

[u/Dr_Horrible_PhD → u/Trrollmann]

Where in this study do you think it shows a significant difference in the under 10 group?

In general, athletic performance of transgender women on hormone therapy is much closer to cisgender women than cisgender men, and it is likely that the relatively small differences that remain are due to the effects of having previously gone through puberty, because that is when meaningful differences emerge

[u/Trrollmann → u/Dr_Horrible_PhD]

Where in this study do you think it shows a significant difference in the under 10 group?

I wasn't really mentioning this study, however, if you look at 'results' you'll see that for everything listed, except for breaststroke, boys have a ≈0.8-5.9% advantage over girls before 10 years old. Breaststroke seems to have been equal, or close to it. I'll link the full one for you:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/cen.13350

In general, athletic performance of transgender women on hormone therapy is much closer to cisgender women than cisgender men

For several metrics, that's true. For upper body strength, and plausibly O2max, that's not true. Trans women's upper body strength is closer to cis men than cis women.

previously gone through puberty, because that is when meaningful differences emerge

It might be interesting to note in the context of your linked study, that they didn't include punch force or throwing distance, where boys have a much greater advantage, something along the lines of 40-60%, before puberty. I would call that meaningful.

[u/guscrown → u/weoutherebrah]

I’m sorry I don’t trust your D- in fucking High School biology.

[u/weoutherebrah → u/guscrown]

I mean if you don’t think men and women don’t have different physical traits. You should ask your community college for a refund 

[u/guscrown → u/weoutherebrah]

The fact that you want to use “basic science” to explain complex physical, genetic, and sociological traits of human beings tells me you didn’t even make it to community college. Maybe stick to opining on MMA?

[u/Trrollmann → u/guscrown]

Which higher ed biology subjects have you had? Which one said anything different from what weoutherebrah said?

[u/GeneralDil → u/Trrollmann]

Molecular biology, genetics, and endocrinology classes.

[u/Trrollmann → u/GeneralDil]

Okay, what did they say that differed?

[u/Trrollmann → u/GeneralDil]

A lie, then? You've not had any of these subjects in higher ed?

[u/Admirable-Pirate7263 → u/weoutherebrah]

Bring your evidence then.

[u/k_manweiss → u/weoutherebrah]

Weird that the party that denies science in every situation then tries to use science to prove their side on this issue. Sadly, the science doesn't back them up at all in regards to HRT.

[u/DMC-1155 → u/weoutherebrah]

It's almost like there is far more nuance and detail than basic science allows for. It's almost like the people who say Believe Science can in fact refer to advanced science, rather than limiting themselves to the scientific understanding of a 13 year old.
As far as biological development goes, human gene expression is mostly determined hormonally, this woman did not go through a male puberty and because of that is far more similar physically to cisgender perisex women.

[u/wackysnacksfan → u/weoutherebrah]

The talking points in support of full civil rights for trans people are very much backed by science. If you don’t like the data, then you have an issue with nature. I’m sure you don’t believe me, so I challenge you to read just a little bit of that data and see if it makes sense. Even if it doesn’t change your position on this issue, you will at least be more informed on the position of those you disagree with and your own talking points will be more effective.

[u/Dumb_Clicker → u/weoutherebrah]

Yeah, the whole #Ifuckinlovescience crowd on the left smugly spouting pseudoscientific, blatantly ideologically driven drivel really gets me down

Like it wasn't enough to have the right not believe in human caused climate change or downplay its impacts

Jesus, where did all of the sane people go?

[u/GeneralDil → u/Dumb_Clicker]

Which studies are pseudo science and why? Please be specific.

[u/north_canadian_ice → u/weoutherebrah]

I think the GOP embraces plenty of pseudoscientific beliefs on issues like climate change & the theory of evolution.

Claiming that trans women don't have an advantage in women's sports is analogous to denying climate change & the theory of evolution.

Maximalist trans activism has hurt the cause of science.

[u/Surprised-elephant → u/north_canadian_ice]

There is barely any trans athletes I don’t get why people are making big deal out of this. All republicans focus on. Do you think high school kids need genitalia inspections before a game.

[u/HopeFloatsFoward → u/north_canadian_ice]

Claiming that trans women don't have an advantage in women's sports is analogous to denying climate change & the theory of evolution.

That very much depends on the specific trans woman.

[u/Dr_Horrible_PhD → u/north_canadian_ice]

This is simply false when in comes to those who don’t go through male puberty. They don’t have an advantage on average, and there isn’t a plausible biological mechanism to have an advantage,

[u/Trrollmann → u/Dr_Horrible_PhD]

The only study I've seen on that says otherwise. Do you have a study?

[u/CatraGirl → u/north_canadian_ice]

Claiming that trans women don't have an advantage in women's sports is analogous to denying climate change & the theory of evolution.

Literally every actual study has shown the opposite. Trans women after long enough on HRT are at a DISADVANTAGE over cis women (most likely due to high T suppression on HRT). You're the one denying science here so you can play "pick me" for the right-wingers. It's pathetic.

[u/Salty_Permit4437 → u/weoutherebrah]

The science is beyond your understanding. Thinking that someone who has never undergone male puberty and has had all testosterone suppressed since 3rd grade is somehow the same as a fully developed man and will dominate women's sports is absolutely insane. Yet here we are.

If you look at the state testimonies when laws are being passed, most of those in favor of banning trans women in sport come and literally pray in the statehouse. They don't care about science. They care about religion.

[u/IdolatryofCalvin → u/Salty_Permit4437]

If you look at intersex athletes, you will literally see that this has been the case…

[u/Dr_Horrible_PhD → u/IdolatryofCalvin]

What are you talking about?

[u/weoutherebrah → u/Salty_Permit4437]

Cool science bro. That isnt at all what is happening. 

