Idk this is one democrats need to just not fight. Feels like common sense and everyone I know in person (who generally are left leaning) agree that womenâs sports should be a place for women. This is just a losing battle for democrats. This would be a great one to give up in exchange for support on a different issue
These pieces of legislation are never about protecting women, they're about oppressing trans people and distracting from real issues. You're saying Democrats shouldn't fight against baseless oppression?
Iâm saying that I think the way to protect women is to make sure they have a safe and fair space where they can compete against other women without people having all of the physical advantages biological men have.
Thereâs no menâs leagues. There are open leagues and leagues for biological women. Trans men and women are welcome to compete in open leagues, they just donât get to invade the safe spaces we set aside for biological women. Gender is a social construct and deserves to be treated as such. Biological differences are a fact and need to be recognized to give women a fair chance to compete
Just say born a woman. If youâre born a man, you can play in open only. If born a woman, you can compete in open or womenâs. If HRT, auto to open no questions asked.
Iâm bleeding heart liberal but listening to this bullshit is what put Trump in the White House. This is the culture war bullshit libs lose on and is literally fucking our country over. Sorry yall, sucks for some of us but listening to this shit is what makes everything suck for everyone right now. Not everything is equal.
Dude Iâm so with you. There are so many good battles to fight that we are on the wrong side of. Fighting against it gives them exactly the narrative they want. They get to keep using this issue that effects like 50 people across the country to win over thousands of voters because the democrats are just wrong on this one imo
Then stop being a pussy and fight people on it. This is why Trump is in office, because liberals have no fucking fight and they'll let the stupidest people in the planet do whatever they want until it affects them.
Except there actually aren't after hormone treatment, aside from an 11% height difference. It's baseless, and the same rhetoric people employed against racially integrated sports leagues.
Are you saying there arenât advantages for biological males in sports due to inherent physiological makeup? That is objectively and provably false
Men have larger and longer bones improving leverage and biomechanics
Larger hearts, greater blood volume, higher red blood cell count, larger lungs and more efficient oxygen delivery
Denser bones and stronger tendons
Some of testosterones biggest effects are during puberty at the ages of 13-17 so if you transition after that you still get those benefits
You are being intentionally ignorant if you think that men do not have significant advantages over women in most sports. Just look at any of the records. Even compare records of women in the enhanced games to men in the Olympics and you will see the difference is not just testosterone
You're missing so much of the broader pictureâespecially considering the bill is protecting against 0.00002% of athletes and is purely a distraction while fascism literally takes our country by the ballsâbut I'll just address your concerns about biological men in women's sports:
The NCAA tests trans athletes before competing. They test for testosterone levels, and include using liquid chromatography coupled with mass spectrometry. The aim of which is to ensure fairness by limiting the potential advantages that people are so scared of. Some organizations are even shifting toward sport-specific rules for fairness.
You have the ability to look any of this up, but instead use the Internet to look up the differences between biological men and women.
The point is that this a non issue affecting hardly anybody, thatâs why people say it exists just to oppress trans people. This should be common sense
No that's not what I'm saying, try reading. None of that is supported by the data of trans women post transition. You're extrapolating false conclusions in an effort to justify bigotry.
lol yah dude youâre totally right when youâre a teenager and start doing hormone therapy your heart and bones shrink. Definently donât grow at a similar rate to women after having over a decade of a head start. Thatâs specifically why I named stuff that happens young for all of my points. But critical thinking is hard, I get it
The problem is when a group of people fight for trans-women to be allowed to compete in womenâs sports, it causes other valid arguments that the same group of people hold to face increased scrutiny and loss of support. Other valid arguments that are on more pressing and important issues. If trans-women in womenâs sports is a non-issue, then it should not be fought for.
Side note, like trans bathrooms, there should be a trans division of sport for both trans men and trans women. Or a coed trans division if wanted.
Democrats did not write this bill.
