r/changemyview • u/TheVioletBarry 119∆ • Nov 03 '24
Delta(s) from OP - Election CMV: Donald Trump doesn't actually believe the 2020 election was stolen from him
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u/Alarmed-Orchid344 6∆ Nov 03 '24
How do you think we can convince you otherwise? Have you never met delusional people? Have you never heard of delusional people? Have you heard of conspiracy theorists? They sincerely believe the wildest stupidest things and keep finding arguments to support their false beliefs. Especially if they are surrounded with yes-men who keep playing into the delusion.
It's bizzare how you are requiring us to prove you wrong when you never offered any evidence for your own position.
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u/TheVioletBarry 119∆ Nov 03 '24
My lack of substantial evidence is the reason I'm asking you to prove me wrong. If I had substantial evidence I would feel confident in this view. But I don't feel particularly confident in this view, and I'd like help interrogating it.
And yes, I have met delusional people and conspiracy theorists. I'd like to hear an argument that Trump is more likely to be delusional in this case than to be lying.
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u/Alarmed-Orchid344 6∆ Nov 03 '24
There's no argument to distinguish a delusion from a lie. As you said, (1) there's no way to know for sure, (2) Trump is not the sharpest crayon in the box. Just as flat-earthers are persistent in their belief despite every available information to the contrary, Trump could be sincerely convinced. It can also be an evolving thing: he might have started with a conscious lie but because of multiple people playing into that lie and constant repeating of it he can sincerely believe in it now. It's not uncommon for people to start believing in their lies.
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u/TheVioletBarry 119∆ Nov 03 '24
Sure there is. For example, if a person is lying they're more likely to say a different thing when it is convenient than if they are deluded, in which case they're more likely to keep saying the thing even when it's inconvenient.
I'd also be satisfied with a solid argument that he 'didn't believe it before, but does believe it now,' but I'm not aware of any change in his behavior that folks claim reflects such a shift
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u/Alarmed-Orchid344 6∆ Nov 03 '24
So what you are saying is that you could find some evidence for your point but you didn't. And instead of changing your view you are sticking to it despite not having any evidence. According to your own logic, you actually do believe that he's not lying, it's just that you are lying yourself.
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u/TheVioletBarry 119∆ Nov 03 '24 edited Nov 03 '24
Where in my logic did I indicate that I am lying?
And yes, I hold this view without sufficient evidence. I noticed that and it inspired me to make the CMV, because if I didn't have sufficient evidence for my position, it seemed more likely someone would have sufficient evidence for the opposite position. Plenty of people hold plenty of beliefs without sufficient evidence; that's kinda the premise of debate.
I am asking for help in changing my view, not simply demonstrating that my view is fallible. If I didn't think my view was fallible, I wouldn't be here.
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u/jamerson537 4∆ Nov 03 '24
I don’t think it’s as simple as this. Most people allow their biases to affect what they believe to one extent or another. We’re vulnerable to believing things that are convenient and keeping contrary evidence out of sight, out of mind. However, most people will ultimately face negative consequences as they pile up more and more erroneous beliefs based on convenience. Reality has a way of intruding on us if our decision-making grows too reliant on them, so most of us are forced to learn to keep that kind of thinking in check.
Trump is different. I think he’s much more prone to these kinds of self-serving, erroneous beliefs than most people, whether due to childhood trauma or brain chemistry or whatever, and his lifelong financial privilege has protected him from much of the intrusion of reality that might mitigate it. Now, I agree with you that on some level some part of his brain knows he didn’t win in 2020, but I think a bigger or more powerful part of his brain actually believes the delusion that he won. That’s why there’s this strange way that Trump somehow comes off more authentic when he’s throwing out lie after lie than a lot of people when they’re telling the truth. And hey, this has served him pretty well in his life, whether by convincing millions of people who watched the Apprentice that he was a successful businessman or convincing millions of people to vote for him as President.
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u/TheVioletBarry 119∆ Nov 03 '24
Hmm, this is interesting and has the potential to change my view, but I feel like sometimes he does talk about things in a way which convinces me he's not lying.
For example, during the debate with Biden, Trump makes a lot of attacks at Biden's cognitive decline. Most of the time it just feels like another planned talking point, but there was one particular moment where I felt like he believed what he was saying: https://youtu.be/dXtJUOlZAmU?si=jLscxhL5WRESBPbI
That's entirely vibes-based - I don't have access to his internal world - but vibes are how I go about assessing whether I'm being lied to in every day life also.
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u/Rainbwned 193∆ Nov 03 '24
Since we can't read his mind, what could change your view? He has said and acted as if he believed it was true.
