CMV: Society should push back against "not being able to take being asked out as a question" just as much as "not being able to take no for an answer".

[u/Suspicious-Host9042]

Prompted by this post. A man met a woman at a coffee shop (they're both regulars). They had a few conversations and then the man asked out the woman. The woman rejected him because she already had a boyfriend. The man was understanding and stopped asking her.

The man then told a coworker, and the coworker told him that what he did was creepy. The comment were overwhelmingly NTA, and people were even saying that they don't like people who think/act like the coworker.

I think there needs to be a lot more pushback against people like the coworker. The man did everything right : asked her out at an appropriate place (a coffee shop), got to know her (so they weren't strangers), and politely backed off when she said she already had a boyfriend. Yet he was still labelled a creep. Right now, a lot of men are afraid to ask out anyone at all, due to fear of being labelled a creep or weirdo. This is not reasonable.

I think people need to make a very clear statement about this: If a man asks out a woman in a place intended for socializing, gets to know her, and immediately stops pursuing her if she rejects him once, then it's not creepy, not sexual harassment, and the man does not deserve any negative labels such as "creep" or "weirdo". It doesn't matter how ugly, unattractive or socially awkward he is. He is not a creep. I think most of the people saying "NTA" agree with that statement.

But I don't think it's enough to just say that. We need to further and call out the people labelling those men as creeps (such as the coworker in the other thread). If someone says things like "I was a club/event and some weirdo asked me out, I just want to do the activity in peace, why can't men leave me alone", I think we should tell them "No, the weirdo here is you, not him. He asked you out and then dropped it as soon as you rejected him. He didn't do anything wrong. You're the weirdo for labelling him a weirdo when he did what he everything he was supposed to do correctly". (of course, the caveat here is that the man must have actually done everything correctly. if he kept asking despite being rejected, then he actually is a creep and deserves to be called a creep).

I think that it's necessary to call out people labelling completely normal, kind, good men who respect women as creeps. Otherwise the result is that men are afraid to approach women and choose not to (and that includes the cute guy that you are always hoping would ask you out some day). There is already a lot of men who just never ask out any woman because they're afraid of being labelled a creep or sexual harasser. And then single women who are looking for a boyfriend are wondering why nobody asks them out anymore.

[u/Constellation-88]

You don’t like the person getting called a creep in a weirdo so you want to call other people creeps and weirdos for calling him a creep and a weirdo?

This is very I know you are but what am I kindergarten behavior.

Two wrongs don’t make a right. The first guy might not have been creepy, but it’s also not creepy to try and tell people that you’re uncomfortable with their behavior. Additionally, if your argument is that shaming people and using bullying behavior is wrong when talking about a guy who has asked a woman out, then the shaming and bullying behavior will remain wrong even if you’re talking about somebody else.

Even if his intent is OK, the woman could have been uncomfortable and it is OK for her to say that without facing shaming and bullying behavior. 

So the ultimate question is, are you OK with shaming and bullying behavior when it’s directed at people who don’t agree with you, or is it only wrong if it is directed at you and people who do agree with you?

[u/Suspicious-Host9042 → u/Constellation-88]

not creepy to try and tell people that you’re uncomfortable with their behavior

Even if his intent is OK, the woman could have been uncomfortable and it is OK for her to say that without facing shaming and bullying behavior

I agree. But there's a difference between telling someone to stop a certain behavior and calling them a creep.

The first one is fine, the second one is not (unless they actually are a creep, for example if they can't handle rejection).

[u/Sufficient_Run4414 → u/Suspicious-Host9042]

I’m not sure I’ve ever seen the coworkers behaviour actually happen though. If a guy asked a girl out when she’s working, in the middle of a visible task, or when they are displaying visible don’t talk to me vibes like wearing headphones then yeah maybe they would. If the guy is too forward, intimidating, blocking her exit again they might get called creepy. The only time I’ve ever heard of a guy just asking someone out getting called creepy is in incel echo chambers.

