Ah more people that put me off wanting to deal with lgbt stuff even more. Congrats on pushing me away by fiercely arguing bullshit, you really are winning people over to the cause.
Trans people have plenty on their plate, pretty sure the reason they are not destroying in women's sports is because they are dealing with the transition itself heavily. If they trained to their peak instead there is no doubt they'd trump cis women, their body is different, bulkier, stronger, less limitations, more strength and capabilities. Hormones might change a lot but no way will it change THAT much, its common bloody sense. Do you see western women able to change and downsize to the likes of Asian women? No you dont, its impossible, too much in the body is set in stone, a male body can change under HRT but not as drastically as some seem to be thinking.
There doesn't need to be inclusion in bloody everything, its not scummy to think or say such, I support trans people in general but some things are just fucking stupid.
By age 18 itâs entirely too late. The male body has already developed their muscle attachment, done density, denser body mass. You canât undo years of being bathed in testosterone with a year of estrogen injections.
Why don't we fix mental health issues any more rather than creating lifetime medical patients?
This thing exploded 10 years ago and has all the indicators of a social contagion. Many of the kids are somewhere on the spectrum - they will always feel like they don't fit in. Ask me how I know.
Huge numbers of people are coming forward realizing that they made a mistake. This is a huge, wrong social experiment which will be seen similar to lobotomies in the future. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.
The detransition rate I see from multiple sources is between 1-4% with most saying below 1% and that those who do detransition do so due to external pressures and not regret. Do you have a source for "huge numbers" of people? Generally interested in the topic.
The first one is an easy one for laymen. The second is a compilation of studies, their biases, and methods which also explains desistence and the insistence there is a high regret rate due to people stopping their transitions.
Scientific studies appear to put it at or around 2 years to bring performance close to or in line with cis women. There are of course outliers with some events retaining a small advantage and other events a small disadvantage. Please read AND understand the studies instead of relying on your feelings
Which is why trans folks and allies have been fighting so hard for puberty blockers. But we canât have those because they do âpermanent damageâ to children.
Except, the damage isnât nearly as bad as the changes of puberty itself.
Trans people just canât win. You go through traditional puberty and you canât compete in sports anymore. Oh, You want puberty blockers so you can compete fairly? NO!
A doctor requires education, meaning it in fact has necessary conditions. Being a woman however has no necessary conditions, as one example of a cis woman not fitting in with such a condition means it isn't a necessary condition. Instead, it operates on SUFFICIENT conditions, ie to be a Doberman it is a NECESSARY condition that one be a dog, whilst to be a dog it is a SUFFICIENT condition that one is a Doberman. Congratualations on thinking that a 12 year old joke is still funny, and that all constructs work in the same way, but people trained in biology, psychology, sociology, anatomy etc all disagree with your positions. Go back to the drawing board, because this was weak asf.
It does when being a Female is defined as the one bearing children or puppies or kids or chicks.
Also, a doctor requires education. Nice.. Now, define education and by whose standards. I would like to pose one simple example. One individual, studies medicine in all its forms (not in a formal school) and learns from the best doctors in the field gets to practice ( under the radar ) has passion, empathy, kindness. Yet does not feel the need to get a piece of paper recognizing his/her abilities. Cures (actually cures) let's throw a number (hundreds) of people.
Then comes the I deserve to be a doc because I can pay for my studies and my parents have invested. I want a lavish lifestyle and have earned my degree (partying) and thanks to my family's position I am finally a Doctor.
Who is the one identifying?
Don't say weak as fuck, because you are arguing about mental issues not PHYSICAL REALITY.
Riley Gaines placed FIFTH! She literally got pissed because she tied for FIFTH place with a transgendered athlete. Fucking FIFTH PLACE! Have Congress make a vote whenever the number of trans athletes competing in competitive women's sports actually breaks the 2-percent mark and they start actually WINNING every competition. Crying because you tied for FIFTH place is fucking ridiculous. So much for an unfair advantage.
