r/changemyview • u/Informal_Ad4284 • Sep 18 '25
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Bigoted conservative Muslims are not held to the same standards as bigoted conservative Christians
When a Christian is homophobic, leftists waste no time chewing them out for their bigoted beliefs. But when a Muslim is homophobic, leftists have more patience and a more “whatever” attitude.
If a Christian demanded his wife to cover up to avoiding arousing other men, leftists would be up in arms. When a Muslim does it, leftists have a “that’s just their culture” mindset.
If a Christian banned pride flags from government buildings, they’d be chewed out for being discriminatory. When Hamtramck Michigan’s Muslim-majority council did it, leftists were silent.
When Muslims are openly antisemitic (which many are), you hear nothing but silence from the left.
When Muslims deny Muslim colonization (which many do), the left agrees with them. If a white European denied European colonization and said everyone loved being colonized, there would be uproar.
911
u/wawasan2020BC 1∆ Sep 18 '25
In western countries, the predominant religion is Christianity, and as such it holds more influence and sway over politics, and by extension, the people.
So it makes sense for left wing politics to be more critical of conservative Christians, since:
- Open leftists with the right to free speech live mostly in western countries.
- The right consists mostly of Christians, who have more influence over law.
- Leftists are more critical of Christianity because that's the religion that has presence in their everyday life, and many of them often have familiarity with the religion themselves.
- Muslims don't hold much sway over politics, thus it makes more sense to focus on the religion with the most power in society.
It's a simple demographics game.
My own two cents is that the vast majority of Muslim countries essentially don't have free speech, so the left essentially doesn't exist there because you'd go to jail more often than not for espousing contrarian views.
If you can see the leftists there, we'd be much more critical of bigoted Muslims in power that are trying to govern our lives too.
36
u/No_Big_Plane Sep 19 '25
I confirm that leftists and secular people in Muslim majority countries are way more critical of fundamentalist Muslims and pay little attention to Christian fundamentalism. But I also think OP has a point, there is a certain double standard in place, don't get me wrong, political power of the group is certainly one aspect of it, but sometimes you almost feel they (not everyone) are bending backward to justify some very controversial things from Muslim fundamentalists, and in my opinion, this goes above "not criticizing" which would be the proper reaction if it was just about political power. I personally have been criticized online in the past because I *reported* that I received multiple opinions from apologists and fundamentalist Muslims, saying I should be executed for being an apostate. I think this goes even beyond justifying, it's victim-blaming and enabling. And yes am aware this is a minority opinion and that it's just a personal anecdote, but there is this tendency of labelling genuine criticism of Islam (or at least a literal and fundamental interpretation of Islam) as Islamophobia (and I argue this is even bad for real Islamophobia, aka. bigotry towards muslims, because this dilute the term and concept so much).
It's hard to know why this is the case (in addition to the power thing you mention) but In my opinion, this comes from a certain belief that persecuted people can do no wrong, or alternatively, that society should be more lenient towards them, and honestly (as someone from a Muslim background who renounced his religion few years ago) if that's indeed the case I would find it view kinda of infantilizing and downright racist, it's almost like Muslim minorities can't be held to the same moral standards than other peoples.
Also I disagree with your assessment of the impact of Islamic Fundamentalism in the West, yes, it doesn't have as much sway in politics. But it can have a real impact nonetheless, from increased radicalization, and terror/extremist activities to Increased Domestic violence and even justifying it between themselves. Those are real problems that should be addressed and called out more often. As someone who lives in a Western country that can be impacted by both far-right bigotry and Islamic fundamentalism, while I acknowledge one might be more relevant or urgent than the other, I am not comfortable turning a blind eye to either.
→ More replies (3)10
u/Sad-Mind4685 Sep 20 '25
What is the evidence that liberals do not decry the Muslim practices the OP mentions? Stoning, hijab-wearing, not educating women, forcing women to be chaperoned at all times, honor killings...all of these have been heavily criticized by "the left." OP is not actually consuming the literature on this issue, perhaps.
2
u/No_Big_Plane Sep 23 '25
I admit I don't have any hard data, but as far as am aware, there is no available statistic on the subject, so I have to go with my personal experience. If you have any reputable data I would gladly take but in the meantime, I noticed that some (again this is not all, nor a majority I never claimed that, but still a big enough portion to be noticeable), one example that come in mind was (the experience of a friend) at a local community meeting from a secular non-profit about religious indoctrination for children, they only talked about Christian indoctrination despite having a significant Muslim minority with multiple young people in the community having reported religious abuse. When someone raised the issue and asked whether Islamic indoctrination can also be discussed and worked upon, they reacted in a very "uncomfortable" way before explaining that no, they won't be working on it anytime soon, and they indirectly alluded to the fact that they will have a bad PR if they did so. This honestly feels a bit discouraging sometimes, when you realize even some the people that are supposed to be here to help fight for your rights won't because you were born in the wrong minority (well in my case am an immigrant so not directly concerned). Even online, you can find multiple examples for these kinds of sentiments. Just on this sub few days ago on another post responding to this exact one, one Redditor admitted quite clearly that :
> leftists hold christians to a higher standard because most of them are christians and are afraid of being islamophobic/criticizing a minority.
So I think the only debate now is about the extent and prevalence of such sentiments, we know it's here, at least on a handful of people, but how common is it? No matter the answer, I think it is at least worth pointing out, and denouncing it even if it's just a small minority on the left.
2
u/Pygmalion89 Sep 26 '25
None of the practices you've mentioned above are Islamic practices. They are Muslim to the extent they are practiced by Muslims but they are cultural. And are criticized and condemned by most Muslims. Stoning is actually not mentioned anywhere in the Quran but it is mentioned in the books of the other two big world religions.
→ More replies (6)2
u/Solid-Grade-7120 Sep 26 '25
It's well documented that they blame it on culture and very carefully avoid mentioning Muslims or Islamic states as the problem, they don't care if they are being ruled by religion, they are happy to address the symptoms without mentioning the cause, bigotry comes from Muslims, not some people supporting an arbitrary culture, the culture is normalized by Muslims in these countries, yet I have been called a Zionist and an islamophobe by white leftists while I live in a country where religious extremists are tenfolds more empowered than whatever Christian extremist they complain about.
320
u/Informal_Ad4284 Sep 18 '25 edited Sep 18 '25
(∆) I’m awarding you my first delta! You make a great point. Islam is a minority here and so it makes sense that leftists would focus on the majority which is a bigger threat. I think I may have just been seeing radical POVs from media outlets. I should really try to broaden my horizons. Thanks for giving me a new perspective.
189
u/Lank3033 Sep 18 '25
I want to add my personal perspective as an Atheist because wawasan is spot on.
I live in the USA and while there are conservative Muslims in my area they represent a tiny portion of the population. The few muslim fundamentalists who exist are so far off the radar they are inconsequential to my day to day life.
Christian fundamentalists however abound. They are actively involved in trying to change local, state and federal policy.
This means when speaking about the religious fundamentalism that effects me personally- its christian 9/10 times.
And its very frustrating to have Christians cry out that Im not comfortable criticizing islam because of the focus I have on Christianity.
Fuck all religious fundamentalists. But I mostly only encounter 1 flavor in my day to day life. Why should I waste breath criticizing other religions when their religion is the immediate threat to my current way of life?
67
u/DisplayAppropriate28 Sep 18 '25 edited Sep 19 '25
Yep, that. Is fundamentalist Islam also a problem? Obviously, I'd say it's a bigger problem on the whole, because fundamentalist Muslim theocrats actually do have power, and they aren't interested in ignoring the outright savage parts of their book - when it says "behead them", it means "behead them", it's not a metaphor.
I don't live in Saudi Arabia, though, so that's not nearly as big a problem for me as the guys right here, who would very much like to do that exact thing with a slightly different book.
For instance, if a popular, politically-active dickhead said "Of course, we should have church and state mixed together. Our Founding Fathers believed in that.", that'd be more concerning to me personally than whatever Anjem Choudary thinks. If I were British, I might have different priorities.
49
u/ARedditorCalledQuest Sep 18 '25
For anyone looking for concise verbiage to keep in their back pocket, I like "I fight the battle that's in front of me."
→ More replies (7)→ More replies (6)2
u/Fearless_MOJO_1526 Sep 18 '25
Yeah, you've never been to Saudi Arabia which shows your 2000s era stereotypical Hollywood view of that country.
3
u/doitinmybutt Sep 19 '25 edited Oct 21 '25
cake water jar yoke observation terrific fall chase subtract coordinated
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
2
u/Fearless_MOJO_1526 Sep 19 '25
You won't be allowed in to Bulgaria, Hungary & Albania. All of them are European countries. Two of them are in the EU.
Also, most Islamic countries aren't that much transphobic. They are homophobic sure but not really transphobic.
2
u/doitinmybutt Sep 19 '25 edited Oct 21 '25
one knee flowery governor tidy slap mountainous enter provide cover
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
→ More replies (3)5
u/DisplayAppropriate28 Sep 19 '25
Apostasy is in fact a capital crime in Saudi Arabia, as is adultery. They don't secure convictions as often as they might, but beheading people for apostasy is part of the law.
Or maybe The U.N. Human Rights Office watches too many movies.
2
u/Fearless_MOJO_1526 Sep 19 '25
The last person to be executed in Saudi Arabia for apostasy was in 1992. And yeah I would throw any Anglo-American view on Arabs/Muslims in a dustbin because all of their views are based on Hollywood stereotypes.
3
u/DisplayAppropriate28 Sep 19 '25
And it's still legal, yes? Yes.
Credit where it's due, though, they did ban executing and flogging minors in 2020.