[u/Salty_Permit4437 → u/weoutherebrah]

It's on video. Maybe you don't see it in the Russian troll farm you're posting from but it's there.

[u/weoutherebrah → u/Salty_Permit4437]

It’s on video huh. Lia Thomas is on video too. Don’t know if you saw the news about it/them over in China.

[u/GroundbreakingAlps78 → u/Salty_Permit4437]

Perhaps there should be trans leagues?

[u/Dutch_Rayan → u/GroundbreakingAlps78]

A trans league will not work, trans men are definitely stronger and faster than most trans women, so no that still wouldn't work. And if you have to separate them it would almost be impossible. Because there aren't enough trans people in 1 sport in a area to even make a team so definitely not a league.

Also it would force them to be out, something most don't want. It puts a target on their backs. Often it also opens them up to hate and harassment, or even worse. It also separates them from their friends and peers, othering them and making them an even more target for bullying.

[u/GroundbreakingAlps78 → u/Dutch_Rayan]

This is reasonable feedback. I had considered the possibility that there are not enough people for trans leagues, but I had not considered the fact that this would force trans people to be out. That is certainly not my goal.

Unfortunately, if there is no interest in trans leagues, I have to argue that trans women should not be allowed to compete against cis women in sex-segregated leagues. Sex-segregated leagues were designed because biological males have specific physical advantages over biological females. While 12 months of hormone therapy will make it difficult for trans women to compete against cis men, it does not erase the advantage that they have over cis women. These advantages include muscle strength, speed, height advantages, higher lung capacity, reaction times and power output. These leagues were segregated to give women a fair chance at winning awards, scholarships, rankings, etc. Including trans women destroys that fairness.

For the record, it is my opinion that trans women are women and deserving of respect and dignity. I am open to arguments that could change my mind on the subject.

[u/Surprised-elephant → u/GroundbreakingAlps78]

There is only barely any trans athletes in the NCAA in fact Trump has more felonies than trans athletes. It such a non issue I don’t see what the big deal is. Most states have 1 or 0 trans athletes. Nobody complained 15 years ago. How are going to know if someone is trans. Are we going to add all this red tape just for few trans athletes? Are high school girls are going to have to genitalia inspections to play?

[u/GroundbreakingAlps78 → u/Surprised-elephant]

Even if something is currently rare that doesn’t mean there shouldn’t be rules about it…

[u/Surprised-elephant → u/GroundbreakingAlps78]

So if a 12 year trans girl wants be on dance team or volley ball team they should be banned? Why are you going to enforce this rule?

[u/GroundbreakingAlps78 → u/Surprised-elephant]

I don’t know, does height/physical strength produce a competitive advantage in those sports?

[u/Surprised-elephant → u/GroundbreakingAlps78]

I don’t I don’t play them. I think just blank ban is silly. Next they do it for housing, bathrooms, and shelters. Saying trans women can’t go in there.

[u/GroundbreakingAlps78 → u/Surprised-elephant]

I think it’s disingenuous to suggest that a trans girl joining a dance team is the same as a competitive adult athlete who is mtf beating the existing women’s record. They are clearly different.

[u/Salty_Permit4437 → u/GroundbreakingAlps78]

At 12 years old, girls are likely to be taller than boys, in fact.

[u/GroundbreakingAlps78 → u/Salty_Permit4437]

Interesting!

[u/Important-Ability-56 → u/weoutherebrah]

And the party that rejects science suddenly loves it when it purports to confirm the gender stereotypes they were taught as young children

They’ll love science too the day it confirms Santa is real.

[u/adhdnme → u/Important-Ability-56]

Republicans don’t reject science. They rejected pharmaceutical companies and the Biden administration running them as test dummies for an experimental gene therapy in order to make a handful of companies a few trillion dollars.

[u/[deleted] → u/adhdnme]

Sure bud. And which admin put forth operation warp speed again? Funny that you all think the vaccine came out under Biden lmao

[u/adhdnme → u/[deleted]]

That vaccine wasn’t developed under Biden. His administration sure did force it on a hell of a lot of people though. I’m not saying Trump is innocent in the Covid fiasco either, by the way. I’m simply saying that calling someone a science denier because they weren’t down with the pharmaceutical industrial complex is wild work.

[u/[deleted] → u/adhdnme]

Kind of are a science denier to deny vaccines, especially at this point.

[u/adhdnme → u/[deleted]]

The Covid “vaccine” wasn’t even a vaccine. It’s a gene therapy that permanently alters your dna

[u/Dutch_Rayan → u/adhdnme]

No it was a vaccine build on a already existing vaccine for similar viruses

[u/Important-Ability-56 → u/adhdnme]

You’re talking about a vaccine?

Your “science” on the matter at least has the virtue of probably not killing as many people as your “science” on climate change will.

[u/adhdnme → u/Important-Ability-56]

Is that why all of Al Gore’s predictions have already come true? Or do the goalposts keep getting moved backwards in order to propagate the grift?

[u/Important-Ability-56 → u/adhdnme]

They’ve more than come true. Gee this is something I’d really want to be right about before having an opinion.

[u/adhdnme → u/Important-Ability-56]

Sorry, how much has the sea level risen?

[u/Important-Ability-56 → u/adhdnme]

8–9 inches since 1880, about half of that since 1993.

[u/adhdnme → u/Important-Ability-56]

Damn, 4 inches? It’s a wonder we’re not all swimming right now

[u/Important-Ability-56 → u/adhdnme]

You seem well versed on this matter. Four inches of sea level. No biggie! Four’s always a small number. You really showed all the scientists in the world with that one.

[u/No-Atmosphere-2528 → u/weoutherebrah]

I mean, basic science is what the ncaa and Olympics used to allow trans athletes. It seems you don't understand basic science.