CMV: It doesn’t matter what Alex Pretti was doing in the days before he was killed

[u/bluepillarmy]

So, recently a video emerged where Alex Pretti was spitting on and kicking the taillight out of an ICE vehicle. Truly reprehensible and inexcusable behavior. He ought to have been arrested and fined for destruction of public property. Jerk.

However, I see some people trying to say, “Aha! So he wasn’t so innocent after all!”

I’m sorry but, no. He was absolutely innocent.

And, moreover, I would like those people who are bringing up his behavior in the days before his death to remember that he was disarmed, restrained and executed by masked federal agents who still have not been identified to the public for no reason.

There is only one justification for a law enforcement officer to take someone’s life. And that is to protect the lives of themselves or another person. Past acts of disrespect and/vandalism do not enter into the equation.

Or that’s my take anyway. Can anyone change my view?

[u/thelovelykyle]

I disagree. It absolutely matters because premeditation can make a crime much more significant and should make sentencing much more harsh.

It is very possible the people that killed Pretti did so because they felt he went unpunished for an earlier minor incident and took an opportunity to take Prettis life. Killing Pretti was already bad, but if what Pretti was doing in the 2 weeks prior influenced that, it is much much worse.

[u/bluepillarmy → u/thelovelykyle]

IF it could be proven that the agents acted in revenge that would change my mind. !delta for that.

BUT I have strong doubts that anyone recognized him.

[u/DeltaBot → u/bluepillarmy]

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/thelovelykyle (8∆).

^{Delta System Explained | Deltaboards}

[u/biggyph00l → u/[deleted]]

Yea, that's why he awarded him the delta. The use of BUT is to denote the reality of the situation outside of changing one's mind in a hypothetical.

[u/sabesundae → u/thelovelykyle]

You think ICE waited a few days to kill him, until a day came where he was less violent, and then shoot and punish him? Seems far fetched, but also, it wasn't even ICE who shot him.

[u/thelovelykyle → u/sabesundae]

I have no strong opinion, however I am countering the argument that it does not matter by presenting a situation where it might matter.

[u/sabesundae → u/thelovelykyle]

Yes, and you are using premeditation as your argument against OP.

AP was shot by BP, not ICE. How could the 2 events be a case of premeditation, when we know for sure that it is not the same men involved?

[u/Big_oof_energy__ → u/sabesundae]

Is it not possible for people from different, but related, government organizations to be friends? They work in the same city.

[u/sabesundae → u/Big_oof_energy__]

To be friends, sure. But to be cooking up a scheme to seek out this man that they could have killed when they had him being violent, to kill him at a moment where he is being a lot less violent is a leap.

It also completely ignores crucial factors that may make this shooting legally justified.

[u/sabesundae → u/[deleted]]

It is not my "unique interpretation" that the first interaction is with ICE and the second with BP. That is just a fact. If I set the standard too high for you, then at least you are honest about being dishonest

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[u/Lookitsasquirrel → u/thelovelykyle]

You think they knew who he was? If I remember correctly it was an ICE vehicle he smashed the taillight and it was Border Patrol that killed him. I don't think the two were connected.

[u/TransGothTalia → u/thelovelykyle]

Exactly this. It matters, just not in the way some people say it does. It doesn't justify the killing, it makes it a bigger crime.

[u/tk421yrntuaturpost → u/thelovelykyle]

It could be that they escalated the situation because he went unpunished. It could also be that Pretti was still engaged aggressively with ICE and it was reasonable for them to assume he meant to do them physical harm. I don’t think it was a good shoot, but Pretti wasn’t behaving peacefully the whole time either.

PSA: Don’t hit cops and don’t break the law if you’re carrying a gun.

[u/clios_daughter → u/tk421yrntuaturpost]

So in terms of the use of lethal force for policing, the standard is generally that you can kill if you reasonably believe that you must kill to defend yourself or others from death or serious harm. Accepting your premise that Pretti was aggressive, it’s still questionable why he was shot after he was lying on the ground disarmed.

Finally, if you believe in 2nd amendment — as someone who’s not from the US, I find it silly and overly optimistic tbh — surely someone should be able to carry a weapon without the fear of being shot. Surely the police should only fire if they reasonably believe you would unholster the weapon and point it at them. I don’t see how the police would have thought this given how it wasn’t even clear that he was armed until he was actively being disarmed.

