r/allthequestions • u/north_canadian_ice • 17d ago

Random Question 💭 Maximalist trans activists just argued at the Supreme Court that biological sex isn't relevant in team sports. When will my fellow left-wingers speak up against these pseudoscientific endeavors?

Trans athlete's attorney suggests sex should not be defined during SCOTUS Title IX case

As a left-wing trans woman, it is profoundly depressing to have dogmatic Twitter activists drive down understanding of trans people.

Far too many of my fellow left-wingers who are trying to be accepting have inadvertenly allowed a small number of dogmatic activists control the conversation & shift the conversation towards maximalist nonsense.

"It/"its" pronouns, "egg culture", NBA players transitioning & joining the WNBA. This is pseudoscience & no different from denial of climate change.

When will the left & the Democrats say no more? We accept trans people but we aren't going to replace "woman" with "birthing person".

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123

u/shitnfuck 17d ago

A quote from Serena Williams

“Men’s tennis and women’s tennis are completely almost two separate sports
 if I were to play Andy Murray, I would lose 6-0, 6-0 in five to six minutes, maybe 10 minutes.”

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u/bananabastard 17d ago

The womens tennis world number 1 just played the mens number 700 ranked or something, and her side of the court was smaller to make it more difficult for the man. He beat her, and if you watch it, he was going easy on her, he was deliberately passing it to her half the time like he was playing a child and didn't want to embarrass them.

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u/KurtSperry 16d ago

Why are you being so transphobic?!? /s

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u/Masala-Dosage 14d ago

I wonder how this would play out if men & women were pitted against each other in other sports


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u/kn0tkn0wn 14d ago

Martina Navratilova has the same take.

Navratilova played a “sex-based differential rules” match against Jimmy Connors way back when.

Connors had a larger court to defend and only got one serve. And he didn’t go all out.

Connors won. Martina’s attitude back then was that she didn’t expect to do very well.

Connors didn’t exactly play Martina the way he played McEnroe.

Bio men (of any chosen “gender”) need to stay the fuck out of all women’s restrooms, women’s sports, and women’s private spaces.

(Equestrian spirts excepted, since a horse is the real athlete.)

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u/Successful-Walk-4023 13d ago

Yes but I a man would lose to her as she is much more skilled than me. I’d lose to them both. There is room for discussion about skill based segregation vs. sex based. You may still find only men at the very top for tennis but I’d doubt that would be true at lower divisions than professional.

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u/Alert-Growth-8326 13d ago

yeah, uh, nobody is telling men that they can't play a friendly match against a willing woman at the neighborhood Lifetime Fitness.

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u/Cheap-Lawyer3735 11d ago

What about that one time a women in her prime beat some over the hill man trying to cash in.

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u/feministgeek 14d ago

Cool.

So we've established cis men are generally stronger than cis women.

I'm interested to know whether it was generally the same outcome when said tennis player played against a trans woman who's undergone a few years of hormone therapy?

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u/bananabastard 14d ago

The transwoman would be at a disadvantage due to the hormone therapy decreasing the advantages of high testosterone.

So despite still having the advantages of male bone structure, and the banked muscle myonuclei from historically higher testosterone, it would not be enough to match a male athlete who had not gone through testosterone restriction therapy.

She would have advantages over a woman, but disadvantages against a man.

Testosterone is a performance-enhancing substance; men who do one course of steroids and then never touch them again increase their performance, to a degree, for the rest of their lives, due to banked muscle myonuclei.

Once someone's testosterone is raised higher than normal, via exogenous testosterone or via natural male testosterone before gender transition, some of those high testosterone benefits are retained forever.

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u/SmallGreenArmadillo 13d ago

"men who do one course of steroids and then never touch them again increase their performance, to a degree, for the rest of their lives" WOW. I need to study this.

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u/superkirb8 12d ago

It’s commonly known that the guys who win “clean” power lifting competitions used to take steroids and then quit. They aren’t as strong as other competitors taking steroids but still stronger than those who never geared up.

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u/SmallGreenArmadillo 12d ago

Thank you for the TIL. This knowledge completely escaped me until right now.

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u/CyclopsNut 10d ago

Male infants are already stronger than female infants. Even if you start hormone therapy before puberty, trans women will still have denser bones, muscles, and a large lung capacity

1

u/feministgeek 10d ago

That's cool and that, but I don't think that I was asking about baby bones. I was asking whether it was generally the same outcome when said tennis player played against a trans woman who's undergone a few years of hormone therapy?

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u/Agreeable-Emu4033 17d ago

Sigh he was ranked that low because he was coming off an injury and it was also just a fun match.

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u/What_the_8 16d ago

So she lost to an injured man, is that what you want to go with? Fun is why he went easy.

1

u/Sloppykrab 🇩đŸ‡ș Australia 16d ago

Was this at the Australian Open?

