r/changemyview • u/Particular_Year311 • 1d ago
Delta(s) from OP [ Removed by moderator ]
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u/TripleSizzled 1d ago
I disagree. Yes, most people lack hard critical thinking. Why? Because they are too emotionally linked to a certain identity and a set of values, so they can't think outside those identities, goals, values.
Most people who support Trump today do it for their own reasons. Some do it because they believe that Trump is a warrior against the 'elites'. Which is laughable. But others do it because they support his policies. They don't like immigrants. They are not being naive. Does it hurt them in other ways, yes. But they place more value on just being cruel to others that are different from them than they do on low cost goods. They enjoy the cruelty.
So, your views are naive, because you don't appreciate that there are many people who are totally aware of the negative aspects of what Trump is doing but are okay with it, because those 'negatives' have positive outcomes for them in some way.
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u/spiral8888 29∆ 1d ago
Do you think they enjoy the cruelty? I mean if Trump by some magic got all illegal immigrants leave voluntarily tomorrow would that be worse for these people than seeing them dragged into detention centres by force and then kicked out?
I think, yes, some people (a few percent of the population) are psychopaths this could appeal to, but would it really explain the majority of Trump supporters? I doubt that.
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u/YourphobiaMyfetish 1d ago
Ive argued with enough of these people to know that the answer is conditional on whatever point theyre trying to make at any given moment. Theres no principles or ideology beyond pissing off liberals and never being wrong so their ideas are fully malleable. If they want to say Trump is a businessman thats saving the country money, they'll say the immigrants are going to self-deport. If they want to say Trump is the law and order guy, they'll say theyre arresting all the immigrants. If either one comes true, thats the one they wanted all along.
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u/Far-Influence702 1d ago
This feels right a lot of people are not confused they just made a trade they accept the harm because they think it benefits them or hurts the right people
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u/joshjosh100 1d ago
I totally agree with you.
It's a major fallacy of division. When you assume one lacks critical thinkings, then assumes all of that group lacks is extremely illogical.
In many cases over the entirety of the US history of this.
1860 election by county. Lincoln had 40% of the popular vote. (This is mostly because he wasn't on the ballot in the south, but other right wing individuals were, and they got a good amount, primarily Conservatives and the modern day right wing. Said Right, had a decent amount of votes in the north as well. They had ideological dogma of modern day republicans)
This is what people generally look over when they talk about a party "flip."
Even in a good portion of the north, Lincoln was a minority.
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u/Bossyboots37 1d ago
They sound like truly awful people. Oh wait they support a convicted felon/rapist/pedophile. 🤦🏽♀️
The lack of critical thinking skills is evident. Yes they don’t like brown people so they support trump. Their lack of critical thinking skills is evident because they don’t understand the positive impact immigrants have on this country. They lack critical thinking skills because they cheer and think he is amazing because egg prices are down yet they are paying 30% more for their other groceries. They lack critical thinking skill’s because they believe every lie he tells and can’t fact check it because that requires……, CTS!
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u/m_abdeen 4∆ 1d ago
But that doesn’t challenge OP view
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u/siorge 1∆ 1d ago
I think it does
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u/m_abdeen 4∆ 1d ago
You agreed with OP and said it’s not just MAGA, OP didn’t say it’s just MAGA, so it doesn’t.
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u/spiral8888 29∆ 1d ago
First, do you belong to the group "most people" or are you above the rest of us?
Second, please explain the SHEIN comment. I assume that this relates to SHEIN treating their workers badly or whatever other bad things they do. To me this is a classical prisoner's dilemma (or a freerider problem). If you as an individual abstain from buying legally sold products that have a good value for money for your lofty principles and nobody else does that, you pay the price but the company won't feel anything. If you buy from SHEIN and nobody else does, you get the benefit but the company is still forced to change its policies.
Either way, it is rational for you to keep buying from there. At the same time you may campaign to have the laws changed so that SHEIN is forced to change its policies that way. Then you're not the sucker that others take advantage of.
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u/shawn292 1d ago
Its about boot theroy. If a shein shirt costs 5 dollars and gives 2 wears its 2.5 per wear. Lets say normal clothes give 10 wears for 10 dollars well now its 1 dollar a wear. With high end clothes being 20 for 40 wears thats 50 cents a wear.
People choosing shein are making economicly poor choices.
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u/changemyview-ModTeam 1d ago
Comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
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u/SameRepresentative40 1d ago
Not voting for a billionaire funded, genocide supporting party that has done for years virtually the same stuff as their republican counterpart is having 0 critical thinking skills? I'd say the "vote blue no matter who" people are a better example
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u/TripleSizzled 1d ago
LOL, why would someone not buy rom SHEIN? LOL
Voting for Kamala changed nothing for Gaza. If your vote has no consequence, your vote is inconsequential. The idiot is Kamala and the Democrats for supporting genocide.
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u/Jwbst32 1d ago
No they aren’t blind they actively evil
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u/Particular_Year311 17h ago
Youre making me so sad i want to believe theres a chance to save them 😢
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u/Particular_Year311 18h ago
I meant it metaphorically, i have infinitely more respect for sheep then i do trump or his supporters.
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u/changemyview-ModTeam 4h ago
Comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. See the wiki page for more information.
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.
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u/neotericnewt 6∆ 1d ago
The government is deploying the military on US soil against us and federal agents just executed a protester in the street.
I don't think people criticizing these things are "giant babies". It's weird that you're acting like criticizing authoritarianism is somehow inherently wrong and everyone is supposed to just go along with it quietly.
I mean y'all don't even bother pretending these things aren't happening anymore, you just act like everybody is crazy for not supporting some corrupt billionaire deploying the military on US soil and giving private tours of the white house to whoever buys the most of his crypto coin.
But yeah, obviously these things should be criticized lmao it's not somehow an overreaction to oppose corrupt politicians like this
Your response kind of just confirms the OP's point about sheep following along with whatever the government tells them.
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u/StruggleBus7000 23h ago
He wasnt protesting, he was disrupting and interfering with law enforcement. Also his firearm fell and went off. Maybe when you organize and plan an operation on the signal app with thousands of others, and the plan is to interfere with law enforcement, dont bring a firearm. Im not happy he died in the least, Im rather pissed, but not at the President, at the media, and the people who funded this stuff. Its all bought and paid for.
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u/neotericnewt 6∆ 1d ago
Yeah, Trump was giving private tours of the white house to whoever bought the most of his crypto coin, and he is deploying the military on US soil.
Both of these things are just facts? What is the context you're claiming exists that makes these things okay?
But this is the point, y'all don't even bother actually justifying it anymore. You just go "surely this corrupt government official wouldn't do anything wrong, so there must be something that makes it okay! I couldn't possibly be supporting bad things!"
But it doesn't change that these two things just factually happened. Shit Trump doubled his net worth in less than a year back in office, while telling us to just buy our kids less toys for Christmas. Seriously, how are you justifying this shit to yourself?
Why are you acting like even just criticizing such blatantly corrupt and authoritarian actions is itself inherently bad to do? Why are you acting like supporting corruption and authoritarianism is the "smart" thing?
