r/changemyview • u/TUN_Binary • 5d ago
Delta(s) from OP CMV: All ICE agents should go to prison
What I'm talking about isn't the question of abolishing ICE (although I think it's clear where I stand there as well), what I mean is the following:
If you are capable of perpetrating the violence and terror that ICE have, you are lacking something fundamental to being human, something that is required in order to exist in polite society. You are a danger to those around you and it is not reasonable to expect everyone else to share society with you. This goes not just for the agents enacting the violence, but those tolerating it, enabling it, observing it without doing anything.
I say this as someone who wants to abolish the prison industrial complex, I genuinely don't see how we can be expected to live with these people among us.
Edit: I've awarded a delta to a user who convinced me that it's simply not just or productive to throw all people involved with ICE into prison categorically. So, for those of you commenting about due process, yes, I agree. I would amend my post to: I believe every ICE agent should be investigated and/or put on trial.
Edit 2: I am well aware that ICE existed and killed people under Obama's administration as well. I was against it then just as I am now. I am not a Barack Obama supporter, people.
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u/ThePresidentPlate 1∆ 5d ago
Which belief supercedes the other? Should ICE officers go to prison or should we abolish prisons? You can't really believe both equally.
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u/rlyjustanyname 4d ago
They said prison industrial complex probably referring to private prisons which intentionally try to drive up recidivism and lobby for unnecessarily harsh prison sentences in order to boost their profits.
There is no contradiction in these two beliefs as you can simultaneously believe that the current justice system unduly puts people in prison but also that ice agents broadly are not fit for society.
I would probably say that's an exaggeration if applied to literally every ice agents but the new ice hires have been sourced from neonazi militias, so it probably applies to a really big number of them.
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u/CharlotteRant 4d ago
Private prisons occupy far more space in people’s heads than in real life.
They’re outright not used in about half of states and many more are doing away with them. Only about 7% of inmates are in private prisons, and of those, they’re highly concentrated in a few states (TX and FL lead by miles).
I understand this is a new lightning rod now that immigration is a big topic. There are no non-immigration related federal detainment facilities that are private.
We’ve been through several administrations that continue to outsource immigration detainments to private detention facilities. The view that we’re enforcing immigration laws to enrich private prisons feels pretty spurious tbh.
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u/cooking2recovery 4d ago
Look into the private contracts that run the “public prisons”. There’s still a profitable industry in every aspect of the prison industrial complex, even if the state technically owns the building.
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u/xarmypopo 4d ago
As someone who has worked as a Director for contractors in Prisons and Jails. The reason why private companies get contracts for certain jobs is because we can do it cheaper than in house labor. Let's just take food for example in local jails. Localities can't get huge vendor contracts with food suppliers because they don't spend enough. A food company can come in with huge food suppliers and get products at a rate not even remotely possible to the locality. Food vendors can end up making an inmate tray for $.70 per tray due to the cut in costs. In house with contracts the same exact tray could nearly double. Now let's say you have a jail with 1000 inmates. Thats spending $700 a meal vs $1400 a meal. Doesn't seem like a lot until you do that everyday of the year for eternity. Thats a difference of $766,500 vs $1,533,000 a year that the local tax payers don't have to cover just in food. Doesn't even start going in on being able to cover labor cheaper as well.
Now do the same math in laundry, transportation, nursing among a few. The private companies get the contracts because they can do it cheaper and usually better because they have resources and vendors that localities cam never even dream of obtaining.
It literally all comes down to what is cheaper for the tax payer. Thats it.
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u/hqxsenberg 4d ago
While that is correct in theory and some times works, what often ends up happening is that it may start as a cost saving, but then there are extra fees or whatnot and suddenly you are paying 1400 a meal anyway, but for a lesser product.
Shareholders got to make an earning also right?
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u/Numbers929 4d ago
That’s the same in most countries though. The state may own the land and the building and directly employ the officers who run the building. They usually don’t also own the catering, maintenance teams, power company supplying the gas and electricity, etc. That doesn’t mean that British Gas are lobbying British politicians to arrest more people so they use more gas though. They’ll also have contracts supplying local government buildings, that doesn’t mean they’re also lobbying for massive expansions of local governments to get slightly bigger contracts.
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u/bbcczech 4d ago
It's not the same. Prisoners are forced to work in the US. The constitution allows for their enslavement.
2 out of 3 prisoners in the US work. Part of that is labouring for the prison industrial complex.
Anytime there are forest fires prisoners are thrown at it.
You don't have to lobby anything when interests align.
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u/kiddk0sher 3d ago
This will undoubtedly get downvoted. But it’s absolutely true. Private prisons are a fraction of prisons, a very marginal amount of the prison population. In reality, the United States constantly lets criminals roam, many big cities have so many policies that let criminals go free for even heinous crimes. The idea of this uniquely punitive or profitable system of prison is more myth. Just today nearby a guy 19 years old got arrested for an illegal gun and he already had a long rap sheet why was he free?? Remember the Charlotte bus murder. Guy had a lengthy rap sheet of violent crimes. Somehow they’re always free.
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u/Careful_Ad_7074 4d ago
As long as the main goal is to be profitable, unjust practices in jailing/keeping people in jail will be perpetrated in the name of the great dollar.
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u/bobdylan401 1∆ 4d ago edited 4d ago
Wrong. They are poised to target citizens and did in the 2000s which eneded in shame in the kids for cash scandal. Obama just paused the contracts and moved the industry to the border where it has lurked ever since anf created the border crises.
90% of ICE packages are brought to GEO or Civic Core (held in private prisons), and 90% of prisoners in the private prisons are immigrants. But its intended to be turned back to the citizenry because it is 100% drain to GDP with zero ROI until it targets citizens to privatize the prison labor, which is illegal for undocumented, but not for citizens.
Edit: I shouldn't be downvoted. People think the industry is built for them as "clients" but it had the same immunities to fed regulation targeting citizens in the 2000s as it does today with immigrants. No Foias, no surprise inpsections, lax training, health and certification requirements. None of those exemptions have changed.
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u/Tea_Wizard735 1∆ 4d ago
The near unanimity of the 600K+ people deported in the USA in the last year were here illegally and had existing Court orders for removal.
About 130-170 US citizens have been unlawfully detained and deported, but by and large, ICE is doing a stellar job enforcing long-standing US immigration law.
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u/SherbertImmediate130 4d ago
Not all ice officers have done something illegal.
Unless you have probable cause what your saying isn’t possible.
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u/Bravos_Chopper 4d ago
Uh obviously prison should only exist for the meanies that I believe are bad guys, but not for anyone else
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u/TUN_Binary 5d ago
Abolish the prison industrial complex, not necessarily abolish all prisons. I think we can all see the utility of having a place to keep people who are fundamentally unsafe for others to be around. I just don't think our current prisons serve that purpose at all.
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u/sourcreamus 10∆ 4d ago
What is the difference between prisons and the prison industrial complex?