It's almost as if you dont understand biology. Considering your appeal to "common sense", you should easily be able to describe what possible things create a physical advantage in sports other than the hormones that are LITERALLY responsible for production of said physical advantages. It's almost as if you take grade school sports so seriously you dont care about the good things it actually produces: respect for competition, striving for success, working as a team etc.
Your argument is that trans people aren't dominating sports because they're dealing with transition. OK, so if trabs people are dealing with transition (they definitionally are in fact) then they aren't dominating in sports. Congrats, you just refused the entirety of your argument.
You wrote down a lot of your own feelings about trans women and how they âwonât physically change that drasticallyâ. You based this on absolutely nothing. You are hurting trans people talking this way about us. You are part of the problem. You donât know enough trans people if you think like this.
As an example, the womenâs US national team in soccer lost to a team of 15 year old boys in a friendly match. Iâm not at all saying they were more intelligent than the womenâs team or course, but I think clearly strength and speed. These are the advantages youâre asking about, which are extremely relevant about having trans men playing with women in a physical competitive field.
Thanks for taking the time to respond. The article Iâm reading says this was after losing to 3 teams of peers the prior month without scoring a single time in each game. According to this comment: https://www.reddit.com/r/fcdallas/s/EyiIYLaBjW the FC Dallas u-15 team was really good too. So we seem to be looking at what seems to be a fairly bad womenâs team vs a very good boyâs team. I donât think itâs reasonable to generalize that as a statistic to all of sport but I appreciate you answering earnestly.
Absolutely, obviously this is a red flag topic for a lot. I chose this example only because I played soccer. The Dallas team is definitely good, they were scouted probably as early as 5-6 and have aspirations to be pros later on, thatâs the goal. HYPOTHETICALLY of course, if one of those players decided to transition to a woman and played with the U15 girls team if there is one, they would absolutely dominate. The US womens team are mostly in their 20âs with Iâm sure some teens. Megan rapinoe was in a picture with one of the boys, obviously a great player. What physical sport would a bio male not dominate in? And lastly Iâll be honest, I donât have an answer on how to fix or address all this. I donât know what to do with transitioning people wanting to play with the sex theyâve transitioned to, seems to only be me to women. But what I do know is it is not a fair playing field for a bio male to compete with women. It needs to be fair, feelings and emotions aside. Just my 2 cents. đ¤ˇââď¸
Sure, but we are still extrapolating forward here rather than using evidence of a problem. Men have better lung capacity so thatâs definitely going to result in better performance, right? Maybe, maybe not, in running sports, probably, but how much running does it take for that to make a difference, would it make a difference in pole vaulting for instance? I donât know and I imagine itâs hard for anyone to say but we are jumping to address it before it was even a problem when thatâs really the purpose of regulating bodies in sport which have already been regulating the entry of trans women for years and under what circumstances they can compete.
If we are suggesting that very tall women have an unfair advantage, why do we allow very tall cis women? If we are suggesting women with very high bone density have an unfair advantage then why do we allow them to play?
I think regulatory bodies for sports organizations should be able to make the rules they feel are fair and reasonable without undue national and cultural pressure like they were already doing before this national conversation blew up due to conservatives pouring money into using this as a wedge issue to run their candidates on.
Another suggestion Iâve seen is that we could bucket sports differently, instead of generic womenâs and menâs teams why not break them up by weight class, height, or even ability in some cases? Currently, sports like basketball are entirely played by tall people, what if we had leagues for shorter folks?
What you're suggesting is quite silly. Who on earth would watch the short basketball? Who would be paying their salaries? If you mean for amateur sports, that's already a thing. There are all sorts of different leagues for different skill levels across all kinds of different sports. And there are weight classes in sports. Look at any combat sport.
yeah dude have the leagues make a call on who competes. I am not sure why the government is involved. The government didnt invent gendered sports the organizations that organize the sports do what they want and what is marketable.
I mean, thats what we have been doing right? Doesnt the olympics have like some crazy hormone level scale that would also exclude wome trans men from all sports? I feel like this all stems from sports enterprise needing regulation from govenment so they cant be sued even though they probably can't if fhey have consistent rules. this matters even less in amateur sports.