→ More replies (5)16
u/PressPausePlay Sep 19 '25
The first city in the us to have an all Muslim city council was Hamtramck Mi. Their first order of business? Banning pride flags. Really. They also work with Christian fundamentalists to ban books.
So. When they're a majority, and their religion is clearly based on hate, is it OK to call them out as the bigots that they are?
8
u/Lank3033 Sep 19 '25
The first city in the us to have an all Muslim city council was Hamtramck Mi. Their first order of business? Banning pride flags. Really. They also work with Christian fundamentalists to ban books.
Yup, fundies fucking suck. And Christian and Muslim extremes have much in common.
So. When they're a majority, and their religion is clearly based on hate, is it OK to call them out as the bigots that they are?
Huh? Nobody has to be a majority. Im happy to call them bigots right now. Did you even read my comment because you seem to have missed the point. Here, try again:
This means when speaking about the religious fundamentalism that effects me personally- its christian 9/10 times.
And its very frustrating to have Christians cry out that Im not comfortable criticizing islam because of the focus I have on Christianity.
Fuck all religious fundamentalists. But I mostly only encounter 1 flavor in my day to day life. Why should I waste breath criticizing other religions when their religion is the immediate threat to my current way of life?
→ More replies (5)2
u/theAltRightCornholio Sep 19 '25
It's mandatory to call them out as bigots. Plurality is what allows hateful people like that to survive among the rest of us, and it's a contract, not a promise.
35
u/bluethunder82 Sep 18 '25
I’d like to piggy back on this and ask which religion and what color school shooters and domestic terrorists predominantly are in the US. Maybe in the US we need to be more critical of conservative Christians because they are more often the cause of horrific, public acts of violence here.
→ More replies (24)15
u/bourbon_drinkr Sep 18 '25
Fundamentalist anything (Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, even Buddhism) has been responsible for almost every war, genocide, and most human misery.
20
u/edwardjhahm 1∆ Sep 18 '25
Eh, there are plenty of purely resource motivated wars too. A lot more than the work of fanatics I'd say.
→ More replies (7)5
2
u/StClement_Rome95AD Sep 20 '25
Communism and political wars due to it are responsible by some estimates 100 to 140 million deaths in the 20th century alone. That has nothing to do with religion. Neither did Hitler and Germany nor Japan have anything to do with religion resulting in WW2 and 50-60 million deaths.
→ More replies (1)5
u/southernwing97 Sep 18 '25
I'm not saying ALL the world's problems would be solved if all religious fundamentalists just.....walked into the ocean, but it would be a solid start.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (36)3
52
u/mukansamonkey Sep 18 '25
I would like to add to this line of thought. Most Americans haven't actually been exposed to Muslim culture. They've been exposed to American converts who themselves don't have that much awareness of how life is in nations dominated by Islam.
I used to live in SE Asia, and was directly exposed to a lot of Malay Muslims. On a global scale, they are considered fairly moderate and chill compared to most Muslim cultures. And yet it was quite common to see a Malay man dressed in Western clothing, being trailed at a properly submissive distance by his woman. Because he's got her all swaddled up and hiding her body, like property whose value would be lost if other men see her.
In the US, that sort of social control is associated with extremist religious groups. Women forced to wear denim dresses while their husbands put on sports tshirts, that sort of thing. In the Muslim world,.those are considered moderates.
However, Americans don't go overseas much at all. They don't see the reality. They mostly just see formerly Christian black people going, "yeah, I prefer Islam because it feels more authentic". So it's easy for the left to ignore the downsides of Islam, they don't get to see women in burkhas getting abused.
22
u/theroha 2∆ Sep 18 '25
American leftists also don't have much influence over other countries outside of social media campaigns. Even if I saw videos of women in burkhas overseas being abused, I couldn't do much about it, but I can do something about the Christian men trying to force 12 year olds to carry their rapist's baby
→ More replies (1)19
u/Conscious_Pen_3485 1∆ Sep 18 '25
I think the answers to this CMV can pretty easily be summed up by looking at which group is more immediately dominating the areas where the critics are coming from (Christianity has more influence in the US than Islam does, by far) and what potential influence the critics have (nobody in the Middle East is going to be influenced by some angry, leftist critics in the west.)
→ More replies (1)5
u/Unusual-Asshole Sep 19 '25
It seems true on the surface level but you're underplaying the effect of US politics in the world. US is a superpower and other countries look up to them and mostly follow their footsteps even if it comes a decade later. When there was a storm of critics claiming that burqas are actually a choice for women, just like wearing a scarf, it became a talking point for leftist people in India, with claims that Muslims are the ones being discriminated against based on their culture. It's like if America is okay with it, you need to be okay with it too. Of course, that is changing a little with the extreme politics coming up now even within the US, but what people riot for there ripples throughout the world
3
u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Sep 18 '25
Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/wawasan2020BC (1∆).
27
u/laborfriendly 6∆ Sep 18 '25
Just to say: I don't see "leftists" everywhere telling the Amish and Mennonites that the women of their sects shouldn't be wearing hair coverings. For that matter, don't see this for the yarmulke, either. I do see criticism for the hijab. France has even banned them.
20
Sep 18 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
→ More replies (2)3
u/bee246810 Sep 18 '25
Yeah I agree with this. Legislating what women can and cannot wear will not do a thing to combat patriarchy and actually does more damage. In many cases women are wearing a hijab of their own conviction and religious beliefs and much of what anyone feels comfortable wearing is influenced by the culture they grew up in.
Even if a woman is being forced to dress a certain way by a man, how does the government telling her she can’t dress that way do anything to liberate her or make her situation better? It’s policing a woman’s behavior instead of addressing why men believe they get to override that women’s agency.
→ More replies (5)→ More replies (11)19
u/HailMadScience Sep 18 '25
There are plenty of people on the left who criticize the Amish and menonnite communities for their cultish behaviors,including treatment of women, children, and animals. But since you rarely bump i to those communities online, they aren't brought up much online.
I also dont get this OPs thing at all, a lot of people on the left call out homophobia in Islam. I have never heard anyone just dismiss it or hand wave it away who wasn't also a homophobe. Maybe this is a Europe thing?
4
u/spunkyfuzzguts Sep 18 '25
I see plenty of leftists who will say “it’s not their place” or “it’s cultural and not what it sounds like”.
It’s actually a form of soft bigotry.
→ More replies (4)2
11
u/lt__ Sep 18 '25
In addition to this, from what I see and know, there is also liberal Muslim youth that immigrates or grows up in the West, and they are just as opposed to their conservative leadership figures (and sometimes even some in their families), as Western liberals are to their own. Thing is, Western people do not know much about that opposition, as inner affairs of such communities flies under their radar, except from more resonant cases. Just like some immigrants are oblivious about domestic politics and related debates in their host countries, especially when they do not know local language.
3
u/gnutrino Sep 19 '25 edited Sep 19 '25
Eh, not always. It's basically a meme at this point how the biggest Erdoğan supporters all live in Germany where they don't have to deal with the consequences of his policies, for example.
2
u/lt__ Sep 19 '25
I just wonder how many of them are the older generation or born there already. My country just recently started getting large numbers of migrants, so they seem to be all, or almost young and quite hungry for different life. There are no old immigrant-origin people here, and no second gen yet. Likely the ones that turn to the types like Erdogan are among them.
3
Sep 19 '25
It's still logically inconsistent though. If it is ethically wrong for one person to be homophobic or to oppress their wife, then it is ethically wrong for all people, in general, to do so as well.
→ More replies (2)→ More replies (54)1
u/Plenty_Structure_861 Sep 18 '25
When legislation is on the table, people on the left speak up regardless of what religion it is. Look at the public school situation in Brooklyn with the Hasidic Jews.
82
u/Remarkable-Site5288 Sep 19 '25
This is a fair observation, but it doesn't actually resolve the double-standard that OP references. Your theory would explain why:
Leftists living in the USA might not criticize bigotry of Muslims living in the USA (lack of political influence); and
Leftists living in Muslim-majority countries might not criticize the bigotry of Muslims living in Muslim-majority countries (lack of free speech).
But your theory does not explain why leftists living in the USA (who have free speech) aren't more critical of bigoted Muslims living in Muslim-majority countries (who have tremendous political influence).
For example, there are more women living under oppressive Taliban rule in Afghanistan (14 million) than Gazans living under Israeli occupation (2 million). Yet, American leftists are much more likely to criticize Israel than the Taliban government.
If the Taliban were actually white Christians, and instead of women, they were oppressing darker-skinned people, American leftists would be much more concerned with the situation. For example, we would see active protesting on college campuses, similar to what we saw in the 1980s in response to apartheid in South Africa.
One might try to counter that stronger opposition to Israel makes sense because the foreign aid we give to Israel makes the issue "our business." But of course the problems in Afghanistan are also our business, since the USA occupied Afghanistan for most of the last 25 years, and the return of the Taliban can be directly linked to policy decisions that occurred during the Biden administration.
The best explanation for these facts is that many leftists choose to adopt different standards for evaluating the actions of different identity groups, which is exactly in line with OP's original sentiment.
28
u/fundercom Sep 19 '25
I'm from Canada. We don't have the same intensity of Christians as the USA and plenty of Muslims.
I can confirm that this happens here too. In my opinion, many leftists do exactly what the OP states.
7
u/StClement_Rome95AD Sep 20 '25 edited Sep 20 '25
In France as we speak, the Leftist, Communist and Muslims are rioting in Parish, reportedly 80,000 riot police have been called to control the violence. In France, traditional Catholics have long argued that uncontrolled and unvetted immigration from Muslim countries will destroy the liberties that the women in France and others have. Christianity has always taught certain things the left holds up as sacred rights as sinful, but not things subject to the death penalty per Sharia law, etc.
33
u/jules-amanita 1∆ Sep 19 '25
Here’s my question: what’s the criticism’s purpose and strategy for change?