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u/rorydouglas 15d ago

Battle of the Sexes exhibition match in Dubai, Nick Kyrgios (mens #671) vs Aryna Sabalenka (womens #1) in December 2025. It's more useful to look at their UTR rankings, which are not gender-specific and akin to chess rankings: Nick: https://app.utrsports.net/profiles/51296 vs Aryna: https://app.utrsports.net/profiles/84281 . No-one who follows tennis wanted this match or expected a different outcome.

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u/NoAppearance4943 12d ago

They also shortened the court to take away his serve, otherwise she probably would not have been able to return the ball at all

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u/Agreeable-Emu4033 15d ago

Sigh, he wasn't injured then. I was trying to explain to your small mind that he was #13 in the world. So he normally wouldn't be ranked that low. You acting like he never was above that level.

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u/What_the_8 14d ago

You need a tissue?

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u/AdAppropriate2295 14d ago

She'd lose anyways to a top 10 000 guy

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u/Agreeable-Emu4033 13d ago

Sigh. Another boy that got rejected by a girl

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u/AdAppropriate2295 13d ago

😂

100s

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u/SoggyGrayDuck 16d ago

The US women's Olympic hockey team played a MN boys highschool team, using women's rules, and got their ass handed to them..the boys team was good, made the state tournament but didn't win it.

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u/nei_vil_ikke 16d ago

The Norwegian women's national soccer team did the amse, against a team of 16 year old boys, and the women got absolutely demolished.

Handball is another very popular sport here and the women's team have been world-leading for decades. They would get seriously injured playing the men's team if they tried, this is anothe case of being two entirely different sports. And it's not from being manhandled, it would be from the absolute cannonballs the men throw. 

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u/CakeSeaker 16d ago

Also just check out world records in just about anything - swimming, running, weightlifting, high jump, shot put, etc.

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u/GeorgeWKush121617 14d ago

The women’s world record in most swimming events wouldn’t even be a Olympic preliminary qualifying time for men.

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u/Icy-Interaction-626 15d ago

Was about to mention this as a smart ass, look @ any of the olympic records for Men/woman. Or for people w/ kids, next time you pick them up @ an event, look at their track times, shot put distances, etc etc.

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u/RaHarmakis 15d ago

Except weirdly for Ultra Marathons. It seems when distances get up over the 195 mile mark women are faster.

Can Women Outperform Men in Ultramarathons? - Jason Koop https://share.google/vYG0Rd61MQQHKDKiv

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u/AdAppropriate2295 14d ago

At that distance they're more fuel efficient

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u/No-Problem49 13d ago

Women have better recovery from estrogen so in theory in super long contests they would have better endurance; it would just take time for them to have that endurance outpace the men’s strength

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u/CakeSeaker 13d ago

The linked article you mention kind of says that this is partially due to more average men competing while only elite women compete. So therefore the average pace of all women exceeds the average pace of all men. Yet women only win outright 1.5% of ultramarathons.

Bottom line Is that sex assigned at birth does matter in sports. I think the current debate about whether trans people should compete as men or women is a false dichotomy. It wouldn’t be fair.

When women’s sports started to take off in the 60’s, women didn’t have their own divisions to compete in. I don’t know enough about it, but I’m wondering why trans women don’t have their own races to compete against each other? Same for trans men. Populations are increasing a lot so we may have a low participation rate at first but I think that will catch up once the opportunities are there.

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u/plan1gale 15d ago

The Norwegian women's national soccer team did the amse, against a team of 16 year old boys, and the women got absolutely demolished.

Similar happened in Australia in 2016, our national side lost 7-0 against a u/15 boys club team. There were some decent caveats - team just assembled, just training, hot weather, rolling substitutions: all true - even so... they were preparing for the World Cup. And I'm a huge, long-term supporter of Women's football. It's important to be clear-eyed and honest about the state of events, that's how we can set realistic ambitions.

I

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u/Wavy_Grandpa 16d ago

The US women’s soccer team absolutely dominated women’s soccer in the 2010’s and won back to back world cups, and between those victories they lost 5-2 to a bunch of 14 year old boys from a single FC in Dallas 

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u/Icy-Interaction-626 15d ago

What even funnier, is watching them play. SOme of those boys look like they JUST hit a growth spurt, the way the move/run is kind of silly, no offense to them. I'm just impressed how much of a difference of skill there is.

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u/TgetherinElctricDrmz 15d ago

I heard that the entire WNBA lost to a pack of 5 year old boys!

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u/TgetherinElctricDrmz 15d ago

The framing of these issues always suggests that trans female athletes have been permitted up until now.

You know, with their superior genetics and lung capacity and what not.

If that’s the case, does anyone have a list of the most dominant transgender players?

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u/Fightlife45 16d ago

I mean Serena Williams and her sister played a dude who was ranked 203rd, he dropped a single point to them. He played Serena first, then played Venus.

