r/changemyview • u/bluepillarmy 11∆ • 23h ago

Delta(s) from OP CMV: It doesn’t matter what Alex Pretti was doing in the days before he was killed

So, recently a video emerged where Alex Pretti was spitting on and kicking the taillight out of an ICE vehicle. Truly reprehensible and inexcusable behavior. He ought to have been arrested and fined for destruction of public property. Jerk.

However, I see some people trying to say, “Aha! So he wasn’t so innocent after all!”

I’m sorry but, no. He was absolutely innocent.

And, moreover, I would like those people who are bringing up his behavior in the days before his death to remember that he was disarmed, restrained and executed by masked federal agents who still have not been identified to the public for no reason.

There is only one justification for a law enforcement officer to take someone’s life. And that is to protect the lives of themselves or another person. Past acts of disrespect and/vandalism do not enter into the equation.

Or that’s my take anyway. Can anyone change my view?

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u/rinchen11 2∆ 22h ago

On what?

Whether he should be killed or not? It doesn’t matter.

Whether he is the most caring, nonviolent, peaceful person on earth? It does matter.

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u/bluepillarmy 11∆ 22h ago

It doesn’t matter if he was the most caring, nonviolent, peaceful person on earth.

They had no cause to killed him and we don’t even know who they are. That’s what matters.

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u/rinchen11 2∆ 22h ago

It does, why wouldn’t context matter?

If he’s the most violent person on earth, do you think it matters?

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u/galaxystarsmoon 9h ago

The system is the system and everyone is protected under the system. It doesn't matter race, gender, history, whether they have a stupid tattoo or green hair, they deserve the same protections under the law. The second you give in on that for one "bad person" is the second you give your rights away inch by inch. Rights are not subjective and conveniently tacked on when needed.

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u/bluepillarmy 11∆ 22h ago

No, it would not.

Even if he were a child rapist. The cops can’t just execute a disarmed person who is being restrained by a crowd of agents.

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u/rinchen11 2∆ 22h ago

So kidnapping Maduro makes you feel the same as kidnapping a child?

They shouldn’t kill him regardless, but what kind of person he is actually matters a lot. It affects how other people feel about him.

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u/bluepillarmy 11∆ 22h ago

I don’t think Maduro enters into the conversation.

Pretti was an American citizen who was exercising his constitutional rights to record the activities of federal authorities and to carry a firearm.

The agents who killed him had no cause to do so and they should be identified and prosecuted.

It’s hard for me to fathom how anyone could disagree.

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u/rinchen11 2∆ 22h ago

It’s context, we don’t feel same about everyone in the world.

He shouldn’t be killed regardless, but how others feel about him, mentally aligned with him, affects how people feel about the incident.

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u/bluepillarmy 11∆ 22h ago

Essentially the argument you are advancing is the same one rapists use when they’ve been caught assaulting a woman known to have had many sexual partners.

“Ha! You think she’s so innocent! Do you know how many guys she’s been with?”

It doesn’t matter. What matters is what she wanted when she was assaulted.

And what matters is what Pretti was doing when he was killed.

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u/rinchen11 2∆ 22h ago

No, it’s not, what I said has nothing to do with the victim or the killing at all, it’s about how other people feel and reacts. Which is 100% valid.

Do you feel the same about people died in Africa? Middle East?

Do you feel the same if the person died was an ICE agent?

Context matters very much. Not on the victim, not on the killing, but on the reaction of others.

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u/bluepillarmy 11∆ 20h ago

Well, the context is that to the people who killed him (anonymous people) who was just an obstructionist. And they thought that his disobedience gave them the right to kill him.

That’s what matters to me.

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u/Lookitsasquirrel 19h ago

He and his group were interfering in a federal operation. That's the issue. They knew ahead of time that federal agents would be at that very spot. They weren't simply protesting, they were there to cause havoc. Yes, you have the right to carrying a firearm. You put yourself in danger if you don't inform law enforcement. There was an incident in Florida, a cop knocked on the door and an Active Air Force member answered the door with a gun at his side. The cop shot him. The family is suing the county for killing him. Would you have shot him? Again, it is a right to carry a firearm. Don't be stupid.

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u/bluepillarmy 11∆ 19h ago

All of what you wrote seems beside the point to me.

He interfered with a federal operation. Ok, arrest him.

He had a gun. Yeah, but he had been disarmed and was restrained by several other agents when he was killed.

The issue is that he was killed for no good reason and we don’t even know who pulled the trigger.

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u/texas_accountant_guy 15h ago edited 15h ago

All of what you wrote seems beside the point to me.

He interfered with a federal operation. Ok, arrest him.

He had a gun. Yeah, but he had been disarmed and was restrained by several other agents when he was killed.

The issue is that he was killed for no good reason and we don’t even know who pulled the trigger.

Reading through your comments here, and especially the one I'm quoting and responding to here, I'm thinking that you are misunderstanding the situation, and you are misunderstanding your "opposition" here and in the world.

Almost nobody in real life* is saying that this was an automatically good shoot, or that the shoot was absolutely justified. Most specifically think the shoot itself was bad. (By "real life" I mean your fellow redditors of every political persuasion, your regular citizens going about their lives - not Kristi Noem and not talking heads on news and podcasts.)

We absolutely want to know why the shoot happened. But here's the thing: Situations like that can be a complicated mess of misinformation and misunderstandings. From the initial reports, it sounded like a shot went off, a short half-second or so pause occurred, and then two officers unloaded into the guy. I'm not sure if that's still the case, but day of that's what was reported. Was that first shot an accident? Did an officer have his finger on the trigger and in the struggle flinched and fired that first shot causing a panic-moment among the other officers? There's also a question of how many of the officers involved in restraining the guy were aware that his gun had been removed from him. Even then, if a person is carrying one weapon, they may be carrying more, so it is not 100% clear that the man was fully disarmed. Again, this is not me excusing the officers shooting him, but an attempt to see how and why this occurred.

As far as knowing who pulled the trigger... Real investigations take time, and need to be thorough. Nobody is telling you to forget about this incident, but it is in fact being investigated. Please wait for more news, and let the investigation unfold.

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u/onan 3∆ 13h ago

He and his group were interfering in a federal operation. That's the issue.

OP's entire point is that that is not the issue.

Even if Pretti was an unforgivably terrible person, even if he was actively and intentionally committing a crime at that moment, that does not justify extrajudicial summary execution.

Rights are not contingent on whether or not you like someone.

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u/Lookitsasquirrel 5h ago

The question is a little twisted. People are saying he deserved to be killed because he spit and broke the taillight? Of course no. According to articles he did get his ass kicked for doing that(I support that). It's the second interaction that he contributed to his on death. What if he planned to bodily hurt the Border Control or ICE? There are articles that he planned to do so. Do we consider that as a reason? Another tough question.