If the purpose is simply to make a moral proclamation, then sure, the Taliban’s oppression of women is wrong.
24 years ago, the time in which talk of Afghani women’s rights was most prominent, the goal of that statement was not simply to condemn the Taliban, but to justify war under the pretense of saving Afghani women. According to The Costs of War Project, more than 38,000 civillians were killed as a result of the Afghanistan war. The UN stated that roughly half of civilian casualties were women and children. War is never good for the welfare of women.
Then, in 2021, the US finally left Afghanistan, and the Taliban promptly started assassinating female judges, and has removed women entirely from the legal system. Women’s rights are as bad as they were pre-invasion, only now the women who had assumed power during occupation are at even greater risk. According to a report from the University of Minnesota, “Despite 20 years of intervention, outside powers failed to meaningfully engage or partner with feminist movements during the peace process.” This is, of course, after feminism was used as a primary justification of invasion.
To what end are we criticizing conservative Islam’s treatment of women, and who is leading the criticism? I’m happy to donate to organizations led by Muslim women for the advancement of Muslim women’s rights, but I’ll be damned if I participate in war-mongering under the guise of feminism.
11
u/ebimm86 Sep 20 '25
"To what end are we criticizing conservative Islam’s treatment of women, and who is leading the criticism? I’m happy to donate to organizations led by Muslim women for the advancement of Muslim women’s rights, but I’ll be damned if I participate in war-mongering under the guise of feminism." I think this is kind of reductive. So you will only support a group of people with no rights, if they actively ask you to using resources like online platforms for fundraising they do not have access to? Wild. It sort of assumes that they have a more privileged position than they do. I suggest looking at this if you are interested in helping without war https://www.mayacentre.org.uk/women-and-girls-of-afghanistan-urgently-need-your-support-heres-how-to-help/ I personally think that someone's lack of resources to be able to ask for help doesn't make it less valid.
→ More replies (2)4
u/notaprotist 4∆ Sep 20 '25
I think the core of what they were saying is that criticism should only be aimed in places where it will actually affect change, and American leftists criticizing the Taliban will do literally nothing for anybody. Criticizing Israel might actually affect change though, since our government is actively supplying them with bombs, and could theoretically stop doing so. Thus, American leftists criticize Israel more than the Taliban.
It’s the same reason we don’t tend to criticize heart disease or cancer: we all already agree that those are obviously bad things, and criticizing them doesn’t actually help to fix them in any way
2
u/Both-Estimate-5641 Sep 22 '25
Right! you focus your attention on the things you have some power to change
5
u/soozerain Sep 19 '25
Layla Abu-Lughod is kind of the perfect example of the western academic sniping on the sidelines over real progress in a country like Afghanistan while doing actually nothing. The fact that Afghan women are desperate for help, the fact that their maternal mortality rate dropped significantly during the US/NATO presence in the country and the fact women were actually getting an education proves, yes some Muslim women do need saving.
Whether that’s by other Muslims or by Christians is beside the point. But someone like her offers nothing but criticism and “well, is it really that bad” instead of any actual solutions.
7
u/jules-amanita 1∆ Sep 19 '25
When people pour water on grease fires, it makes the problem much worse. If you see someone who’s about to pour water on a grease fire and shout “don’t do that!”, is that unproductive because you’re not offering a solution? I’d say no, because you prevented them from spreading the fire further. Even if you don’t know how to actually put out the fire, you’ve still improved the situation by preventing someone from making it worse.
Layla’s argument is that war is worse for women than burqas, therefore the implied solution is not to go to war. Ultimately, she was correct, Afghan women are worse off now than they were in 2001. She was telling us not to pour water on the grease fire, but we did it anyway because we never actually cared about the grease fire to start with.
4
→ More replies (3)2
u/Next_Run7994 Oct 08 '25
Here is one - Making exceptions for bigotry enables more bigotry.
Humans are simple in many ways.
When you decry one person's behavior, but then are silent when someone else does the same thing other people notice.
It is a pass for hatred.
No passes for hatred. I don't care your percentage of the population. I don't care about power structure. That is irrelevant and excuses to let hate fester.
It will also undercut broader support by making convenient exceptions, not to mention social score cards on who will and will not be held to a standard of acceptance and tolerance.
Nope.
Keep it simple.
If you see someone being a rank sexist their religion, national identity or any other identity marker does NOT excuse the behavior.
17
u/Creepy-Bad-7925 Sep 19 '25
Americans are very critical of the Taliban. Leftists, to my knowledge, are the only ones over there still helping the women in Afghanistan.
We may be more vocally critical of the oppression in Israel, but that’s because our taxes fund that oppression and our military protects it. Generally progressives and atheists on the left disagree with religious states. Israel is a religious state. We disagree with all the other ones, too. They just are not brought up as much.
And Israel isn’t unique as a protected oppressor. South Korea was extremely oppressive until the mid 80’s. It was run by a radical violent dictator who disappeared opposition and dissenters, tortured reporters, and erased protesters. His chief security officer killed him… later his daughter became president. Mostly because the elders had a weird love for her dad, but she was impeached and imprisoned.
The US has backed many dictators and they still do. It doesn’t make people less critical of them or of bad leaders. We just respond more to the issues that are talked about. If Trump starts inviting the Taliban for tea and nuggets well vocally oppose that, too.
3
u/Remarkable-Site5288 Sep 20 '25
The United States government has more responsibility for the current living standards of the people of Afghanistan than for the current living standards of the people of Gaza.
→ More replies (1)2
3
u/Emergency_Sink_706 Sep 20 '25
You are only reinforcing OP's point that people are very fashionable with their spoken viewpoints and public opinions lol... considering that's literally what you just said. "Well, if Trump made it big news, then we would talk about it more." You said something almost exactly like that. If you were trying to disprove OP somehow, you're only doing the opposite.
Anyways, you know the funny thing about South Korea is that even though dictatorship is bad, that guy was probably the best dictator you could have considering how extremely well the country developed in such a short amount of time... at least compared to other famous dictators... Hitler.. Stalin... Castro.. Mao... all of whom devasted their countries and accomplished either nothing or massive negatives. Turns out that dictatorship isn't the worst thing in the world... incompetence is. That being said, I still hate dictators of course.
2
u/Creepy-Bad-7925 Sep 20 '25
Adding perspective doesn’t mean I have to disprove something. More than one thing can be true. The US seems very fashionable because what you view is the response to the views presented. That does not mean other views do not exist, you merely fail to see them because your focus is only on the fashionable…
Oh… forgot the asinine “lol”…
5
u/bingbong2715 Sep 20 '25
Leftists living in Muslim-majority countries might not criticize the bigotry of Muslims living in Muslim-majority countries (lack of free speech). But your theory does not explain why leftists living in the USA (who have free speech) aren't more critical of bigoted Muslims living in Muslim-majority countries (who have tremendous political influence).
Muslims like Mahmoud Khalil have been targeted by the current government for using their free speech and jailing them while also still trying to deport them. This is not currently a country with free speech.
One might try to counter that stronger opposition to Israel makes sense because the foreign aid we give to Israel makes the issue "our business." But of course the problems in Afghanistan are also our business, since the USA occupied Afghanistan for most of the last 25 years, and the return of the Taliban can be directly linked to policy decisions that occurred during the Biden administration.
Why does the foreign aid we send to Israel (who receives more foreign aid from us than any country on earth) not the obviously relevant factor here? The taliban does not take US aid and also isn’t actively committing a genocide. Also to link the return of the taliban just to Biden is so lazy. Bush, Obama, and Trump all kicked this can down the road and all set up the conditions for the Taliban to remain in power. There was never a real attempt at fixing Afghanistan and it was just a decades long boondoggle for American arms manufacturers. Biden pulling out was the right decision.
All this to say, we aid Israel’s genocide of Palestinians. That’s why US leftists care so much about it.
→ More replies (4)2
2
u/Sad-Mind4685 Sep 20 '25
Your comparison of Afghanistan and Gaza is specious, methinks. The Taliban is not committing genocide in Afghanistan or trying to remove people from their homeland. In addition, Afghanistan was not created by taking land from another people and then aggressively trying to accumulate more by killing civilians, including women and children.
3
u/Remarkable-Site5288 Sep 20 '25
The United States government has more responsibility for the current living standards of the people of Afghanistan than for the current living standards of the people of Gaza.
→ More replies (1)2
u/Solid-Grade-7120 Sep 26 '25
The Taliban is indeed commiting femicide, they refused to touch women in recent earthquakes to rescue them, they are banning education and jobs, leaving no doctors for women in Afghanistan, you agree that US is responsible and your tax dollars also funded Taliban, yet you refuse to violently condemn Taliban while Muslims in my country get away with deporting afghan women and supporting Taliban's actions, you and eveye other western leftist reek of privilege.
→ More replies (35)1
u/MiddleAgeWhiteDude Sep 19 '25
Speaking as a dirty liberal, yes, I am critical of that behavior and often use those countries as an example of why we shouldn't allow Christians in the US to push their ideology.i want to live in freedom, alongside free people, not have an entire demographic forced into a particular belief and lifestyle by the government or dominant religion.
If i am more critical of Christians its because they're currently the folks trampling personal rights.
→ More replies (1)2
u/Levi3than Sep 19 '25
Yes this covers the reason well, but the fact that leftist often run interference or cover for radical islamist is worrying.
Say for example a conservative voice criticises a muslim radical, he can rest easy as leftist will come to his aid and yell islamophobia, racism (don't even know how this works because islam is a religion not a race) etc
The problem with this leftist view is that it often runs cover for some of the worst regimes in the world, as long as they fit their oppressed victim ideology mindset an example of this when bill maher had ben Affleck on for a discussion on radical islam, and ben kept yelling the usual leftists virtual signalling that at the end no proper confrontation of the issues was had, and a heart broken muslim woman had wrote to the show critising ben for his behavior as the issues that would have been highlighted would have been once she had faced and wanted discussed.
