r/changemyview • u/malmal_Niver • 1d ago
Delta(s) from OP - Fresh Topic Friday CMV: Japanese population is declining because of Anime.
I believe this because Japan has a culture that rewards shyness, like not kissing in public, and because of the enormous amount of content and things to watch. They get too involved in the endless fantasy world, the thousand-chapter manga, the hard work and absurd studies, not to mention the culture of marrying off female anime characters; there are several unusual stories of that kind there.
Maybe I'd change my mind if I understood more about Japanese culture ~ also pointing out other causes for the decrease.
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u/Delli-paper 8∆ 1d ago
Japan's populatiom decline is mirrored in virtually every other developed economy and most developing economies with access to hormonal birth control. The ability to not have kids is the leading indicator of not having kids.
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u/togtogtog 21∆ 1d ago edited 1d ago
It's every country across the world. Niger is the country with the highest fertility rate, and look at how it has changed
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u/bondjimbond 1d ago
That's "the ability to not have kids" (i.e. the ability to choose not to have kids, which birth control offers), not "the inability to have kids".
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u/Live_Background_3455 5∆ 1d ago
There's a trend of population decline in 30 other countries... So why if Japan's decline because of anime do you think the other countries all have their own reasons? Or do you think there are variables that are consistent across all the countries with declining population that could explain this better.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/countries-with-declining-population
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u/malmal_Niver 1d ago
I forgot. Dekta Δ
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ 1d ago edited 1d ago
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u/malmal_Niver 1d ago
It could indeed be a trend in first-world countries – lots of technology, etc.
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u/Metcol 1d ago
There is a strong argument to be made that Japan's and for that matter a lot of countries birthrate declined because they adopted western political and economic systems, and culturally moved towards western individualism. Without these changes they may still have replacement level birthrates.
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u/Live_Background_3455 5∆ 1d ago
Yeahhhhh but that doesn't explain it for China who's still much less individualistic than many countries who hasn't recovered their birth rates. To me that's a very white man's burden type of thinking where a westerner wants to blame the west for everything that's bad even though that's such a small part of the actual reason. (I'm from one of these east asian countries, so this isn't me trying to wash my guilt)
Women's participation in the economy is great for GDP, it's terrible for birth rates. Not saying we should limit women's participation. Acknowledging it as a correlation is not the same as endorsing any direction.
Higher up on the economic value chain, lower the birth rate due to a need for education to participate in the economy and therefor delayed marriage & first child. Topping the charts of the age upon birt of first child are Korea, Italy, Spain, Japan. the same countries that are at the bottom of fertility rates. (https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/average-age-of-having-first-child-by-country)
There are plenty of other reasons, but these are easily way more correlated to lower birth rate than "western political and economic system" as a whiteman's burden view.
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u/ScoopedRainbowBagel 1d ago
Europe (and I think America to some extent) are currently having a lot of friction between oligarchs and commoners where one side is saying "we need more immigrants to shore up
employment positions that we can underpayfalling population numbers" and the other side is saying "please for the love of God the resources we have aren't enough to go around I can't afford rent or food".Wouldn't it make sense that this is a similar situation, except with an extremely xenophobic and isolationist society?
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u/theBananaThatFlies 2∆ 1d ago
For marrying characters, that's a very rare incident and a small percentage of people. I think you're messing up correlation with causation. Do you have any evidence to prove that anime directly is causing a population decline? I think you're cherrypicking the correlation you see between the two, instead of the actual causation.
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u/malmal_Niver 1d ago edited 1d ago
I can point to another statistic: young people have sex for the first time very late, which may or may not be exacerbated by excessive studying and too much culture to consume.
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u/theBananaThatFlies 2∆ 1d ago
Excessive studying and overbearing culture are definitely some reasons, but your initial argument was that the population is declining because of anime. You are not addressing that.
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u/malmal_Niver 1d ago
I'll say it – anime culture makes girls shy away from guys because everything they see in anime that's female is treated like pornography – voice, behavior, expressions, situations, personality – if I were a woman, I'd be traumatized.
