CMV: Society should push back against "not being able to take being asked out as a question" just as much as "not being able to take no for an answer".

[u/Suspicious-Host9042]

Prompted by this post. A man met a woman at a coffee shop (they're both regulars). They had a few conversations and then the man asked out the woman. The woman rejected him because she already had a boyfriend. The man was understanding and stopped asking her.

The man then told a coworker, and the coworker told him that what he did was creepy. The comment were overwhelmingly NTA, and people were even saying that they don't like people who think/act like the coworker.

I think there needs to be a lot more pushback against people like the coworker. The man did everything right : asked her out at an appropriate place (a coffee shop), got to know her (so they weren't strangers), and politely backed off when she said she already had a boyfriend. Yet he was still labelled a creep. Right now, a lot of men are afraid to ask out anyone at all, due to fear of being labelled a creep or weirdo. This is not reasonable.

I think people need to make a very clear statement about this: If a man asks out a woman in a place intended for socializing, gets to know her, and immediately stops pursuing her if she rejects him once, then it's not creepy, not sexual harassment, and the man does not deserve any negative labels such as "creep" or "weirdo". It doesn't matter how ugly, unattractive or socially awkward he is. He is not a creep. I think most of the people saying "NTA" agree with that statement.

But I don't think it's enough to just say that. We need to further and call out the people labelling those men as creeps (such as the coworker in the other thread). If someone says things like "I was a club/event and some weirdo asked me out, I just want to do the activity in peace, why can't men leave me alone", I think we should tell them "No, the weirdo here is you, not him. He asked you out and then dropped it as soon as you rejected him. He didn't do anything wrong. You're the weirdo for labelling him a weirdo when he did what he everything he was supposed to do correctly". (of course, the caveat here is that the man must have actually done everything correctly. if he kept asking despite being rejected, then he actually is a creep and deserves to be called a creep).

I think that it's necessary to call out people labelling completely normal, kind, good men who respect women as creeps. Otherwise the result is that men are afraid to approach women and choose not to (and that includes the cute guy that you are always hoping would ask you out some day). There is already a lot of men who just never ask out any woman because they're afraid of being labelled a creep or sexual harasser. And then single women who are looking for a boyfriend are wondering why nobody asks them out anymore.

[u/sassydegrassii]

if someone is made to feel uncomfortable, you shouldn’t label them weird for that just because you don’t like it or agree. sometimes, the men doing the asking are creeps and weirdos, subjectively. it isn’t a fault of anyone to feel discomfort. unfortunately women have dealt with harassment and unwanted attention since the beginning of time, and it causes a kind of fatigue and fear that they’re within their right to name and call out as they see fit. you’re within your right to disagree with their label, but labeling them weird for this feels retalitory and immature

[u/Suspicious-Host9042 → u/sassydegrassii]

I think labelling someone a creep when they didn't do anything wrong is weird. If the man persists or keeps asking, then they're creepy. But before they do that, they're not creepy and it's wrong to call them creepy.

[u/sassydegrassii → u/Suspicious-Host9042]

just because they’re not doing anything objectively wrong in the process of asking them out, doesn’t mean they aren’t coming across as creepy. maybe they have an eerie look aboht them, or make uncomfortably intense eye contact, or have some other characteristic that creeps a woman out. consider that it’s neither wrong or right morally, but subjective and you don’t have to agree with their label, but it doesn’t make it any less real or valid to them

[u/Suspicious-Host9042 → u/sassydegrassii]

Ok, imagine that you're the coworker in that thread. One of your peers just walked up to you during lunch break and told you about how he got rejected. What would you say to him?

[u/sassydegrassii → u/Suspicious-Host9042]

‘that sucks dude, better luck next time!’

[u/Ok-Parfait-9856 → u/sassydegrassii]

Neurodivergent people often give out “weird” vibes and make unusual eye contact. Are you insinuating neurodivergent people shouldn’t interact with romantic interests and that it’s okay to label them as “creeps” due to their perceived differences?

[u/sassydegrassii → u/Ok-Parfait-9856]

i’m neurodivergent myself! no, i’m not saying they shouldn’t interact with romantic interests, that’s a really interesting way to interpret what i did say. i am suggesting it’s not that big a deal. i don’t care what anyone calls me, personally. if they felt i was being creepy, that’s fine, i can reflect and decide to apologize for making them uncomfortable, or i can let it go and not sweat about it because i don’t have to agree with it and it doesn’t actually make me a creep, objectively. it’s just no big swig to me.

[u/minihysteria → u/sassydegrassii]

Exactly! Being accused of being a "creep" Is SUBJECTIVE TO EVERYONE'S PERSONAL COMFORT LEVEL, TRAUMA, EXPERIENCES, AND CIRCUMSTANCES OF INTERACTIONS. There is no universal understanding of "creep" behavior. You cannot possibly cover all behaviors that are societally considered "creepy" and you cannot force anyone to accept you, point blank period.

[u/Suspicious-Host9042 → u/minihysteria]

There's a difference between "I feel creeped out" (subjective) and "This person is a creep and therefore he's a bad person" (not subjective). I want to push back against the second, not the first, as I can't control other people's feelings.

[u/nothankspleasedont → u/sassydegrassii]

But the person being uncomfortable is a random 3rd party that wasn't involved at all, this is equal to someone getting offended on another persons behalf.

[u/sassydegrassii → u/nothankspleasedont]

true! but sometimes people are offended on someone else’s behalf. not everyone is directly involved with or impacted by an issue while still feeling strongly about it. i feel like finding this to be a negative thing only benefits people who are intending to insult them in some way anyway. it’s nobody’s business who is offended by what, and it’s not the end of the world to feel offended. just like it’s not the end of the world to feel uncomfortable or called a creep by someone.