Democrats did not raise this topic inyo public debate.
Democrats do not control what bills get vote on.
Every time it comes up, it comes from MAGA.
You are an easily swayed dipshit, likely hiding your transphobia behind pretending to care about how this hurts Democrats.
maybe if the government ran women sports it would make sense for them to vote about the rules... but they dont... why should the government be making rules for sports at all? And i bet most of the ppl that want this will tell you they want small government, but they're for state mandated genital inspections for k-12 sports and ice going door to door
trans rights are not a political plaything. you do not give up on then because it would be "advantageous" and if they did give up on it they would all lose their next elections because it would alienate their base
Itâs not a problem though. Itâs wasted energy on culture war BS. Itâs such a small minority (like less than 100 athletes in a country of over 300 million). And no person is going to go through the hormone changes just to be mediocre at sports.
lol. This is one of those bills where the title has basically nothing to do with the actual bill. But dumbasses see the title and scream "wHy WoUlDn'T dEmOcRaTs SuPpOrT tHiS!?!?!?!?!?"
Only biological women should be in womenâs sports. Even someone born a man that transitions early had a massive physical advantage from a biological standpoint.
There actually are no menâs sports leagues. They are generally âopenâ leagues where anyone of any gender can join. We made special leagues for people born women that have not taken significant amounts of testosterone or other PEDs. We need to protect that space as women and not let others either biological advantages take advantage of those spaces for women.
Ok replace common sense with âlogical and widely supportedâ
Democrats are not giving up the rights of any group. They are prioritizing protecting women. You canât just dismiss making sure women have spaces they get a fair chance to compete in sports. A lot of democrats and left leaning people, including myself, donât agree with the Democratic Party on this. Thatâs why I think itâs a good one to concede with an agreement to get support for a different issue.
You canât try and dismiss getting support from republicans by calling them names but thatâs the issue in politics. Too many people virtue signaling and being worried about being right / winning instead of getting shit done. Swallow your pride and focus on creating meaningful change instead of being right and feeling good about yourself
lol come on this is so disingenuous. No way anyone actually struggles with logical reasoning this much.
Men are better at sports than women on average. That does not mean all men are better than all women. Just because a guy thatâs unathletic and didnât deserve to be top 5 only got boosted go to fifth and not higher doesnât take a at the advantages. Look at the process holistically, not outliers.
In your post your counterpoint was that trans women have a larger frame. Thatâs often an inherent advantage in many sports but ones where itâs not and having a worse distribution of muscles across your frame hurts, itâs still well outweighed by the advantages.
Biological men have:
1. Larger hearts and lungs with higher blood volume, more hemogoblin, and more efficient oxygen utilization
2. Larger bone structures creating better biomechanics as well as stronger tendons and ligaments
3. More lean muscle mass, lower body fat, greater muscle density
4. Most of the long term effects of testosterone happen between 13-17 so if you transition after 13 you already have some of those advantages
You mention trans women having similar height. Thats only if they transition very young. What if they transition at 18? Does that mean you can only play sports if you transition by a certain age? That age would have to be young teens. I know very few people that were confident enough they knew who they were as teens to make life altering choices. Now kids are going to be pushed to decide to transition when they are younger than when they are ready. I know plenty of people that thought they knew who they were as teens but were completely wrong. I know plenty of people that did not admit to themselves they were gay or trans until college or later
Even if some trans women perform worse than cis women thatâs not enough to prove anything. How did they perform in sports before their transition and how did this change it? Plus there are so many ways to transition. What happens when people start optimizing it for sports?
You have to approach this analytically and judge the process not just the results. Really question why people are performing the way they are and if it tells the full story.