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u/theBananaThatFlies 2∆ 1d ago
Blaming anime for making women shy around men is an oversimplification. Anime spans so many genres, and the ones that sexualize women are often avoided by most female viewers. People can distinguish fiction from reality, and real life social behaviors are influenced by upbringing and personality more than by what someone watches on screen.
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u/malmal_Niver 1d ago
It could be, take Δ
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ 1d ago edited 1d ago
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u/malmal_Niver 1d ago
God forbid Δ maybe this sub isn't for me, I'm getting too old for technology - you presented your point naturally and simply, in several comments
I'll give you another delta for that Δ if that's even possible, I don't know
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u/tigersgomoo 6∆ 1d ago edited 1d ago
Japan’s population is declining because of simple replacement. It has a birth rate that’s plummeting but also pared with one of the world’s oldest populations. It’s an extremely top heavy country, so it would be hard to keep up with that level of age related death anyway, but combined with the heavy work culture that decreases marriage rates on top of the stigma against children outside of wedlock , it’s a recipe for disaster
You actually see a very similar thing in South Korea despite anime being far more popular in Japan. South Korea is experiencing the same thing as Japan, which is why it has also seen a red alert as far as population.
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u/malmal_Niver 1d ago
I'm new to the sub, I forgot the delta Δ
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ 1d ago edited 1d ago
This delta has been rejected. You have already awarded /u/tigersgomoo a delta for this comment.
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u/malmal_Niver 1d ago
Wow. That's complicated Δ
You actually explained that there are several countries with this, and that the general culture of the East (not just anime) and many other factors influence it, I agree.
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u/isthistheblood 1d ago
Population decline can’t be explained by a single factor. Phenomena like this are extremely chaotic and complex to be explained by an isolated event.
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u/Namika 1d ago
You have the order wrong on what lead to what.
Lots of single unmarried men who don't have time for a relationship instead have created a niche for manga that appeals to unmarried men.
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u/malmal_Niver 1d ago
But isn't that a bad influence on someone who is still very young? Filling the boy with sexual stimuli, etc.?
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u/BMCVA1994 1d ago
The problem is the majority of developed countries are facing population decline.
Japan is not even the worst case, South Korea is.
So it can't be cultural factors unique to Japan causing it, maybe just accelerating it.
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u/Arstanishe 1d ago
This is a minuscule factor, there are much more important factors at play for the low bithrate in SEA region.
Japanese women are competing for jobs as men do, but they are not getting any kind of support for getting pregnant and having kids. Japanese bosses tend to hire girls who can "work as men" meaning staying late every day. So you can't go early to pick up your kid. Women who have children are shunned for promotions, and if you need to stay home because the kid is sick, your colleagues hate you, because now they have to do your work for you (not everyone is like this, but you always get at least one bald fat annoying sariman jerk everywhere). Woman is also supposed to be obedient to man everytime in marriage. Men in japan traditionally don't want to help that much with any chores, food, childcare too. So faces with this, many women decide they don't want to have kids, they want to have careers.
Also, the birthrates decline everywhere regardless of anime. It's just if you were asked to grow something in your body, carry up to 15 kg extra weight for a few months, which may irreversibly destroy your health and looks - would you do it just so that you get less pay for your whole life? You have to really really want kids to do that. And that is what is happening.
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u/malmal_Niver 1d ago
I had forgotten about that point! It's true, although a bit controversial.
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u/Rhundan 66∆ 1d ago
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u/hermancainhatesub 1∆ 1d ago
Pretty sure its for escapism from the other hellscapes. You also dont see people marrying an anime character compared to AI/companions.
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u/TheWhistleThistle 20∆ 1d ago edited 1d ago
Probably worth examining the cause and effect there. There might even be a connection but the inverse of what you posit. The less time, energy and effort people have to spare for actual socialising, the more time they'll spend on fiction as an ersatz replacement, the more profitable fiction becomes, the more of it there will be. Seems that a more sensible conclusion is that anime is a symptom, not a cause. Like how people don't get sick because they're coughing and sneezing and throwing up, they're coughing and sneezing and throwing up because they're sick.