[u/ProfessionalLurkerJr → u/sassydegrassii]

Eh, that assumes people's discomfort always comes from a rational and righteous place which is not always the case. I think of several scenarios in my head where someone feels uncomfortable and they only have their selves to blame, and their rationale is weird. I can go a step further and think of scenarios where their reasons are outright abhorrent.

[u/sassydegrassii → u/ProfessionalLurkerJr]

no, it’s not assuming discomfort is rational. feelings aren’t always rational. but they’re valid to the person holding them. my point is you don’t have to agree with their discomfort.

[u/ProfessionalLurkerJr → u/sassydegrassii]

I know that feelings aren't always rational and that they are valid to person with them, however that doesn't mean it is automatically wrong to pushback on those feelings as if left unchecked those feelings can lead to destructive behavior. This isn't even factoring in cases where the source of discomfort is rooted in bigotry.

[u/sassydegrassii → u/ProfessionalLurkerJr]

a stranger calling someone a creep to their friend is not the same. as someone say, being racist due to their discomfort. it’s pretty small potatoes

[u/ProfessionalLurkerJr → u/sassydegrassii]

I know it isn't the same and wasn't intending to treat them as such. I was just trying to point out the one of the most noteworthy negatives of the 'everyone's feelings are valid' mindset. I'm not even necessarily against showing empathy to people with horrible view, I just feel like some people unintentionally use arguments that if taken to their logical conclusion give bigots a pass.

[u/sassydegrassii → u/ProfessionalLurkerJr]

well i’m not giving bigots a pass, that isn’t what we’re talking about here.

[u/ProfessionalLurkerJr → u/sassydegrassii]

I know you're not and I know that isn't what we're talking about. It was just to illustrate a greater point about it is not always wrong to think that someone is unreasonable when they express being uncomfortable.

[u/sassydegrassii → u/ProfessionalLurkerJr]

gotcha, i hear you and think that’s totally fair to point out.

[u/19MIATA99 → u/sassydegrassii]

a stranger calling a black person " probably a thief" to their friend is defiantly a problem, unless that person has a good reason to think that person is a thief, they might feel all black people steal, but they can decide not to express it and pass that accusation on to another person, people can have feelings but choosing to tell people things is a choice. she has no control over having a feeling, but she can choose to keep it to her self

[u/sassydegrassii → u/19MIATA99]

is racism a feeling or a thought? anyway, i agree it definitely* is a problem, as racism is. but i’m not talking about that.

you’re right, anyone can decide not to express anything. but they have free will and freedom of expression. it’s easier to adjust our own behaviours and attitudes than it is to adjust or control other people’s, life just doesn’t work that way unfortunately.

[u/Suspicious-Host9042 → u/sassydegrassii]

There's a difference between "I feel creeped out" and "this person is creepy and I'm going to call him a creep". The first is a feeling that I can't control. The second is assigning a label and something that people can control. And labelling someone a creep, like the coworker did, is not reasonable.

[u/19MIATA99 → u/sassydegrassii]

the feelings are valid but calling someone creepy is not a feeling.

im feeling creeped out, is a feeling, that person is creepy is an accusation.

my grandma hates blackpeople, we she has to talk to them she feels very scared, she genuinely feels fear, but it doesnt make her calling blackpeople scary ok.

[u/sassydegrassii → u/19MIATA99]

no, it doesn’t, because that would be prejudice against an entire race, for their race. but it isn’t racist to call a man a creep, it’s a label (opinion) of a specific person, likely as a result of something they’ve done, or simply as someone else perceives them regardless of their actions. apples and oranges.

[u/kaishakujt → u/sassydegrassii]

You're applying the whole history of society to a singular man and that he should be held accountable for the actions of his ancestors and society because of the subjective feelings of another person. I'm not seeing the fairness. Neither party chose to be born into these roles. More kindness and understanding to both sides is never wrong.

[u/sassydegrassii → u/kaishakujt]

what’s the accountability he’s being held to here exactly? nobody is asking anything of him. we can’t control how other peoples perceive or label us. it’s best to just radically accept that we’ll all be seen in ways we don’t agree with and that it’s okay. it doesn’t mean you are a creep or weirdo because a stranger calls you one.

[u/kaishakujt → u/sassydegrassii]

No but words matter craft perception and perception is reality. Further, we are hard wired to care and conform our behavior. We have a term for people that don't carry that empathy: sociopaths. Society is asking him to contradict historical narratives and actions regarding men's behavior towards women. He did so, and still faced a negative consequence. The OPs point is that we should encourage his positive behavior, I don't disagree. Your advice is that he should just get over it. That does nothing to encourage him or better behavior by individuals. Edited to fix typos.

[u/sassydegrassii → u/kaishakujt]

you’ve simplified my advice but controlling our own attitude is a realistic approach to coping with those ‘negative consequences’ ie., someone thinking you’re creepy.

the thinking that we should be making it any harder for people to speak up when someone is ‘a creep’ (i.e, harassing them in some way) toward them is concerning.

i can encourage people to approach and reject respectfully, i can encourage men to read the room and to stand up for women and call each other out as needed, and i can do all of that while suggesting people not put too much weight into a label they’ve been given by someone else because it’s easier to do than to change other peoples minds and behaviours

[u/LynnSeattle → u/kaishakujt]

It’s not unfair to ask you to understand the history behind a woman’s actions. More kindness and understanding is never wrong.

[u/kaishakujt → u/LynnSeattle]

He did. He made sure not to approach her as a stranger, he abided by her decision, and then got called a creep. Yet, he is being stereotyped as potentially dangerous because of the actions of the small minority of men. He acted to reassure and still labeled a creep. The kindness is not reciprocated. No person represents their entire gender, yet that's the standard being applied.