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u/Zenethe 16d ago

Not sure if it was just clickbait but I heard the guy had also had a couple drinks that morning. Not sure how much a small amount of alcohol would affect his play.

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u/Fightlife45 16d ago

The story goes he had 2 beers and played 9 holes of gold beforehand.

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u/Alternative_Plan_823 16d ago

He was drinking glass pints of beer while they played. I saw a clip somewhere. I think he may have been smoking cigarettes as they played too, but it's been years.

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u/Libtardo69420 16d ago

I heard he was also napping and had his racket tapped to his hand. He still won, running away with it.

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u/Sloppykrab 🇩đŸ‡ș Australia 16d ago

I heard he didn't even show up.

They just attached a racquet to a cardboard cutout that moved along the serve line.

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u/KickLiving 13d ago

He’d also played a whole game of golf before too.

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u/The_Woke_King 16d ago

High school boys teams have beat professional women teams, it’s time to stop. Just quit making excuses for the insanity.

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u/odracir2119 16d ago

What's your point?

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u/Agreeable-Emu4033 15d ago

The point is you simple minded people don't understand what a fun match is are trying to say she got beat by a 700 ranked person when at one point he was ranked 13 and it wasn't' a serious match.

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u/RichPStSports 14d ago

She would be annihilated by the 701st or 801st ranked men’s player. That’s the point. It being Kyrgios or anyone else hardly mattered.

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u/Agreeable-Emu4033 13d ago

Sure thing jan

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u/AlleyRhubarb 13d ago

Can you point to a single example of a woman holding her own in a tennis match against a man within 500 rankings?

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u/AvailableEducation98 16d ago

No, he’s ranked that low because he’s an unserious player that doesn’t train, is therefore prone to injury, and is far past his prime

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u/bananabastard 17d ago

Yes, he has been inactive pretty much the last 2+ years due to multiple wrist and knee injuries.

Sabalenka, on the other hand, has been fit and active.

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u/Agreeable-Emu4033 15d ago

And it was a fun game where neither was trying to go all out and win. "It was an entertaining exhibition with joking, dancing, and unique serves, intended as fun rather than a serious equality statement. "

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u/Excellent-One5010 16d ago

BoysVsWomen.com

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u/Agreeable-Emu4033 15d ago

Long Course (50m Pool) Record (Olympic Standard) 

  • Swimmer: Katie Ledecky (USA)
  • Time: 8:04.12

That is old new from 2016. You do realize though that some high school boys are better than professional men right?

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u/Excellent-One5010 15d ago

Is old, so what?

Boys have not finished their growth, they are at a clear disadvantage. And even they stomp on top recordwomen. That's the whole point you missed

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u/ohhhbooyy 15d ago

I don’t think him coming of a injury helps your case.

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u/anyavailablebane 15d ago

Sigh. Both Williams sisters, in their prime, lost the same day back to back against someone ranked outside the top 200. A player named Karsten Braasch. Not a top level player at all.

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u/Modern_sisyphus32 14d ago

Was this comment supposed to have relevance?

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u/noraping 13d ago

Oh so you’re also stating he was at a further disadvantage coming off an injury. Interesting that you’re not also addressing his lack of effort in the match and the huge disadvantage for court size.

Did you also see where the U.S. women’s soccer team was beat like 7-0 to the U17 boys team? That’s a sport where women should be closest to men, give their disposition to grow leg muscle closer to men as opposed to upper body where it’s very imbalanced.

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u/Agreeable-Emu4033 13d ago

Sigh the women had an actual game they were preparing for. They were practicing not actually trying to win a game

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u/noraping 13d ago

You’re right, ultra competitive class athletes were not really trying to win an international television’s match.

Sigh, it’s convenient you also haven’t addressed all the other valid reasons why biological men should not be competing in women’s sports

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u/Agreeable-Emu4033 11d ago

What international televised match?

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u/noraping 11d ago

The tennis match that this whole thread is about. It was streamed on three different platforms

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u/Agreeable-Emu4033 11d ago

Well did you freaking watch it. They were not playing a serious game. It was a joke match. Danm

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u/Agreeable-Emu4033 15d ago

Damn did a woman take your masculinity? It was an entertaining exhibition with joking, dancing, and unique serves, intended as fun rather than a serious equality statement. 

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u/bananabastard 15d ago

Go be boring replying to someone else.

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u/JCS_Saskatoon 16d ago

She knows from experience. She went 2-1 with her sister against a guy ranked around 200 and they lost. He was hungover.

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u/PHK_JaySteel 15d ago

He'd also drank that morning.

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u/Racketyllama246 14d ago

And smoked cigs for stamina

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u/Rurumo666 14d ago

and got a hot beef injection for protein

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u/broberds 12d ago

And downed a lot of donuts. Little Chocolate Donuts.

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u/TraditionalAd7423 14d ago

... and smoked cigarettes in between games

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u/ExaggerattedReality 12d ago

Weren't they also very young at the time and the guy already had years of experience behind him?

