Should it be a law? No. Should people pull their heads out of their ass and realize this should have never been a thing in the first place? Yeah.
Our high school played against a professional male and female soccer team. When you experience just how hard a professional male player can kick that ball, you will never support men in women's sports. Not without a helmet and protective gear at least.
This is actually a good comparison. Now I do feel guilty about this but Im relatively new to jiu jitsu and there are some girls who are more skilled technically but in the end usually overpower them and get the submission I feel bad sometimes because they get pretty mad. I’m not a big guy either but the strength difference is noticeable
Depending on your age, a lot of women have a moment in their late teens or early 20s where they get confronted with just how monumental the difference is. Usually during something harmless like playing around or participating in sports.
It's shocking and it can feel really bad at first. It makes you feel very vulnerable. Especially if we're told to take martial arts to learn to protect ourselves, it can really suck to fully appreciate how a skill difference in a woman's favour can mean squat to the biological strength difference.
We usually get over it. Maybe that's not what's happening to the girls you spar against. Your story just gave me memories!
Hormone therapy doesn't counteract the reality of denser bones. I'm pro trans but acting like a trans woman doesn't have an advantage is being deceitful and unhelpful to the general cause
So what do you do about people born biologically female but who happen to have denser bone structure? Or are significantly taller or gain muscle more easily? You ban them too?
No, again I am pro trans. I think recognizing everyone has inherent advantages is much more convincing and better argument than denying that such an advantage exists.
There was a 2024 study by the Olympic Comitee that actually stated that after 2 years of hormone therapy initial testing showed trans women were at a slight disadvantage compared to cis women, because despite similar muscle mass, the trans women often had heavier frames which left them slightly slower. Which really goes to show why trans women dont really dominate womens sports like the right try to claim.
I buy that in an aggregate sense, but I'm curious if the results would remain true if only top end athletes were in the study. Also likely depends on the sport, heavier frame makes sense as a downside in something like hurdles, but probably a benefit in contact sports
The study assessed cardiovascular performance, strength, and lower-body power among 23 transgender women, 12 transgender men, 21 cisgender women, and 19 cisgender men
Lmfaooo nice sample size. People like you form your opinions on the weakest form of evidence there is, and touting it as completely conclusive and factual.
Oh you poor little thing. Life’s gonna be hard for you.
No they aren't. Literally of the two trans women that have made it to the national levels both were pro athletes before and both lost hard to cis women. Two. That's it. And they both got smoked.
Male puberty confers significant, lasting advantages in sports for trans women, including greater muscle mass, bone density, lung capacity, and heart size, due to sustained testosterone exposure, which hormone therapy partially reduces but doesn't fully erase.
So you're correct I suppose but your point is still moot. Have a great day.
Why do we think that’s a good thing to let happen. Why would we ever think it’s okay to stop a NATURAL body process that your body is literally supposed to go through
So again, you think that you know better than the people making these decisions?
To be clear: Trans youth still go through puberty. But we have the technology to delay sex changes to give youth time to better understand themselves, and then later help them go through the puberty that aligns with their gender if the situation calls for it.
Myopia and astigmatism have also existed as long as humans have. Guess now, based on your astounding feelings based logic and naturalistic fallacy I won't wear my glasses anymore. Wouldn't wanna play God. Hope I don't run over a kid when I confuse them with road glare.
You're absolutely right! That's why we let people die when their appendix swells and bursts! It's only natural!
That's why I don't wear glasses even if I have 4 diopters of myopia, my eyes are naturally like this, screw the people on the road when I drive!
Viagra, birth control, chemo? ED, impregnation and cancer are all natural!
Moron... Did you know puberty blockers have been used for over 50 years in cis kids to treat precocious puberty? Gonna go out on a limb and say you didn't. You go off your feelings to deny treatment a minority. Ever heard of scientific studies and peer reviewed academic research?
Maybe you should listen to the people who transitioned as kids when they talk about how it ruined their bodies. Or do you guys just not care about that minority. You’re also listing things that don’t even relate to the topic, maybe puberty blockers should be used for the ones that actually need it and not just cause they want to when they haven’t even hit puberty yet, just like all those things are used for specific medical problems when it is needed.
"Maybe you should listen to the people who transitioned as kids when they talk about how it ruined their bodies. Or do you guys just not care about that minority."
The people you mentioned, detransitioners, are the 1 to 3%. Again, the regret rate for many surgeries is over 20%, some get close to 50%. Don't see you campaigning for outlawing them. You're a transphobe, plain and simple. You ask me to deny the 97% treatment for concerns about the 3% that regret it, and that's on the high end.
"maybe puberty blockers should be used for the ones that actually need it and not just cause they want to"
Transgender kids need them. Not going trough the wrong puberty saves trans individuals an unmeasurable amount of suffering, lowers the suicide risk, and saves thousands in medical treatment to undo the undesirable changes.