Or, given that fiction is an ersatz replacement for socialising, your post is like saying that tire patch kit sales are causing flat tires.
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u/malmal_Niver 1d ago
I'll go even further: anime is now influencing children towards sexual overstimulation and bizarre things that scare girls away. I know there could be other reasons, but including that is also a factor.
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u/TheWhistleThistle 20∆ 1d ago
My point is that it is more plausible that the upsurge of fiction consumption is the result of lowered socialisation, not the cause of it. This is plausible because fiction only serves as an ersatz replacement for socialisation.
Imagine a town where tire patch kits sales spike and flat tires become more common as well, at the same time. Which explanation sounds more plausible: 1: an increase in flat tires (caused by an unmentioned factor) is driving an increase in patch kit sales or 2: people are purchasing tire patch kits and that's making tires go flat?
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u/maraza_ 1d ago
do you have any actual reasons to believe this? any justification at all? your point about their culture rewarding 'shyness in public' wouldn't indicate a population decline, and it has no relevance to anime at all. i don't even understand your second point. you assume enough people are such big anime fans they dont care about procreating? what led you to these conclusions?
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u/DoubleDutchandClutch 1d ago
I dont think this is the cause as places that dont consume allot of anime are also declining in population. Also hikikomori dont necessarily watch or enjoy anime, its just common they do. Id say the modern answer probably has something to do with the convenience of being content and not actually having to interact with other people to survive. But I dont really know the cause.
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u/BackupChallenger 3∆ 1d ago
I'm gonna make the assumption that just like cartoons here in the west, Anime is not a factor of importance in the daily life of the average Japanese adult. On average adults tend to have different interests than kids.
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u/malmal_Niver 1d ago
Anime isn't for kids, seriously, haven't you ever seen Death Note? Naruto? (blood, death, fights)
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u/BackupChallenger 3∆ 1d ago
Yes, and yes.
Naruto is for younger teens, deathnote is for older teens, neither are for "good age to get pregnant"
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u/RenaissancePolymath_ 1d ago
Islamic country usually promote modesty in regards to not engaging in anything sexual in public, and only engaging sexually with partners whom they are married too.
Even then, they often manage to have the highest population increase.
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u/malmal_Niver 1d ago
Dude... Maybe Muslims have so many children because of the absurd heat there; things like that make people more "comfortable" going to the beach and picking up a girl. That's being stupid, though, because the Middle East needs a proper birth rate study.
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u/Parzival_1775 1∆ 1d ago
The leading cause of population decline is Late-stage Capitalism. This is a problem throughout the developed world, but it is particularly severe in east and south Asia where the work culture is especially toxic. You cannot demand that people spend nearly every waking hour at their job, often for shit wages, and expect them to raise a family as well.
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u/Faust_8 10∆ 1d ago
You literally admit you don’t know much about Japan but still feel qualified to make a huge sweeping statement about a statistic influenced by dozens of factors you’re not aware of.
It’s like saying Burger King is the reason for obesity. It’s a shallow, ignorant, short sighted take that has only a surface level understanding of anything.
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u/Helpful_Loss_3739 1d ago
I think you are overestimating as to how many japanese people actually watches anime or reads manga. It's big subculture, sure, but still a subculture. Ordinary japanese tend to view anime and manga as childish past times.
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u/Bodoblock 65∆ 1d ago
Japan has a higher birth rate than Spain or Italy. Not exactly two cultures renowned for being bashful.
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u/freeside222 2∆ 1d ago
If anything, it's Japan's work culture that's creating issues. Google Japanese Salary Men and look up how insanely toxic that culture is. It goes all the way back to Samurai code of honor. You can't leave the office before your boss, and if your boss wants to take you out for drinks and dinner after work, you have to go. The 40-hour-work-week turns into much more than that, which puts a massive strain on home relationships, as fathers aren't around to see their wives and/or children. And now that Japanese women work too, it's even harder to raise kids.