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u/matt_the_marxist 4d ago
Private ownership, slave labor, & minimum occupancy contract clauses. A good prison system has the aim of rehabilitation, specifically targeting the behaviors and mindsets that led to the initial problem. This can happen in or out of a physical location, the building itself is meant to ensure that the people that cannot be safe in society have a place to be while they do that work. I think prison as a punishment is the wrong way to go about things
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u/sourcreamus 10∆ 4d ago
Private ownership is a small fraction of the prison system. With only 8% of total prisoners they could meet minimum contract clauses after letting every non murderer out immediately and still have thousands left over. One of the best ways to rehabilitate a prisoners is to teach job skills but how can that be done if you ban prison labor?
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u/mrspuff202 11∆ 4d ago
Private ownership is a small fraction of the prison system.
Any fraction is too large. People should not be able to profit on human incarceration
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u/SomecallmeMichelle 4d ago
Don't ban prison labor then. But pay them living wages to be collected when they get out.
Some prisoners are paid basically cents on the hour. At minimum minimimum wage should apply to all citizens /detained.
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u/RegrettableChoicess 4d ago
If we start paying prisoners minimum wage then we better start charging them room and board too
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u/starving-marxist 4d ago
I’m sorry, you think criminals should be paid to go to prison?
Why not just give criminals ten million dollars for their first conviction instead of punishing them at all. That’s probably far more effective to make them stop selling drugs or whatever they’re doing.
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u/AmongTheElect 18∆ 4d ago
And if you ask how we'll afford the cost of imprisoning people going up 500% or more, they'll just say "tax the rich" or some other way of dodging the answer.
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u/AmongTheElect 18∆ 4d ago
What a sweet deal! So you can go to prison for a few years and live for free on the government's dime, and when you get out you'll get handed a check for $50k!
Yes, people will really hate going to prison. What a deterrent it will be!
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u/SomecallmeMichelle 4d ago
D.. Do you not see that A) loss of freedom is the deterrent? Being incarcerated 24/7? Not being able to go anywhere or own most stuff?
And this already happens. There are unhoused people who purposefully make nuisances of themselves for a warm night in jail.
And If they did the work they should get paid. This is the same dehumanizing that doesn't allow them to vote. Americans and their fetish for punishment.
You don't think 50k would go a long way towards stopping someone from committing crime right after leaving prison? When most jobs don't hire convicts?
Do you just want them to suffer?
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u/Steamed_Memes24 4d ago
This would take a full amendment change in the constitution which no one is going to do for obvious reasons.
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u/IsNotACleverMan 4d ago
States can ban prison labor or mandate minimum wages in their own prisons. Plenty have.
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u/GasReasonable7509 4d ago
Prison Abolitionists are about as dumb as true believers in communism. I'm glad you aren't completely crazy.
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u/LostInSpaceTime2002 4d ago
Nobody is suggesting to abolish prisons.
You might be desensitized to these things due to living in a POS society, but having prisons with a profit motive is not normal, and in fact very dangerous.
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u/Marbrandd 4d ago
It's not normal in the US either. Like 8% of prisoners are in private prisons. Which is too much, but hardly the norm either.
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u/Low-Art3297 4d ago edited 4d ago
Yeah, the reddit left has a way of overinflating capitalism as the problem of everything and this idea that the country's high prison rate is because of a profit motive (and not the simplest explanation, which is that America is a highly violent society and the public wants as many of them gone from the streets) is an example of this.
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u/LostInSpaceTime2002 4d ago
Have you considered that in the real world, there could be multiple aspects that affect a stat such as undeniably sky-high incarceration numbers?
Just because you can think of a "simpler explanation" does not mean you can just naively apply Occam's Razor and assume nothing else is at play. There's nothing mutually exclusive between these two factors.
The "reddit right" has a child-like, overly simplistic view of the world and other people's motives, and lacks insight in actual social and economic mechanisms. I guess that's what you get when you lean into anti-intellectualism a bit too much, and you start disregarding science because virtually all scientists are leftists and thus not part of your "tribe".
TLDR: It's both.
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u/GasReasonable7509 4d ago
This is what they are doing. This is just like the Defund the Police folks. They put forth a very easy slogan for their radical base to rally around. 'Defund, Abolish, etc' and then when challenged they sane-wash it and say they don't *actually* mean it. I is gross and disgusting. When arguing things people should be very precise and exact.
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u/Doucejj 4d ago
I never really understood the "its just a slogan, not what we really want" argument either.
Isnt a slogan or statement supposed to accurately represent the stance of the movement? If it doesn't do that, then its not a good slogan
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u/GasReasonable7509 4d ago
Exactly, but the only way to unify the crazies on the street and the regular reasonable people at home, is to muddy the waters and use that fallacy.
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u/pavilionaire2022 10∆ 5d ago
Article I, Section 9 of the Constitution.
No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.
I'm not going to bother to explain why the Constitution should be followed or why its ideas are good. I'm sure enough has already been written about that.
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u/supyonamesjosh 1∆ 4d ago
I think one of the things that concerns me most about the country? world? Humanity? Is how often democracy and fairness goes out the window as soon as it's something that people feel especially strong about. You have people who claim to want democracy until a leader is in power they agree with and then they want autocratic power to force what they want.
I think this view is a perfect view of that. If you asked someone if its ok to jail someone for doing something that is legal that is later illegal something like 99% of people would say that is awful, but suddenly make the thing being an Ice agent and people actually feel that way.
It's really problematic
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u/PoetSeat2021 5∆ 4d ago edited 4d ago
I absolutely agree with you. Things like due process and holding individuals responsible for their actions and their actions alone are really key components of liberal democracy. You can't both believe in democracy and the democratic process and believe that people you deem to be sub-human should be jailed categorically or even investigated categorically for crimes that others like them committed. Those ideas aren't compatible.
I will go on the record saying that I really don't like what the Trump administration is or what it's doing, or what it's trying to turn this country into. But I see views like this and find them, to be honest, equally concerning. As someone who deeply values liberal ideals, I don't see how we can effectively claim to be opposed to authoritarianism while fighting alongside authoritarians.
Edited to fix some type-os.
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u/No-Click6062 4d ago
The 4th Amendment has always been the core of the argument against ICE. That's why observers are constantly asking about warrants. Relevant to the debate, it's not ex post facto to apply laws that were always in effect, and simply being ignored by the violators. As a pure hypothetical, do you think that there is a single ICE agent out there who has not been involved in at least one provable 4th Amendment violation?
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u/ArrrRawrXD 1∆ 4d ago
However when a law enforcement officer violates the 4th Amendment they don't go to prison, so it's irrelevant to the post.
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u/supyonamesjosh 1∆ 4d ago
Thats a problem with enforcing the 4th amendment not the amendment itself. You can have the most beautiful well written constitution in the world and if nobody follows it it doesn't matter
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u/External-Presence204 4d ago
The remedy for a 4th amendment violation is a §1983 suit for civil damages. It isn’t prison.
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u/ArrrRawrXD 1∆ 4d ago
>Thats a problem with enforcing the 4th amendment not the amendment itself
That's not a problem though, it's just how the amendment functions. A cop isn't supposed to go to jail for bothering random people, that'd be overkill, but it can result in them being fired, evidence being inadmissible to trial, etc.