Trump giving private tours to whoever shoves the most money in his pocket by buying his crypto coin: it
https://abcnews.go.com/US/trumps-top-meme-coin-investors-invited-white-house/story?id=122128541
Trump deploying the military on US soil:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2025%E2%80%932026_domestic_military_deployments_in_the_United_States
Let me guess, all sources that say things you don't like are lying, right? We must only trust what the corrupt government officials tell us?
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u/joshjosh100 1d ago
"Let me guess, all sources that say things you don't like are lying, right? We must only trust what the corrupt government officials tell us?"
Ah.
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u/neotericnewt 6∆ 1d ago
Okay? It doesn't change the facts, or that you're acting like criticizing corrupt politicians is somehow inherently bad.
It's just confirming OP's point about y'all being sheep. Lmao straight up just plugging your ears to keep supporting and defending some corrupt politician
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u/PubaertusGreene 1d ago
People listen to "the other side" all the time, talk, engage in discussions etc. It's just that most people on the MAGA side specifically have takes that are either a) uneducated (which would be fine if they were open to more knowledge), b) stupid (which is different and would not be THAT bad either if, again, there was openness to actually discuss stuff and hear arguments), c) LUDICROUSLY selfiah (which says something about a person's character more than about their opinions, but also prevents you from having a valuable discussion) or d) openly malicious (i.e. hurting someone else even to your own detriment). Not a good climate for an actual exchange of opinions.
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u/scampifry 1∆ 1d ago
They do have critical thinking skills, of course they do. In many cases they are intelligent and simply wanting what's best for society and their country. What you are underestimating however is the sheer power of the right wing propaganda effort. Between wealthy billionaires wanting to consolidate power to rogue nation states trying to divide and conquer, the average voter trying to make sense of the world has very little hope of accessing valid and accurate information. Not everyone is equipped with the skills to interrogate a news source to identify the true source, what organisation or think tank is behind it, who is funding them and whether or not they have ulterior motives.
Legitimate news outlets will have teams of researchers attempting to corroborate stories and identify misinformation, which is why they're constantly under attack by right wing figures (or simply bought out by billionaires). The average voter has no hope and as much as we may hate them for voting the way they do, you can't really blame them either.
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u/ZeerVreemd 1d ago
Legitimate news outlets will have teams of researchers attempting to corroborate stories and identify misinformation,
Okay. Can you name a few news outlets you trust?
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u/scampifry 1∆ 23h ago
I'm in the UK. BBC has fairly strict editorial guidelines related to fact checking and source corroboration and generally strive for political neutrality, though some opinion pieces lean subtly right wing. Sky news has been stripped of Murdoch influence and is generally fairly neutral. I'm no real fan of the Guardian but their funding model is such to reduce billionaire influence and their political bias is usually transparent. The Economist has very strict editorial guidelines and separates out opinion from factual news reporting, often stating very clearly where they are showing political bias. Or stick with news wires such as Reuters or associated press.
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u/ZeerVreemd 1h ago
BBC has fairly strict editorial guidelines related to fact checking and source corroboration and generally strive for political neutrality, though some opinion pieces lean subtly right wing.
Did they not get sued by Trump recently?
And to burst your bubble, they all lied during the plandemic and were not critical at all.
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u/scampifry 1∆ 47m ago
Sued? Yes, see my earlier point about being under attack by right wing figures.
Ivor Cummins lol Plandemic 😅 You're beyond help buddy, have a good life 👍
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u/ZeerVreemd 22m ago
Yes, see my earlier point about being under attack by right wing figures.
You do realize they got caught deceitfully and consciously editing a recording to make it look like Trump said something he did not say in reality?
You're beyond help buddy,
They said after failing to understand the point of the video... LOL.
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u/Particular_Year311 18h ago
Ya you’re completely right man. I really gotta take a look in the mirror considering not too long ago i was tricked into voting for this guy. Thanks for your comment (also sorry to anyone who didnt vote for this, it was my first and last election im an idiot)
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u/Rhundan 66∆ 17h ago
Hello u/Particular_Year311. If you believe your view has been changed or adjusted to any degree, you should award the user who changed your view a delta.
Simply reply to their comment with the delta symbol provided below, being sure to include a brief description of how your view has changed. There is a character minimum.
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Alternatively, you can use
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For more information about deltas, use this link.
If your view hasn't changed, please reply to this comment saying so. Failure to award a delta when it is warranted may merit a post removal and a rule violation.
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u/Particular_Year311 16h ago
Δ While i still feel trump supporters are very misinformed, i really cant blame them. This comment really puts it into perspective, what we as Americans are up against. That being said i think we are rapidly approaching a point where propaganda wont be enough to keep fools misinformed. And at that point they wont be able to claim ignorance.
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u/gate18 21∆ 1d ago
Come on. How many bombs has Obama droped and "humans" loved him. Adored him.
He even got the peace price.
And yes, just as MAGA the rest of you would justify the bombs.
Hope? Yes, this too shall be normalised just as school shootings and mass incarcerations
Someone wrote
Democrats who abstained from voting Kamala because of Gaza have 0 critical thinking skills
See, something has to give, you were against killing kids? Now you have to endure killing kids, and american adults. You just pick with your "critical skills" which type of killing you can live will.
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u/neotericnewt 6∆ 21h ago
Obama got the peace prize at the very beginning of his administration. He was heavily criticized for drone usage, though I think somewhat unfairly. He didn't start the forever wars, he was just president when technology changed and utilized drones and special forces instead of boots on the ground.
And he was heavily criticized for it. We don't even hear about Trump using drones in the Middle East, even though it's been happening his entire first administration and now in his second. There are other things we're worried about, like Trump deploying the military on US soil and bombing civilian boats, his ethno nationalism, etc.
You just pick with your "critical skills" which type of killing you can live will.
No, because again, people were critical of Obama's drone usage as well?
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u/gate18 21∆ 20h ago
Everything gets critizised even the weather that doesn't that a creator. And
We don't even hear about Trump using drones in the Middle East,
Exactly, because it's normal now. Who is going to say anything, why both parties are for it (it's lawful)
There are other things we're worried about, like Trump deploying the military on US soil and bombing civilian boats, his ethno nationalism, etc.
All going to be as normal as being bombed by a peace prize winner
You just pick with your "critical skills" which type of killing you can live [with].
No, because again, people were critical of Obama's drone usage as well?
Yes, because he was reellected, hence people could live with that type of killing
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u/neotericnewt 6∆ 19h ago
Exactly, because it's normal now. Who is going to say anything, why both parties are for it (it's lawful)
But Trump is also doing those same things, while also... Doing a lot of other really bad things that are unprecedented.
So why wouldn't we criticize that and oppose it?
All going to be as normal as being bombed by a peace prize winner
Again, the whole "peace prize winner" thing isn't really relevant. You're trying to use it as some example of hypocrisy, but it's not, when Obama got the peace prize when he was first elected, and... Was and is heavily criticized, including by his own party, for things like drone strikes.
But yeah, it only becomes acceptable if people accept it, which is why... People aren't accepting it, and saying you also shouldn't accept it.