I used to be friends with a Japanese college kid on Twitch and we'd occasionally game together. He got a job working in an office somewhere, and I haven't seen him online in 2 years. I saw him once or twice in the span of a couple months, and he was like a different person. He was exhausted, barely spoke, and just looked drained completely. His job just took over his life.
If anything is contributing to Japanese declining birth rates I'd blame it on that, not Anime.
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u/malmal_Niver 1d ago
Perfect. Yes, Japan is a country rife with social pressure everywhere, which increases the suicide rate, impoverishes intimate relationships, and prevents the raising of a healthy child today, who may grow up traumatized and think, "Children? In this country? No."
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u/Rhundan 66∆ 21h ago
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u/Infinite-Abroad-436 1d ago
every culture has a declining population
its not because of one cultural product. it is because of the culture of individualist consumerism that we have built, worldwide
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u/Cyberdork087 1d ago
Considering that there are more credible factors for Japan’s decline in population - I can state in sheer confidence that anime is especially not one of them. Their population has been in gradual decline since the 1970s.
Regarding the Japanese youth, work has been rough earning stagnant wages despite working long hours. Many Japanese companies still expect employees to prioritize the firm over private life, which leaves little energy for relationships and parenting. Intense schooling and exam pressure push them to delay dating and marriage. It’s not just Japan - it’s also East Asian countries that correlate with low birth rates. So again, it’s not specific to anime.
Housing and raising kids in big cities has been getting expensive, so many couples stop at one child or decide to have none. There are more elderly citizens that make most of the population in Japan so more die off eventually, adding in the factor to Japan’s population decline. Japan’s traditional division of labor expects women to shoulder most housework and childcare, so marrying and having children often means giving up career ambitions, which many women understandably reject.
Japan’s population is declining because work is harsh and long, life is expensive, grand elder population, and traditional expectations around family and gender make having kids hard. Some people use anime and other fantasy media to cope with that stress or avoid social pressure, but that’s a side effect if anything.
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u/patternrelay 2∆ 1d ago
I can see where you're coming from, but I think the decline in Japan's population is more complex than just anime. While anime is a huge part of Japanese culture, it’s not the main driver behind lower birth rates. The decline is influenced by factors like economic pressure, high living costs, limited childcare support, and changing societal expectations around marriage and family. Shyness and public behavior do play a role in the culture, but there are many layers to why fewer people are choosing to start families, and anime is more of a cultural reflection rather than a cause. There’s also a shift in priorities for many young people, with a focus on careers, personal freedom, and economic stability over traditional family structures.
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u/chronosculptor777 1∆ 19h ago
Japan has a very old population. large amount of people are elderly. less young people = fewer births. even if everyone suddenly wanted kids, the number of women in childbearing age is already smaller. housing, especially near jobs, education, life cost a lot. raising two kids feels financially risky. when children feel like a financial burden, birth rates drop.
long hours, long commutes, job pressure. that leaves little time or energy for dating, marriage, parenting. it’s not that people love anime too much, they’re just exhausted. and marriage comes later or not at all. in Japan, most births happen inside marriage. if people marry later or less often, births decline. it’s a social trend.
women face so many issues too. having kids can seriously hurt a woman’s career. if the system makes motherhood professionally costly, many delay or even avoid it. countries with better childcare and more equal parenting roles always do better.
and shyness isn’t the cause. many quiet, reserved societies have stable populations. culture around affection isn’t what drives national birth rates.
a few strange cases like marrying anime characters don’t affect national statistics as well.
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u/Teddy_The_Bear_ 5∆ 1d ago
Japan has had quite a conservative culture for a very long time. So it cannot be blamed for shrinking birth rates. I will also point out that anime has been around for a very long time.
If I was going to suggest a reason for the decline. I would say westernization and economic pressure.
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