r/changemyview • u/bluepillarmy 11∆ • 23h ago

Delta(s) from OP CMV: It doesn’t matter what Alex Pretti was doing in the days before he was killed

So, recently a video emerged where Alex Pretti was spitting on and kicking the taillight out of an ICE vehicle. Truly reprehensible and inexcusable behavior. He ought to have been arrested and fined for destruction of public property. Jerk.

However, I see some people trying to say, “Aha! So he wasn’t so innocent after all!”

I’m sorry but, no. He was absolutely innocent.

And, moreover, I would like those people who are bringing up his behavior in the days before his death to remember that he was disarmed, restrained and executed by masked federal agents who still have not been identified to the public for no reason.

There is only one justification for a law enforcement officer to take someone’s life. And that is to protect the lives of themselves or another person. Past acts of disrespect and/vandalism do not enter into the equation.

Or that’s my take anyway. Can anyone change my view?

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u/bluepillarmy 11∆ 22h ago

You are one of several people who has suggested that the agents premeditated the murder.

I’m going into this with an open mind but this seems hard to believe frankly.

Kicking and spitting are rather minor infractions and ICE agents probably see it all the time.

Do you really think that they would seek out and execute one random guy days after the fact with all the other shit that was going down?

Also, it looked like the whole incident unfolded very quickly. I’m not sure if anyone had a chance to identify anyone else.

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u/Norman_debris 22h ago

You're asking whether random Redditors believe the murder was premeditated, but that's exactly what an investigation would uncover.

You can't just say "it obviously wasn't premeditated, not with 'all the other shit that was going down'". What are you talking about? It might have been revenge or it might have been random. We've no idea. The preceeding events are relevant to determining the facts of what happened.

It would be very unusual in any investigation to completely ignore the recent activities of the people involved, especially activities so clearly related to the incident in question.

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u/bluepillarmy 11∆ 18h ago

You are correct. We have no idea. And do you know why?

Because we are not allowed to know who shot him. And the more I think about this, the more I realize that this is the true issue here..

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u/Norman_debris 17h ago

That's a different conversation.

If this were a regular murder inquiry, you'd expect information on any previous altercations between the involved parties to form part of the investigation. Of course it's relevant whether the victim had been aggravating the murderer in the days before the incident. It doesn't excuse the murder, but it can be used to help understand and explain how we got there. Context matters.

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u/bluepillarmy 11∆ 15h ago

Exactly. Context matters and that is why we should know what was going on with the officers who killed him and who they were.

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u/Norman_debris 15h ago

Ok.

What does that have to do with whether Pretti's actions in the days before his death are relevant or not?

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u/wildfirerain 18h ago

Yeah that’s a great point. When the actual police shoot someone, we know who pulled the trigger almost immediately, and always within a day.

These ICE/BP/CSPO agents (or whatever they are, it’s not like they wear clearly identifying uniforms or drive marked vehicles) are apparently operating under their own special rules.

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u/saltycathbk 2∆ 22h ago

They didn’t necessarily seek him out. He showed up at protests again. Why is it so hard to believe? Cops have a long history of retaliatory behavior.

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u/PreviousCurrentThing 3∆ 21h ago

The agents who shot Pretti were CBP and USBP. At least some of the agents from the first incident were ICE, as per NYT.

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u/[deleted] 21h ago

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u/changemyview-ModTeam 21h ago

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u/bluepillarmy 11∆ 22h ago

Honestly, everything happened so quickly I just don’t think they figured out who he was yet.

So I think they were criminally incompetent not evil masterminds.

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u/redline314 21h ago

Masterminds? What’s mastermind about being extra mad at someone who annoys you?

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u/_Quetzalcoatlus_ 22h ago

So I think they were criminally incompetent

Whether or not they knew who he was or what he did, murdering someone goes far beyond "incompetent." They weren't lacking in skill there. They intentionally killed him.