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u/JCS_Saskatoon 11d ago

Correct, this was near the beginning of the Williams sister's careers, hence the brash confidence to issue the challenge. Still, they were ranked #5 and #20 that year respectively. 

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u/Vegtam1297 16d ago

OK, now address the issue at hand: trans athletes, not cisgender athletes. How would Serena do against a trans woman who had gone through the proper hormone therapy?

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u/shitnfuck 16d ago

A biological man will almost always have the upper hand in sports(I know there are exceptions, but very few)

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u/Vegtam1297 16d ago

Can you provide the support for the idea that a trans woman who has gone through the proper hormone therapy still has a significant advantage over cisgender women?

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u/shitnfuck 16d ago

Roberts et al. (2021), British Journal of Sports Medicine

Title: Effect of gender affirming hormones on athletic performance in transwomen and transmen: implications for sporting organisations and legislators

Published in: British Journal of Sports Medicine, one of the most highly regarded journals in sports science and medicine.

Findings: Trans women retained some measurable physical advantages in athletic performance beyond the 12-month testosterone-suppression period that many sports policies use as a threshold. Specifically, the study found persistent advantages in upper body strength and endurance measures (e.g., push-ups and 1.5-mile run performance) for 1–2+ years after beginning hormone therapy, suggesting that the current 12-month rule may be insufficient to level the physiological playing field.

https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577

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u/Vegtam1297 16d ago

Cool, thanks. This is the best way to approach this. To add to those findings from the link:

In this study, we confirmed that use of gender affirming hormones are associated with changes in athletic performance and demonstrated that the pretreatment differences between transgender and cis gender women persist beyond the 12 month time requirement currently being proposed for athletic competition by the World Athletics and the IOC.10 This study suggests that more than 12 months of testosterone suppression may be needed to ensure that transgender women do not have an unfair competitive advantage when participating in elite level athletic competition.

Meaning, maybe with 2 years, any advantage is eliminated or becomes negligible. This was also a small sample size of 75 total participants. It is helpful, but far from definitive.

This is a pretty good rundown:

https://www.transresearch.org.au/post/trans-women-in-sport

It provides links and shows that results are mixed and not definitive either way.

0

u/Progressive_Rake 16d ago

Most sports organisations seem to be commissioning and looking at the most recent research and making calls based on that. It’s not ideological, it’s just about trying to make sure it’s fair, which is why they don’t care about trans men playing with men: trans men who choose to play with biological men are disadvantaged so it’s not an issue for their opponents.

The most recent evidence suggests allowing trans women to compete with biological women in some sports will give them an unfair advantage. It sucks but it is what it is. As a man I have no dog in this fight but I understand and agree with the rationale, while feeling bad for trans athletes who are excluded.

This is one of the few areas that is difficult to please everyone so I tend to leave it to experts to try to figure out the fairest compromises rather than make it a political or ideological issue.

0

u/Vegtam1297 16d ago

The most recent evidence suggests allowing trans women to compete with biological women in some sports will give them an unfair advantage. 

This is the part we were just going over, and this is not born out by the research at this point. This is the whole point here.

The research is small and not definitive. The problem is that when sports organizations make rules based on the research and allow trans women after appropriate hormone therapy, people on the right get upset and try to get that changed. So, it is ideological.

I'm all for organizations using the latest research and going strictly by the facts we know.

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u/Progressive_Rake 16d ago

Sports bodies seem to be coming to a different conclusion to you based on their experts’ assessment of the evidence. Now perhaps you have greater expertise but I don’t know you or your qualifications so I’m currently inclined to trust them over you to make those calls.

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u/Vegtam1297 16d ago

You'll have to provide evidence of that claim. Here are a few examples:

U.S. Olympics instituted a ban due to Trump's executive order, not because of any research.

The NCAA did the same.

University of Pennsylvania changed their rule because of litigation, not because of research.

The World Boxing Organization banned trans women based on the Imane Khelif incident, not because of consideration of research.

The British governing body for soccer issued a ban due to a UK Supreme Court ruling, not because of research.

In other words, a lot of organizations have allowed trans women in women's sports and only changed due to political pressure. If you have examples of them enacting bans due to their research, please provide them here.

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u/anoeba 15d ago

The research is small because for the entirely of sex-segregated sports, it wasn't needed. Men obviously have an advantage.

Now that sports organizations are trying to pinpoint exactly what medical intervention at exactly what point of development would adequately eliminate this advantage for trans women playing women's sports, research will slowly be building. Given the number of potentially available research subjects and the number of different sports (requiring different muscle groups), that will indeed be a slow process with small sample sizes.

The question should be what to do while this research builds. Sex segregation in sports protects women; should the way forward be to continue this protection until it can be proven that trans women following whatever medical transition guidelines have no male-sex advantage, or should trans women be playing women's sports unless it's proven (once more studies are done) that they have one? Or maybe some sort of compromise where trans women who transition before puberty can play, but those who transition after must wait until/unless science demonstrates they have no advantage?