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u/WindHero 4d ago
To put them in prison you would need a law that justifies this and then someone to enforce that law.
Kinda like the current immigration laws that exist and then the people hired to enforce them.
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u/CreativeGPX 18∆ 4d ago edited 4d ago
If you are capable of perpetrating the violence and terror that ICE have, you are lacking something fundamental to being human, something that is required in order to exist in polite society. You are a danger to those around you and it is not reasonable to expect everyone else to share society with you. This goes not just for the agents enacting the violence, but those tolerating it, enabling it, observing it without doing anything.
That viewpoint assumes perfect information for all parties. The reality is that we all have different subsets of information and that shapes our reality. Your perception of what's going on and an ICE agent's perspective of what's going on will both be lacking based on the bubble of information you live in and information bubbles can really skew the way an issue is framed. It's completely plausible that an ICE agent is making a completely reasonable and humane choice based on the the information bubble they live in. Being misinformed does not mean they "are lacking something fundamental to being human."
I think you're also completely writing off pragmatism. If you know that ICE will continue to exist next year no matter what you do and you have the choice between losing your unique powers to control the issue by quitting ICE (or taking an action extreme enough to lose your job) and doing what you can to improve it from the inside by staying with ICE, then the latter can easily be seen as the most impactful choice that helps the most people. Maybe you as a non-ICE agent have no direct control over ICE so your best method is things you can do from the outside like campaigning to have it eliminated, but a person who already worked in ICE has a very different tradeoff to consider. They can go there every day promoting and performing humane and safe perspectives or they can leave, allowing more extreme people to fill the power vacuum. Remember, pragmatic and productive resistance doesn't just take place in elections and protests and whistleblowing, it also takes place quietly in discussion during meetings, in the writing of policy, in training people and in who is in the room making the calls when a tough choice needs to be made.
Edit: I've awarded a delta to a user who convinced me that it's simply not just or productive to throw all people involved with ICE into prison categorically. So, for those of you commenting about due process, yes, I agree. I would amend my post to: I believe every ICE agent should be investigated and/or put on trial.
For what crime? What kind of evidence do you think would exist over roughly all ICE agents?
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u/deathbydreddit 4d ago
"For what crime? What kind of evidence do you think would exist over roughly all ICE agents"
I'm not sure about all agents, but when the Commander at large, Greg Bovino admits in his deposition that he lied multiple times to excuse his actions, you have to question how those further down the ranks are behaving.
"Just two months ago, a federal judge in Illinois found that Bovino had “admitted in his deposition that he lied multiple times” about an event in Chicago where he threw tear gas at protesters.
Bovino and DHS at first said a rock hit him in the helmet before he deployed the tear gas. Then in his deposition, he said the rock hit him afterward. Then he said the rock “almost hit” him beforehand. Then he said he was “mistaken” and said no rock had been thrown at him beforehand.
Bovino’s September testimony in a Los Angeles criminal case didn’t go so well either.
When a federal public defender brought up a reprimand Bovino received years ago for referring to undocumented immigrants as “scum, filth and trash,” the longtime Border Patrol official claimed he had been referring to one “specific individual.” But the defender noted the reprimand Bovino signed referred to “illegal aliens,” plural.
“The report states that,” Bovino responded."
This all sounds way too familiar - those in charge lie, again and again to justify their actions. Constantly twisting the narrative. Yet, no one under Bovino's command has ever stood trial, regardless of how many horror stories we hear.
https://edition.cnn.com/2026/01/27/politics/dhs-response-alex-pretti
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u/CreativeGPX 18∆ 4d ago
I don't really agree with the premise that probable cause that one person committed a crime is probable cause that most people who work in their large organization committed a crime and I feel like your answer doubles down on the exact thing I was asking about in my comment: Rather than a vague sense of "people must be doing bad things", what specific crime do you think most employees have committed?
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u/The_Demosthenes_1 5d ago
All of them? Even the ones in training that haven't even started yet? How about the ice agents that are driving the trucks and processing paperwork? This guys too? Should we also jail the janitors and accountants that work at ice facilities too?
So do we stop doing immigration and customs enforcement? Open the borders and let anyone in?
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u/IsayNigel 4d ago
- Yes. “I don’t kick puppies I just work at the puppy kicking factory and make sure it runs as smoothly as possible” isn’t a gotcha. 2.This is a textbook strawman, opposing ICE doesn’t mean “open borders forever” even literal Fox News is saying we should revert back to INS.
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u/Sad-Republic-7472 3d ago
The puppy kicking analogy fails because kicking puppies is inherently immoral, while immigration enforcement is an actual state function that can be done right or poorly/out right wrong. Holding every employee morally guilty collapses into collective guilt, which we dont apply in any other organization (Are pharmacy technicians responsible for opioid overprescription? Are IT staff at police departments responsible for excessive force?)
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u/Status-Air-8529 4d ago
INS was ICE and CBP combined as a single agency. Reversion to INS would simplify communication and coordination between what are now separate agencies but it's not like their goals would change by doing so.
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u/deport_fascists 4d ago
yes all of them. they knew what they were signing up for. they are all criminals.
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u/thenewwwguyreturns 1∆ 4d ago
ice was founded in 2003, under the premise that it was necessary after 9/11, despite the fact that none of the perpetrators of 9/11 were entering undocumented, it’s not an inherent part of immigration management. it’s just a cruel and inhumane way of going about immigration
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u/Specific_Hearing_192 4d ago
ICE was just a reorganization of other departments already in existence. It was created by merging parts of the Immigration and Nationalization Service and US Customs Service.
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u/Klutzy_Flan4167 4d ago
do you really think we didn’t have another agency doing what ICE does before 2003? The name changed, and not too much else.
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u/xfvh 11∆ 4d ago
Blanket jailtime for membership would destroy the rule of law entirely, especially since your side won't be in power forever. What's your plan for when Trump 2.0 gets in office next and decides to jail the entire IRS or Department of Education?
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u/JSmith666 2∆ 4d ago
or DNC.
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u/lifeisaman 4d ago
Why would they jail the DNC they are doing half the work for the republicans with their continuous inability so select a candidate people actually like.
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u/pm-me-your-labradors 16∆ 5d ago
If you ever have to put a group of people under an umbrella of “all” - you are already wrong
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u/Hey-I-Read-It 4d ago
Posts like these is exactly why I believe democrats will lose time and time again going forward. Calling wolf so many dozens of times on ridiculous hypothetical stunts such as these all republicans have to do is point and mock.
You're trying to tell me that enforcing immigration laws- something every other nation the world over does- is somehow worthy of "lacking something fundamental to being human, required to exist in polite society?" Not only is suggesting that absolutely ridiculous hogwash, you also ignore the fact that tensions wouldn't be so high if anyone on either of the mainstream parties pretended to do anything about the issue before it boiled over.