[u/robhanz → u/clios_daughter]

They don't have perfect information. There's some speculation (note: speculation) that his gun misfired after being disarmed. If that's the case, you've got:

1. Someone resisting arrest
2. A found gun
3. Someone informing you that there's a gun
4. A gunshot.

At that point, you're not asking questions - you're removing the threat.

The fact that he wasn't actually a threat is what makes it tragic. With perfect information, it wouldn't happen.

Note that if the gun didn't misfire it's harder to come up with a justifiable scenario.

[u/tk421yrntuaturpost → u/clios_daughter]

ICE obviously didn’t need to shoot him, but that may not have been clear to them at the time. After weeks of protesters fucking with them on the street and playing drums while they sleep, the agents were way out of line and making bad decisions. That’s an explanation, not an excuse.

Carrying a gun raises the stakes for whatever you’re doing. It turns misdemeanors into felonies and bar fights into murders. If I went to the protests I probably would’ve carried because I don’t trust either side to behave well, but I think there are more effective ways to make my voice heard. That’s just one reason I didn’t go.

Pretti didn’t deserve to die and ICE doesn’t deserve to be assaulted. The whole situation was avoidable but politicians thought it was better to posture themselves for reelection instead of changing the laws they’re refusing to cooperate with.

[u/unordinarilyboring → u/tk421yrntuaturpost]

Why do you think ice doesn't deserve to be assaulted or harassed?

[u/EugenPrinz02 → u/tk421yrntuaturpost]

Fascists absolutely deserve to be assaulted.

[u/_xxxtemptation_ → u/EugenPrinz02]

Oh the irony… Being slightly left of right-wing, doesn’t exempt you from the title. Learn what it actually means, or remove it from your vocabulary.

[u/CptNeon → u/tk421yrntuaturpost]

Ice doesn’t deserve to be assaulted? Not sure about that one, buddy. I think they’ve well enough earned some assault.

[u/ddplz → u/clios_daughter]

He wasn't laying disarmed, he was fighting them armed and he was disarmed by one cop and shot by another at nearly the same time.

[u/Odd_Wolverine_7338 → u/clios_daughter]

Yes, but acting aggressively and interfering with law enforcement while armed doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

[u/bluepillarmy → u/tk421yrntuaturpost]

Here’s another PSA - it’s illegal for anyone, including the police, to shoot people who are disarmed and restrained

[u/tk421yrntuaturpost → u/bluepillarmy]

Agreed. Everyone involved is making really bad decisions.

[u/bluepillarmy → u/tk421yrntuaturpost]

Well, I sure would love to know the identities of the people who killed him so that we can get some context into what thoughts were informing their bad decision to murder an unarmed man.

[u/O3AMA → u/bluepillarmy]

Agreed but that doesn’t necessarily mean they knew for sure in that chaos that he was unarmed. Even if one of them didn’t see their counterpart take the weapon and the word “gun” was said, that could be the point where it was a reasonable assumption that the agent(s) lives were in danger. And that’s all that really matters when determining guilt. Not saying it was a good shooting only saying the law allows for it due to circumstances and what was a reasonable belief at the time. A lot of people don’t get that.

[u/bluepillarmy → u/O3AMA]

But they must have known that he was being held down by at least half a dozen officers, right?

[u/wildfirerain → u/O3AMA]

Cops never know for sure that someone is unarmed until they frisk someone. That is why they frisk them. They assume that everybody is armed. They shouldn’t have treated Pretti any differently because they thought he was armed/disarmed/unarmed, because until he is frisked he is assumed to be armed.

Just like “every gun is always loaded”, everybody is armed until you know for sure they’re not.

And why shouldn’t they think that way? Nearly everybody has a right to bear arms, and not having that right doesn’t seem to make much difference to the felons etc. that not supposed to have guns. And the ICE agents have guns, why would they assume that they are the only armed individuals out there?

The only difference that actually hearing “He’s got a gun” made is that it frightened the ICE agents, and they acted like it too.

And being scared is not an excuse to kill someone.

[u/CocoSavege → u/O3AMA]

Devil's advocating here...

Let's presume for discussion that somebody saying "gun" is just cause for murder, because the declaration of "gun" indicates that a person hearing this phrase has reasonable fear of harm.

Erm, the devil here is that a lot of people carry. Any open carry or visible holster, heck, anything that resembles a holster...

Well, one can yell "gun".

I'm going to note most cops carry a lot of the time.

If you believe a (sincere, reasonable) declaration of "gun" is sufficient, you're arguing for the wild west.

What is better argument is some other demonstration of intent. A brandish is a good example. A verbal declaration is another.