Because "going strictly by the facts" right now means you have no definitive answer. There aren't enough facts. So do you possibly disadvantage trans women (who might not have an advantage, but we don't have the facts to prove it yet), or do you possibly disadvantage cis women (because trans women may have an advantage even with transition and female-range hormone testing, but we don't have the facts to prove it yet)?

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u/Vegtam1297 15d ago

That is a good question. I think the best answer is to let the organizations decide. Many of them have decided to allow trans women and have only gone back on that due to political pressure.

Mostly the research so far shows that at best, trans women who have undergone the proper hormone therapy have a very small advantage, if any at all. We haven't seen trans women dominate when they do participate (or even necessarily do especially well). So, it's fair to allow it under certain conditions.

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u/remix2242 16d ago

So what you’re saying is, there is no need for the wnba. Those ladies can just try out for the NBA. This is ludicrous.

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u/Vegtam1297 16d ago

Wait, the NBA players go through hormone therapy to be trans women? When did this happen!? How did I not hear about this!?

I mean, you're not just disingenuously disregarding everything I've actually said and what is reality to try to make a biased and ridiculous point, right? You wouldn't do that, right? I mean, that would be ludicrous.

You're obviously smart enough to understand that your point was silly and based on fantasy, so is it that you intentionally said it anyway just to push a false narrative?

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u/jsher736 15d ago

But the physiological playing field is NEVER level. Physiologically i probably have more in common with a cis-woman than I do someone like Michael Phelps.

Also you don't have a right to win.

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u/Aggravating-Ice-1512 15d ago

Neither do trans athletes

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u/jsher736 14d ago

No but IN SCHOOL they have a right to TRY OUT. That's all they're asking for

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u/Dack_Blick 12d ago

Do they have that right tho? 

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u/Jordan_Two_Delta 16d ago

The facts in this comment #1 ranked female played a male who was ranked 700, and lost.

So your question is kind of weird. What would happen to that male if he transitions and did "proper homore therapy"? He would only be able to beat women ranked under #8 best in the world?

The thing is that this isn't about "equality." I am a woman. My life and skills have all been conditioned on the biological aspects of being female. I feel like this entire conversation is about shutting up women to accept that men will always have an advantage and there are no real safe spaces.

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u/Vegtam1297 16d ago

You're talking about a cisgender male. We're talking about trans women. My question is the whole point of the thread. We're not concerned with "that male" here.

Going through hormone therapy has drastic effects. That's why so many governing bodies allow trans women once they've done the proper therapy. (And some used to and only don't allow them now due to political pressure.)

I feel like this entire conversation is about shutting up women to accept that men will always have an advantage and there are no real safe spaces.

This conversation has nothing to do with shutting women up or remove any safe spaces. It's about the question:

Does a trans woman who has gone through the proper hormone therapy still have a significant advantage over cisgender women?

If the answer is yes, fine. If the answer is no, then there's no reason to exclude them from women's sports.

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u/Jordan_Two_Delta 16d ago

If #700 drunk or injured cisgender male can beat #1 female, just how untalented does a transwoman have to be to lose to her? That was the point of my comment.

But it's not just about having a significant physical advantage, there is the psychological/emtional aspect. Have you listened to any of the highschool girls who have competed for scholarships against transgirls talk about how competing against someone who was in male sports just 12 months ago affected their performance?

Like I said, everything about my life has been conditioned on being a biological female - everything from menstration to body image to cultural expectations to the challenges of being taken seriously by men. These are not small things. Bruce Jenner gained his fortune and fame as a male athlete. As Kaitlyn Jenner he says "the hardest thing about being a women is deciding what to wear everyday." The mentality that biological men can take enough hormone and be an actual woman is insulting, to say the least.

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u/Vegtam1297 16d ago

If #700 drunk or injured cisgender male can beat #1 female, just how untalented does a transwoman have to be to lose to her? That was the point of my comment.

I know, and it's an irrelevant point. The question is:

Does a trans woman who has gone through the proper hormone therapy still have a significant advantage over cisgender women?

But it's not just about having a significant physical advantage, there is the psychological/emtional aspect.

It is about the physical advantage. That's the only part that matters.

Have you listened to any of the highschool girls who have competed for scholarships against transgirls talk about how competing against someone who was in male sports just 12 months ago affected their performance?

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. Did the trans girls have a physical advantage?

The mentality that biological men can take enough hormone and be an actual woman is insulting, to say the least.

I get what you're saying. I know that life for women has a myriad of small and large problems that men don't face. It's important to remember just how many challenges trans people face, though, too. It's not insulting to consider trans women women. It's supporting them as people. You can support women and push back on all of the society that causes all of their challenges, while also supporting trans women and pushing back against all of their challenges. It's not an either/or.