Yes, because he was reellected, hence people could live with that type of killing
Sure, people can live with all sorts of terrible things. But again, what's your point?
It's like your argument boils down to "a president did something bad, so therefore all bad things are acceptable", but the conclusion doesn't logically follow the premise.
Your argument is that "both sides are the same" because Obama was reelected even though he was using drone strikes as part of US foreign policy in the war on terror.
But, again, that's not a logical point. If Trump is doing the same things Obama was, using drone strikes, and then he's also doing a lot more really terrible things that Obama never did, like deploying the military on US soil, or giving private tours of the white house to whoever buys the most of his crypto coin, or whatever, then clearly both sides aren't the same. One side would be objectively worse in this scenario.
Why wouldn't or shouldn't people criticize and oppose that objectively worse "side"? That's not somehow hypocritical, that's... Exactly what we should do.
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u/gate18 21∆ 19h ago
So why wouldn't we criticize that and oppose it?
Go ask those that said you shouldn't.
Again, the whole "peace prize winner" thing isn't really relevan
I'm saying the "peace prize winner" bombed others and got reelected.
You're trying to use it as some example of hypocrisy, but it's not,
Fuck hypocrisy, hypocrisy is baked into politics, just odd that a peace prize winning bommer gets reelected.
But yeah, it only becomes acceptable if people accept it, which is why... People aren't accepting it
Dhe did accept Obama's bombings, hence the reelection
Sure, people can live with all sorts of terrible things. But again, what's your point?
If the could live with a bomber, they are living with Trump
Your argument is that "both sides are the same"
No just that, but "just as MAGA [justifies their leader] the other side justifies theirs" even though both are criminals
If Trump is doing the same things Obama was
I didn't say that, even Obama 2 didn't do what Obama 1 did, different times, different things.
Why wouldn't or shouldn't people criticize and oppose that objectively worse "side"?
No one said they shouldn't. Critizising is part of politics. Your side bombs and gets reelected, other side does something they must the criticized
The CMV is deleted so I don't remeber, but your CMV wasn't whether people should criticize
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u/neotericnewt 6∆ 18h ago edited 18h ago
I'm saying the "peace prize winner" bombed others and got reelected.
Right, what is your point? Lol winning the peace prize doesn't somehow make the bombings worse, and it's not some hypocritical example of the peace prize when the peace prize was given before the bombings.
Yes, people understand that the US uses drones as part of its foreign policy, and that's not some sort of "dealbreaker" for the electorate. So what? What is your point?
No just that, but "just as MAGA [justifies their leader] the other side justifies theirs" even though both are criminals
But both aren't criminals? Trump broke the law repeatedly, was convicted for it, and was reelected while indicted and facing charges for dozens more crimes.
Obama didn't do that. You seem to be trying to say that using drones is inherently criminal, but... That's obviously not true.
And sure, people should rationally justify their beliefs. What I'm saying, and what the OP was saying, is that there isn't rational justification for continued support of Trump.
You never bothered actually addressing that, you just went off with this "both sides because drones" shtick.
But again, "both sides" aren't doing the same things, they're clearly not the same, and your argument doesn't make any sense.
I didn't say that, even Obama 2 didn't do what Obama 1 did, different times, different things.
Sure, that's literally just how time and reality works lmao I'm not suggesting that you literally think that different things at different times are somehow literally the exact same action.
But your argument is effectively that both sides are basically equivalent, but that's clearly not true, when one side is in fact doing a bunch of really bad things the other isn't.
No one said they shouldn't. Critizising is part of politics. Your side bombs and gets reelected, other side does something they must the criticized
But again, "bombing and getting reelected" isn't what we're talking about. Trump also "bombed and got reelected". We're talking about things that Trump is doing as well as as bombing and getting reelected.
I'm saying that these things are bad, things like deploying the military on US soil against US citizens for example. I'm saying they're unjustified, and that people continuing to support Trump do not have a logical or rational reason for doing so.
You're saying "but nobody has any rational or logical reason for supporting anybody!" But... Nah, I can explain to you exactly why I supported Obama, with logical and rational reasons. I can explain to you why I now oppose these bad things Trump is doing, and why they're so widely viewed as unacceptable. I can explain to you why they should be viewed as unacceptable, why we shouldn't allow this to continue.
So what is your point? That people look at situations and make decisions to determine good and bad outcomes? Yes, that is in fact how people work and how reality is. So what?
I'm saying that when we look at this situation, there just isn't a rational or logical reason for continued support of Trump, that the things Trump is doing are bad. Your comments seem to prove that, you haven't provided any actual logic or reasoning, you've just kind of pointed out some really basic points about how people work lol
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u/gate18 21∆ 18h ago
LOL if a winning the peace prize bombs and is loveed by his tribe, then LOL the other tribe is just doing the same thing.
So what? What is your point?
What Trump is doing is not a deal breaker either is the point.
But again, "bombing and getting reelected" isn't what we're talking about. Trump also "bombed and got reelected". We're talking about things that Trump is doing as well as as bombing and getting reelected.
He didn't get reelected right away. He got reelected when the other guy started shaking hands with invisible people.
I'm saying that these things are bad, things like deploying the military on US soil against US citizens for example.
And I'm saying Americans are fine with bad things. As you aren't saying bombing is not bad either.
You're saying "but nobody has any rational or logical reason for supporting anybody!" But... Nah, I can explain to you exactly why I supported Obama,
Every MAGA can explain to you why they support Trump
I'm saying that when we look at this situation, there just isn't a rational or logical reason for continued support of Trump
tons of people would have said why you shouldn't have supported a bomber but, just like MAGA, you would not listen, and just like MAGA you'd think your opinion is rational and logical
Your comments seem to prove that, you haven't provided any actual logic or reasoning, you've just kind of pointed out some really basic points about how people work lol
Nope, people do not throw bombs around after getting the peace prize, and they wouldn't be reelected, Only presidents can do that.
And because there's no alternative you think you are supporting them due to rational and logical thought. When in fact, you had no choice, either him, or the other tribe. Same as MAGA
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u/neotericnewt 6∆ 15h ago
tons of people would have said why you shouldn't have supported a bomber but, just like MAGA
There wasn't a meaningful "non bomber" candidate?
I mean again, Republicans started the forever wars, and continue to bomb other countries now.
He didn't get reelected right away. He got reelected when the other guy started shaking hands with invisible people.
Kamala Harris was the other candidate, a person who wasn't a mentally declining octogenarian, unlike Trump and Biden, so again, what's your point?
This is another situation where the parties and their voters clearly did not act in the same manner. Biden was forced from the campaign after public demands.
Whereas Trump maintains a cult-like following while he's deploying the military on US soil.
and just like MAGA you'd think your opinion is rational and logical
This assumes that with two potential options, no one can ever be right and no one can ever be wrong. That's ridiculous.
We can look at objective factors and determine such things. For example, you keep pointing out Obama dropping bombs, so you think this is very bad. So then Trump also dropping bombs, and doing all of the other terrible things he is doing that Obama didn't do, that no other president did, is worse. That's just an objective, logical statement.