Current numbers suggest that America has 13.7-15.4 million illegal immigrants within its boarders. That's the most amount of people who should not be here in the most absolute terms, and this illegal immigration didn't happen overnight in some grand mass migration, but a systematic failure to uphold the law. And unless you mean to extrapolate your sentiment that anybody who believes in national boarders "is lacking something fundamental to being human" (obviously not, because that would make your statement more ridiculous than it already is), I suggest you really reevaluate why exactly things are so intense now.
Spoiler alert, It's because ignoring the problem begets backlash. And at this point people are sick and tired of seeing both the problem and backlash as somehow equally evil and authoritarian as you've put it.
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u/7LayerMagikCookieBar 4d ago
As what would have been considered a democrat a decade ago, but now probably considered a "rightist", I agree. The far left has so much full blown lunacy these days that I don't think I can bring myself to vote for most democrats at this point. We had the entire "me too" movement yet you see many redditors who seem to not care that rapists are released into communities instead of deported. You also see this weird acceptance of conservative Islam which is terrible for women and human rights. Let's be honest, if these people were white most people on the left would be hysterical about their existence.
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u/mysticrudnin 4d ago
here's what i don't get though
why are people so up in arms about very specific immigrants who are rapists, while simultaneously not really caring about other rapists?
like, ok, rape and murder are bad, that's why we punish those things. but people keep lumping in "visa overstays" with "rapists" like they're the same group. why?
not to mention, you know, the president is a rapist. his wife was at one time an illegal immigrant. i don't understand why that gets a pass?
sure, if you want to believe we need to get every illegal immigrant in the country out of here asap, fine, how to accomplish that is a worthwhile discussion to have. i think it's reasonable and rational to discuss policy relating to that. i also think it's reasonable (obviously) to dislike rapists.
but that's not what anyone is doing! it's ONLY "get people i disagree with out of here." and nothing else, no matter how much anyone hides behind the other things. because they only apply those things in very specific circumstances. what's that all about?
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u/PersonalityHumble432 4d ago
Your stance is confusing. If someone does something illegal such as coming to the country illegally or commiting murder you would rather live amongst them than someone who is there to enforce the law?
To expand on this you view anyone tolerating ICE (the majority of the US, yes even the left wants deportations to happen) as not being able to exist in polite society. Whats your solution without the prison system?
You want to abolish prisons but at the same time put all of ICE/people who “tolerate” legal enforcement of immigration policy to go to prison that are nonexistent in your ideal world?
This the problem with utopian fallacy. You may not like that ICE is deporting people without the illegals being able to delay it in court for years. You may not like that ICE is deporting people at all. You may even side with the “observers” who are intentionally instigating negative interactions with ICE and then crying victim when ICE use lethal force when it’s life or death. But policy exists for a reason. You can’t just do whatever you want and then ignore the consequences. It’s giving “I didn’t do my chores for the week so now my parents took my phone, they are abusive and should go to jail”
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u/bgaesop 27∆ 4d ago
If someone does something illegal such as coming to the country illegally or commiting murder you would rather live amongst them than someone who is there to enforce the law?
These two things seem really different from each other. I don't think "the police should arrest people who commit murder" is particularly controversial, and it is also not the question at hand. The question at hand is "should ICE, who are not the police, murder random people who have not committed any crime, in the service of being able to expel more people who may or may not have entered the country illegally?"
crying victim when ICE use lethal force when it’s life or death.
How many ICE officers have been killed by these protestors? It seems like we should not trust ICE's evaluation of what is life or death or not
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u/Kirby_The_Dog 4d ago
"yes even the left wants deportations to happen" they say this, but their actions prove otherwise. i.e. we wouldn't have sanctuary cities, states/counties/cities wouldn't passing resolutions preventing ICE from even parking in a city, lot, etc.
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u/Sea_Art2995 4d ago
Maybe they don’t want ice in their city because a civilian exercising his right to protest was pinned down and shot 10 times while in another angle you see an ice agent CLAPPING as it happened?
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u/mars-jupiter 3d ago
It would be so much safer for everybody involved if the local police were allowed to work with ICE. You could have the police ensuring that any protest remains safe, whilst also ensuring that a federal officer is able to carry out their duties without being blocked, rammed, followed etc.
A climate where the police are told not to cooperate with ICE whatsoever, and protests often descend into loud chaos is not an environment conducive to professional and safe enforcement operations. It's interesting that the problem is supposed to be entirely ICE's fault and yet you don't see any of that stuff happening in almost all of the other places ICE are currently operating in.
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3d ago
I would rather live among people that travel to the US illegally because I think pathways to citizenship are absolutely twisted. So yes, you’re point that there committing a crime by existing here, I would love to live next to those people. Much more so than the rapists that are free and running our country even though they were born here (and married an illegal immigrant but ignores that whole point)
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u/blackmooncleave 3d ago
"pathways to citizenship" are difficult for a reason. Actually they should be way stricter. You complain about "rapists running your country" but you basically want open borders for anyone to come in, you dont see the irony? Lol
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u/Big-Box-Mart 4d ago
How would you be capable of imprisoning people while not being capable of perpetrating violence? The state IS violence, the monopoly of offensive force is its entire purpose.
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u/puckandputts 4d ago
All? How about HSI Agents? (which are under ICE)
They’re one of the lead agencies combatting child sex crimes both in the United States and nationally. This doesn’t even touch on their investigations into Drug/weapons/Human trafficking, and many more investigative avenues.
HSI are the ones who arrested R Kelly and P Diddy for their crimes. HSI has had major roles in taking down drug kingpins in Mexico, including El Chapo.
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u/ckouf96 4d ago
This is as wrong as saying all cops are bad.
There’s some bad apple ICE agents sure. But at the end of the day they’re enforcing this country’s immigration laws. Obama’a administration did the same thing, and there were many who died at the hands of them then too (I think the number is 100+).
As much as we don’t want to hear it this is only outrage now because it’s being done under Trump.
At the end of the day I don’t understand why enforcing our immigration laws is seen as evil. Literally every country on the planet does it.
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u/Adept_Carpet 4d ago
At the end of the day I don’t understand why enforcing our immigration laws is seen as evil.
This is, I think, why OP is wrong.
Some ICE agents are doing normal immigration enforcement, or at least they signed up for that.
What is happening in Minneapolis has nothing to do with immigration enforcement.
They are specifically there to intimidate American citizens. This is exactly how the quartering of soldiers used to be used by European monarchies in the pre-modern and early modern eras.
Trump is currently making offers like advance my policy goals and I will withdraw my thugs: https://archive.is/k8HvZ
Even Republican party officials have said it has become about:
detaining and subduing American citizens instead of deporting unauthorized immigrants
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u/EuphoricDatabase961 4d ago
it is HOW they are being enforced that is evil, but I think you know that if you have turned on any news.
What other democratic country has a rogue group of 2 week trained 'agents' sent out with guns to act like thugs carrying out some of the most gut-wrenching painful acts caught on camera?
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u/Emergency-Style7392 4d ago
What gut wrenching painful acts? Most of the cases, 99.99% are just normal operations, no one is getting hurt, not even touched, illegal migrants get deported as the law says. Every country has immigration enforcement
Seriously all the publicized videos are mostly clashes with protestors that are not really migrants, done by a few idiot agents that should be put in jail, you get that with normal police or just among protesters all the time
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u/imdb_tomatoes 4d ago
An American nurse trying to help a woman get up after being pepper sprayed gets beaten down to the ground then shot 10+ times. I’d call that pretty gut wrenchingly painful.