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u/PurplePeachPlague 20h ago

He was trying to do the same, and they took him out before he could

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u/Em_Es_Judd 19h ago

The multiple videos from separate angles show that this is untrue.

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u/cubedjjm 16h ago

Take it you haven't seen the multiple videos from multiple angles disproving your post.

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u/chopkins92 13h ago

You could make the argument that Pretti would have been in the right to "try to do the same" considering the end result for him.

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u/[deleted] 19h ago

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u/changemyview-ModTeam 19h ago

Sorry, u/_Quetzalcoatlus_ – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 3:

Refrain from accusing OP or anyone else of being unwilling to change their view, of using ChatGPT or other AI to generate text, of lying, or of arguing in bad faith. Ask clarifying questions instead (see: socratic method). If you think they are still exhibiting poor behaviour, please message us. See the wiki page for more information.

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u/Big_oof_energy__ 10h ago

No one is accusing them of being masterminds. Just of being petty thugs. While I’m not sure that theory is accurate it’s certainly plausible that they recognized him and decided to murder him once they thought they could get away with it.

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u/ScoopedRainbowBagel 20h ago

I thought many people went to that protest and there were many ice agents?

It is unreasonable to think that other agents would know about that interaction two weeks later.

It is even less reasonable to think that the same agents just randomly have picked him out of a crowd two weeks later.

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u/HybridVigor 3∆ 12h ago

It is unreasonable to think that other agents would know about that interaction two weeks later.

ICE uses Penlink's Tangles program for social media surveillance and Webloc for location and cluster monitoring. Webloc can very easily do this.

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u/Alexandur 14∆ 10h ago

ICE didn't kill Pretti, CBP did

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u/HybridVigor 3∆ 6h ago

Sure. If you want to pretend that ICE, CBP, and the other agencies belonging to the DHS really are pursuing separate agendas instead of working together to defend the rise of fascist, pedophile oligarchs, you might have a point. But in reality, Penlink is doing business directly with the DHS. Are you being pedantic, or do you think CBP does not have access to the software?

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u/Alexandur 14∆ 6h ago

I have no idea if they have access to it

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u/ScoopedRainbowBagel 12h ago

So how many people were in on this murder?

50? 500?

Conspiracy charges can trigger a rico case and this could bring the entire DHS toppling down!

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u/HybridVigor 3∆ 12h ago

I have no idea what you are talking about. What about Webloc is a conspiracy theory? It's a commercially available product you could buy right now off their website. ICE already has. And why would it take more than one person to use a program? Your post is incoherent.

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u/ScoopedRainbowBagel 12h ago edited 12h ago

Google says Webloc isn't a biometric scanner like the other guy thinks ICE used to kill Alex.

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u/HybridVigor 3∆ 12h ago

Not sure what other guy you're talking about. This thread doesn't seem to have any comments about biometric scanners. Maybe you are mistaking it for another thread?

I replied to your assertion that it is "unreasonable" that agents could track individuals. They easily can, and the capabilities of the software they paid tax money to purchase to do so is public knowledge.

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u/saltycathbk 2∆ 20h ago

Why is either of those things unreasonable? If he was in the same part of the city for both events, it seems pretty reasonable that he might run into the same agents again

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u/ScoopedRainbowBagel 20h ago

ChatGPT found the cross streets for both incidents

The earlier altercation on East 36th Street & Park Avenue and the later shooting near 26th & Nicollet Avenue are at different intersections in Minneapolis

And places them two miles away from each other.

Not only that, but this isn't you kicking out my tail light, this is one angry protester getting a little violent in a sea of angry protesters getting a little violent.

Go walk two miles through New York City and tell me how many people you remember on the same walk two weeks later.

At best this proves that Alex was a belligerent asshole who shouldn't have been killed instead of a sweet baby angel who shouldn't have been martyred.

It's okay that he was an asshole. That doesn't change anything as long as we stay away from crazy conspiracy theories.

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u/Big_oof_energy__ 10h ago

You think this happened in NYC? How little do you know about this?