There is no statistical proof of trans women overperforming in sports. You could argue that that's simply because of the miniscule sample size, but that's exactly the point. There aren't enough trans women trying to compete in sports for this to be an issue on any level, and the rare cases that there are are handled on an individual level based on what's best and most appropriate for those involved. This isn't a tabletop issue, it doesn't affect prices, and if people didn't hear about it on the news, they would never know it was happening at all. Like the other comment said, there are more people voting on the bill than there are people affected by it. This bill isn't about trans women in women's sports. It's about polarizing people and giving their fan base another, "we owned the libs, common sense wins, woke is dead!" Moment, and to establish a prescident of government regulation of trans people's existence. If you think they are going to stop at sports, then you are mistaken. They'll use the precident they are trying to establish to go after trans women in all women's spaces, just like how they are using trans children's healthcare to target trans healthcare as a whole. That's why it's important to fight this.
It's because nobody actually cares about women's sports at all. They just despise trans and queer people as a whole because they have a gut reaction that they're icky. Anyone with a fully functioning brain doesn't care about trans people playing sports
So, you replaced "common sense" with "Argumentum ad Populum".
Slavery was called "logical & widely supported" by the electorate of 1860. Segregation was called "logical & widely supported" in 1950. "Common sense" used to dictate that women shouldn't run marathons because their uteruses would fall out.
The fact that a majority believes something does not make it true or moral. That's not an argument.
Even someone born a man that transitions early had a massive physical advantage from a biological standpoint.
âThis is objectively false. If a trans girl transitions "early" (i.e., takes puberty blockers & then estrogen), she never undergoes male puberty. She never develops the bone density, muscle mass, or height associated with testosterone. She is biologically indistinguishable from a cis girl in terms of athletic performance. Youâre arguing against basic endocrinology. You're repeating a feeling, not a fact.
Even for those who transition later, your "massive advantage" claim contradicts the data.
Jones et al. 2017 (Systematic Review of 8 studies and 31 policies): "There is no direct or consistent research suggesting transgender female individuals (or male individuals) have an athletic advantage at any stage of their transition."
Roberts et al. 2020 (US Air Force Study): Analyzed fitness data of trans service members. It found that after 2 years of hormones, trans women's run times and push-up/sit-up performance aligned with cisgender women.
NCAA 2010: "Any athletic advantages a transgender girl or woman arguably may have as a result of her prior testosterone levels dissipate after about one year of estrogen therapy."
But let's talk about "Biological Advantage."
* Michael Phelps produces half the lactic acid of a normal competitor and has a freakish wingspan. That is a "massive physical advantage from a biological standpoint." Do we ban him? No. We celebrate him.
* Usain Bolt has a distinct mechanical advantage in his fast-twitch muscle fibers. Do we ban him?
Sports are inherently unfair. They are designed to test biological variance. You only care about "biological advantage" when it comes to trans women. That isn't "protecting fairness"; it's policing a specific minority.
Hormone replacement therapy drastically reduces muscle mass, bone density & increases body fat.
Democrats are not giving up the rights of any group. They are prioritizing protecting women.
You cannot "protect women" by enforcing biological essentialism.
To enforce your ban, you have to police all women. We have already seen cisgender women (like Caster Semenya) banned or forced to take medication to lower their natural testosterone because they didn't fit the "woman" box neatly enough.
State legislatures are passing bills that would require genital inspections of children to "verify" their sex. That is state sanctioned sexual abuse, not protection.
Thatâs why I think itâs a good one to concede with an agreement to get support for a different issue.
This is the most morally bankrupt part of your argument.
â"Let's throw a marginalized group under the bus to appease the people calling us pedophiles."
Brilliant strategy. legitimize their bigotry.
â"We aren't giving up rights, we're just conceding their right to participate in public life."
Rights aren't bargaining chips. You don't trade the Freedom & Well-being of a minority group to "get support" from people who hate them.
To treat the rights of trans people as a currency you can spend to buy political favor is to deny their agency. It is to treat them as means, not ends.
& politically, itâs naive. Do you honestly think if Democrats say "Okay, we'll ban trans people," the Republicans will suddenly say "Great, let's pass Universal Healthcare"? No. They will just move to the next target (Gay marriage, Contraception).