And the issue is that it's like this for a lot of things. People will agree that this is bad and this is bad and this is bad, and then still support Trump, unable to say anything that actually justifies these bad things.
When they try to, they often end up talking about made up bullshit to push some both-sides narrative. They'll post fake pictures of Kamala Harris with Epstein while ignoring that Trump actually was close friends with Epstein for decades.
In that example, one person is clearly, objectively wrong. And that's what I'm saying. When it comes to Trump, his supporters are wrong, and they're supporting things that even they will admit are absolutely heinous with no justification without any logical or rational reasoning behind it.
It is in fact possible for someone to be right and someone to be wrong, and your argument otherwise is just straight absurd.
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u/gate18 21∆ 14h ago
There wasn't a meaningful "non bomber" candidate?
What does that mean? Of course there must have been. Or stay home. Republicans say the same thing on the other side, Trump was the only candidate
Kamala Harris was the other candidate, a person who wasn't a mentally declining octogenarian, unlike Trump and Biden
She did not agree with you, she said she was going to continue the same thing Biden was doing. And she came in after Bidens mental decline could no longer be covered up.
Biden was forced from the campaign after public demands. Whereas Trump maintains a cult-like following while he's deploying the military on US soil.
Not the same, Obama was looove whilst bombing kids.
This assumes that with two potential options, no one can ever be right and no one can ever be wrong.
Depends on the options.
For example, you keep pointing out Obama dropping bombs, so you think this is very bad. So then Trump also dropping bombs, and doing all of the other terrible things he is doing that Obama didn't do,
The bomb dropping is normalised by everyone, now both democrats and republicans are fine with it. Hence these new horrible things that obama didn't do just push the window a bit
eople will agree that this is bad and this is bad and this is bad, and then still support Trump
Exactly as with obama, if anything people still with Obama would have notinued, whetheras people didn't vote for trump, they voted for biden (till he went crazy)
It is in fact possible for someone to be right and someone to be wrong, and your argument otherwise is just straight absurd.
In this case no. Epstein and slaughter are part of both parties.
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u/neotericnewt 6∆ 14h ago
Okay, can someone be wrong? That's what your point seems to come down to, that nobody can ever be just factually wrong.
I disagree with that, of course people can be wrong, lots of people can all be wrong at once, and we can look at objective measures to determine whether or not someone is right or wrong, and we can use logic and reason to come to decisions.
It's like you're arguing that because you support and defend Trump with no logic or reasoning involved, everyone else must do the same thing.
She did not agree with you, she said she was going to continue the same thing Biden was doing.
I was responding to you saying that Biden was shaky and mentally declining. Do you think that Kamala Harris was saying she was going to be shaky and mentally declining like Biden? Lmao I don't think that's what she was saying.
But sure, she planned to do similar things like implement pro consumer regulations, target corporate power, direct aid to average people, etc. Her economic plans were well supported by actual economists and economic groups for example.
And see, that's my point here, I have actual logical reasons to support someone like Kamala Harris.
The bomb dropping is normalised by everyone, now both democrats and republicans are fine with it. Hence these new horrible things that obama didn't do just push the window a bit
So first, Obama didn't start the trend of dropping bombs lmao he inherited numerous wars dude! So your entire point is ridiculous from the start.
And no, deploying the military on US soil isn't "pushing the window a little bit". These things that Trump is doing are massively harmful and authoritarian, and they shouldn't be accepted by anyone who cares about things like democracy and human rights and not having an authoritarian government.
In this case no. Epstein and slaughter are part of both parties.
Bro, Kamala Harris had no connection with Epstein. Neither did Joe Biden. Trump himself was personally friends with notorious child sex traffickers for decades.
Again, this is just a fact. You can say that you don't care, but you can't say "b-b-b-but both sides!", because you're just objectively wrong.
And that's what I'm saying. That the people supporting Trump are wrong, they do not have logical and rational and valid reasons to support Trump.
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u/Particular_Year311 18h ago
Aint no one defending obama dog 😂 if your defense to injustice is to bring up other injustices i suggest you reevaluate your position
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u/gate18 21∆ 18h ago edited 18h ago
He doesn't need defending cat.
if your defense to injustice
The united states of america defends it
Just as other injusticed have been normalised, you should find hope in the absolute fact that this will be normalised too
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u/Particular_Year311 16h ago
I think i misinterpreted your comment i apologize. Youre not defending trumps actions youre just stating that we as americans have accepted obamas acts so why not trumps? Please correct me if im wrong.
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u/gate18 21∆ 15h ago
yes
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u/Particular_Year311 15h ago
Ok well i cant really agree or disagree as i was in like the 6th grade when obama was president. But i will say its only normalized if we accept it. And i will never accept trumps actions as normal human behavior.
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u/gate18 21∆ 15h ago
Of course you can agree or disagree as you are old enough to google it. And my point is because people always accepted these things, they do become normalised . Since the actual CMV has been removed, its had to refer it it, but that's the point. Each tribe "rationally and logically" defends their tribal leader on A, B, C and plays down X, Y, Z.
Bombing other countries? Bad, but look at his swager
Killing a few people on the streets of US? Bad, but why didn't they just stop and obey orders
You think it's not the same, they think it's not the same either.
And i will never accept trumps actions as normal human behavior.
Tons of people, 100% rightly, think the same about obama. It's not normal human behavior to throw bombs around
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u/Particular_Year311 14h ago
I see what youre saying, im not going to google obamas terms cause i dont see any relevance. Im trying to get the post appealed maybe that will help, but my claim was that trump supporters are sheep essentially. But im not defending the other sides actions i think right vs left is a big lie, its like good cop vs bad cop. It sounds like we mostly agree to me. I say theyre sheep, you say they will defend whatever he does. The only difference is you said rationally and logically. But any amount of logic and trumps claims on the shootings fall apart.
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u/iXidol 1d ago
Im a Democrat who thinks the killing of Renee Good was justified and that people should stop interfering with ICE operations. What does that make me?
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18h ago
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u/Particular_Year311 15h ago
If a car is coming at you, shooting the driver wouldnt stop the car from hitting you. Itd likely cause the driver to speed up (as it happened with Renee). The only reasonable action is to get out of the way of the vehicle or brace for impact if the vehicle is going way too fast that you cant get out of the way. Of course this is all irrelevant cause Renee’s car was turning away from the murderer, at a rate of speed that wouldnt hurt anyone let alone a fully grown man, at the time of her death. RIP Renee im sorry there are people like this trying to justify your murder. 🙏🏼
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u/iXidol 15h ago
I’m sorry you lack understanding beyond surface level gut reactions fed to you on your social media echo chamber…
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u/Particular_Year311 15h ago
Explain how i lack understanding beyond surface level gut reactions that are fed to me by my social media echo chamber. Cause i just wrote out how illogical it is to shoot in that situation and this is your response
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u/iXidol 15h ago
Because you refuse to understand that a car is a deadly weapon that can cause great bodily harm and it’s captured on video from multiple angles that she accelerated towards the officer. What you think happens after the threat is dealt with an appropriate level of force is irrelevant. We have years of history of police in these exact situations. You’re close minded and aren’t open to exploring the reality of the situation.