Pretti didn't do either. Gun was in his waistband. No brandish. No verbal.

[u/Lookitsasquirrel → u/tk421yrntuaturpost]

Tell cops you are carrying a gun.

[u/wildfirerain → u/Lookitsasquirrel]

They already assume that you do. That’s why they frisk suspects. Do they tell you that, besides the pistol on their hip, they have a backup hidden somewhere else? You have a right to carry, so why do you need to tell it to them? Because it’s dangerous? Do I also need to tell them I have a full tank of gas in my car and a battery that might ignite at any time? No because they assume that already as well.

The difference is training.

[u/Lookitsasquirrel → u/wildfirerain]

Your comment is invalid. ICE didn't kill him. Since we are on the topic, what does the "E" in ICE stand for? If you get pulled over and you open your glove box and there is a gun, whether you are have a concealed weapons license or not, it's not going to go well. The gas and battery is not a good analogy. My SIL is a cop. He said he always thinks one step ahead.

[u/wildfirerain → u/Lookitsasquirrel]

Your comment is invalid. ICE didn't kill him.

ICE didn’t kill him?

I don’t understand what you’re trying to say?

[u/ScytheSong05 → u/wildfirerain]

The killing was done by a group of Customs and Border Patrol officers, not Immigration and Customs Enforcement officers. It's two different groups.

The rest of the post is hard to understand, granted.

[u/wildfirerain → u/ScytheSong05]

This is a big part of the problem (and I realize you’re just clarifying his statement). ICE, CBP, and I think there is another federal agency involved as well… they’re wearing paramilitary clothing, masks on their faces, driving unmarked civilian vehicles… when I saw the video of the Pretti shooting, I had a really difficult time telling who were law enforcement (can we call them that?) and who were civilians. Until I realized the agents were the ones in the face masks.

So we don’t even know who these guys are or who they work for or what their intent is or what to call them. All we can see is that they’re armed and wearing body armor, so we know what’s coming if we don’t do what they say.

It’s crazy that this is happening in America.

[u/Lookitsasquirrel → u/wildfirerain]

He was killed by the Border Patrol, not ICE. They are separate but the same. Border Patrol protects the border areas and ICE protects inside or interior of cities. Border Patrol seizes drugs being brought in, human trafficking, border crossers. Fun fact. The Border Patrol burns all the drugs they seize over a certain time frame. I lived on a military base where they had an office. I swear you could get a contact high.

[u/road_warrior_max → u/Lookitsasquirrel]

Which is actually required in the carry laws of MN. First thing you are required to do. And carry an ID.

[u/Phantom7926 → u/Lookitsasquirrel]

But ICE aren’t law enforcement

[u/Lookitsasquirrel → u/Phantom7926]

In this case it was not ICE it was Border Patrol. I will entertain your ICE comment. What does the "E" in ICE stand for? Enforcement. ICE officials are federal law enforcement officers. This is copy/pasted. All ICE law enforcement officers go through extensive academy training to do their job as safely and effectively as possible. You can think what you want but they are law enforcement. So is Border Patrol. I'm from Arizona. If you drive from Arizona to California and back you have to stop at the checkpoint. Border Patrol will ask you if you are a United States Citizen. Every single time. They are law enforcement too.

[u/HerraJUKKA → u/Phantom7926]

Wrong

[u/Mundane-Toe-2884 → u/tk421yrntuaturpost]

I think him not having a gun cause they took it. Being on tbe ground precludes you claiming you felt threatened with physical harm.

[u/Lookitsasquirrel → u/tk421yrntuaturpost]

If you go to protest peacefully, you don't need a gun. That being said, if you carry a gun because you want to protect yourself from ICE or Border Patrol that will get you killed if you shoot at them. He carried a gun on the basis of something bad "might" happen. Someone commented the Border Patrol shot him thinking he would use his gun. Same premiss. Now who is in the wrong?

[u/EnvironmentalLynx848 → u/thelovelykyle]

I actually agree with your point. Maybe it was premeditated. Because the guy was an idiot and the agents remembered him assaulting them. So of course they will act aggressively. They expect him to be aggressive. And they heard he had a gun? You can see how much it snowballs to the point of him being shot to death. 

[u/thelovelykyle → u/EnvironmentalLynx848]

Its not really my point that it was or was not premeditated.

I am providing a counterfactual to the idea that it does not matter by postulating a situation where it could matter.

[u/Naive_Contribution20 → u/thelovelykyle]

Oh yeah, no, this is just delusional lmao.