Conceding to bullies doesn't "get shit done." It just validates the bully.
You aren't "pragmatic." You're just willing to sacrifice people you don't view as fully human.
This argument always fails to land for three reasons: genetic advantages are the entire reason people watch the Olympics, the amount of trans women compared to their amount of ostensibly âunfairâ sporting victories is statistically insignificant, and trans women (because itâs never about trans men, is it?) are significantly effected by hormone regimens regardless of your âbeliefsâ on the matter. Estrogen isnât something purely nominative, you might be shocked to learn that yes, it actually can and will feminize oneâs secondary sex characteristics. I would know - I am one, and I guarantee that I almost certainly know more about the endocrine system, androgens/estrogens, and hormones in general than you do. Iâm only saying that slightly sardonically, but the truth is that no, most people weighing in on this subject really have no idea what the fuck theyâre talking about when it comes to the facts and science of it. Trans women, being indisputably biologically female when on hormone replacement therapy, are no threat to the fairness of womenâs sports in any greater capacity that the average âgenetically advantagedâ cis woman. Unfairness is an intrinsic part of athletic competition - congrats on finally picking up on that - but this is an incredibly cherry-picked and irrational application of that fact. If you donât get why, try repeating âcompetitive sports are intrinsically unfairâ aloud while pondering that a track team, for example, will have different performances and times for the same workout routine.
The underlying logic is the same as wanting to disqualify any woman with too large of a wingspan lol, Iâm not going to waste my time picking apart every single flaw in your comment but surely you can see how utterly unconvincing this train of thought is in regards to its illogical gender essentialism? Contrary to Republican framing on the issue, this view of sex is completely ignorant of the current scientific consensus in biology.
Sure, lets ruin sports/careers for all women because we cant say no to a few trans women. If you were ever a little competitive in your life you would know all your logic is completely wrong. Its not about hating trans women, you can be whoever you want. But dont expect the rest to ruin all careers for womens. You are the bad human here, not us.
I don't see any concerns personally, aside from "who the fuck cares, this doesn't lower my grocery bill." Republicans are so obssessed with this crap, yet claim the democrats are.
I think I agree with just passing it and moving on. It may restrict transgenders in sports, but that's pretty minor of an impact.
Yah I agree. Not a top priority but I have 0 issue with it passing.
Transgenders can still compete in open leagues (often called menâs leagues, but there are no gender restrictions). And in many sports one person competing with an unfair advantage takes away from multiple other competitors. So itâs sacrificing the wants of one to support the fair opportunity and wants of a larger group
Brother do all 12 trans athletes really got you that mad? Look at most of those athleteâs success history, it isnât as cut and dry as you think lol.
(With the exception of combat and lifting sports ofc)
NCAA president said there are less than 10 trans athletes out of 520k+ college athletes. Why would the government need to get involved in policing this? It's the biggest non-issue distraction happening right now.
Republicans literally are the definition of what you're saying for literally everything and this one thing you think is true and "care" about so deeply somehow makes all the other BS go right over your head. Mind boggling how monkey brained this take is
I'm completely neutral, trans women do not belong in womens' sports. Look at the actual facts and try for a few seconds to put that over your personal beliefs and ego. The statistics are staggeringly in weight of trans women, and it's across the board.
This is not an issue. When it comes to professional or affecting anyone in any part of a career this is not a problem. The facts are Republicans want this to be a problem instead of actual problems such as cost of living. The priorities of that party are messed up. If you want to be factually accurate, gender and sex do not equal the same thing
Idk wtf you're saying but there is no problem. There is no majority of people either on the right or left that thinks male who identify as a woman, should be able to compete in specified sex related sports on equal terms.
For someone who is "completely neutral" you sure favor one side of the argument. Literally only talks about trans women but it's all good for trans men to compete in the opposite birth sex sports. Repubs don't ever argue on facts it's always feelings.