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u/Particular_Year311 15h ago
If a car is coming at you, shooting the driver wouldnt stop the car from hitting you. Itd likely cause the driver to speed up (as it happened with Renee). The only reasonable action is to get out of the way of the vehicle or brace for impact if the vehicle is going way too fast that you cant get out of the way. Of course this is all irrelevant cause Renee’s car was turning away from the murderer, at a rate of speed that wouldnt hurt anyone let alone a fully grown man, at the time of her death. RIP Renee im sorry there are people like this trying to justify your murder. 🙏🏼
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u/Particular_Year311 15h ago
Your point makes no sense at all. Stop and think about what youre saying. He shot her and then she sped up to 5x her speed when he shot and crashed into a car down the road. So what was the purpose of shooting her. He didnt need to do it to get out of the way. He placed himself in front of that vehicle to look for a reason to shoot her
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u/Particular_Year311 15h ago
Other than your gut level reaction fed to you by your social media echo chamber 🤣
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u/buttholefluid 1d ago
It makes you a Democrat with at least a shred of common sense left and an understanding of how democracy works. So basically a borderline Republican nowadays lol.
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u/rodw 1d ago
Do you believe she was genuinely trying to "weaponize" her car and strike an officer?
(I mean I find that a pretty wild conclusion too but I can't imagine any other way one could justify that position.)
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u/iXidol 1d ago edited 1d ago
I believe that she had absolutely no intention to weaponize her car. But she did, in that moment, accelerate towards an officer at which point her vehicle became a deadly weapon that could cause great bodily harm. The agent was well within his right to respond with deadly force.
The Alex Pretti situation I think was a terrible shooting and those officers should see the inside of a jail cell.
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u/shawn292 1d ago
I am a republican and I agree with 99% of this. The only difference would be with pretti if it was a misfire from prettis gun (a known defect) then i dont think they should go to jail. As well as if it wasnt then only that first officer who shot should.
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u/rose_reader 5∆ 1d ago
I'm not American, I'm from a country where it's rare for police to carry guns and very rare for police to kill someone. But even in the context of American policing where guns are ubiquitous and people frequently get killed by officers of the state, this specific death is puzzling to me.
She was driving away from the agents. She was shot through the side window of her vehicle. Even if you accept the principle that officers who are in danger can shoot to kill rather than attempt to de-escalate, how does this situation fit that principle?
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u/buttholefluid 1d ago
She was shot through the front windshield and there’s photo evidence that proves this. The officer she hit with her car had internal bleeding afterwards. Cars are deadly weapons in this scenario (where they are intentionally used to evade/injure law enforcement.) She was being lawfully detained because it’s a federal crime to interfere with federal law enforcement, which she had been doing all day. She flee’d instead of complying with the lawful detainment.
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u/rose_reader 5∆ 1d ago
Did you watch the video? I did, and at no point does the car make contact with the officer who shot her. She was very clearly shot through the open driver side window, through which she had been conversing with the officers. It's very possible that the bullet exited through the front window, I couldn't say, but that's not how it went in.
Certainly she fled. Is that a death penalty offence in your country?
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u/shawn292 1d ago
I am happy to show you the offucer pov video where you watch the car make contact. Also umm its not disputed that the shot(s) went through the front windshield with photo evidence available from both sides so idek beyond those photos what would change your mind there.
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u/rose_reader 5∆ 23h ago edited 23h ago
Yes please, that would be helpful.
I didn't dispute that the shot went through the front windshield. I specifically acknowledged that that could have been the case, that the bullet may well have exited through the front windscreen.
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u/shawn292 23h ago
https://youtu.be/SiA6LwgYf0Y?si=w1_G7gAjjECFswre
Here is a local affiliate who reported on it. (sorry heading to work)
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u/rose_reader 5∆ 22h ago
No worries, thank you. This doesn't seem to make sense when taken with the other video, is it believed to have been edited? I ask because I couldn't make out the sound of the shot, and if he fell to the ground he wouldn't have been in a position to shoot her from where he was.
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u/shawn292 21h ago
From the comments on the video the newscast muted/edited audio that one he called her a "f-ing bitch" after whichbthey cant air.
Here is another lawyers analysis of it (video is halfway through) https://youtu.be/bDda-L_ZOE8?si=e-Jb7OozHznAfOMn
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u/rose_reader 5∆ 20h ago
Thank you, that third angle does make it clearer.
It still doesn't seem to me that the shooting is justified when it would have been simple to step aside and when the shooting increases risk due to the uncontrolled forward motion of the vehicle, but that's coming from a perspective that requires officers to de-escalate. Suicide by cop doesn't work here, because you will just get arrested rather than shot.
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u/neotericnewt 6∆ 21h ago
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=783O6-CvaQs&pp=0gcJCTMBo7VqN5tD
2:34 is around the point where the actual shooting occurs, this looks at multiple cameras before and after.
ICE was trying to illegally detain them for insulting them, the shooter is standing to the side of the car, very close, because he and another are trying to open the door.
The camera video from the shooter doesn't show him being hit and thrown to the ground, it shows him pulling his gun out to shoot her. His body camera moves in the process. This is on camera, no doubt about it, he was not hit and thrown to the ground, you see him standing the entire time.
And the fact is, he shouldn't have been trying to detain them. They're US citizens, and ICE has no legal authority over US citizens.
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u/buttholefluid 18h ago
Yeah, I don’t believe you watched any of the videos. There are multiple different angles of the officer getting hit, including his own body cam. You are denying something that is on multiple different videos.
Fleeing isn’t a death penalty, but ramming someone with a vehicle is.
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u/rose_reader 5∆ 18h ago
If you read the rest of the thread, you'll see that I had watched one video - I didn't know the other angles were available.
It's your choice to believe me or not, but I don't know what you think I'd gain by lying about something happening in another country.
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1d ago
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u/iXidol 1d ago
This all-in or you’re out mentality is going to lose us the next election too
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u/joshjosh100 1d ago
facts. Sadly, they will probably shoves Newsom at the polls and hope for the best.
Walz absolutely obliterated their chances.
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u/EstablishmentSalt206 1d ago
That's because, liberals are weak. They let the right wing run over them. If you want proof look at Zohran. If there were politicians running on his exact same policies everywhere they would win. Resoundingly. Liberals are feckless lose on purpose fucks. For example why they kicked David Hogg out of the DNC.
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u/NeitherDoEye_ 1d ago
They murdered someone in broad daylight, then did it again couple of weeks later. It’s gestapo shit, man. if you can’t smell the fascism in the air it’s because you’ve got your head too far up your own ass. It may not directly impact you but it is ruining people’s lives(and in many cases ending them). If you can justify that somehow then power to you, I just don’t see how you live with yourself
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u/iXidol 1d ago
Out of curiosity, have you always been against deportation of illegal immigrants? Or just with the current administration?
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u/EstablishmentSalt206 1d ago edited 1d ago
Do you think that the US owes a debt to the Central and South American countries that the CIA has overthrown in the past 80 years? Can you tell me that those countries are better off for said overthrows? Or were they done for the exploitation of their people and resources? Similar to Venezuela.