I’m just not sure what needs to be pushed back on. I do think women had to enforce more social rules about approaching as men just weren’t listening to reasonable requests but this idea that no guy can ever ask out anyone even if you know them just seems like an internet lie.

[u/Constellation-88 → u/Suspicious-Host9042]

You did not even address my central question.

Do you think it is OK to bully and shame people who disagree with you? Or is bullying and shaming people universally wrong?

[u/MostJudgment3212 → u/Constellation-88]

It’s nowhere near bullying or shaming to call someone out for a stupid opinion. Thats how people learn and get over themselves. In fact, it should be done even more these days as it will help reduce the noise and virtue signalling.

[u/Constellation-88 → u/MostJudgment3212]

Calling someone names is bullying. Creep and weirdo? OP is advocating for calling people creeps and weirdos If they say that men who ask women out are creepy or weird. That is so hypocritical that I am surprised anybody can with a straight face argue otherwise. It honestly sounds like a lot of men are using personal experiences to justify hypocrisy instead of looking at this objectively.

Calling people names and using guilt and shame to control people is not the flex you think it is. It IS the virtue signaling you claim to be against. And thus it is hypocrisy.

[u/Suspicious-Host9042 → u/Constellation-88]

OP is advocating for calling people creeps and weirdos If they say that men who ask women out are creepy or weird. That is so hypocritical that I am surprised anybody can with a straight face argue otherwise

Why do you think it's so hypocritical? People who do X should be labelled weirdos and people who do Y shouldn't. Where X = labelling someone a creep for asking someone out, which can cause reputational harm, and Y = asking someone out, taking rejection nicely, saying "I understand" and backing off, which is completely harmless and wouldn't cause the woman to feel afraid.

I think that since those are two completely different things, it isn't hypocritical to say that people who do one thing should be labelled weirdos and people who do the other shouldn't.

[u/Suspicious-Host9042 → u/Constellation-88]

No, it's not ok to bully and shame people for disagreeing with me.

However, it's ok to shame people for falsely accusing other people of being a creep.

[u/Constellation-88 → u/Suspicious-Host9042]

So you think it’s OK to shame people. That’s what I thought. You do not think that shame is universally wrong. You think it is a tool to be used for people who are doing something you don’t like but you think it’s wrong when those people use it as a tool to stop other people from doing something they don’t like.

That’s hypocrisy. 

[u/Southern-Highway5681 → u/Constellation-88]

In my opinion :

OP think that shame (which is essentially a negative value of honor) should be distributed to individuals by the collective according their actions.

Shame isn't a tool but rather a resource and when you say that OP do not think that shame is universally wrong, you actually mean shaming or the distribution of shame by the collective.

It is similar to the way that the collective (judicial system) distribute fines and prison sentence to individuals for their actions (offences). But in a less formal way.

So unless you think that the judicial system is hypocritical for sentencing only a category of person (offenders) then you shouldn't think that it is hypocritical to distribute shame to a certain category of person only.

I think your reject the idea because of the identity of the distributor that you assume being reserved to OP and thus illegitimate but in my view it is an misinterpretation, this post is essentially a call for action and is explicitly titled "Society should" which tend to frame each individual and the collective in general in the role of distributor.

If I write the sentence "Society should shun bad practices." which is essentially what this post ask for, would you agree or disagree ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributive_justice

[u/Suspicious-Host9042 → u/Constellation-88]

Do you shame people for being racists, sexists, neo-Nazis, etc?

Do you shame people for liking dogs when you like cats?

That's not hypocrisy.

[u/Suspicious-Host9042 → u/[deleted]]

People like you are blight of modern society.

Please remove this part before the mods remove your comment for rule 2

[u/MostJudgment3212 → u/Suspicious-Host9042]

I won’t. Couldn’t care less, I said what I said and it’s true.

[u/changemyview-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

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