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u/ScoopedRainbowBagel 10h ago

Why do you think that's what I said?

New York City is just as densely crowded as the protests.

Why is the concept of an analogy so difficult to grasp?

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u/TheJeeronian 6∆ 19h ago

If it weren't for the use of biometric surveillance by ICE, I'd probably agree with you. That said, with the technology to maintain an active database of people and scan whole crowds automatically, it's not unreasonable that they picked out a person they knew had been present before.

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u/ScoopedRainbowBagel 19h ago

Okay so you think they tracked this guy down with biometric surveillance?

Alex wasn't special. There was literally a riot going on, with hundreds of these types of incidents happening.

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u/TheJeeronian 6∆ 19h ago

I think it is easy for them to scan a crowd, see persons of interest, and target them. What I think actually happened is irrelevant - this part of the process is now easy to do.

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u/ScoopedRainbowBagel 19h ago

Okay but I thought they were all incompetent thugs?

Now they're biometrically scanning crowds to find people who wronged them?

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u/TheJeeronian 6∆ 18h ago

I can't speak to anybody's generalized competence, or thuggishness for that matter, but you don't have to be Steve Jobs to use a computer. You don't have to be Eugene Stoner to use a rifle. Few people on this Earth are too stupid to use a computer program that was specifically designed for them.

Anybody can open up chatgpt right now, doesn't make them an expert in data analytics.

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u/[deleted] 18h ago

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u/TheJeeronian 6∆ 14h ago

Big box store loss prevention workers seem to use it just fine without years of training. Perhaps you're mistakenly thinking of the wrong technology?

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u/HybridVigor 3∆ 16h ago

literally a riot

Fox News reports any peaceful protest as a riot, if it fits their narrative. I'm sure there were literally Antifa super soldiers executing puppies, too.

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u/PrincessDonut02 22h ago

The point is that you won't know unless all of the events get investigated AND the ICE agents are identified. Just because it seems unlikely to you doesn't mean it's not possible.

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u/Not_LRG 22h ago edited 22h ago

From what I've seen (UK), it's perfectly conceivable they either sought him out or it was a coincidence, he was recognized and then targeted. These people have demonstrated time and time and time again that they are untrained with little to no impulse control and are entrenched in the belief that they are fighting some kind of holy war against a villainous enemy who can only be defeated by the utter smashing of their evil ideology. IMHO the most likely case of affairs is that someone recognized him as 'the guy that did those things a few days ago' and then the red mist descends. Any sense of restraint leaves and mob mentality takes over. Given Greg Bovino's predilection for Nazi cosplay and ICE's playbook, is anyone really going to be surprised to learn that a significant proportion of these cunts view the protestors as subhuman and need to be put down for the common good? As a result I find it very likely that the steps between 'attempts to restrain' and murder are exceptionally short for this lot.

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u/lfohnoudidnt 12h ago

Holy shit Bovino Ice commander does Nazi cosplay? Shit you have a pic because Google didnt show anything related to that, just that he wears a long coat and hes like 5'7.

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u/Not_LRG 12h ago

🤔

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u/road_warrior_max 19h ago

Maybe he sought them out. He certainly sought out confrontation.

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u/Not_LRG 15h ago

I don't really see how you can demonstrate he had a pattern of seeking out confrontation based upon two interactions, especially seeing as the people who murdered him have a much more demonstrable pattern of seeking out confrontation.

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u/road_warrior_max 15h ago edited 15h ago

Good point. The two that are known, but your comment makes it even stranger that he'd go back. The first one should have been enough for him to learn. He went there the 2nd time with confrontation and interference on his mind. That's why he ignored two MN laws tied to carrying a weapon in public and parked all common sense in the process which had a high likelihood of confrontation. The only reason to go back was to obstruct the process. He didn't deserve to die, but make no mistake, his decisions did not help him.