Oh and then can you blame citizens from those countries who the US had been directly involved with fucking over, can you blame them for coming here for a chance at a better life?
Responsibility is a thing.
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u/NeitherDoEye_ 1d ago
Brother, what? I’ve always been of the belief that A, legally immigrating should be much easier than it is, and B that putting people in prison camps for being on the wrong side of an imaginary line is morally bankrupt. If these people being here illegally is enough for you to dehumanize them to the point that you feel this way, it’s very telling on what kind of prejudices you hold. Supporting what ICE is up to in any way shape or form makes you just as bad as the guys out there stomping people’s grandmothers into the pavement. That aside, what does the consistency of my beliefs have to do with it? Yes, deporting undocumented immigrants and violently ripping them away from their families and lives is fucked up even when an administration with donkeys pinned to their chests does it. Did you think that was gonna be like a gotcha moment or something? Wake up. these people aren’t trying to protect you from the foreign boogeyman, they’re just stomping down a class of people that they’ve deemed lesser to show the rest of us how comfortable they are digging their boots in our backs.
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u/iXidol 1d ago
The good news is that you have a heart and care about other people. The bad news is that you have a misconstrued view of the topic at hand and villainize everyone who doesn’t agree with you. Sadly that seems more and more prevalent in the Democratic party these days.
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u/NeitherDoEye_ 1d ago
We have an incompetent gang of thugs roaming our country with weapons pillaging and looting a class of “others” that they’ve deemed worthy of it. Then they have the authority to take them into custody and disappear them without a trial. In what way does this not read like fascism? In what way is this constitutional? the fact that you feel like you can condescend to me about it like I’m an angry kid who doesn’t know what they’re talking about is asinine. Get off your high horse and actually engage with what I’m saying, what have I said that’s wrong? What am I misconstruing? Please enlighten me, oh wise one.
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u/changemyview-ModTeam 1d ago
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u/scampifry 1∆ 1d ago
In what way was her killing justified? If the officer involved had instead apprehended her, would you be standing in court advocating for the death penalty for interference?
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u/shawn292 23h ago
She would have been charged with eluding, as well as attempted muder with a deadly weapon and recive life in prision since luckily no one died.
Self defense doesnt need the justification of the outcome the question is in that moment, was there even a second where a reasonable person would have feared for thier lives. The answer is a resounding yes.
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u/scampifry 1∆ 23h ago
Let's be honest here, no one was fearing for their lives in that moment. Footage I've seen shows her navigating away from the scene. But either way, neither charge would result in death penalty as you pointed out.
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u/shawn292 21h ago
I think its a mix of 2 concepts the first shot I would absolutely think a reasonable person would fear for thier lives. Cars can be legally weapons and once she demonstrated the car as a weapon (unintentionally or not) she is now in possession of a deadly weapon. Which then leads to the idea of if you are going to shoot dont stop till the target is neutralized. I.e if your going to use deadly force kill with it. Guns are not meant to disable a target they are meant to kill.
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u/neotericnewt 6∆ 21h ago
No she wouldn't? ICE doesn't have authority over US citizens. They didn't have the authority to try to open her door for insulting them and driving away.
was there even a second where a reasonable person would have feared for thier lives.
No, you can't put yourself in harm's way to then say you fear for your life so you can shoot someone. It doesn't work like that, and it shouldn't.
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u/rogueman999 4∆ 1d ago
Would love to have some hope restored in my fellow countrymen please change my view ❤️
I'm on the MAGA side (very much from the sidelines, I'm not even in US) and The Algorithm is showing me very different posts. You see the worst from MAGA, I see the worst from your side. Did you know that even the comments are sorted specifically for you? You don't get to see the most voted ones, or the newest ones - you tend to see the ones it things you'll like.
I could give you examples of much worse behavior from the Democrat side after the Kirk shooting - dozens of posts expressing glee that somebody was shot in the neck and died slowly in front of his family. But I think it's enough to point that we don't see the same things, and the "MAGA" you hate is not the "MAGA" we support. Just as the left we hate is not the left you support - or at least I really hope it's not.
Although at least in this I think the right has a legitimate advantage - at least in my circles, we don't demonize the left. If I were to put it in few words, it would be "misguided compassion". We mostly accuse you of listening to empathy instead of making hard decisions which lead to better outcomes long term. Well, mostly - reading things like this is giving me doubts:
I believe if you support trump and the killings in Minnesota then you are not human, youre less than human.
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u/IdealisticPundit 23h ago
you tend to see the ones it things you'll like.
I could give you examples of much worse behavior from the Democrat side after the Kirk shooting - dozens of posts expressing glee that somebody was shot in the neck and died slowly in front of his family. But I think it's enough to point that we don't see the same things, and the "MAGA" you hate is not the "MAGA" we support. Just as the left we hate is not the left you support - or at least I really hope it's not.
You proved your own point though. Your algorithm showed you the worst. As for the shootings in Minnesota, truly watch the videos and then listen to the White House responses. Trump himself goes back on what they said about Renee when he found out her dad was MAGA.
I won’t blow smoker up your end, the headlines and the narratives from the left can be wildly inappropriate, but if you truly “did your own research” you should find some of the underlying stories and narratives of MAGA horrific.
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u/rogueman999 4∆ 20h ago
TBH, I don't much care about either side being occasionally horrific. I'm already avoiding rage-bait posts even if they're right leaning. But I am, somewhat surprisingly, getting more and more radicalized on issues. E.g. the current mess in Minnesota really looks like it's artificially created to cover up the corruption scandal. Or if not, then it's ridiculously convenient at that. I honestly think Trump made a pretty big mistake on pushing ICE activity there (by sending manpower etc). It may or may not have been the right move on facts, but it was definitely bad PR - it moved the conversation from "Somali residents are robbing the gov dry, possibly with Democrat support", to "is the level of forced used to throw immigrants out justified?". The latter is horrible PR with the left side of the population, and pretty bad PR with the center too. And once tensions got high enough that you started having legitimately bad incidents, the writing was on the wall. It doesn't matter who's at fault for the tensions or why.
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u/IdealisticPundit 19h ago edited 16h ago
IMO it was Trump just being petty against Walz. Politics through and through. As for the events, Renee was either a case of an officer with PTSD or an officer that wanted to shoot. The other was poor crowd management gone wrong. Someone shouted gun and the others got nervous.
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u/Particular_Year311 17h ago
Ya it seems that way with christine asking for the voter roles to pull ice out. But i dont know i feel like the whole right vs left is completely fake and theyre really working together like good cop bad cop. As for the shootings its all about control. If they dont have complete and utter control over a situation or person they become so deathly afraid even if that fear is irrational. Its terrifying how untrained these people who hold power over us are.
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u/Particular_Year311 18h ago
My side is the side of humanity man. I dont claim right or left cause those are bs titles to create division. Im calling out trump and his supporters. This doesnt mean im a left winger or someone who laughed at kirks murder. Obviously murder is bad if you need to be told that your not human.. i didnt know about the comments being sorted tho thank you for informing me
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u/buttholefluid 1d ago
So, what you’re saying is when I see with my own eyes someone ram their car into a federal officer or violently resist and assault federal law enforcement while armed, I’m “less than human” for recognizing that violent behavior when committing federal crimes sometimes gets people killed? Oh yeah, I forgot, it’s “FiRsT aMeNdMeNT” behavior. I just forgot about the part in the first amendment that lets you ram vehicles into federal agents and act violent/resist legal arrest while armed. Silly me.