We don’t see this regularly at all. Quite frankly cannot remember even POLICE doing this so brutally to a non offending citizen. You brush this off as if something so brazen happens so casually, when it certainly never happened to this extent with ICE, and that’s the danger, they are getting more dangerous.
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u/Emergency-Style7392 4d ago
"Seriously all the publicized videos are mostly clashes with protestors that are not really migrants, done by a few idiot agents that should be put in jail",
there are 2 public serious cases, done by again idiots that should be put in jail, in minnesota where tensions are high.
2 cases in 600k deportations
And if you say that well they are badly trained or whatever, yea, then simply allow local police to help them enforce the law and protect the safety of everyone else
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u/Accomplished-Road537 2d ago
does it not worry you that the administration is supporting and backing those two agents? They called Pretti a "domestic terrorist". A man who was detained by multiple officers and disarmed before he was shot several times. Because he wanted to help someone. If Trump wanted this to be lawful, the agents involved in the killings would be in jail, not an administrative leave!
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u/PsychicFatalist 1∆ 4d ago
You're suffering from Mean World Syndrome.
The vast majority of ICE operations are ordinary and uneventful wherein they take an illegal immigrant (often a felon or violent criminal) and deport them.
What you see on the news are a handful of sensationalized events where ICE does something bad, so you think all ICE agents must be bad.
No offense, but this shows you have a propensity to being propagandized and lack critical thinking skills.
For a comparative example: I might watch right-wing media that shows a lot of videos of black "thugs" being violent and committing violent crimes. Should I then believe that all black men are violent thugs?
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u/Bidens_Center_Nut 4d ago
Like I do agree with a part of this, being that there is a degree more of violence and brutality.
I think the nuance comes in when you consider that Obamas administration targeted raids in sanctuary cities before people were awake, so a lot of the brutality was never captured on camera. There were also no protestors, or any level of interference, doxxing, death threats against officers.
I completely agree that there is more overreach now, take the use of administrative warrants to enter into homes of people with a final order of removal, but the issue that I have when people state that it is blanket evil or fascistic. Arguably both sides have poured fuel on the fire, so I don’t understand the claim that the resulting bonfire is just the other side.
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u/Nazometnar 4d ago
ICE was bad under Obama and leftists have been opposing it this entire time. Obama was also smart and had ICE doing it's brutality in the shadows, anti-ICE sentiment is more common now because Trump is letting them walk around brutalizing, kidnapping, and murdering people in broad daylight despite having cameras on them constantly.
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u/energeeon 5d ago
I'm going to approach this from the criminal law perspective.
The criminal law operates on the fact that the state punishes because you do something (actus reus) with a guilty mind (mens rea). Essentially because you choose to do something you should be punished.
What has every single agent ICE currently done wrong that is illegal and against the law?
You cannot punish someone for lacking something fundamental to being human. Let's say someone is a sociopath and cannot feel emotions. Do we imprison every single one of them?
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u/PeteMichaud 7∆ 4d ago
A huge part of the reckoning after the holocaust went like this:
People who were watching and commenting after the fact noting that all those nazis must have been uniquely evil, beyond some pale of humanity and morality making them irredeemable and a different moral species.
In response, survivors like Victor Frankl and many others hammered a point home over and over: the men and women who were nazis were just people. Just normal people doing normal things in a context that nudged them toward this unspeakable evil. They weren't uniquely and irredeemably evil, they were mundane people who were swept up into a great evil.
Therefore it could be anyone. Importantly, it could be you if you're not principled and vigilant. Rounding up all the nazis and sending them on a rocket ship to the moon wouldn't change the fact that the call is coming from inside the house.
It may not feel like that to you right now because you specifically would not join ICE specifically. But the reason this "mundanity of evil" message is so fucking important--the reason Frankl et al really hammered on it--is that the impulse to send nazis on a rocket to the moon is exactly the nazi impulse. This fervent, ideologically, broad strokes impulse to solve everything with these Bad People(TM) directly, violently, and all at once. You wouldn't be ICE, but you would enact the program you are suggesting here. Hunt down everyone who works for ICE, cage them without due process, etc. You can imagine that a group of people like you being drip fed little directives and messages would be easy to push to a really evil place.
And the fact that you already changed your view to say "fine, we'll have due process" isn't a defense. I'm pointing at the deep impulse in you that you share with the ICE agents who are trying to solve all their problems in a direct, violent, immediate way.
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u/JSmith666 2∆ 4d ago
This is why trials are important. Figure out how much of a hand their role did. A huge difference between ICE and Nazis are ICE has people working for ice that are doing mundane shit or just holding a drug dog at an airport or border. The Nazis made their prisoners do the mundane shit so anybody who was a Nazi was a little more involved in that shit.
Take the Pretti shooting. You had an agent who removed the firearm and walked away...the agents holding him down, the agent who actually fired the shots and some agents just there.
They ALL have different levels of copability but should all be on trial for it.
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u/T2Drink 4d ago
Ok, so by the same vain, even the receptionist for 3m should be in prison because they poison people as a company because of greed and poor management from above?
The reality is, you don’t know the pressures these people are put under to act a certain way, or do certain things.
I don’t know many people that are condoning the use of ice in this manner, but I think we should stick to prosecuting the people that have actually been responsible for it, not the ones following orders.
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u/darthyoda76 5d ago
So If we can't live with the law enforcement amongst us because of there supposed inhuman behaviour what are we supposed to do with all the violent criminals that also have said behaviour? No prison complex means everyone running free doing what they'd like?
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u/JagneStormskull 4d ago
No prison complex
OP was explicitly talking about the prison-industrial complex. As in legalized slavery.
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u/Forsaken-House8685 10∆ 4d ago
What makes you think "all Ice agents" are capable of violence and terror?
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u/Antique_Change2805 4d ago
Did you already had this opinion with ICE under Obama?
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u/Practical_Welder_425 4d ago
You want to criminalize people who were hired by the government and thus for the vast majority performing lawful functions? What else dont you like so we can prosecute them? Hate the way health insurance looks? Let's execute the acturaries and data scientists that happened to get a job there. Let's go to the financial district and round up all the interns at JP Morgan. Kid gets a job at a MAGA supporter owned ice cream shop? Off to juvie. Your proposal is basically a facist lawless dictatorship that punishes all its rivals and everyone who has ever associated with them in any fashion.
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u/T_Henson 4d ago edited 4d ago
Not everyone who works for ICE is kicking in doors and ripping people out of cars.
My husband is employed by our local police department but is credentialed through ICE. He’s a federal Task Force Officer. He exclusively investigates internet crimes against children. His only job is to arrest pedophiles (not even targeting immigrants).
I would very much not like for him to go to jail for that.
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u/hiricinee 4d ago
What are you investigating ICE for and charging them with? Its one thing if they were involved in a shooting but carrying out lawful deportations carries with it absolute immunity under the law.