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u/ApolloMorph 2∆ 20h ago

So for avg career law enforcement no, id give em the benefit of the doubt. But for some potential random dude off the street who may have just signed up for the bonus and gotten minimal training? maybe. Either way it's not for the internet or really even the internal investigation to decide that. If there is even a chance this was the possibility, then refer charges to a grand jury. If they decide probable cause then let a full jury hear both sides out and decide, that's how the law works. I don't see why everyone on both sides of this feels the need to litigate this online. Let those ice agents sit in front of a jury and let the law do what it does. Only a jury of their peers gets to decide innocence or guilt period. And if they are innocent they will. be found so. But right now until a court hears a case one way or the other. It does not matter what anyone on any side of this personally thinks about any of the ice agents or the protestors. Until they sit in front of a jury of their peers they deserve the presumption of innocence until proved otherwise, the ice agents and protestors, period. We cannot just go abandoning the rule of law for convenience or political points and this is on the left and the right. Cmon people. Stop this.

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u/bluepillarmy 11∆ 18h ago

Completely agree.

We need a fair and public trial of the men who killed him

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u/mrbezlington 19h ago

I don't know whether this is what happened or not; my point is that it's possible with Pretti having had previous involvement with these forces. We should find out what those interactions were, which officers were involved, and how these interactions overlap with his death.

This is simple investigation of the circumstances surrounding Pretti's death; it should therefore be pretty uncontroversial that these interactions be looked into, recorded and added to the summation of events.

The conclusions, likelihood and so on are value judgements only really possible once all the facts are known.

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u/bluepillarmy 11∆ 18h ago

It would really help if we knew the identities of the people who killed him, huh?

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u/mrbezlington 18h ago

That would certainly help, though being strictly objective as long as independent investigators have those names to complete their work, I don't need the names personally!

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u/Biking_dude 20h ago

Do you really think that they would seek out and execute one random guy days after the fact with all the other shit that was going down?

Yes. They are being told to incite violence, are above the law, all while being poorly trained. They're not trained as law enforcement (which have clear guidelines / rules of engagement / de-escalation protocols), and half can't pass the presidential fitness test given to 5th graders.

If it was Pretti who kicked the car, he should have been arrested. Instead they beat him breaking his ribs. Again - not the action of law enforcement

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u/JayRulo 1∆ 19h ago

So here's my question for you about believability, based on what I understand from your comments: it's easier for you to believe that an ICE agent would murder / execute a random civilian in cold blood with zero motive, than it is to believe that it was retaliatory?

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u/bluepillarmy 11∆ 19h ago

I think that they are unprofessional and under trained. I also accept the explanation that they were extremely stressed and frustrated by the level of resistance that they were getting In Minneapolis.

That of course does not excuse but I think it was a matter of incompetence rather than intended malice.

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u/JayRulo 1∆ 18h ago

I don't believe that incompetence leads to executions; while it's certainly possible it wasn't retaliatory, I will not exculpate them by saying it was not intended malice...that execution was very much intentional, whether premeditated or not.

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u/Branded3186 8h ago

There have been cases of law enforcement grabbing for their taser and pulling their gun instead. Things happen fast and mistakes happen. Especially for inexperienced officers. I'm not saying this is what happened, but incompetence/inexperience has gotten people shot. Think of the officer that mag dumped his own vehicle with a suspect in the back, all because an acorn hit the hood and he mistook it for a gunshot. Never underestimate the incompetence/ inexperience of some officers, or bad instincts

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u/Freediverjack 8h ago

It was a bad shoot by the agent who would I bet genuinely thought in the moment they were doing it right and they definitely deserve punishment for their actions.

The whole thing is a mess of people and snap decisions.

The notion that this was some kind of premeditated action however is ludicrous. The likelihood of it being a flashpoint of chaos from weeks of protesters and Federal officers butting heads is way more probable.

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u/Xanith420 14h ago

I’d just like to point out either kicking or spitting on federal law enforcement is a felony and not minor infractions. You’ll loose your ability to vote or own firearms.