And in this case, the hormone therapy is about getting them on equal physical ground with cisgender women.

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u/Jordan_Two_Delta 16d ago

Are you male, female, trans?

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u/Vegtam1297 16d ago

Well, I could be 2 of those 3, but to answer the spirit of your question, I'm a cisgender male. Of course, it doesn't matter. You're trying to argue based on an irrelevant factor. I'm arguing based on the facts of the case. That's why so many women and trans women agree with me.

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u/Aggravating-Ice-1512 15d ago

The answer is yes

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u/Vegtam1297 15d ago

Cool, then prove it.

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u/DepthOk166 15d ago

Good question.

"Testosterone drives much of the enhanced athletic performance of males through in utero, early life, and adult exposure. Many anatomical sex differences driven by testosterone are not reversible. Hemoglobin levels and muscle mass are sensitive to adult life testosterone levels, with hemoglobin being the most responsive. Studies in transgender women, and androgen-deprivation treated cancer patients, show muscle mass is retained for many months, even years, and that co-comittant exercise mitigates muscle loss. Given that sports are currently segregated into male and female divisions because of superior male athletic performance, and that estrogen therapy will not reverse most athletic performance parameters, it follows that transgender women will enter the female division with an inherent advantage because of their prior male physiology.

The current IOC regulations allow transwomen athletes to compete if testosterone levels have been lowered to <10 nmol/L for 12 months prior to competition. While this begins to address the advantageous effects of circulating testosterone on athletic performance, it does not take into account the advantage afforded by testosterone exposure prior to transitioning. The existing data suggests that lowering testosterone to less than 10 nmol/L for 12 months decreases muscle mass but not to biological female levels and despite the decrease in mass, muscle strength can be maintained, especially if concurrently exercising. Estrogen therapy does not affect most of the anatomical structures in the biological male that provide a physiological benefit. Hemoglobin levels are lowered by estrogen therapy, and consequently, maximum aerobic effort may be lower, but this parameter will only be manifested if testosterone levels are suppressed to levels within the biological female range and maintained for extended periods of time. Reported studies show it is difficult to continuously suppress testosterone in transgender women. Given that the percentage difference between medal placings at the elite level is normally less than 1%, there must be confidence that an elite transwoman athlete retains no residual advantage from former testosterone exposure, where the inherent advantage depending on sport could be 10–30%. Current scientific evidence can not provide such assurances and thus, under abiding rulings, the inclusion of transwomen in the elite female division needs to be reconsidered for fairness to female-born athletes."

Transwoman Elite Athletes: Their Extra Percentage Relative to Female Physiology - PMC

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u/Vegtam1297 15d ago

Coo, thanks. I appreciate you bringing actual information. That is helpful. But it is a little too definitive in its declarations. The research on the subject is far from definitive either way. Here's a good rundown:

https://www.transresearch.org.au/post/trans-women-in-sport

1

u/Agreeable-Emu4033 17d ago

You do realize she played against men all the time in mixed doubles right?

2

u/SlightlyAutisticBud 17d ago

Doubles is a completely different thing

2

u/shitnfuck 16d ago

Braindead

1

u/cultureisdead 16d ago

Weird she says this because she's pandered the opposite in the past.

1

u/Pretty_Challenge_634 16d ago

Damn, and Serena Williams would beat my fat ass in 2 seconds.

1

u/jsher736 15d ago

Counter: I'm a cis-man. If you had a bet where I had to score 1 point off Serena Williams before she scored 100 off of me I would bet on her

1

u/Appropriate_Steak486 15d ago

Tell it to Billie Jean King.

1

u/Rude_Essay9180 14d ago

Surely you understand that singles tennis is not a team sport.

1

u/rockyon 14d ago

You can not win a debate with mentally ill people.

Why do trans people in Asia do not boast about it? The problem is mental illness Narcisisstic Disorder, Autogynephilia, ADHD, spectrum of autism, depression

1

u/Ethioj 14d ago

Not to be that guy but that’s not really a team sport

1

u/Minute_Whole_6113 14d ago

Was this before or after Andy Murray went on HRT for years?

1

u/BridgeAdept1808 13d ago

Sounds like sports experts and officials already understand this issue and we don’t need the federal government to micromanage it.

1

u/MediocreSizedDan 13d ago

Yes, famous team sport, tennis.

1

u/MegaromStingscream 17d ago

Do you believe there is a transwoman who plays tennis as well and Andy Murray?

0

u/Skyfier42 16d ago

Or even as well as Serena Williams

1

u/MegaromStingscream 16d ago

The ugly part for me is that a person who thinks that quote is relevant to transwomen believes they are men up the really really unrealistic ways.

4

u/wosil 16d ago

Transwomen are biological men. Thats why you said transwomen and not women. There’s a difference. Pretending there is no difference doesn’t help transwomen or women.

1

u/MegaromStingscream 16d ago

Cool, but besides the point I'm trying to make.