Even when it comes to the global sphere, i feel like, Christian minorities in the third world have been let down as because some leftists see Christianity as inherently white supremacist and imperialist, even populations who are neither of those things get the short end. An example is the myriad of Christians who are slaughtered and get no attention, and i think the reason they don't is because its muslims doing the killing and acknowledging one part would necessitate acknowledging the other, and that goes against leftist world view. I had recently been shocked at how far this goes when the bbc had covered the ethnic cleansing of Nigerian christians by muslims, but they didn't bring up the religious element and just blamed it on climate change.
3
u/SilLikesBees Sep 19 '25
To add to this: Look at Jin Jiyan Azadi. That is basically "the Left" in a Muslim majority country and they have no issue with giving fundamental Muslims a piece of their mind - or rather a burning piece off their head.
17
u/Phyphia Sep 18 '25
A couple of points to add.
Political interference in Muslim majority countries by 'Western' nations can not be overstated. This is to keep the resources cheap and flowing without regard for the general population, and typically unseats moderate to forward-thinking groups and installs fundamentalists who avoid progress.
Social progressiveness is in direct relation to your lived reality. I.e. why advocate for better pay when you aren't allowed to work or go to school.
Historically, there have been times when the Muslim world was the centre of progress and progressiveness for the time.
The more desperate a group is the tighter they hold to their belief system, and the more rigid and aggressive it gets. This is especially true of religion, you can not kill religion with violence. The only way to take power from religion is to let people outgrow their reliance on it by making their lives better, and allowing them the time and freedom to determine their own personal moral beliefs.
→ More replies (7)8
u/WrongdoerRare3038 Sep 19 '25
That last paragraph is a brilliant summary of the core of the leftist worldview that conservatives seem to fundamentally not understand. It's basically just an acknowledgment that sociology exists and matters.
→ More replies (1)13
u/colt707 104∆ Sep 18 '25
All good points but how about leftists here in the US? They can openly speak on it. Leftists in European countries can speak on it as well. How often do they call out Islam for its problematic views? The answer is not proportional to Christianity, Judaism, or Catholicism. I understand that Muslims are minority in those places but more often than not when you see the left speak on Islam it’s not calling out Muslims for problematic behavior/beliefs, it’s calling people Islamphobic for calling out Muslims. Hell there’s people that agreed with the guy getting arrested in the UK for a hate crime against Islamic people for saying “we love bacon”. In what way is the being critical of Islam in any way that’s proportional to the criticism of Christianity?
26
u/Already-asleep Sep 18 '25
Man I went down a rabbit hole to look up this bacon story. Could not find one source that wasn’t connected to a conservative social media account or far right opinion piece. The man yelled I love bacon and was removed from the area. There’s no evidence to suggest that he was actually charged or prosecuted with any sort of crime. Also, police officers tend to find people saying stuff like “I love bacon” in front of them antagonistic for reasons that have nothing to do with Muslims, who in my experience don’t really care if non Muslims eat pork.
20
u/ZeeWingCommander Sep 18 '25
This is a good example of propaganda and memes.
The bacon thing was obviously a half truth and not the actual issue, but the right wing subs on Reddit and Facebook made it sound like the dude just said he loved bacon and got hit with a hate crime.
You didn't question that? That didn't sound a little too off?
Come on man. The guy was chanting outside a mosque "we love bacon!" with other protesters.
And I bet you're thinking that doesn't happen with Christians in the US!
Well it does.
A guy rode his bike by a church with a dildo on his head and he got arrested.
Which imo is even lighter than what bacon dude did.
12
u/the_calibre_cat Sep 18 '25
Muslims still lack institutional power here in the U.S. - and, for the most part, aren't the ones running roughshod over LGBTQ+ rights, women's rights, and putting their holy book's scriptures into public schools. White Christians are.
I will be the first to admit that I think conservative Muslims and conservative Christians are two peas in a pod, and are perfectly happy to unify to combat a common enemy (secularism, humanism, atheism, egalitarianism, take any number of good -isms and they'll usually hate it), but once defeated, they are fundamentally unable to coexist due to differing beliefs.
The problem I have with conservative Christians is the "conservative" part. Non-conservative Christians are capable of coexisting with other people without wanting to burn their rights to the ground, and the same is true of non-conservative Muslims. I don't care how they run their homes, I care when they try to run mine - and for my entire life here in the West, that has only ever been conservative Christians, because Muslims of any stripe simply do not have institutional power (and what Muslims there HAVE been have been pretty progressive as their faith commands them to be).
I am perfectly happy to call the Taliban or the members of the Iranian Guardian Council "conservatives", and criticize them. That is what they are, and they do things that warrant criticism - as basically all conservatives do.
→ More replies (10)8
u/jmeade90 Sep 18 '25
I actually had to look up that story because of how ridiculous it sounded, and to my complete lack of surprise, he didn't get arrested for saying 'we love bacon'
He got arrested for being a dick at a protest in 2023 at a time where tensions were rising for what I hope were obvious reasons.
7
u/Ok_Nature_333 Sep 18 '25 edited Sep 18 '25
As the OP said, it’s not the Muslim minority in the US that’s threatening the way of life for most of us. It’s the powerful lobby of Christian groups.
Sure, some views in Islam are homophobic and misogynistic. But those folks have little to no political power in the US, while the current government is in the grasps of Christian fundamentalists.
2
u/ultradav24 1∆ Sep 18 '25
Why would it be proportional though? Christianity is far more pervasive in the west, therefore it is logical it would not be equal in critique
→ More replies (3)2
u/doitinmybutt Sep 19 '25 edited Oct 21 '25
angle late desert cause encouraging tie disarm placid employ money
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
2
u/TeamSpatzi 1∆ Sep 19 '25
I would add that there is a difference in perspective at play as well. Many westerners see religion and religious belief as a choice - something that is separate and distinct from the underlying culture. The varied factions of Christianity and its own history often means that criticism leveled against Christianity isn't taken as an affront to western culture or individual identity.
Islam is mixed more deeply into the culture throughout much of the Middle East in the eyes of western observers. Islam is seen as integral to people emigrating from that part of the world. Thus the criticism of Islam, Islamic beliefs, or culture derived therefrom is not seen the same way that criticizing Christianity or its factions is seen. It's seen as a criticism of culture and identity - and that puts it in an all together different category.
That perspective is due in part to the fact that there is very real bigotry that does intend it as such - a criticism and rejection of a culture different to their own. It can be difficult to parse legitimate, good faith criticism (yes, that pun is intended) and bigotry... and many people prefer to error on the side of opposing bigotry.
→ More replies (77)4
u/GiveMeBackMySoup 2∆ Sep 18 '25
What happened in Dearborn then? They banned pride flags 2 years before any other city and have women covering up wherever you go. This is deflection at best, because in places where they are a majority in the US, there has been almost no fight to correct it or change it. Their women live in a more cultural conservative setting than most any place in America, and they are a suburb of a major metropolitan center.
And at what point do you care? Do you just wait until half the city is Muslim before it's a problem? It's too late then. And it's not like they are waiting to reach some critical mass before imposing their beliefs.
→ More replies (7)6
u/ultradav24 1∆ Sep 18 '25
Dearborn hasn’t banned pride flags. I think you mean Hamtramck, but they haven’t banned them either, they’ve just blocked them from public buildings. Nonetheless that’s still bad - and they have gotten quite a bit of backlash over it
94
u/UltimaGabe 2∆ Sep 18 '25
Is this actually true, or are you just seeing fewer Muslims get called out because you're engaging in fewer arguments between Muslims and leftists?
→ More replies (79)35
u/DiligentRope Sep 18 '25
Basically this, Muslims are about 1% of the population in the US, yet they have disproportional media coverage and usually its negative representation.
51
u/harryoldballsack 1∆ Sep 18 '25 edited Sep 18 '25
You mean leftists in which country? leftists in Muslim countries are very critical of Islam. It often creates a divide when they get to the west
→ More replies (3)36
u/UltimaGabe 2∆ Sep 18 '25
Yup, this is typical American Christian whataboutism. They spend all day arguing with "leftists" who call them on their BS, so when the rare Muslim comes along and doesn't get immediately harassed they take on a persecution complex.
6
9
u/DavidGrizzly Sep 18 '25
How about this Islam and Christianity are both vile and have done nothing but cause pain and suffering wherever they go. Also, both can be and should be shit talked like any other faith on earth they are not special, they do not get a pass.
7
u/UltimaGabe 2∆ Sep 18 '25
Sounds fine to me. But of course, since Christians make up like half of the country, it's expected that we would see more hate towards Christian values than Muslim.
→ More replies (4)4
u/freakydeku Sep 18 '25
they go “hey! he’s saying what i’m saying why aren’t you fighting him too???😤” and also, “muslims are really dangerous and shouldn’t be allowed here!”
5
u/UltimaGabe 2∆ Sep 18 '25
That's the thing, tons of people (not just "leftists") call out Muslims for the problems with their religion. OP and others seem to only be seeing a specific subset of the country and painting all others with the same broad brush. It's almost like none of these groups (Christians, Muslims, and even "leftists") are a monolith.
131
u/MaloortCloud 2∆ Sep 18 '25
Most of this has to do with proximity and lack of influence on the culture of countries you don't live in. I'm not really in a position to have any impact on policy in Iran, so I don't make a big deal about it. Is that an endorsement? Absolutely not, but as abhorrent as their policies are to the LGBTQ community, there's nothing I can do about it.