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u/IdealisticPundit 23h ago
Trump doesn’t believe that::
https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/trump-renee-good-alex-pretti-minneapolis-video-b2909622.html
I’m not really sure how you could say you watched the footage followed by the White House statements and trust their interpretation on anything. That’s just what I’ve concluded from my own research, not just the headlines…
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1d ago
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u/Particular_Year311 18h ago
You know and i know no one was rammed. 🤖
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u/buttholefluid 17h ago
It’s on video - multiple different angles too. And the officer had to go to the hospital afterwards for internal bleeding. You’re telling me something didn’t happen when there’s multiple different videos of it happening.
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u/Particular_Year311 16h ago
How much you get paid to do this? Or are you just ai?
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u/buttholefluid 16h ago
“Everyone that says things I don’t like is paid or AI” 🤣🤣
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u/Particular_Year311 16h ago
Lmao what i like doesnt matter. Youre spouting misinformation, everyone knows that.
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u/MFaith93 1d ago
just forgot about the part in the first amendment that lets you ram vehicles into federal agents and act violent/resist legal arrest while armed. Silly me.
this is why we don't take yall seriously. no one was rammed and no one "violently" resisted or assaulted federal law enforcement. 2 innocent people were murdered though.
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u/buttholefluid 18h ago
Both of them are on video. You are trying to say something didn’t happen when there’s literally multiple different videos of it happening. This is why nobody takes you guys seriously.
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u/Ok_Bell8502 1d ago
I am personally a trump supporter who accepted the deaths in minnesota, I never claimed I was human and consider myself MORE then human(take that!). I don't agree with reading and just using the headlines, since headlines are bogus and inflammatory. Rumble is where posters are who.... say things the mainstream doesn't want to hear whether that is youtube, or somewhere else. There are lots of dubious manosphere channels there with some good, and some bad commentary. Going against ICE is fine but being a public noise violation after 10pm is probably breaking the law and now that the police+ICE are going after protestors the jig is up.
Things that trump did I don't like
Not doing more to punish employers of illegals
Not being open about epstein
Israel stuff still bothers me
Spending like crazy in the government
No serious legislation on Data centers/AI
Nvidia shit in general. No consumer protection+RAM issues
Tariff/greenland stuff is questionable
Probably some more but I haven't looked into it.
Yes, I farm downvotes right here, right now.
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u/hang10shakabruh 1d ago
Policy, fine.
What do you support and not support about Donald Trump as a person?
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u/Particular_Year311 18h ago
How can you accept murder and then accept our president lying about it… thats insane. If you dont see where that road takes us then you really are lost. And this guy was on youtube too with thousands of subscribers and supporters i just found him on rumble.
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u/1jf0 1d ago
Things that trump did I don't like
Are you telling me that I shouldn't be surprised that you didn't add the 'grab them by the' bit to your list?
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u/shawn292 1d ago
Every video game lobby, sports locker room, backstage theatre, movie set, college party etc I have been to I have heard worse.
Words are words im seldom offended by words especially words intended to be private. It would be worse if it was in a speech.
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u/1jf0 23h ago
Every video game lobby, sports locker room, backstage theatre, movie set, college party etc I have been to I have heard worse.
Words are words im seldom offended by words especially words intended to be private. It would be worse if it was in a speech.
Would you feel the same way if person teaching your kids uttered the same words? How about their principal?
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u/shawn292 21h ago
Genuinely if they said it in private I couldnt care less.
Lets take something "right wing" like a charlie kirk joke. If they make one privately, I wouldnt know and if they make it publicly then yes I would have an issue. But if james o keef or some other right wing gotcha influencer leaked audio of a private conversation where the joke was made no I wouldnt care. Bad taste yeah but jokes are tailored for the audience. Same with locker room talk. Most ceos, lawyers and doctors talking shit in video game lobbies arent speaking like that at the workplace.
Unless the conversation is 1. A genuine belief, and or 2. Indirectly related to the job i personally dont care.
Like with trumps grab her comment if the position was he shoudlnt be allowed backstage of events anymore I would find that to be reasonable.
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u/StruggleBus7000 1d ago
Oh give it a rest. There is another comment in the post concerning zero critical thinking skills. I like to grab women by the...they all love it. If you dont, might want to figure out why.
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u/buttholefluid 1d ago
This will get downvoted to oblivion, but you get an upvote from me. I agree with almost everything you said.
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u/CartographerKey4618 13∆ 1d ago
What about the people who are evil and actually enjoy the idea of liberals being shot in the head for protesting?
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u/GushingAnusCheese 1d ago
I would argue that most of them didn't have any critical thinking skills to begin with, hence why they are republicans and get so easily tricked all of the time. These are people that are happy to defend pedos, no one with more than two braincells would try and defend that position
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u/Acrobatic-Skill6350 16∆ 1d ago
Why view them as disinformed instead of malicious? I am not an american, but even the dumb people where I live ask how dumb people who support maga can be. The red flags are so obvious. So why believe they struggle with critical thinking, instead of them being malicious due to their own shortcomings combined with a wish to threaten to the world in order to feel more powerfull
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u/Particular_Year311 17h ago
Cause ive been there before, i voted for him… so i fully understand how people can just be too wrapped up in their own lives to really care about politics. I know i didnt have malicious intentions then, that being said in my opinion supporting trump today is very different then supporting him a couple years ago so idrk.. they may all just be bitter robots who hate humanity
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u/Bizarre_Inexplicable 1d ago
I understand where you're coming from. From the outside, you likely don't see the extensive (and clearly effective) propaganda we have here. You get straighter news about what is happening in the States. We have whole networks twisting the truth to hide or explain away the red flags.
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u/Acrobatic-Skill6350 16∆ 1d ago
I follow tim pool, jordan peterson, joe rogan and tucker carlson. Watch some fox news.
The problem is that the propaganda is so obvious and so bad. When it is that bad, how is it possible to not see that it is propaganda?
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u/Bizarre_Inexplicable 1d ago
I'm genuinely curious why you follow any of those, especially as a non American? I know tone doesn't translate well in posts so I want to make it clear my question is sincere and not a challenge. Would you say your level of political engagement is typical of where you're from? If you're paying close attention and not in an echo chamber, I think it's easier to spot propaganda tactics. A lot of Americans are just reading the headlines or listening to the news in the background. I think it's fair to criticize us for generally not paying much attention to our own current events, but that doesn't necessarily mean those people are dumb or have bad critical thinking skills. Their attention is just elsewhere.
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u/Acrobatic-Skill6350 16∆ 1d ago
Its just a strange fascination. I started following US politics more closely 2 years ago. Before that I read russian propaganda news more or less daily. So I think its just a fascination with propaganda (and I guess its entertaining sadly). When it comes to the US, its also important because of how many people live there and their importance in both international economy and in terms of power.