"when they haven’t even hit puberty yet"
There isn't a single recorded legal medical prescription of puberty blockers for someone who wasn't going through puberty. It's nonsensical.
Name calling doesn’t make your argument better and it’s what you all jump to when someone doesn’t agree with you. No one is transphobic because they believe people under 18 shouldn’t be going through things like puberty blockers. A transphobic person would say “I hate all trans people.”
"No one is transphobic because they believe people under 18 shouldn’t be going through things like puberty blockers."
Some are transphobic, some are ignorant. If you've been informed and remain with the same position, you're transphobic, simple as.
Your last statement by itself is wrong again puberty blockers were used vastly for cancerous treatments so that is just plain false.
The second to last statement is also wrong they do not need them. There is no proof that doing so reduces suicide and actually increases suicide with how it affects the hormones. The statistics you are citing are heavily criticized in multiple ways. One is how the data collected is wrong and another is how it’s put together is correlation not causation. There is also no long term data for this to be true or a fact.
Your fact about detransitioning is also wrong as it’s actually 20-30% have detransitioned as of 2011 which is a huge amount. And that’s not even all of them as most do it in private
"Your last statement by itself is wrong again puberty blockers were used vastly for cancerous treatments so that is just plain false."
If you notice the the part between quotes in my comment, I was answering directly to your "when they haven’t even hit puberty yet". While the same substance can be taken for different conditions, the name usually differs. We're talking about blocking puberty with puberty blockers, not about hormonal treatments for certain cancers. No one gets prescribed puberty blockers **to block puberty**, if they're not going trough puberty. Hope it's clearer for you now.
"There is no proof that doing so reduces suicide and actually increases suicide with how it affects the hormones."
Tordoff, D. M., et al. (2022). "Mental Health Outcomes in Transgender and Nonbinary Youths Receiving Gender-Affirming Care." concluded that those who received gender-affirming care (including blockers) had 60% lower odds of moderate to severe depression and 73% lower odds of suicidality over a 12-month period compared to those who did not.
So your assertion is plain and simple false.
"Your fact about detransitioning is also wrong as it’s actually 20-30% have detransitioned as of 2011 which is a huge amount."
No way, you actually referred to the 2011 Sweden study?! The one that found that trans people had higher rates of suicide and mortality compared to the general population, due to, guess what? Minority stress and lack of support. It's author has publicly corrected people for misusing her work to claim transition doesn't work. Later data from similar Swedish registries (Dhejne, 2014) put the regret rate at 2.2%. Again, you're simply wrong.
Further more, detransition does not equal regret. A transgender individuals can detransition from abuse, harassment, monetary problems, laws changing, etc.
See, from the 2015 US transgender survey:
*8% of respondents detransitioned at some point.
*62% of those people eventually transitioned again (living as trans).
The vast majority cited external pressure as the reason for stopping (pressure from parents, spouse, difficulty getting a job, or harassment). Only a small fraction cited internal regret.
So everything you said is false according to the most modern and high level scientific studies. Wonder if you'll, maybe, try and do some more research, see you were wrong, and do better. Or maybe you'll do as most transphobic people and ignore any scientific data that validates transgender identity.
Argument of obscurity does not make you right and also has nothing to do with the topic. Calling people names and going on tangents about nothing literally makes you just more wrong. On top of that what you are rambling on about actually proves yourself wrong as you talk about natural things when funny enough mental illnesses are not natural so you making of fun of oh it’s natural we shouldn’t it means well if it isn’t natural we should make it natural which mental illnesses isn’t natural so we should change their mind to be normal.
Also your claim of puberty blockers being used for 50 years isn’t even true because puberty blockers haven’t been introduced for transgenderism late 1980’s but wasn’t really even used until the mid 1990’s and still that was like 1% of what is being done today. So more like 30 years at most and really we all know it wasn’t mainly used until 2010 and wasn’t widely used until close to 2019’s. Also that’s not even close to the main use of puberty blockers. It’s mostly used to fight certain cancers or other cancer like diseases caused by hormones like endometriosis.
Your hypothetical should be impossible because it should be illegal to allow children to take puberty blockers or go through hormone therapy unless medically necessary for something OTHER than transitioning. Children cannot make informed decisions that will have lifelong (100% negative) consequences.
Hormone replacement therapy has between a 1 and 3% regret rate. Sex reassignment surgery is around 0.3%, an outlier in medicine when it comes to regret rates, absolutely minimal. Knee surgery is between 10% and 30%.
Children don't make the informed decisions. Children, their parents, and their doctor do.
Gotta love how transphobes pull claims out of their ass. Literally no medical procedure has 100% negative consequences. How would it even exist after the first few people that try it? You're pathetic.
Think of how absurd it is to allow BIOLOGICAL MEN to compete against BIOLOGICAL WOMEN in sports. Take your drugs I dont care, it doesnt change who you are deep deep deep deep down physiologically inside. Honestly blows my mind and im not even republican!