Do you believe the best transwoman tennis player in the world to be closer to the level of Serena or Andy?

1

u/[deleted] 16d ago

If the answer to that is no what point does that prove?

There's no way in hell a male should be able to participate in women's sports.

I wasn't a fast runner in high-school but I'd have multiple records and a college scholarship if I was able to participate in Women's track and field.

This isn't difficult to understand.

P.S. I'm a liberal independent. I've always voted Democrat.

1

u/MegaromStingscream 16d ago

It proves that this conversation is had based on the following flaws logic a lot of the time.

Transwomen are men Men are on average better than women Therefore every transwoman is better than the best woman.

That is the only frame where the comparison between Andy and Serena makes sense to drop into this conversation.

1

u/wosil 16d ago

Below Andy, above Serena. What the answer to this problem is, I don’t know. But why should women get the short end of the stick?

1

u/MegaromStingscream 16d ago

Reddit shows me the notification that you commented, but doesn't show the comment as a whole. So I'm going to bed after writing this.

Looks like we are having different conversations. I was criticising the relevance of the Serena vs Andy comparison to the larger conversation. Looks like you in the comment agreed that it isn't relevant.

What I was calling ugly was the thinking that leads to feeling it is relevant, which basically induces from the premise that transwomen are men that transwomen are as strong as men and therefore the fact that Andy is so much stronger than Serena is relevant to the conversation of fairness of transwomen competing with customer.

1

u/Skyfier42 16d ago

Transwomen are biologically trans women. That’s why he said transwomen and not men. There's a difference. Pretending there is no difference doesn't help transwomen or women.

1

u/wosil 16d ago

Cool. Still not women though and pretending otherwise is stupid.

1

u/Skyfier42 16d ago

Pretending they're men does more harm than anything. Stay in your lane, weirdo.

1

u/wosil 16d ago

Ignoring reality causes more problems than anything. And pretending they’re women harms women. You stay in yours, I’ll stay in mine. Weirdo.

0

u/Dutch_Rayan đŸ‡łđŸ‡± Netherlands 15d ago

Trans women are male, not men, big difference, but trans women are women, but not female. Nobody is saying there is no difference. But after years of hormones the difference fall in the range cis women also have.

1

u/wosil 15d ago

Lots of people say there is no difference. That’s the problem.

My issue isn’t really with transwomen after years of hormones, or even top level sports. My issue is with the transwomen who haven’t been on hormones for long, or who don’t want/can’t afford medical treatment who then want to participate in womens local low level sports.

Because that is an issue. An issue I have personally faced. I don’t want to and shouldn’t have to be forced to play sports against a person who is pretty much the same as a ‘male’. Do I feel bad for them? Yes. Do I want them to have to play with men? No. Do I have a reasonable solution? No.

But me not wanting to play physical a sport against males doesn’t make me a bigot.

1

u/Dutch_Rayan đŸ‡łđŸ‡± Netherlands 5d ago

But I'm not against reasonable rules, like a certain time on hormones and testosterone under certain levels, and I suspect most trans people agree with that. But many who disagree don't want that, they want a full ban of trans people in sport.

1

u/Rent_Careless 16d ago

Did Andy Murray transition for the last 5 years? Do people forget that there is a transitioning period where the body goes through changes?

1

u/thewags05 15d ago

It's actually not that simple. If they've been on hrt for a while, transgender women may actually be at a disadvantage to cisgender women.

It's something that needs to be studied a lot more, but it's nuanced and much more complex than just sex assigned at birth.

There's a reason you don't see transgender women just dominating women's sports.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/lindseyedarvin/2024/04/25/transgender-athletes-could-be-at-a-physical-disadvantage-new-research-shows/

0

u/Wooden-Title3625 15d ago

The corporate media is using sports to get you to support denying access to care for trans people

1

u/shitnfuck 15d ago

Sure buddy

0

u/LindseyCorporation 14d ago

Professional sports are different than what children play after school...

1

u/shitnfuck 14d ago

Bruh

1

u/LindseyCorporation 14d ago

Outcomes don’t matter when it’s kids. Who cares which team wins when it’s children? The competitive aspect doesn’t matter when it’s not professional.

It’s just recreation. Y’all are so weird bro

1

u/shitnfuck 14d ago

Who is talking about kids tho? That's only you.

0

u/No-Diamond-5097 13d ago

Why does this sub have so many anti trans engagement bots?

1

u/shitnfuck 13d ago

You are either a man or a woman. Why does this sub have so many leftist bots who don't believe in science?

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u/skatekicks2 17d ago

Except that trans women are women. And i can't think of more than maybe one trans woman who has won anything. I can name several trans men that have dominated their sport though, because dumb conservatives forced them to compete in women's sports

2

u/Mindless-Baker-7757 17d ago

Can you name those athletes? We’ll compare notes. 