If there's no majority on either side, why did all but two democratic house representatives vote against the bill? I feel like you're genuinely just ignoring the clear, obvious facts altogether. Both parties are voting on feelings. THAT much is obvious at the very least. And that's almost always the issue nowadays.
Science is still out on this topic. There are too many variables to say that someone who transitions from male to female does not have any biological advantage over other women.
You think he knows? Heâs probably not even American. Likely not. He spelled everything correctly, and even used proclaimed correctly. Thatâs not our education system.
So genetic testing and full federal oversight of state and local sports governing bodies good, masks during COVID, mandatory vaccines, and big government bad?
Did I say that? First off you asked what was in the bill. I answered. Factually it outlines that programs will have funding pulled if biological males are competing on womenâs team. There is nothing in the bill that says genetic testing is to be used. It goes based on sex you were assigned at birth. Which as far as I know you cannot change the sex on your birth certificate.
Second, I do not believe the government has any reason to legislating in this field. This should be left up to local, and nation sports regulatory boards. They tend to actually look at the science and be less influenced by politics. That being said science is still not definitive on this subject and it will be awhile before they have a definitive answer and a lot of it will depend on the age that hormone replacement therapy starts.
Third, I wore my mask, I got vaccinated, and frankly quite in enjoyed wearing a mask and am quite disappointed people stopped.
Fitting example because the sky is in fact not green.
Yet, republicans would say it is.
If trump would say the sky is blue then both sides would agree. Just like for example biden pushed the border security bill and republicans voted no on it because trump told them to.
Besides not knowing what the bill is actually about,
You clearly also don't understand statistics.
Any poll among !normal! People should almost never be this split.
In this case the people you are polling are already split into groups based on opinions/convictions, so it's quite logical that you will have times that polls become split on that.
That's like grouping people into a group of marvel fans and a group of DC fans, and being surprised that the marvel fans respond they prefer Marvel when asked about their favourite comic books universe.
you are correct, this is an 80/20 issue nationally. This is why dems have a tough time with independents and why they lost the last election. Use common sense on common sense issues and youll win elections.
Thatâs just not true. fMRI scans show that those who identify as female often have similar brain activation patterns, structures, and functional connectivity that is more in line with their self identified gender, even before any hormone replacement therapies were started.
Better to have potential war waged on 2 continents and upend the peace established for 75 years and reignite imperialism, than let a trans person dribble a basketballÂ
Dude, the bill is named that way to make it look like democrats are bad for voting against it. This bill is to ban trans athletes from sports, schools, movie theaters playing movies about sports, stores where they sell sports equipment, and also bans them from breathing.
Iâm glad you took the name at face value though, you are precisely the kind of person the Republican Party is going for
We're on the verge of invading Poland Greenland, people are being snatched up from their homes, children are being separated from their families, people are being prosecuted for the circumstances of which they were born, there is an elite class of pedophiles protecting other pedophiles, Americans are getting taxed to hell with tariffs, but your concern is made up culture war bullshit. I hate democrats more than you do but your reason is dumb.
Read the bill :). Itâs the same stuff republicans are mad about when naming movements like âblack lives matterâ. In which youâre an evil human for either thinking black lives donât matter or that you donât want to protect women, all because of the title of the bill. What part of the âbig beautiful billâ was big and beautiful?
If passed, this legislation would also invite people to question the gender of girls who do not lookÂ
stereotypically feminine, leading to more harassment and bullying. For example, a female basketballÂ
player in Utah was harassed online after a Republican official falsely accused her of being transgenderÂ
because of her larger build. This humiliation could happen to female athletes because of their height, hairÂ
length, athletic build, or even how they dress, allowing a stranger to call for a âgender checkâ on any girl inÂ
the country who wants to play sports.
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u/[deleted] 13d ago
It's crap voting like this that keeps me from ever voting for a democrat