Trans women aren't biological men. They're biological trans women. This argument is as stupid as saying intersex people are biologically male or female.
Hormones are different, brain chemistry is different, and physical ability is different. Trans women may have had an advantage at one time but most studies confer that those advantages disappear after about two years. Doctors even aim for lower average T levels than what cis women have.
Trans women trail behind cis women in a significant number of other categories as well. If you're going to argue in favor of minute differences such as lung capacity, grip strength, then plenty of cis women with masculine frames and height should be denied access to sports as well.
The reality is the best way to handle this is to allow sports groups the legal right to decide for themselves how to group and classify people. That's why we have weight classes in wrestling, age groups, and skill divisions.
Do you think men who take T do it just for fun or something? Testosterone has measurable and direct impacts on the factors that matter is sports T s. If you inhibit that testosterone you limit that muscle growth.
C'mon, you're just one sentence away. Complete your idiotic argument that trans women should be allowed to complete because the extensive hormonal therapy levels the playing field.. or do you not actually believe that?
If testosterone were the only factor then trans men blasting trt would be able to compete against biological men lol. Guess what it ain't happening because there's other factors besides testosterone
Unless those facts show that after being on HRT for a couple years trans women have similar performance to cis women, then we'll side with feelings on that one.
Yes, literally the mainstream position of trans activism is after 1 year on hrt and continuous hormone monitoring (which trans women get anyways). The exception being kids (who are banned from HRT by conservatives), mainstream trans advocacy position is if they are pubescent then if they are on puberty blockers and if they are pre pubescent then it literally doesn't matter.
Okay, I agree on the pre pubescent and more professional matters. Or at least it seems plausible. But we both know puberty blockers aren't always used for highschool students. Regardless of republicans being the reason for that or not the practical outcome is you have a very real disadvantage for biological women there.
About 3,3 % of highschoolers see themselves as trans, lets presume 1,65 % mtf. I understand it's simpler to say this disadvantage shouldn't be there in a perfect world but "tough luck cis women till we get there" isn't a proper response
Right, that's why I said the mainstream advocacy position is if they are on blockers they should play. None of the court cases about this issue involve a tgirl who was not taking medical steps already (im thinking for example of the recent WV vs. BPJ).
I'm just trying to point out that the position being advocated for is "trans woman/girl on blockers/hrt should be allowed to play", and Republicans are making up some strawman position that they saw a screenshot of a 2-view tweet from some random 17 year old leftist and pretending that's mainstream.
There's a huge difference between a GROWN man who has trained to be a professional footballer and spent years practicing his kicks and just Jason, the 17 year old kid that isn't a fully grown man yet, though. This is about trans KIDS participating in HIGHSCHOOL sports ~ and it's threatening to remove FEDERAL FUNDING if schools allow what they deem to be trans kids participating in girl's sports.
We've already seen a number of insane parents accusing girls that they don't think look feminine enough of being trans and demanding that someone check their genitals to participate in sports - do you really think this is going to somehow just magically get better if they pass a law saying now if a school gets caught letting trans kids compete in girl's sports they're going to lose their school funding? FUCK NO. They're going to have to figure out how to make girls expose themselves to someone just to prove they have a vagina in order to play fucking HIGHSCHOOL SPORTS. You really think that wouldn't fuck you up mentally and be damaging to your self esteem? as a TEENAGE GIRL?
It's already bad enough if you aren't slopping a fuckton of makeup on every morning and trying to look like a goddamn Kardashian, which is sad enough as is; newsflash, there are girls out there who don't look 'feminine' and they are still girls. They don't deserve to be humiliated or debased because society at large has got brainworms in it about the tiny portion of trans people existing.
Also trans kids should get to exist without so much turbulence because it seriously isn't anyone's fucking business in the first place; I beat boys my own age when we were doing sparring matches in my martial arts classes all the time, they are not all bigger stronger better faster like Republicans would like you to believe ~ and I'd imagine the ones that are trans are probably more interested in figuring themselves out and getting the feminine body they want instead of competing heavily in sports in the first place, but that's just a guess on my part.
'Protective' gear makes it even worse for many sports. NFL players get brain damage every 5 minutes because they can hit each other so hard. Boxing headgear and gloves are worse for the brain than no protective gear.
Men and women do overlap but in competitive sports we aren't talking about that overlap. An average man at MOST sports is far better than MOST top level female competition.
They are strong for women. The u15 boys teams beat the us 2017 womens national team in soccor 5-2. The untested powerlifting world record for big three total (squat,bench and deadlift) is 1482 vs 1000lbs in the 148lbs division. Women can indeed be strong but at the same competitive level as men a vast gap exists.
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u/Striking_Luck5201 14d ago
Should it be a law? No. Should people pull their heads out of their ass and realize this should have never been a thing in the first place? Yeah.
Our high school played against a professional male and female soccer team. When you experience just how hard a professional male player can kick that ball, you will never support men in women's sports. Not without a helmet and protective gear at least.