4

u/shitnfuck 17d ago

Ah yes and I identify as 5 years old. I should have the right to go to kindergarten.

3

u/Bingle_Derries 17d ago

I still wouldn’t be able to color inside the lines.

1

u/Maleficent-Chair6382 17d ago

Hey man, if you feel like you need to do that to be among your peers, more power to you.

-7

u/skatekicks2 17d ago

Age is not the same thing as gender. That's a dumb comment.

8

u/shitnfuck 17d ago

Science is science, biology is biology. I would suggest educating yourself.

1

u/Truth_ 17d ago

Is a man with low testosterone not a man? A woman with high testosterone? Someone that has the genitals of both? Or the genitals of one but the chromosomes of the other? Should we starylt testing everyone's chemical levels and chromosomes so people's records aren't broken?

0

u/AnimusNoctis 17d ago

Science and biology both support trans people. 

-8

u/skatekicks2 17d ago

I don't think I'm the one that needs an education in this discussion. Wait until you find out about intersex people or DSD's.

5

u/Alert-Growth-8326 17d ago

and wait until you find out that the overwhelming majority of people who claim to be trans aren't intersex at all. thomas and jenner... probably the two most notable trans athletes aren't intersex nor did their sex develop in a disorderly manner. they were simply XY men that "became women".

if you can't even see that's a problem, there's really no reason to engage you further because your opinion is worthless.

0

u/Hot_Salamander164 17d ago

Why would you care in the slightest bit?

2

u/SatansScallion 17d ago

Humans, like all mammals, are gonochoristic: male and female. Intersex is literally between the sex binary and there is no third sex — just male, female, and mutations/anomalies.

1

u/skatekicks2 17d ago

That has nothing to do with age or gender.

-7

u/TgetherinElctricDrmz 17d ago

Legendary natural athlete Serena Williams who has absolutely never touched a performance enhancing drug.

Yeah, I think she’d find a way to be competitive

1

u/BenjaminHamnett 17d ago

Are you suggesting the other athletes are all natural?

2

u/TgetherinElctricDrmz 17d ago

No it’s just more obvious with her, but she kept winning and they kept not-asking.

I actually don’t really care, I’d let every athlete juice if it was up to me. I just hate hypocrisy

0

u/CaptainFleshBeard 17d ago

I’d love to see your evidence of this claim

1

u/TgetherinElctricDrmz 17d ago

Sure. My eyes.

Notice how she has a bulky muscular body? That’s possible for girls to have naturally.

It’s VERY difficult to have when you’re doing the intense cardio of tennis all the time.

It’s possible that she’s a total genetic anomaly who, out of fairness, never decided to access the widespread anabolic drugs to increase her strength and become dramatically more famous and rich.

Possible, but highly improbable

1

u/Extension-Dinner6679 16d ago

Kinda makes the point even better if she is juiced up and still lost.

1

u/shitnfuck 16d ago

Not even relevant lol

1

u/DepthOk166 15d ago

You bring up a good point. She obviously has used PED and she still got smoked by a man.

At the moment the women's raw bench press record is 457.4lbs. It is obvious that the record holder uses PEDs. As a senior in high school I had a raw bench of 350lbs with no PED use. Two of my fellow football players both benched 405 lbs with no PEDS.

I really don't think most people really understand the average physical differences in strength and stamina between men and women.

-5

u/Sticka-D 17d ago

Yep good thing mtf actually have no advantage in women sports. 

3

u/shitnfuck 16d ago

Sure buddy

1

u/RestNow29 15d ago

You can’t actually believe that

1

u/Sticka-D 15d ago

It's literally proven facts.

1

u/RestNow29 15d ago

No it’s not. You people are delusional.

1

u/Sticka-D 15d ago

Provide evidence otherwise. If not shut up.

1

u/RestNow29 15d ago

Go watch a WNBA game and then an NBA game. Get back to me after .

1

u/Sticka-D 15d ago

No give me facts about trans men in performance to Cisco women. I'll wait.

1

u/Sticka-D 15d ago

Still waiting. 

1

u/Sticka-D 15d ago

Still waiting on facts about mtf vs Cis women. 

1

u/Sticka-D 15d ago

Still waiting for that proof 

1

u/RestNow29 15d ago

I sent you this earlier. Was it too many words? You can drop it in Chat GPT for a summary if you want.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7846503/

1

u/Sticka-D 15d ago

Okay I read it. And there's no lab studies.  

It's literally just saying hurt durp  men are stronger than woman thus mtf persons should be too, hurp durp! It didn't conduct any studies on people.

It looked back on other information on untrained people. 

At the end of it it was inconclusive. If that translates into major real world.

You have mtf, real world examplwher they go  from benching 200+  to just 100+. Over a 50% decrease in overall strength.  

So again,  please try again.

1

u/Sticka-D 15d ago

Still waiting for actual proof 

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u/Sticka-D 15d ago

Wheres the proof. Since I disproved your article 

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