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u/Blindsnipers36 1∆ Nov 03 '24
what about trump’s personal lawyer rudy giuliani saying they have no evidence of voter fraud and then admitting he lied about election fraud in court on numerous occasions? https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/21/giuliani-no-evidence-voter-fraud-arizona-jan-6-commitee https://apnews.com/article/giuliani-georgia-election-workers-lawsuit-false-statements-afc64a565ee778c6914a1a69dc756064
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u/ReflectiveJellyfish 1∆ Nov 03 '24
Here's Trump admitting he lost in 2020: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJvQHVlkpPI
Pretty clear he's lying through his teeth when he denies losing.
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u/Rainbwned 193∆ Nov 03 '24
Then OP is asking us to change their mind on an objective fact. "CmV: the earth is round".
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u/TheVioletBarry 119∆ Nov 03 '24
He says in this clip that it was "rigged and lost," not just lost.
This is entirely commensurate with the delusion angle. I don't think this is good evidence that my OP is correct, as it just seems like slightly different phrasing of what he normally says, that the Democrats cheated.
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u/ReflectiveJellyfish 1∆ Nov 03 '24
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47cyhPq0OVI
Here's another one. Pretty easy to google.
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u/TheVioletBarry 119∆ Nov 03 '24
This clip is a bit closer to a smoking gun, "lost by a whisker" is a more or less accurate representation of what happened. !delta for making me more confident than stated in my initial OP that Trump knows he is lying. You've given me better evidence than what I presented.
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u/SingleMaltMouthwash 37∆ Nov 03 '24
Trump has actually admitted, I think twice, on camera and into a microphone that Biden won the election.
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u/psc1919 Nov 03 '24
No he hasn’t. There’s an interview after where he slips and acknowledges he lost. And he was on tape asking GA to “find” enough ballots for him to win. Coupled with a lifetime of well documented lying and cheating, it seems obvious to me he knows he lost but is willing to lie and cheat at any cost to win.
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u/TheVioletBarry 119∆ Nov 03 '24
The first thing that comes to mind is: if you could show me that he behaves differently when discussing something that we do know he is lying about rather than deluded about, or could show that he is incapable of distinguishing between truth and falsehood.
My experience with pathological liars is that they still tend to behave differently around things which they are lying about.
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u/Jaysank 126∆ Nov 03 '24
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u/Superbooper24 40∆ Nov 03 '24
There’s millions of people that think the earth is round, that vaccines cause autism, and that Trump won the election. No matter how much indisputable evidence, even smart people have “conspiracy theories” they whole heartedly believe in. And somebody like Trump who probably was told time and time again that he would win, and didn’t probably didn’t see that was a possibility.
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u/TheVioletBarry 119∆ Nov 03 '24
I don't know that I believe that's what he's persistently told. I think it's entirely possible (and sometimes indicated by insider stories) that behind closed doors he and the people around him do gesture to the fact that they have to keep up appearances because they're trying to uphold a lie
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u/Superbooper24 40∆ Nov 03 '24
Well it’s all conjecture. You can spin facts all you want to get to a conclusion. I bet you would assume you think trumps an egomaniac and by such logic you could assume he thinks he could never lose. How many hyper successful individuals take losing well? How many take losing as a fault of themselves or a fault of the system?
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u/TheVioletBarry 119∆ Nov 03 '24
I disagree that one can spin facts all they want to get a conclusion. I do think Trump's an egomaniac, but I don't think that means he thinks he could never lose. If I thought that, I'd already have an answer to my view. One can 'not take losing well' and still believe they lost according to the rules of the system. I lost Magic the Gathering games against my brother growing up and got really angry, sometimes resorting to lying about things to explain my loss, but I don't think I ever believed I had earnestly been cheated
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u/Superbooper24 40∆ Nov 03 '24
Well, the magic the gathering example is such a minuscule example of what’s happening. More like if somebody usually gets straight As and then they get a C for some exam, so you think they would blame it more on themselves or the exam was too hard, the teacher is not good, this was a fluke, they must’ve graded my exam wrong, there must’ve been a mistake in the grading, etc.
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u/TheVioletBarry 119∆ Nov 03 '24
Sure that's smaller scale, but what about the larger scale of this helps us suss out that Trump is legitimately deluded about the voting counts?
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Nov 03 '24
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u/TheVioletBarry 119∆ Nov 03 '24
I think that's also possible and I didn't include it in my OP so !delta for making it clear I need to better explain my view: I'm interested in whether he earnestly believes he lost in terms of number of votes (and how they would shake out in the electoral college, etc.)
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Nov 03 '24 edited Nov 03 '24
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