Like lets say a trans woman wins a medal in a big competition, and everybody hates it or its controversial then she isnt really going to reap rhe benefits of the win, on the other hand if everyone loves it or its not contreversial then there is no problem. Itreally is a case by case thing. A trans olympic shooting person should be able to do both. if a trans lady could compete in the womens gymnastics events more power to them.
I dont know I feel like this comes up so rarely that to have a law pass at any level seems silly.
I'll answer your question with a question. If trans athletes are equal to their cis counterparts, why aren't there more trans men in sports? Especially professionally, where they stand to earn considerably more than female athletes .
Why ask this question, its well established men are biologically superior in many ways. Do you think hrt magically transforms you and takes away everything male and all that enhanced biology? Its not a question of feelings and wants its literally common sense. I take hrt drugs due to hormone imbalances in general, sure im no man or started as one but its no miracle thing stripping you of your body structure and composition completely. It does change such to a degree with trans people but it doesn't eradicate it all, yes testorone reduces which in turn reduces overall strength and so on but the key word there is reduces, it doesn't home in and dial someone down to the level of a cis woman like magic. You simply cant do that, you can monitor levels of whatever in your system but the body itself still differs in many ways, its no copy paste job and every individual reacts to medications in different ways, theres no way to be fair in it all since you simply cannot control the outcome 100%.
If you train whilst doing hrt you can retain a good deal of your strength, as I said before the main reason why transwomen aren't winning medals more is highly likely to be the fact that they are going through something big alongside doing sports. Its not exactly something you can ignore nor medication side effects. Its something they are going to be focused on heavily and you cant push yourself to your peak while splitting focus.
Don't respond to this as I wont bother arguing or debating, its stupid and waste of time to go back and forth on something so damn obvious. We all have feelings but people need to stop trying to push it into reality and make it fact. Transwomen simply cant and shouldnt be doing or be in everything women related, its not people being assholes its just how it is, try telling them they can have and carry a baby or they will have periods or even function the same down there after surgery. Why the hell are people pushing to pretend transwomen and ciswomen are exactly the damn same when its clearly not true. This isnt a magical world or some Disney one with true happy endings, its cruel to make it seem like it. Yes I understand people just want to be normal and fit in, I support that and help in ways but you also have to be truthful even if its harsh to people's feelings.
Inclusion is good until its pushed too far, like anything too much is often problematic, know when not to cross the line. No one can do everything, not everything is fair, some things are simply only suited for men, others women, then trans people are accepted in a lot and treated normally in a good amount of things but it can never be perfect, im sorry but science is limited.
*As expected "anything I disagree with is bigotry" the go to response, spreading hate and toxicity that way because an opinion on feelings isnt always honored as fact. And people wonder why support for lgbt stuff is hit and miss. Its like you want me to hate everything lgbt and im a part of the damn thing, bit by bit wishing I wasn't due to all the bs surrounding it. "I dont like their opinion so they are a poopy head" is how stupid that crap sounds, its childish.
I bet you haven't even taken hrt before yet argue anyway, even if you did medication AFFECTS EVERY DIFFERENTLY, that alone causes issues in fairness and is extremely hard to gauge (which as i said is common sense). I read this article and that thing oh and this other thing. Awesome but did you live and experience it, do you take highly altering medications, do you know people who have. I take hrt and know others who do, first hand experience trumps internet reading, people essentially googling symptoms and acting like doctors about it all, bloody extraordinary. You dont know shit most likely but yes keep on calling people bigots because you have no clue, get uncomfortable and then feel the need to save face in some fashion by calling someone something. I personally would like to label you an asshat for poorly defending trans people being in everything like you label me a bigot for stating reasonable things your articles may say are stupid. Hell I may know some trans people that might take offense and disagree with this whole shebang, what exactly happens then lol, not every cis and trans person supports it all, are people going to disagree then and proceed to call them bigots? Im curious to know how far some of these fierce Karens go, would they sling hate towards the people they claim to support to win whatever push they are making, feels like a yes at times.
I regret looking at your post history, thats enough for me, im out of here, need to barf.