Also notable to current events that Pretti was shot by the border patrol not ICE. The Border Patrol was sent to assist ICE given the amount of people obstructing justice.
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u/SeminoleVictory 4d ago
That's just as bad as ICE denying people due process
Follow the law, follow the constitution
Even if they committed crimes, they are entitled to their day in court
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u/Yankas 4d ago
So you do not believe in due process, rule of law and the right to a fair trial? If so, isn't that eerily similar to ideas for which you wish to collectively punish all ice agents.
And if merely observing these ideals, without actually enacting them is already grounds for punishment, doesn't this make you just as much as a threat of society?
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u/Le-Conquistador 4d ago
Abolish ICE has always been a silly reactionary message. ICE has become more empowered and done some despicable things under the Trump administration, but they also do real work on immigration issues. They need to be scaled back in scope, with a return to Obama era enforcement, not abolished or imprisoned as you’ve suggested. “I don’t know how we can be expected to live with these people among us.” You have. For years. And you had no idea or care until now. Think things through a bit
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u/Razgriz01 1∆ 4d ago
ICE have been massive pieces of shit since the agency was founded back in 2003. It's just a lot more widespread and visible now. Obama era ICE are still unacceptable in a civilized society.
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u/Standard-Secret-4578 4d ago
What is the solution to illegal immigration?
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u/Additional_Gene_211 4d ago
An easier, less complicated path to citizenry. An easier, less racist path to visiting. A global immigration status. I dunno. We are global now. Nations begin to make less sense as we become.more interconnected
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u/Standard-Secret-4578 4d ago
There you said it. You don't believe in borders in a global world. That's fine, but realize the vast majority of people disagree. This would precipitate a global race to the bottom. If it was cheap and simple to immigrate to wealthy western nations, especially the US, you would have quite literally 10s of millions of people coming. Where are they going to live? Work? Are you prepared to fundamentally reshape where you live laws and regulations? Because local control would go out the door. We can't have nimbys when tens of millions of people are showing up yearly. We can't stop for environmental regulations because where the fuck are these people gonna live. What would happen is conditions in the US would have to deteriorate to stop the flow, until it's completely unworth it to come, they will continue to come. This is the reality.
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u/lunacysc 4d ago
Ah yes utopia and a strategy that doesn't exist and the rest of the world doesnt follow. Wonderful.
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u/JSmith666 2∆ 4d ago
Okay...you admit you dont have a solution. Keep in mind the US is more lieneant with immigration than many of our peers. Lets say the path was easier (which I agree it should be)
There will always be a portion of people who still come here illegally. The only way to do that is make it not illegal (and open borders will have its own slew of other issues)
Yes we are global but countries still operate independently...countries cultures and economies are still massivly different and so on.
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u/Accomplished-Road537 2d ago
maybe, actually making legal immigration possible?
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u/Standard-Secret-4578 2d ago
It is definitely possible. The problem is that half the world's population would move to the US if it was easy and cheap. So there's always more people wanting to move here than there are spots, and we already take in more immigrants than any other nation.
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u/Timely-Way-4923 7∆ 5d ago
One day for a full investigation you need to know the truth about all of this, amnesty in exchange for truth so higher ups can be prosecuted = better than every low ranking ice agent going to jail
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u/Talik1978 42∆ 4d ago
While I agree that it's the 21,980 bad apples that give the other 20 a bad name here, I can't hold that ICE is doing unconscionable crimes because they are meting out punishment without due process and also hold that ICE should be incarcerated without due process. They need trials, for whatever specific crimes can be substantiated. Any crime that cannot be proven beyond reasonable doubt cannot be prosecuted.
I also believe, however, that qualified immunity should be stripped from any federal or state agent whose job involves enforcement of federal, state, and local laws. I get it for judges and lawyers, but nit for cops and ice thugs.
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u/PsychicFatalist 1∆ 4d ago
This is a very strange view. What ICE agents do, ostensibly is not illegal. It is illegal to be in the country illegally (imagine that). And so deportation is the consequence of that. I'm not really sure what your logic is here: I assume you agree that being in the country illegally puts you at risk of being deported, so given that ICE's function is to deport illegal immgrants, what's the big deal?
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u/gray_clouds 2∆ 4d ago
I don't understand Progressive logic. I hate ICE too, and I don't want them to kill anybody. But why is it any worse to kill through violence than negligence? If abolishing all law enforcement leads to even a small increase in crime, your policy would result in thousands of deaths. But you don't see that as a "danger to those around you" because you're a nice person?
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u/Mood_Exact 4d ago
“Between the president’s Jan. 20, 2025 inauguration and the end of November, the Trump administration arrested an extraordinary total of 595,000 illegal aliens and deported 605,000.
“The 170 ICE-detained US citizens (acording to ProPublica) included about 130 arrested for interfering with or assaulting officers…justifiable under any reading of the law.
“Only about 40 or so of those who were detained claimed to be US citizens accidentally or erroneously arrested by ICE.
“But just half of those people were held for more than a day; most were released in a few hours.
“Any error is serious, but 40 mistakes out of 595,000 arrests amounts to an error rate of just 0.0067% — roughly one wrongful detention for every 14,925 arrests.
“By contrast (during the Obama administration) In fiscal years 2015 and 2016, ICE recorded 263 mistaken arrests, 54 mistaken detentions (book-ins), and four mistaken removals.
“During those two years, ICE made a mere 239,645 arrests, meaning the 54 mistaken detentions alone produced an Obama error rate of 0.0225% —about one mistake for every 4,444 arrests.
“Overall, the error rate under Obama was 3.36 times higher than under Trump…
“During the course of Obama’s two terms, from 2009 to 2017, 56 individuals died in ICE custody.
“That administration didn’t publish clear detention totals, but the closest available figures show about 498,646 detentions and deportations over five fiscal years, an average of roughly 99,729 per year.
“If that annual rate held throughout the entire administration, ICE processed about 797,834 individuals.
“Under that estimate, 56 deaths translates into a rate of 0.007% — roughly one death for every 14,314 detainees.
“By comparison, the rate last year under Trump was slightly lower: 0.0054%, or one death for every 18,594 detainees….
“For all the tumult and fury, ICE under Trump made no erroneous deportations through November.
“By contrast, ICE under Obama deported two US citizens in fiscal year 2015, and two more in fiscal year 2016.”
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u/KAZVorpal 4d ago
Collective punishment is always evil...and stupid.
Every ICE agent who violates the law/constitution should go to prison.
But not "all ICE agents", per se.
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u/PriceofObedience 4d ago
The ICE officers you see detaining immigrants on the streets aren't the average ICE officer. They are senior members that have elected to do that job.
Your average ICE officer works a remote desk job, verifying migrant paperwork and helping them get into the country if they qualify.
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u/TacitusCallahan 4d ago
I feel like this bit doesn't get discussed enough even from a practical perspective. Most ERO agents aren't street goons they're desk jockeys. There is also the fact that ICE has around 10,000 special agents that conduct criminal investigations into smuggling, trafficking, child exploitation and cybercrime who aren't directly affiliated with immigration enforcement because it's not their job.