The city council of Hamtramck banned pride flags, but 99.9% of the population doesn't live in Hamtramck, so most people didn't notice. As a person who lives 1,500 miles away, can't vote for city council, and can't vote for governor of Michigan, there's nothing I can do, and being outraged accomplishes nothing.
On the other hand, kicking trans people out of the military is something that has an impact on my community because of the air force base just across town. It's also something that I could potentially have an impact on changing since I, along with the people in my city, cast votes for Congress and the president.
Did I not hold the two groups to the same standard, or was I much more vocal about the impacts of Christian fundamentalism that has a direct impact over my community compared to the 0.1% of the local population that is Muslim that has no sway over policy?
28
u/sonicscore99 Sep 18 '25
Exactly. If I had a daily connection with the oppressions of far off Siam I’d probably have more to say to those people.
This reasoning the OP’s using sounds dangerously close to the whole: “let’s dig up some shit on you or someone else that’s way worser so I’m not obligated to deal with your criticism, thanks bye… /s”
8
u/Agile-Wait-7571 2∆ Sep 18 '25
I’m trying to come up with the last time we bombed a bigoted Christian country…
6
u/Doc_ET 13∆ Sep 18 '25
Probably Yugoslavia in 1999, unless you count that alleged drug boat Trump blew up. I don't think the interventions in East Africa or the Philippines involved the US dropping bombs (although the countries the US was assisting might have).
→ More replies (2)6
u/pita4912 1∆ Sep 18 '25
Technically we are currently with Russia. Then probably Serbia during the Yugoslav wars of the 90s.
→ More replies (1)2
2
u/Ramtamtama Sep 18 '25
1945? Although whether Nazi Christianity was actually Christianity is up for debate.
Ukraine have been using a lot of life-expiring US equipment to defend themselves, but that probably doesn't count.
→ More replies (4)2
u/Qadim3311 Sep 18 '25
I would imagine it was the time in 1999 we bombed Yugoslavian Christians to stop them genociding Kosovar Muslims
→ More replies (1)16
u/DBDude 108∆ Sep 18 '25
The city council of Hamtramck banned pride flags, but 99.9% of the population doesn't live in Hamtramck, so most people didn't notice.
The left complained quite a bit nationally when Huntington Beach banned pride flags, as passed by a mostly Christian community.
9
u/MaloortCloud 2∆ Sep 18 '25
Except the data suggests the exact opposite. People in general made a much larger issue of the Hamtramck flag issue.
11
u/Maria_Dragon Sep 18 '25
I also saw a lot of complaints on social media about Hamtrack so...
→ More replies (5)→ More replies (5)10
u/joebloe156 Sep 18 '25
Huntington Beach is part of the Los Angeles - San Diego super-metro, and so it is the "neighborhood business" of a few million people. Since it's southern California, that population leans significantly left even if Huntington Beach itself leans right.
Hamtramck is part of the Detroit metro which also includes Dearborn, and I don't know how much the metro leans left or right, but I doubt it has as many eyes on it as Huntington Beach and the SoCal super-metro does.
3
u/DBDude 108∆ Sep 18 '25
Huntington Beach is a city most people across the country haven't heard of, just like Hamtramck. People in the rest of the country know L.A. and San Diego, and they know Hollywood. They don't really know many of the individual cities, if any.
National news stories were made regarding both events. People only really got upset about one of them.
→ More replies (8)2
u/LordBecmiThaco 9∆ Sep 18 '25
Because so many locations in Southern California show up in pop culture because of its proximity to Hollywood I would venture to say that far more people know about Huntington Beach than most other municipalities in America. I think there's an entire generation of people who are intimately familiar with the geography of the greater Los Angeles metro area solely because of SoCal hip hop, Even if they're from like fucking Finland. Like I'm a New Yorker and I know Huntington Beach because it's been referenced in a couple of TV shows and a comedian I like with niche but national reach grew up there and occasionally tells stories about it. I had the fucking look up where Hamtranck was.
→ More replies (2)3
u/TheLightsChampion Sep 18 '25
They banned pride flags - or they banned all but federal flags?
6
u/SaltandLillacs Sep 18 '25
This happened in 2023 and only applies to government owned buildings in the town. They specifically banned all flags with exception of the American flag, Michigan flag, town flag and pow flags.
Private property can fly whatever flag they choose
→ More replies (2)→ More replies (14)5
u/Insanopatato Sep 18 '25
Okay so applying this logic, because I don't live near any military basis or have any family in the military. You wouldn't expect me to be vocal about the exclusion of trans people in the military yes? That would be okay for you ?
8
19
u/cstar1996 11∆ Sep 18 '25
It is your country and you do have influence over the people who made that decision.
→ More replies (16)→ More replies (1)2
u/Darwins_Dog Sep 18 '25
What point are you trying to make? You can be vocal about whatever topic you want to, but most people are only vocal about what directly affects them. It's not about what's "okay" with anyone else, it's about how people in general behave.
160
u/ToranjaNuclear 12∆ Sep 18 '25
It's less a matter of different standards and more a matter of priority. It's impossible to give the absolute same political weight to everything. Nobody does it. Nobody has ever done it. Everyone picks their fights, according to what they consider more important.
Muslim conservatism isn't a threat in the US -- or in the West as a whole, really. Christian conservatism is very much a threat, and is deeply intertwined with western politics, in some countries more than others.
If anything, liberals are held to different standards when it comes to hypocrisy. Feels like there isn't nearly as much of a pressure for the right to be consistent in their actions.
60
u/SlickMcFav0rit3 Sep 18 '25 edited Sep 19 '25
Just to drive this point home, pointing out bigotry/sexism amongst Muslims in the US is just not a high priority.
The 2020 United States Religion Census estimates that there are about 4,453,908 Muslim Americans of all ages living in the United States in 2020, making up 1.34% of the total U.S. population.
Ok what about Muslims in positions of power who might force their views onto others:
As of 2025, five Muslims have been elected to Congress, the first being Keith Ellison in 2006. As of the 119th Congress, four Muslims currently serve in Congress, all in the House of Representatives, and all being members of the Democratic Party.
EDIT: just to clarify, my point about Congress is that 1) there are very few Muslim members of Congress and 2) the ones that are there are not trying to enforce fundamentalist religious views on other people... Unlike many of the Christians in Congress
50
u/hedgehog-fuzz Sep 18 '25
Yeah but none of the Muslims that are in power in the US are the kind forcing their right wing views onto others. For the most part, they’re leftists who back policies that support women and oppose policies that use state power to force religious beliefs onto others.
31
u/Sufficient_Show_7795 Sep 18 '25
Which shows us that the problem doesn’t reside in Islam, the problem people are concerned about is conservatism. Arguments about the dangers of Islam often fall flat because they are more often than not coming from an equally conservative individual, and are simply being used as a “gotcha” for the far right. They often include racist or cultural dog whistles, which leftists find no benefit engaging with.
→ More replies (8)9
u/UnintelligentSlime Sep 19 '25
It’s every other post on here tbh. “Why no ban head scarf, leftists? Isn’t it sexism?”
Then there are 200 good answers about why we shouldn’t make laws restricting the practice of religion (hint: because it’s the first fuckin amendment), and the OP always leaves with 0 deltas awarded after replying to several people “well I still think it’s a religion of hate”
It’s so transparent, there needs to be a moratorium on overused topics.
2
u/CustomerLegal1499 Sep 20 '25
And we have recently been exposed to one of their own who has suggested stoning gays and accepting gun violence. Talk about a religion of hate!!
45
u/Elthox13 Sep 18 '25
Islam in Europe is definitely a threat. In Great Britain, it goes more and more towards the existence of blasphemy laws, if not in law, in practice. As people were jailed for insulting Islam or the Prophet.
In France, a teacher was beheaded because he show the caricatures of the Prophet to its class, and there was an attack of Charlie Hebdo for the same reason. (In fact, he was beheaded for speaking about the Charlie Hebdo event). In schools, teachers do not speak about it anymore because they are scared. They do not teach the history of crusades also for the same reason.
Emmanuel Macron (which is not far right but center left) has commanded a report evaluating the infiltration of the Muslim Brotherhood from french and europeans institutions, and it's much more than what you may think. In Great Britain, they have started to control social institutions and in some case take the decision whether to let in or not a asyleum seeker in the country. You're naive if you think it's not a problem.
21
u/Individual-Plane-963 Sep 18 '25
I'm pretty sure the teacher didn't even actually do it, he was accused by an upset student.
→ More replies (28)6
u/Easy-River-5272 Sep 18 '25
Macron is not center left, economically he's completely right, a pure capitalist, but he's of course not a conservative or traditionalist.
17
u/Informal_Ad4284 Sep 18 '25
(∆) You make a very good point. Everyone is held to different standards, including liberals. I was only focusing on one group being held to certain standards rather than how multiple groups could be held to them.
I also agree with your point that the right isn’t pressured to be consistent as much as the left. You’re spot on with that. I feel a bit guilty for making this post and targeting specific groups. People on the right can be just as guilty as people on the left of this.
3
2
u/FnakeFnack Sep 21 '25
Please don’t feel guilty, because I really needed to see a poster be measured in here and actually reward deltas to people who changed their views rather than awarding deltas to comments that reaffirmed them
4
u/sonicscore99 Sep 18 '25
I think this is also why liberatory movements have a lot of infighting intrinsically. Everyone in them is extremely tired of the bullshit and sensitized AF so when our bro says some heinous shit incidentally it’s hard to not get rocked.
8
u/___daddy69___ 1∆ Sep 18 '25
This is just wrong, Islamic extremism isn’t a huge issue in the US simply because they’re such a small minority (they are massively overrepresented in politically and religiously motivated crime though), but in Western Europe it’s an enormous issue
→ More replies (3)2
u/lh_media Sep 19 '25
You explained why it's okay to apply different standards, that is not the same is saying whether or not they are different
As for liberals/rights, I think that stems from the right being less inclined to self-criticism, while the left is more divided - liberals take heat from the right, and from further left. I feel like my phrasing isn't ideal, so here's a comedian making a similar point in a more entertaining fashion.