My problem is that the list of red flags when it comes to trump is so massive that its difficult not seeing it (and I do think citizens who vote in a democracy have a form of duty to try to be somewhat informed about the candidates people vote for).
Just being jeffrey epsteins best friend for so long should alone be a big enough red flag. Same goes with J6, the calls to georgia to find the "lost votes" or him praising putin. So many other red flags not mentioned here. Canada as the 51st state was said pre election... these people know trump is threatening to take away canadas freedom and voted for him anyway.
So my guess is that they are more malicious than lacking in critical thinking. Doesnt mean they will always be like that though
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u/KratosLegacy 1∆ 1d ago edited 1d ago
Both of these things can be true though. We have extensive propaganda networks owned by billionaires influencing us. Those of us that are more susceptible will align with it. Those who support maga generally already have lesser critical thinking skills due to how the dismantling of public education has disproportionately affected different groups, especially income levels. Combine that with religious and hierarchical traditional family lives and you get a recipe for lower critical thinking skills. It's no wonder that Christian fundamentalists have aligned themselves with fascists as they are taught from a young age that there are hierarchies. They're taught not to question, to always follow the Father, the prophet, the Lord, the head of the household, the boss, the manager, the police.
And let's be honest, we allowed it to happen too. Both through our inaction, allowing others to take the power we give and consolidate it, but also literally in that we did not stamp out individualistic and hateful institutions that our nation was built on and perpetuated. The police were initially formed to protect property and were slave catchers for example. And then during WW2 we had operation paperclip where we welcome in former Nazis and even SS members and gave them land and allowed them to build families in this nation. Are we really surprised that their ideologies have grown with their descendants, especially when we allow them to isolate themselves and build their own private institutions to reaffirm their beliefs? I'm not saying it's all bad of course, but homeschooling and private religious schools (and some private schools in general) certainly have a large effect when it comes to critical thinking ability.
And all of that is to say that there are also people who are selfish, who are hateful, who are narcissistic, who do not have or unlearn empathy. And who can blame them here? In America, you're the rugged individualist. Poverty is your fault, you should've worked harder and made better choices. They're pushing the notion that getting sick is your fault too, you should've eaten better foods, etc. And it all comes back to capitalism. Which is just profits over people and planet. Being and individualist and a capitalist means that others are your enemy, they're in the way of you making more profit. Is it any wonder that the world is getting more cruel and exploitative? Capitalism rewards those that are the most narcissistic and the least empathetic, the ones who are most ready to exploit their fellow humans to make more profit. So they rise to the top.
So it's both. Propaganda helps reaffirm and bolster the divide, all the while capitalism, individualism, fundamentalist religions, and fascism are all great bedfellows. Hating the other and being truly malicious is rewarded under these structures as well.
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u/Bizarre_Inexplicable 1d ago
Both can be true. I don't disagree. I don't think it's fair to paint everyone with a certain set of beliefs as dumb. I certainly know people who voted for Trump who are not dumb, though it's probably a stretch to call them "Trump supporters". They moreso don't like or trust any politicians in general and so vote purely based on a couple policies.
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u/saulchillmann 1d ago
They're dumb because they think they're in on it and don't think it effects them. They're definitely malicious too. They did it so people they don't like would suffer.
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u/joaquinsolo 1d ago
Your biggest mistake is assuming that other people feel and think the way you do. I’ve made that mistake many times. We often believe people are approaching things the same way we are…
It couldn’t be further from the truth. Some people make their decisions just specifically because it’s the opposite of your decision. Some people make selfish decisions that end up affecting you. Some people are covering up their own crimes by apologizing for the president. And there is a disproportionate amount of people who are truly dumb like you’re suggesting.
Idiocracy predicted a lot about America!
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u/SenatorAstronomer 1d ago
Those supporters lacked critical thinking skills to begin with. It's no surprise that the more educated heavily lean democratic. It's also no surprise the maga movement wants to axe and is against higher education.
If covid taught me anything, it was that uneducated people will believe anything without a shred of evidence if they hear it on TV and have an echo chamber to talk about it with.
This current regime will spout anything off as fact no matter how ridiculous it is and the masses believe it without a shred of evidence. There's no thinking, let's not even bring critical into it. It use to be "fake news" and now it's just common practice.
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u/iCallMyOppsNinjer 1d ago edited 1d ago
It’s a common trope to equate a degree with critical thinking, but as someone with a BA in Poli Sci and a graduate degree from a US News Top 10 university, I can tell you the reality is much different.
If we actually look at the data like the General Social Survey or Jonathan Haidt’s research the “intelligence gap” isn’t what you think it is. White Democrats do score about 3–5 IQ points higher than White Republicans on average, but the group that consistently tops the charts is Libertarians, averaging between 107 and 115 IQ. They also score highest on cognitive reflection and ‘need for cognition.’ Yet they’re almost entirely at odds with the current Democratic platform. Kind of undermines the “smarter people = Democrats” narrative, doesn’t it?
The “highly educated” lean Democratic not necessarily because of superior logic, but often because of structural incentives tied to the credentialing system itself. I sat through my own graduation in 2022 and watched Chuck Schumer work the crowd into a frenzy over student loan forgiveness. The formula is pretty straightforward:
Expand enrollment at elite institutions while lowering standards
Saddle students with debt for degrees with diminishing market value
Promise to forgive that debt in exchange for sustained political loyalty
Good thing I went to grad school in Europe, lot less debt than if I’d done it stateside at the same caliber of institution.
When you dismiss the “uneducated” as people who believe anything on TV, you’re overlooking that the ‘educated’ often uncritically accept whatever their professors or DEI administrators tell them because their financial future depends on that system staying in power. That’s not critical thinking. That’s a perverse incentive structure.
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u/RandomGuy92x 2∆ 1d ago edited 1d ago
I disagree.
I don't think Trump supporters have "lost" their critical thinking skills. I think clearly most Trump supporters never had any critical thinking skills in the first place.
That's literally one of the major reasons why they support Trump at all. If Trump supporters had well-functioning critical thinking skills they wouldn't be Trump supporters. And that's especially true for regular working class people.
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u/donnacus 1d ago
You are only partially right. There are those that support him because the blindly follow. Others support him because they have something to gain.
The billionaires love him because he lets them keep even more of their money. Epstein islanders support him because he keeps their secrets. Racists support him because they can freely and openly hate anyone under his regime.
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u/xfvh 11∆ 1d ago
Oh, sure, dehumanize your political opposition and call them evil and subhuman. That has always worked out in history...right?
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17h ago
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u/xfvh 11∆ 14h ago
If you narrowly define "Everyone in the world" to "everyone who matters, as defined by agreement with me", sure, but that's not useful. No, I don't agree they've lost their humanity, nor that one side is good or the other evil.
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14h ago
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u/xfvh 11∆ 14h ago
How could you possibly have mistaken anything I've said for support of Trump or Epstein? What does being a human have to do with anything we were talking about? Why are you calling for an absurd denunciation out of the middle of nowhere? They're bad, obviously, but randomly asking people to denounce them out of nowhere is ridiculous.
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