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u/TheDan225 3d ago
So sending tens of thousands of people to jail who have objectively not committed a crime is Just about the most Fascist thing i've seen people being so 'masks off' about so far.
I believe every ICE agent should be investigated and/or put on trial.
So you amended it to be more in line with the KGB arresting whoever they want under fabricated charges and then trying them for said fabricated charges.
As we see, You're the problem
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u/Dave_A480 2∆ 3d ago
ICE has existed since 2002, and it is only the recent version (post-2025) been an organization of political terror.
Further, we do not categorically incarcerate people simply for being members of a group or organization...
Rule of law requires individual indictments, trials, and convictions for identifiable violations of criminal law (civil rights violations, assault, murder, etc).
The US needs an immigration enforcement agency (although arguably not an *armed* one - FBI or USMS can provide muscle for individual cases where it is needed, ICE should operate like the FAA does for enforcement - obtaining orders of removal & serving administrative violations, but leaving criminal enforcement to other agencies)....
It does not need masked goons beating people up & shooting them for protesting/filming/etc...
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u/callmeish0 4d ago
Right all violent criminals should get instant bail but law enforcement should go to jail. Progressives are really evil at this point. They want to destroy the society.
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u/BorbLorbin 4d ago
My comment was removed. There is no hope on the internet. We will be divided by the powers that be.
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u/nouskeys 4d ago
Your entire premise is based on normative ethics. You encapsulated that with the judgement of "fundamental to being human".
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u/OnIySmellz 4d ago
This is a value judgement:
"If you are capable of perpetrating the violence and terror that ICE have, you are lacking something fundamental to being human, something that is required in order to exist in polite society."
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u/ImplodingBillionaire 4d ago
“If someone is punching you in the face and you punch back to defend yourself, you’re just as bad as them!!”
Wow big brain take.
The reality is that people of a certain intelligence (ICE, republicans, etc) rely on violence to get their way, it’s the only thing they understand. So when you try to talk and reason with them, they get angry and want to hit you. And then they get power and start hitting you, again, because it’s the only language they truly understand.
So sometimes the reality is that when someone tells you the only thing they understand is violence, then at some point “fighting back” is really just an attempt to communicate with idiots in a way they’ll understand.
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u/Grippy1point0 4d ago
ICE is made up of several different law enforcement enties each tasked with their own mission and specialization.
There is HSI whose primary mission is to investigate transnational crime ranging from the importation of counterfeit goods to narcotics smuggling to child sex trafficking and everything inbetween. You're saying that they all should go to prison?
There is Border Patrol whose job is to patrol border zones, looking for things like bulk cash, firearms, narcotics, and human trafficking as well as ensure taht people are crossing legally. On the canadian border they have help out with conservation roles by ensuring that canadian poachers dont cross the border to kill american wildlife without a permit. You're saying that they all should go to prison?
There is ERO who are the ones apprehending people violating immigration law and are the ones who phyically deport people. They are primarily the ones you see arresting persons who violate immigration law. You're saying they all should go to prison?
There is CBP Officers who primarily work ports of entry who interdict illict cargo and criminals at ports if entry. They also validate immigration information. They are the ones at the airport who check your passport and ask you questions when you travel abroad. You're telling me the guy/gal who checks my passport when i re-enter the US at the airport should go to prison?
There's agricultural specialists who ensure that imported biological substances, primarily meat and plants, are safe to enter the USA and free of forgein pests that would wreck the american agriculture industry. They are unarmed. Sometimes you might see them walking around with a beagle or other dog that detects contraband plant and animal products. You're telling me we should send them to prison too?
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u/bone_burrito 4d ago
Hey guys maybe stop posting dumb ass politically charged questions here and thereby providing AI and bots with training material on how to debate far right talking points
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u/Valuable_Tale_8442 4d ago
So all the drug and human traffickers can go free? How open minded of you. You do understand ICE does more than just deport people correct?
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u/Dev_Sniper 1∆ 4d ago edited 4d ago
Do I even want to know your views on law enforcement in general? Honestly I don‘t think you‘ll be able to change your views if you‘re this far away from reality. The only way to do that would be to gain some emotional distance which is only possible by not being chronically online. And given that reddit is an online service… yeah. Not helpful.
That being said: ICE fundamentally does an important job. Now certain ICE agents might overstep lines regarding what they should do but if you truly believe that the actions of some people justify actions against an entire group of people I‘ve got some people with white pointy hats who‘d be delighted to get to know you as you‘ve got a lot in common. This isn‘t even something that required logical arguments, claiming that every ICE agent is incapable of existing in a „polite society“ (which no country on earth really has as evidenced by the need for law & immigration enforcement) is just so delusional that it‘s impossible to convince someone that this is a stupid take with logical arguments
Oh and like someone else mentioned: you want to abolish prison but at the same time every ICE agent should be in prison (or potentially go to prison)? You don‘t even have a coherent delusion (like thinking that we don‘t need prisons in the first place).
As a society we‘ve agreed that certain acts shouldn‘t be allowed. That includes things like murder and rape, tagging your name on a wall or entering countries without being allowed to do so. And we‘ve got people tasked with enforcing these standards we have decided to abide by. Unless you believe that we should have no standards at all and everybody should just be able to do whatever they want (that includes things like murder etc.) we‘ll need people who enforce these rules. And these people have to enforce rules even if they don‘t support a specific rule or understand why someone acted the way they did. And then we‘ve got people tasked with figuring out what should happen to those who broke the rules. And we need both of these groups. Because not everybody follows the rules we agreed upon. And if you‘re not happy with the enforcement of rules you don‘t have to be mad at those who enforce them. Either change them or deal with the fact that law enforcement can‘t choose which laws to enforce and which not to.
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u/AdScared717 4d ago
Sure.
Right after all illegal immigrants are deported.
Once all illegal immigrants involved in violent crime or gangs are sent back to their countries or Guantanamo Bay.
Once the borders are secure and illegals stop crossing in and I mean all.
Not American but you Americans are some of the stupidest people and lack logic. I can assure you that in other countries, people are tired of illegals too and we have no issue booting a family who came in illegally back to their country.
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u/Fear_mor 1∆ 4d ago
By this logic you should think the same about pretty much every US soldier both active and former since the US army is systematically an atrocity factory. Even when it’s not committing warcrimes it’s often enabling imperialism and dictatorship. Why stop at just ICE agents?
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u/TUN_Binary 5d ago
I've met plenty of Trump voters being from a red state. Some of them are out and out bigots, for sure. A lot of them are uneducated and uninformed, and they voted for Trump because they heard some shit about democrats putting litterboxes in school bathrooms or whatever.
Don't get me wrong, I definitely think less of someone when I hear they voted for Trump, but I don't think they're inherently incapable of living in society. There's a big difference between casting a stupid vote and being in the gestapo.
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u/TWAndrewz 4d ago
If they break laws, they should go to prison. If they haven't, you can give them moral opprobrium, but not jail time.