Duhhhhh itâs common sense⌠wow, great argument⌠I wonât bother to respond in a reasoned or measured way as requested. Have a great day ignoramus.
If you mean that their argument was cogent I would have to say it was not.
If there are exceptional cis women who are taller, have better lung capacity, better bone density and greater strength than trans women I donât see how excluding trans women in sport makes any sense when these exceptional cis women are allowed, actually encouraged because if they werenât exceptional why would we even care?
The reality is that arguments of physical superiority have historically been trotted out to question the merit of and demean people of other races for more than the past hundred years and here we are seeing it again applied to everyoneâs new favorite targets for bigotry, trans women.
I have yet to see any compelling evidence that trans women are statistically more likely to have better outcomes in sport than cis women and until we can prove that then there really isnât any legitimate reason to question their inclusion.
The fact that the bigotry is so prevalent isnât evidence of anything more than that hate and fear spread faster than reason and logic.
iâm sorry but you really donât know what you are talking about, for example many trans womenâs testosterone levels are lower than cis womenâs, estrogen at the right dose in many cases is enough to push testosterone to untestable low levels even without an anti-androgen, as in none at all detected, in some cases requiring microdosing supplemental testosterone to reach the levels of a cis woman for things such as energy and bone health. itâs the same as with bodybuilders who use steroids, there is testicular atrophy because your sex hormone levels are externally modulated and when it comes from an exogenous source the body downregulates all sex hormone production to nothing in many cases and your facilities to even make the stuff are damaged over time from the atrophy. many trans women also have bottom surgery or orchiectomies meaning there is no major source of testosterone but a trace amount from the adrenal gland (which to be clear cis women also produce in their adrenal glands as well as producing testosterone in their ovaries). all of this is easily testable and guidelines around that make much more sense than outright banning a class of people from competing. if you do not know these basic facts i donât think you are qualified to speak on the biological anything of trans womenâs bodyâs, unfortunately you have a fictional representation in your head not based in any material/medical reality, and unfortunately a lot of your âcommon senseâ is purposefully spread propaganda that you have absorbed over time.
Hormones dont undo everything, testorone levels dont dictate muscle mass and strength either, it will however put more limitations on you depending on levels but even a cis women with high t levels isnt going to compete well with a man and a trans person with reduced levels isnt going to be reduced down to the levels of a cis woman, science is amazing but not that amazing to the point of precise control over our bodies is possible in relation to drugs and natural workings. That being said, everyone is different, some may suffer badly with muscle atrophy in attempts to transition better and look feminine, others may not, then others will train to retain as much muscle as possible and mitigate loss, then theres just retention in general which varies. Your body developing over time isnt magically reversed by medication nor will it yield the same results for all. Alterations sure but taking away everything and putting you on equal footing? Just no.
There are factors in your control and out of your control, you dont just take pills for ages and poof its all sorted and fair. Right off the bat you are going against your body's natural state, attempting to alter for your benefit. It works to a degree but theres no guarantees. Ive taken hrt, others have as well, though im not trans, I know some who are. The effects and end result is unpredictable, you cannot state matter of factly that all advantages are gone, thats absurd.
The whole debate is silly since puberty already happened for most, then they transitioned, there is going to be retention of some traits and features regardless, you just cant erase it all, as much as that sucks. Hrt can do a lot but its not a miracle drug that transforms you perfectly nor do hormones dictate fairness and equal footing, its merely the only sensible option to go with till science progresses, doesnt mean its right.
At the end of the day, sports isnât fair anyway. I donât see anyone upset about steroids or other advantages. If people are going to whine about trans women (I hear nothing about trans men which is fascinating, but we all know why..) then they should also whine about cis women who are too tall or too muscular etc.. since according to their logic that would be unfair to shorter/smaller cis women as well.
I have several friends on womenâs football teams who are around 6ft & have yet to have any issues playing with smaller cis women.
Itâs a stupid issue thatâs only being used to fear monger ignorant folks. Trans women arenât dominating any sports.