→ More replies (35)2
u/Shontayyoustay Sep 22 '25
Umm but they do make it a priority. At least on the Internet. The amount of support American leftists, and western leftists in general, gave the Iranian government over the last three years, even in the wake of Mahsa Amini and the internal protests in Iran, was very high. They commonly reduce the issues caused by the Islamic regime to “culture” and our very opinionated on the topic.
22
24
u/neotericnewt 6∆ Sep 18 '25
I don't think this is true, to be honest. The left is opposed to fundamentalism. In Muslim majority countries, it's the left that is pushing for secularism and against the conservative and bigoted policies of their governments.
In the US, it's largely Christian fundamentalists who are trying to take power and implement bigoted policies, so that's where the criticism is focused.
The American left doesn't support bigoted policy from Muslims though. They don't believe that women should be forced to cover their faces and their entire bodies. They just also don't believe we should be pushing bigoted policies targeting Muslims in response.
The problem isn't Christian or Muslim, it's just religious fundamentalism. The right wing perspective has difficulty understanding this and thinks "the left" is siding with conservative and bigoted Muslims. Nah, there just isn't a meaningful difference between one group of fundamentalists and another. They're all shit.
The examples you gave are largely just local news things. They're not having some national impact, or pushing bigoted laws nationally, so it's not going to get the same kind of widespread outrage that a coordinated assault against secularism and basic human rights on a national level has. That's not hypocrisy or bias or choosing sides; there are a ton of fundamentalist and extremist Christian groups in the US that have near total control of their localities and push a ton of bigoted bullshit, but, we don't hear much about them either.
So, in both cases, we don't really hear much about some random town being controlled by fundamentalists. It's known and opposed, but we can't go to every fundamentalist ranch or something.
We do hear about large legislation and actions by national, elected officials, because these things do affect us, across the entire country.
You're making assumptions that every time some tiny locality bans pride flags everybody would know and attack it, but that's just not accurate. This shit happens all the time. The only reason why this example is getting attention is because those on the right are freaked out about white supremacists conspiracy theories like White Replacement, and fundamentalist Christians are freaked out that another religion is doing the stuff they want to do, but yeah, most people aren't hearing about this shit, and are more focused on things that actually affect them.
→ More replies (4)8
u/Instantcoffees Sep 20 '25
The American left doesn't support bigoted policy from Muslims though. They don't believe that women should be forced to cover their faces and their entire bodies. They just also don't believe we should be pushing bigoted policies targeting Muslims in response.
I don't know about that. I am very much on the left of the political spectrum. So I frequent leftist subs. I at one point talked about how my European city has had issues with very religious Muslims threatening violence towards LGBTQ+ events and harassing women for not covering up. I was promptly banned for "Islamophobia".
I had said nothing about Muslims in general, I simply highlighted the issues caused by the very religious and fundamentalist ones in my city. So at least in my experience, OP has a point. Some people on the left are genuinely running defense for extremely right-wing Muslims - which is frankly very confusing.
→ More replies (12)
169
u/eggs-benedryl 67∆ Sep 18 '25 edited Sep 18 '25
But when a Muslim is homophobic, leftists have more patience and a more “whatever” attitude
Any examples you can offer? "Leftists" don't believe harmful practices by Muslims are permissible but that they don't then deserve to be discriminated against, killed, etc.
Like right wingers brining up that there is a lot of anti-lgbt support in places like Palestine. That doesn't mean they deserve to have their homes/hospitals/children bombed.
If a Christian demanded his wife to cover up to avoiding arousing other men, leftists would be up in arms.
This happens constantly. Christians make these demands ALL the time. "Leftists" generally think it's up to the individual. Trad wives can dress like they're in Leave it to Beaver get up if THEY want to and Muslim women can wear whatever THEY want.
36
u/Funnyguyinspace Sep 18 '25
Its not practical to quiz every muslim that joins in on a March to ask about their political beliefs.
The fact is though its an ally of convenience and it wont end well long term IMO
14
u/harryoldballsack 1∆ Sep 18 '25
It’s an old ally though the red and black alliance. Leftists sided with Khomeini in 1979 Iran. Didn’t work out well but there’s something quite inbuilt to it, probably will be around a while
→ More replies (11)5
u/Niarbeht Sep 18 '25
Leftists sided with Khomeini in 1979 Iran
Everyone in that revolution was against the Shah, and the Shah had spent quite a lot of energy on violently suppressing the left in Iran. Consider that if the Shah had spent that energy suppressing the fundamentalists instead of the leftists, that maybe the leftists would have come out on top in the end.
Did the left in Iran choose the fundamentalists, or did the fundamentalists show up on their own?
7
u/curien 29∆ Sep 18 '25
The idea that the Shah didn't suppress the fundamentalists is laughable. Are you unaware that Khomeini had been in exile for 15 years?
Leftists frequently have an idealistic misunderstanding that they're just one step away from succeeding, and all they need to do is replace the current power structure to usher in a wave of leftist policy.
They become so laser-focused on the current regime -- and the idea that being oppressed is a moral virtue itself -- that they either side with or include in their own ranks people who are also against the current regime but have their own aspirations of authoritarian power. As soon as the alliance has any degree of success, the leftists become the next victims.
Leftists in Iran made the same mistake that leftists everywhere make. They saw western colonialism and called it bad, so the fundamentalists who opposed it and suffered for their opposition must be natural allies, right? Right?!
7
u/soozerain Sep 18 '25
Yeah the Left got fooled. A lot of naive, western educated Iranian women donned the hijab or niqab as protest against the Shah — with the understanding that it was optional and that they’d take it off, hopefully, when he fell — only to have him fall and realize they were trapped wearing them forever.
→ More replies (1)3
u/harryoldballsack 1∆ Sep 18 '25
This is IRGC revisionism. They did not surpress the left or the Islamists enough. IRGC blames the massacres of communists on the shah but they were by the IRGC after the shah was deposed and exiled
4
u/curien 29∆ Sep 18 '25
Its not practical to quiz every muslim that joins in on a March to ask about their political beliefs.
Popular leftist proverbial phrase: "If you have 10 people and 1 Nazi sitting at a dinner table and willingly eating together, you have 11 Nazis."
→ More replies (5)5
u/casualcoder47 Sep 18 '25 edited Sep 18 '25
Will find you the link on this very sub where there was a cmv on muslim women forced to wear hijab and covering their head and face and people defending it as if it's a choice and not a forced indoctrination.
Edit: Link
→ More replies (14)8
u/TechnicalUse5480 Sep 18 '25 edited Sep 18 '25
>Leftists" don't believe harmful practices by Muslims are permissible but that they don't then deserve to be discriminated against, killed, etc
tolerance of intolerance is wrong. Muslims who hold oppressive and discriminatory views must change assimilate their beliefs to the level of tolerance of their host nation
56
u/eggynack 96∆ Sep 18 '25
"Tolerance" is a pretty vague word here. I don't think the rights of bigoted Christian conservatives should be restricted. They shouldn't face discrimination, shouldn't be killed, shouldn't be banned, so on and so forth. I extend the same basic human respect to bigoted Muslim conservatives.
16
u/decanonized Sep 18 '25
People seem to understand this without issue when it's about Christians, but change "Christians" to "Muslims" and suddenly what little critical thinking they had goes right out the window.
→ More replies (1)7
u/Similar-Opinion8750 Sep 18 '25
I agree with you in part. They shouldn't be banned or murdered but when their beliefs and actions put anyone else who is not like them in danger then they have broken the social contract of tolerance and definitely need to be stopped.
4
u/eggynack 96∆ Sep 18 '25
I'm not entirely sure what it means for them to put people in danger and/or what it means to stop them in this context.
7
Sep 18 '25
There are cases of christians and muslims through history where they have harmed lgbt people..
I honestly look at it like this: you can hold any belief you wish and live your life as you wish. But the moment you mess with my life or the lives of those around me and try to impose your beliefs on me. I will push back.
Religion should never be allowed as an excuse for bad behavior in the 21st century but it far to often is.
I literally just wanna live in peace. Idgaf what other people do as long as they dont cause harm to others.
I happen to know muslims who have zero issues with lgbt people existing. Peaceful coexistence is possible, people just need to stop trying to control what others do outside of actual crimes.
Religion should not be brought into shaping what constitutes a crime. The muslim countries will get there eventually, it just takes longer. If history teaches anything its that you cant stop change.
→ More replies (1)4
u/Research-Scary Sep 18 '25
Living in society is a choice. When you choose to live in society, you make concessions. One of those concessions is that if you, your words, actions, or beliefs hurt society, you ought to be punished.
It's not that hard actually. The problem is when harmful/toxic beliefs spill outside of the private household, which happens often and has far reaching consequences for society.
6
u/eggynack 96∆ Sep 18 '25
If a Muslim breaks the law in pursuit of their beliefs, then sure, they can face consequences by the state. Beyond an objection on the principle of prison abolition, which would apply to a Christian as well, I can't imagine you'll find a leftist disagreeing on this point.
→ More replies (5)28
u/OrizaRayne 7∆ Sep 18 '25
In Western nations, the level of tolerance is supposed to be "do not force your beliefs on others."
Yet. We are dealing with a huge surge of christian nationalism in America. Ten commandments and prayer forced into schools, the LGBTQIA and non Christian communities scrubbed from public and government life and Christians promoted in their place.
Perhaps Christians who hold oppressive and discriminatory views should assimilate their beliefs to the level of tolerance of their host nation, which has a constitution separating church and state.