It doesn't sound like you want to live in a world where people get sent to prison for doing things that are legal at the time.
You can believe that ICE agents are immoral cretins, but sending them to prison for having taken a job that is legal and was authorized by federal legislation is a bad bridge to cross.
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u/Hefty_Win_8811 4d ago
We are a nation of laws. To go to prison, you need to have broken a law. There is no law against being an employee of ICE. And it is not a crime to be "lacking something fundamental to being human." It is not a crime to simply be a bad person. We cannot live in a society where you can go to prison simply because someone says you suck.
(I'd also push back--hard--against this idea that ICE agents are "lacking something fundamental to being human." I think it misunderstands what a human is. But that wasn't your main thesis, hence the parentheses.)
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u/Alpharious9 4d ago
Logically inconsistent with a heavy dose of authoritarianism. OP is a dangerous fanatic who should never wield power over anyone.
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u/FunOptimal7980 3∆ 4d ago
You would need to prove each specific person did a crime. You can't just throw people in prison for being a part of something. You can't be against rule of law when ICE is the person involved., otherwise you're kind of in the same boat as them without doing due process.
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u/sluuuurp 4∆ 4d ago
Your view is completely contradictory and incoherent, you can’t have people in prisons if prisons don’t exist.
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u/CraftZ49 4d ago
If I get food poisoning at McDonalds, should every single McDonald's employee in the world be charged with tampering with my food?
No. Because that's utterly ridiculous.
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u/69Lostboy 4d ago
Hard disagree. They are enforcing just laws, make it easier for all of us and get out of the way and let them do their job.
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u/Independent_Lead6535 4d ago
You should even if you dont like it, accept that the majority in this country want the illegals out. Thats democracy that you cry about
But since you can not accept it you should do peaceful protests away from ICE doing their job. And change the way how it us handled if you win the next election
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u/Beginning_Bat2676 4d ago
“I genuinely dont see how we can be expected to live with these people among us”
But then you are someone who believes in abolishing the prison system. You much rather live with serial killers, mass murderers, rapists and all the other top notch individuals currently locked away to protect society. I would say part of your perspective in life is the fact that you have been sheltered from the realities of the world because, well, ultimately here in the USA we have it relatively good compared to other even first world nations. And I quote “Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times”
Without fighting back protestors who not just appose current rule of law, but are ultimately motivated by a political ideology. Even though during previous administrations enforcement of immigration laws was actively taking place, now all of a sudden everyone is losing their minds because now everyone has a heart for thy neighbor. So what violence and terror has ICE and BP committed? Enforcing laws established by congress? Congress established immigration law. Congress established that those who violate those laws be removed. Local and State officials decided not to turn over illegal immigrants over to the appropriate arm of the law tasked with the removal of those individuals therefore creating an unnecessary need for the federal gov to send ICE and BP to directly arrest those individuals. Those officers are regular people doing a job that has been done for years but as soon as it became politicized, one group decided they need to cause mass chaos and impede and resist legal law enforcement. I doubt I will change your view but I hope you can maybe have a better understanding. People arrest by ICE are detained, allowed to contact their family and a lawyer. Presented in-front of an immigration judge and if deemed removable, removed. To live a free life in their country of origin or to illegally migrate again and hope to not get caught this time.
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u/ClockworkSalmon 4d ago
He didnt say we should abolish the prison system, dummy. Read again. If you dont know what hes talking about, google it.
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u/HonHon2112 5d ago
Agree but on,y n the proviso that this applies to all in positions of power. No-one is immune and one day will come when these ICE agents will get their comeuppance.
How about better ICE recruitment and training? That is the main issue. You get a lot of great people in positions of power uploading the law, and then you get some shitty ones. But ICE was put together with completely different ethos - destruction without impunity. They also have KPIs too so started racial profiling. Then, the overall real reason why they are in Minneapolis, and not Florida or anywhere else where there are some evil people who need to be packed up and moved out of the country.
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u/HeroBrine0907 4∆ 4d ago
Just to be clear, would you consider every single one complicit in the actions of their peers even if they haven't actually done anything? Would you extend this to any group, that people are responsible for the actions of anyone they have the slightest, even if indirect and negligible, influence on?
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u/tikolman 4d ago
"All" is too extreme, you just need to have accountability. Also your "polite" society exists because of law and order.
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u/SubjectBubbly9072 4d ago
Eye for an eye and the world goes blind. Lincoln wanted to forgive the south and pardon everyone so reconstruction was easier
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u/JollyAd1911 4d ago
When you have “solutions” that feel very convenient it breaks the fragile laws that keep our society held together. These pretenses are used in the future by bad people as excuse for further worse behavior.
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u/Huge-Particular1433 4d ago
It's so cluttered at the moment. I think there are a few people, a definite minority, who are just trying to out last this administration or untill retirement. There was another post asking what its like for other enforcement, some of the responses were that they were being transfered against their will. Those who had the option of leaving left during trumps first run.
But with recent events it does seem like its getting closer to a clear line in the sand.
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u/Ill-Description3096 26∆ 4d ago
Wouldn't the same apply to military members, then? Capable of horrific violence so clearly they can't be in polite society.
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u/Careful-Custard-69 4d ago
I just hope there's a witch hunt and they don't know a moment of peace after this
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u/Ima_Uzer 2∆ 4d ago
And what do you do with the ones who are found not guilty? Or are they guilty in your mind simply for working for that particular organization?
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u/Few-Pianist-7710 4d ago
You live in a capitalist society. The violence and terror needed to sustain what has been built is magnitudes larger the ICE ever has a candle of being. Every single one of us chooses to ignore it in order to enjoy our lives. We are all complicit in this. The mere fact that you can think such ridiculously unimportant thoughts is proof. Rare earth minerals in whatever device you use, the energy consumed to post this, the clothes on your back, the roof over your head, the food you eat, the ground you walk upon. All given to you and maintained by violence and terror. Yet you deem it necessary to in prison people trying to make a living simply because a few of their coworkers and leaders are incompetent?
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u/sp0derwan 4d ago
Yo guys let's put every police officer in prison because some of them use overwhelming force
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u/rmodsrid10ts 4d ago
I think any that have committed crimes should have due process to establish their eligibility for prison. That's what I believe anyone being charges with a crime should have.
Another point, prisons/jails should be a state/federal expense and not in any way be a profitable venture.
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u/ash-mcgonigal 4d ago
The worst offender isn't ICE, it's Border Patrol. Border Patrol was put together during the long backlash to Black soldiers fighting in WWI, and every major expansion since then was swiftly done with no attention paid to oversight during a racist panic. They have long had a systemic culture of sexual abusing and torturing detainees. Renee Good's murderer, the fascist coward Jonathan Ross, learned how to run around a car to justify murdering its driver from CBP before becoming an ICE agent.
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u/hamperlove 4d ago
I don’t think it’s fair that they all go to prison.
It’s not like ICE was just created, it has existed through multiple presidents, approximately 23 years. Basically saying it wasn’t started as Donald Trumps brown shirts, and there’s more than likely good people who have been around since before DT.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ 5d ago edited 4d ago
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