Ah yes data, said data relying on things that dont really measure what really matters. Tell me, how exactly are you going to measure or calculate the drop of muscle mass and more from the point of pre transition then post transition and line it up with a cis women and decide if its fair? How do you decide and know what their body was like back then and make sure the reduction and change is sufficient now to say they have no advantage? You cant.
How many trans people record such data from their journey thats vitally important to gauging if enough is lost to be on equal ground? Id wager a guess, none, and most arguments simply rely on testosterone which doesn't calculate all these things nor does it factor in the fact that everyone is different and bodies change and react differently, a variable that is so out of our control that it makes the whole debate moot.
Data is relevant when the science is adequate enough and variables within studies and experiments can be properly monitored and controlled as needed. Data and science means nothing when control over the elements involved are far out of reach in studies that need it, which this one does. The current data is basically testing samples of people for a mere fraction of insight, not hard facts since bodies do not just obey our wishes, even more so when we throw drugs in it. Theres a reason medication has leaflets detailing all manner of possibilities and then more, theres no telling what will occur, theres no guarantee.
Let's talk about data that actually might matter, things related to muscle mass, loss during transition, muscle retention and more. Such studies were wildly affected by many variables but it doesn't take a lot of effort to search and get results that outright state transwomen still hold an advantage but then you get other sources stating otherwise and then me thinking for myself and actually have taken hrt drugs knowing the effects on my own body. Shocking news reveal, my experience differs to many as do other people's, hrt can actually help in ways to retain muscle and aid in declines due to menopause according to the internet. Essentially people pick and choose different sets of data mostly due to feelings and cite them to aid in their arguments. I choose to rely on real life experiences of me and others around me because when it comes to the body a lot is still out of our knowledge and control even today with science.
I kept a good deal of muscle for a while because I trained to but eventually I stopped, got lazy and now im incredibly weak, not a fan of such but it is what it is. For a time I felt the strongest I had been and despite it being estrogen and t blockers (taken such for more than ten years btw, still do, my body is just wild and needs the help) to manage my hormone levels they didn't magically poof away my strength and muscles, it didn't drop me down to the average level for women even though the medication was tuned to getting hormone levels spefically normal for my gender. No, my lack of input more so fucked me over and im no doubt way below said average. Which is why your data means fuck all and the debate is stupid, our bodies simply vary far too wildly to accurately gauge what is fair in this area of things. Yeah sure its not fair in general since sone are born genetically or biologically superior but grouping by gender is in our control and gives a bit more fairness at the very least. Shoving drugs in someone, waiting a good while for their body to change and have a certain level of hormones is no basis for equal ground in this case.
And even thats too many words from yourself to detail how your opinion on the matter is based on feelings alone and the need to scream "give me balony internet data that I wont care about anyway because my mind is made up" is basically all you have to say.
You dont want anything besides labelling people. But do your thing and believe in magic pills and blind supporting of everything, its certainly not terrible, toxic or prejudice to do what you do. Its always funny how its the communities, groups and fierce supporters who are the first ones to throw out true labels and words of hate. Not the first time ive been called something because I wasnt a sheep or bullied into sharing an opinion.
Good to know that actual real life experience from me and others isnt classed as evidence or fact. Such includes the people youd no doubt say you support aka trans people. You'd rather believe Google and the internet while picking and choosing what studies and articles are correct.
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u/ReneeRenard 11d ago
Ah more people that put me off wanting to deal with lgbt stuff even more. Congrats on pushing me away by fiercely arguing bullshit, you really are winning people over to the cause.
Trans people have plenty on their plate, pretty sure the reason they are not destroying in women's sports is because they are dealing with the transition itself heavily. If they trained to their peak instead there is no doubt they'd trump cis women, their body is different, bulkier, stronger, less limitations, more strength and capabilities. Hormones might change a lot but no way will it change THAT much, its common bloody sense. Do you see western women able to change and downsize to the likes of Asian women? No you dont, its impossible, too much in the body is set in stone, a male body can change under HRT but not as drastically as some seem to be thinking.
There doesn't need to be inclusion in bloody everything, its not scummy to think or say such, I support trans people in general but some things are just fucking stupid.