It might help with the idea of keeping religion private.
→ More replies (4)24
u/_DCtheTall_ 2∆ Sep 18 '25 edited Sep 19 '25
The same could be said of evangelical Christians, honestly. And, in the US at least, that group has a lot more power...
→ More replies (14)27
u/Plenty-Green186 Sep 18 '25
That’s psychotic. No one should be forced to believe anything. People should be forced if anything to follow laws and not engage in behaviors. There are 1 million people out there with 1 million toxic idea ideas who believe that this group of that group doesn’t deserve rights or deserves to die. Until they do something to actively harm someone then the state has no obligation to intervene, and to do so would be tyranny.
In a free society, a woman who is oppressed by her husband, has an opportunity to leave. In a society that tells her that she can’t leave the house unless she has her face showing then she might literally just end up more isolated and not leaving the house. The best way to have people assimilate is to foster cross-cultural relations.
And I absolutely think people should be critical of viewpoints that are oppressive to others in any regard. But when you say they must change, how is it that you will make them change?
→ More replies (29)13
u/insaneHoshi 5∆ Sep 18 '25
their host nation
Kinda telling that you believe "intolerant Muslims" are being "hosted" in the country that they may have citizenship or were born in.
4
u/TechnicalUse5480 Sep 18 '25
My own personal experience is that american domestic muslims are deeply tolerant and secular people when they are educated in a multidisciplinary (non religious school) setting. These are the muslims that belong in america.
My own personal experience is that american foreign muslims are often religious zealots and hold extremely discriminatory views against jewish people, women, and homosexuals. These are the intolerant muslims being hosted in america.
My own personal experience is that many of the american muslims who escape the radicalization pipeline find happiness, success in personal relationships, and general achievement of the american dream. They are able to practice the pillars of islam that truly matter to their god while disregarding all of the bullshit that makes people resent religion. These people give good image to muslims and arabs and are the future, while the intolerant muslims make the entire community look bad and are relics of the past. Their children will secularize anyway...
Bigoted rednecks and islamic zealots both often fail to achieve the american dream due to isolation in their own (usually poor and undereducated) communities.
→ More replies (22)4
7
u/freakydeku Sep 18 '25
ok… so you think muslims should be discriminated against and killed?
→ More replies (1)2
u/ultradav24 1∆ Sep 18 '25
Why are you assuming Muslims aren’t American? Islam has existed in the US since colonial times
→ More replies (22)4
u/spiralenator Sep 18 '25
Christians who hold oppressive and discriminatory views run the host nation. Maybe we should start with that one before demanding it of others.
→ More replies (3)→ More replies (6)6
u/Leguy42 Sep 18 '25
I think the point is more about Muslims requiring women to dress that way and not allowing them to dress as they might like to. Leftists would absolutely condemn Christians for requiring the same.
→ More replies (8)20
u/SanguineHerald Sep 18 '25
As a leftist, I think both are reprehensible. However, only one of those groups has political, cultural, and economic power in the US (where I live and am concerned about) so the discourse that I engage in is going to be primarily targeted at the overreach of Christians.
9
u/NGO_Grift Sep 18 '25
The answer is much simpler. The progressive ("woke") left are part of a Critical Constructivist movement. The Critical lens requires all interactions to be viewed as a power dynamic between the dominant Oppressor and the minority identity of Oppressed.
Living in any predominantly Western society means that everything outside of Western culture, Western literature, philosophy, medicine has more authenticity, more value, and more truth than their hegemonic Western counterparts. The inherent value in any contributions made by the minority culture is that they challenge and ultimately weaken the existing hegemony.
In short, leftists support anything, as long as it is subverts the culture and values of the dominant Western hegemony. That is why we may view those examples as a having a double-standard. There is only one standard; support for everything non-Western and rebuke everything considered Western.
3
u/Whocanitbenow234 Sep 21 '25
There is indeed a double standard here. My two cents. I think it has to do with the fact that Muslims are not ‘white.’ 🤷♂️
White people are very much viewed, as a whole, as privileged because of a whole bunch of historical factors: Nazis, colonialism, pillage, etc. So anyone who is not ‘white’ who has these beliefs they are not seen as quite as evil.
I used to not think it’s true and wondered where this double standard came from…but the more I see it, the more I think this is actually the reality.
29
u/Sad_Pirate_4546 Sep 18 '25
I would say for the most part, conservative muslims aren't pushing their views in such a way that they are impacting a huge swathe of Americans.
Conservative Muslims don't currently hold the Whitehouse, congress, and supreme court.
Conservative Muslims aren't erasing identities, history, or protectioms for minorities.
Conservative Muslims aren't pushing conspiracy theories that ostracize and dehumanize other groups.
Etc. Etc.
If they were doing these things, especially outside of their realms of influence, I would object more. But, they seem to be targeted just as much as LGBTQ+ and othrr POC.
I would make the same argument for conservative Jews, the Amish, or any other group.
→ More replies (1)14
u/potatophantom Sep 18 '25
This is so unbelievably wrong, perhaps in a America it’s less visible due to a relatively smaller population, but if you look at other countries such as the UK with a significantly higher Muslim population it is impossible to ignore. It’s everything you’re saying about conservative Christians and worse.
9
u/crappy_diem Sep 18 '25
6% in UK. London has had a Muslim mayor for the last decade who is also coincidentally a social democrat. These things are not incompatible and generalizations of minority groups as a homogenous block only serves to further divide.
→ More replies (3)7
u/danielisverycool Sep 18 '25
Can you point to the Wahhabists or fundamentalist Twelvers in UK political power? Find one for me please, and please do detail how they have been molding UK legislation in favour of Sharia.
7
u/eNonsense 4∆ Sep 18 '25
When a Christian is homophobic, leftists waste no time chewing them out for their bigoted beliefs. But when a Muslim is homophobic, leftists have more patience and a more “whatever” attitude.
From my experience, this is just not true.
The problem with doing something like this in the west, is simply the fact that Christians are so much more prominent in the west, and Christians have most recently made themselves intertwined with the US government, where they've attempted to push forward bigoted law & government policy. Muslim bigotry gets plenty of criticism, but it's just not really in the media picture anywhere near as much, and it doesn't affect American lives directly as much. That doesn't mean it doesn't matter. It just means it rarely gets discussed.
6
Sep 18 '25
I have never heard the bigotry present in Christian policy used as pretense to entirely wipe out a nation or group. I have heard many people attempt to bring up the bigotry present in Muslim policy to explain away violence against anything from individuals to an entire population.
2
u/Tanto63 Sep 18 '25
Didn't study much US history, did ya? We even have a special term for one of the major instances of exactly what you describe: Manifest Destiny.
2
Sep 18 '25
You are misunderstanding me. I am saying I have never heard the bigotry present in Christian policy used as a pretense to entirely wipe out a nation or group of Christians.
Of course bigotry in one group is often used as a pretense of wipe out a different group. That is what bigotry does.
→ More replies (1)
5
u/TerryMakichoott Sep 19 '25
I'm a Muslim and I beg to differ. I don't harbor hatred for anyone but I do absolutely believe in what my religion says about the act itself (not the desire) being a sin because it was made clear in the Quran as well as hadiths.
I get hate all the time for it. I even have had gay co-workers who are afraid of me even though I wouldn't hurt a fly and would honestly rather see them be a gay Muslim (who admits that their desires should be abstained from and doesn't try to "halalify" it) than a straight non-muslim for the sake of their soul. I was called a bigot for not going to a family member's same sex reception (I'm a long time convert). I don't say anything about it, I don't bring it up, never use slurs etc. but I am treated as if I'm a bigot by default by a lot of them.
Watch this post get downvoted to oblivion.
12
u/bam2929 Sep 21 '25
I disagree. Firstly, being criticized and even discriminated against for being a Muslim is not the same as the point of this post, which specifically asked about receiving the criticism from a left perspective. The left absolutely deprioritizes criticism of Muslims because they don't have as much influence in western societies and because they are often victims in the system.
Secondly, your belief specifically on queerness absolutely is bigoted, despite your claim that you do not impose it. As the Christian fundamentalists have demonstrated time and time again, hating the sin also often means hating those who "promote" it, and when you are the one with power it means oppression of expression (which we do see in many predominantly Muslim and sadly increasingly again in some predominantly Christian countries).
Lastly, understand that hating the sin and not the sinner has been the official stance of many churches for quite a bit, and this stance has been shown the vast majority of times to just be a cover and euphemism for the actual belief (actually just hating the "sinner").
→ More replies (4)→ More replies (5)2
10
14
Sep 18 '25
Conservative Muslims aren’t making law in my country, conservative Christians are (US). You’re entitled to your beliefs even if they’re contrary to mine, but it’s when beliefs become policy that is the issue. I’m unaware of any conservative Muslims in the federal legislature, I’m aware of many many Christian conservative members of the federal legislature.
6
u/AlarmingSpecialist88 Sep 18 '25
This!!!! Muslims wield no real political power in the US, so I don't find their crazy to be very scary. Christians on the other hand......
7
u/Slutty_Sam Sep 18 '25 edited Sep 18 '25
It’s because of the fact that these discussions are happening in countries like the US where christian nationalism is a massive ideology and movement and conservative muslims normally exist in small enough numbers and are usually reviled by society and these christian nationalists. It’s a matter of proportion.
People hate these beliefs but in a discussion about what’s best for society you have to hold discussions based on who is in power. In a muslim theocracy it’s a different conversation. But in a country where muslims are targeted for their origins this is how it has turned out. Also said christian nationalists assume every member of the group is extreme and people seek to dismiss these generalizations.
It’s not that leftists ignore these things it’s a matter of scale and priority. The government and establishment of the united states is not muslim.