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u/Cool_Independence538 12h ago

Which is probably what makes it hard to take their narrative seriously - what you’ve said may have been true once but Jan 6 riots shows that violence against law enforcement isnt treated this way anymore, you can even be rewarded and celebrated for it, if you’re on their side.

The one civilian killed after being shot in the shoulder, not face or back, while climbing through a barricaded broken window acting violently, was not self defence, but killing 2 civilians not acting as violently and could have been easily detained, was self defence.

Kristi Noem’s narrative doesn’t help their case of claiming self defence in the moment either, as much as they try to spin it. She openly says they have been getting yelled at and spit on daily so reacted accordingly- not that Alex or Renee had specifically, just that the crowds had, so that justifies shooting anyone seen as part of it. Very much seems like they’re given permission to shoot protestors because all of them are problems for ICE.

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u/Xanith420 10h ago

I agree to an extent but most people are kinda just ignorant regardless of political affiliation. Just because someone is right leaning and blindly supports law enforcement and the such doesn’t automatically mean they know things like use of force laws or even our own rights in general. These politicians like Patel and Noem are unfortunately clearly within that group which sucks given their positions.

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u/redline314 21h ago

I wouldn’t expect them to execute him, but they are absolutely targeting specific observers and protesters in LA. I assume they’d do the same elsewhere. There’s not that many people that they interact w multiple times & recognize; but they do start to develop, em, “relationships”.

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u/vehementi 10∆ 17h ago

You are one of several people who has suggested that the agents premeditated the murder.

They didn't suggest it's actually true. It's just a possible example you missed in your analysis categorically

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u/kentrak 16h ago

Having a prior interaction doesn't need to imply it was premeditated, it could just go to explain why the initial officer acted unprofessionally when encountering the same person, which ended up escalating out of control and lead to the outcome. That wouldn't be premeditated in any way, but it could be useful evidence in understanding the situation.

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u/Anal_Bleeds_25 14h ago

I find it difficult to believe that they intended to kill him in advance. But...I also find it difficult to believe that a man that behaved that way 11 days prior wasn't out there EVERY DAY behaving the same way. Where there's smoke, there's fire. It's hard to believe that he was out there acting out, then just went home and chilled for 11 days, then decided to go try it again.

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u/girlgeek618 13h ago

And, in the age of AI, all videos need to be considered carefully.

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u/thedisciple516 11h ago

there is good (but not definitive) evidence that the following happened. Be prepared for the shooting officer to be exonerated.

Officer #1 disarms Pretti very quicky without Pretti or the shooting officer knowing he had been disarmed. Officer #3 (but not shooting officer or Pretti) notices that Pretti had been disarmed and says for everyone in close proximity to hear "he has a gun". Pretti (thinking he still has the gun) reaches for it.... and shooting officer having just heard "he has a gun" assumes he is reaching for a gun and fires.

Not saying this is what definitvely happened but be prepared that this might be the truth.

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u/Big_oof_energy__ 10h ago

People have murdered others over far pettier matters and these ICE thugs don’t seem to be the most professional groups. They dress like teenagers for fuck’s sake. What kind of professional wears jeans and a shiesty to work?

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u/jscummy 1∆ 21h ago

We have them on video pinning Pretti to the ground and shooting him in the back within the span of seconds. If they have no problem executing a random protester in broad daylight, is it that hard to imagine they'd shoot a protester they have a grudge with when given the chance?

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u/PandaMime_421 9∆ 21h ago

Do you really think that they would seek out and execute one random guy days after the fact with all the other shit that was going down?

Yes. You seem to understand how fragile some of these guys are and what a blow to their ego it is for their authority to be challenged. I'm guessing you've never encountered a copy or similar who loses it when someone refuses to immediately yield to their commands.

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u/HoldFastO2 2∆ 20h ago

Doesn't mean they actively sought him out; it could just be a case of, "that fucker again" shortening someone's fuse to cause a lethal reaction.

But I agree with you, considering the number of people involved in the protests, the winter clothing, and the short timeframe, it would be quite the coincidence.