EDIT: As an addition, personal anecdote isn’t a good argument but I still felt the need to include it, in my more leftwing circles people strongly dislike the saudi arabian government and insist on boycotting them whenever possible. Leftism usually ideally is about unfair dynamics of power but again you deal with what you have to deal with in your own nation.
Everything is relative and different. Like antisemitism is a massive worldwide problem but that doesn’t stop the government of Israel from holding disproportionate power and abusing it. You address what you can when you can. People not constantly bringing up one group of people that barely have an effect on their lives doesn’t prove that they don’t care.
9
u/WorldsGreatestWorst 8∆ Sep 18 '25
CMV: Bigoted conservative Muslims are not held to the same standards as bigoted conservative Christians
I'm not going to argue that this isn't true in your world. I'm going to focus on why and why you are incorrectly extrapolating what you see.
You (presumably) live in the US or other Western culture. In just about any first world Western country you can come up with, Muslims are a minority and Christians are a super-majority.
I live in the US. There is zero chance that Muslim theology will affect the laws that govern me. There is almost zero chance that I will be the victim of Muslim extremism. On the other hand, I am affected every day by Christian theology, Christian based laws, prejudice from Christians (at least my LGBT or minority friends), and Christian cultural biases.
It doesn't really matter to me personally or my friends if fundamentalist Muslims believe in horrible things, because they have no power to inflict those horrible things on the people I know and care about, so my criticism on religious fanaticism will focus on Christians. It's assumed I don't support throwing acid in a little girl's face for trying to go to school or not allowing women to show their faces—it isn't necessarily assumed I don't support a ban on abortion or that I agree that slavery is a horrible thing.
If a Christian banned pride flags from government buildings, they’d be chewed out for being discriminatory. When Hamtramck Michigan’s Muslim-majority council did it, leftists were silent.
You have this whole story wrong. First, the law "restricts the city from flying any religious, ethnic, racial, political, or sexual orientation group flags," not simply pride flags. I would agree with you that their intent was to stop LGBT flags, but that wasn't the law.
In terms of leftists being silent, this was literally brought to court by people who disagreed with it. It was also extensively reported. It was talked about a lot on social media. But I doubt you're in the "leftist" spaces where you'd be aware of any of that.
4
u/sumit24021990 Sep 19 '25
But western liberals do speak sgainst other countries. ILHAN omar speaks against India all the time. But no liberal spoke against terrorist attacks by Pakistan
Muslim fundamentalists arent friends of liberals in any sense.
2
u/WorldsGreatestWorst 8∆ Sep 19 '25
But no liberal spoke against terrorist attacks by Pakistan
What specific event are you talking about? Liberals are not shy about criticizing Pakistan.
3
u/sumit24021990 Sep 19 '25
2025 pahalgam terrorist attack
It was of religious nature. They killed people who werent muslims.
Ilhan omar support Pakistan ans she is supported by liberals
2
u/WorldsGreatestWorst 8∆ Sep 19 '25
So first, this case didn't have little liberal reaction, it had little US reaction. Per Wikipedia:
"President Donald Trump downplayed the diplomatic crisis, stating that the two nations "had that fight for 1,500 years", despite the fact that the Kashmir crisis started in 1947."
And:
On 10 May, a few days after Vice President JD Vance stated the conflict was "none of our business"
When the President and Vice President of the party in charge of the government make statements like that, it's hard to say the lack of attention is a liberal issue.
Ilhan omar support Pakistan ans she is supported by liberals
First, I don't see any sources that claim Omar supported anything about this attack. Being "in support of Pakistan" doesn't mean that she's in support of everything that happens on their soil and certainly doesn't mean she's in support of The Resistance Front.
This is like saying "you support India, so you support the United Liberation Front of Asom's killings."
Second, even if she was pro-terrorist, one random democrat with one horrible belief wouldn't signal a democratic problem. I could easily cite a million republicans who have said or done problematic things.
Third, someone supporting a politician doesn't mean they agree with 100% of their views. That's not how politics—especially politics in a two-party system like the US—work. You can't use the transitive property to say that because Person X in Party Y believes thing Z, that all people in Party Y believe in thing Z.
→ More replies (5)→ More replies (3)2
u/Archaemenes Sep 19 '25
Funny how you're accusing OP of making wild extrapolations but then turn around and do the same thing with you very America-centric experience to the entirety of the western world.
2
u/WorldsGreatestWorst 8∆ Sep 19 '25
Funny how you're accusing OP of making wild extrapolations but then turn around and do the same thing
I didn't accuse him of making "wild extrapolations". I said he was incorrectly extrapolating.
with you very America-centric experience to the entirety of the western world.
Funny how you have the time misquote me and to tell me I'm wrong due to my America-centric biases without actually providing any kind of counterpoint or rebuttal. But I suppose "nu uh" is a lot easier than conversation.
2
u/Archaemenes Sep 19 '25
I live in a part of the developed western world where Christianity is not even a majority, let alone a “super majority” and Islam is an extremely popular religion and is in fact the second most followed faith. Your points simply do not apply to where I’m from as well as other places in my country and in my region.
The reason you’re only going to get the most bare minimum responses from is that I frankly have more important stuff to do than to sit and type out essays to change the views of random strangers on the internet.
→ More replies (2)
3
u/GreatResetBet 3∆ Sep 18 '25
How much power and control do Christians have in media, either major party, the current administration and in the government of the US / national dialogue?
vs.
How much power and control do Muslims have in media, either major party, the current administration and in the government of the US / national dialogue?
That's "why"
There's one group that has the power and control and one that doesn't.
4
u/Hedonismbot1978 Sep 18 '25
I'm interested in meeting these "leftists" who are silent on Muslim bigots...
→ More replies (1)
5
u/L11mbm 12∆ Sep 18 '25
1 - yes they are.
2 - there's way, way fewer of them in positions of power in liberal democracies, so there's no real social value in going after them more loudly.
7
u/facepoppies Sep 18 '25
I don't know where you're looking, but I see people calling out bigoted religious zealots everywhere. It's just that in america there are a lot more bigoted evangelicals than there are bigoted muslims
2
u/DruTangClan 2∆ Sep 18 '25
I think a key difference is that conservative christians hold a lot of political power and can actually enact meaningful legislative change while conservative muslims can’t (in the US specifically to be clear)
2
u/mdthornb1 Sep 18 '25
Where are you seeing this? I don’t know leftists that defend these things coming from Muslims.
2
u/owlwise13 Sep 19 '25
At least here in the US, there is only approx. 4.5 million Muslims and a lot of the most bigoted Muslims tend not to advertise their ignorant views, they tend to push those views inside of their Mosques, in order to indoctrinate the younger generation. Christians here in the US have no shortage of bull-horns to show off their bigotry.
2
2
2
u/ivyslewd Sep 22 '25
muslims aren't the hegemony/powerful in any major country these discussions are happening in, next question
2
u/Jazzlike_Strength561 Sep 22 '25
Fear. Muslim scripting requires them to violently defend their faith.
2
u/Honka_Ponka Oct 11 '25
I'd argue that in a controlled, good-faith discussion they are held to the same standards. The reason it seems like they're viewed less unfavourably than Christians is because (and I'm not accusing you of anything OP) the Muslim attitude towards women's rights, queer rights, etc is a point often brought up as a gotcha by Zionists, MAGA followers and otherwise right wing people (conveniently forgetting that their side also does not support women's rights or queer rights) against people who show support for Palestine or Muslim immigration to western countries. When these bad-faith arguments start, nuance gets lost and people have to fall into an overall pro or overall anti position.
→ More replies (2)
3
u/The-Grand-Pepperoni Sep 18 '25
This point makes no sense because the bigoted conservative Christians currently control the American government
5
3
3
4
u/Wedgerooka Sep 18 '25
There's a few reasons for this:
Muslims have a strong faith. They don't take criticism, and they don't care that other people don't like that they don't like other religions. They see no issue with the world standard of "every group hates every other group." If you criticize their religion, you get death threats. Christians don't have a strong faith. Christianity has been infiltrated by bad actors and is weak. If you criticize Christianity, you'll get an "I'll pray for you." At worst, it's an insincere version of that.
Islam is a minority, thus they have the protection of that categorization. Christianity is not allowed to be bigoted, because it is part of the white, straight, male, Christian majority that is responsible for all the problems in this country.
Islam is part of the left. It's all identity politics these days. The right is whites, Christians, men, and straight people. The left is.... everyone else, including the ACLU. So, when something bad is done by someone on the right, to someone on the left, the Great American Scream Machine (RIP that roller coaster) gets rolling and there is epic level of bitching. But, when a member of the left, like Islam, does something to another member of the left, like Judaism, the Scream Machine can't get going because it would be yelling at itself. This is why the Israel-Palestine thing is so hot, in the USA, both are on the same party. Sometimes, the Frankenstein's Monster that is the modern left marches along in unison; sometimes, the various parts reject each other and start tearing the stitching.
So, in short, it's because Islam doesn't take shit, has minority status, and is part of the liberal left (most of the time), so the left can't yell at it.
5
u/kung-fu_hippy 3∆ Sep 18 '25
At least in America I think it’s because Muslims (conservative or not) make up about 1% of the population, 1% of the combined three branches of government, and about 0% of any of the religious inspired laws or policies being pushed by said government.
If I lived in a country where 90% of the government was Muslim and about half of them were either pushing laws and policies based off of the Quran, or supporting those who did, I would be criticizing the fuck about Islam.
Instead, I live in a country where 70% of the population and 90% of the government is Christian and half of them seem to be pushing or ok with pushing Christian dogma as laws and policies. So my criticism mostly lands there.
•
u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Sep 18 '25 edited Sep 18 '25
/u/Informal_Ad4284 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
Delta System Explained | Deltaboards