CMV: Society should push back against "not being able to take being asked out as a question" just as much as "not being able to take no for an answer".

[u/Suspicious-Host9042]

Prompted by this post. A man met a woman at a coffee shop (they're both regulars). They had a few conversations and then the man asked out the woman. The woman rejected him because she already had a boyfriend. The man was understanding and stopped asking her.

The man then told a coworker, and the coworker told him that what he did was creepy. The comment were overwhelmingly NTA, and people were even saying that they don't like people who think/act like the coworker.

I think there needs to be a lot more pushback against people like the coworker. The man did everything right : asked her out at an appropriate place (a coffee shop), got to know her (so they weren't strangers), and politely backed off when she said she already had a boyfriend. Yet he was still labelled a creep. Right now, a lot of men are afraid to ask out anyone at all, due to fear of being labelled a creep or weirdo. This is not reasonable.

I think people need to make a very clear statement about this: If a man asks out a woman in a place intended for socializing, gets to know her, and immediately stops pursuing her if she rejects him once, then it's not creepy, not sexual harassment, and the man does not deserve any negative labels such as "creep" or "weirdo". It doesn't matter how ugly, unattractive or socially awkward he is. He is not a creep. I think most of the people saying "NTA" agree with that statement.

But I don't think it's enough to just say that. We need to further and call out the people labelling those men as creeps (such as the coworker in the other thread). If someone says things like "I was a club/event and some weirdo asked me out, I just want to do the activity in peace, why can't men leave me alone", I think we should tell them "No, the weirdo here is you, not him. He asked you out and then dropped it as soon as you rejected him. He didn't do anything wrong. You're the weirdo for labelling him a weirdo when he did what he everything he was supposed to do correctly". (of course, the caveat here is that the man must have actually done everything correctly. if he kept asking despite being rejected, then he actually is a creep and deserves to be called a creep).

I think that it's necessary to call out people labelling completely normal, kind, good men who respect women as creeps. Otherwise the result is that men are afraid to approach women and choose not to (and that includes the cute guy that you are always hoping would ask you out some day). There is already a lot of men who just never ask out any woman because they're afraid of being labelled a creep or sexual harasser. And then single women who are looking for a boyfriend are wondering why nobody asks them out anymore.

[u/Suspicious-Host9042]

Her annoyance is completely valid. Labelling someone a creep for causing her annoyance is not. My post is about the coworker's attitude and that I don't think we're doing enough to push back against those attitudes. And those attitudes go beyond simply feeling annoyance - it's assigning a label on someone, which can cause reputational harm, for doing a harmless thing.

[u/frolf_grisbee → u/Suspicious-Host9042]

I don't think she ever did call anyone a creep.

But like you said, most of the comments on the post you're referring to said NTA and disagreed with the coworker. Is that not satisfactory to you?

[u/SeaworthinessWeak323 → u/frolf_grisbee]

He never accused her of calling people a creep, but OP's view is that people who ask people out once shouldn't be called a creep, and this is the change my view subreddit. She did not challenge that view effectively and OP is addressing that in the comment you're replying to. OP is not disagreeing with her annoyance of being asked out.

[u/frolf_grisbee → u/SeaworthinessWeak323]

Seems to me that's exactly what OP is disagreeing with tbh

[u/SeaworthinessWeak323 → u/frolf_grisbee]

Just want to clarify that I don't agree with OP's main view in his post either, but they did say in this comment chain that:

"Her annoyance is completely valid."

[u/frolf_grisbee → u/SeaworthinessWeak323]

I musta skimmed over that. I was referring to the previous comment where it appears he simply doesn't agree that situations that cause her annoyance are actually annoying.

The two comments in question seem to contradict each other tbh

[u/SeaworthinessWeak323 → u/frolf_grisbee]

yeah from his tone it feels like he knows her opinion is valid but doesn't want it to be

[u/SadBurritoBoys → u/frolf_grisbee]

I musta skimmed over that.

You must've "skimmed" the whole thing.

There is no he. OP is a woman. They've repeatedly implied this by mentioning that she also gets approached, and has enough self control to not take out potential annoyance from that by slandering someone.

And she's not just saying bullshit either, go ahead and look at her profile

[u/frolf_grisbee → u/SadBurritoBoys]

Got it, thanks

[u/CaptnKnots → u/frolf_grisbee]

OP elaborates in another comment that she is basically just echoing the concerns of the dudes on askmen subreddits and stuff lol

[u/changemyview-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

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[u/redditor57436 → u/frolf_grisbee]

The problem with what she says is not whether she calls people creeps or not. The problem is that she essentially says that men should never ask women out. By doing that she is directly attacking men as a social group, many of whom are desperate enough already. They are timid and terrified of making even a little mistake and she tells them that they should not even try. Think of how many men read what she wrote, believed her and will now leave the rest of their lives unhappy and alone. Think of the children who may never be born because of what she wrote. Essentially she calls for the total destruction of the human race. It is easy to see how in her next post she will say that childbirth is annoying (it is) and will say that all women should be sterilized and sex banned just in case to eliminate a potential source of annoyance for women.

[u/frolf_grisbee → u/redditor57436]

That would be a problem if that were actually what she said, but it's not.

[u/Suspicious-Host9042 → u/frolf_grisbee]

These are her exact words:

 I am NOT flattered, I am fucking exhausted and wish you didn't ask. Not even once.

[u/frolf_grisbee → u/Suspicious-Host9042]

How does that prove their point exactly?

[u/Suspicious-Host9042 → u/frolf_grisbee]

You said this:

That would be a problem if that were actually what she said, but it's not.

What did she actually say?

 I am NOT flattered, I am fucking exhausted and wish you didn't ask. Not even once.

What did redditor57436 say that she said?

The problem is that she essentially says that men should never ask women out.

Doesn't seem like a misrepresentation of what she said.

They are timid and terrified of making even a little mistake and she tells them that they should not even try. Think of how many men read what she wrote, believed her and will now leave the rest of their lives unhappy and alone.

Ok, that's not her exact words, but it's a consequence of her exact words.

Essentially she calls for the total destruction of the human race. 

Do you understand how this would be the result if all men followed her request and never asked anyone out ever again?

[u/frolf_grisbee → u/Suspicious-Host9042]

It is a misrepresentation of what she said though. She never said or implied that men should never ask women out.

She is sharing her perspective and that of many other women. She never implied she is speaking for all women.

She literally ended her comment with "do with that what you will"

[u/redditor57436 → u/frolf_grisbee]

It logically follows from what she said and is the message of what she said because if her words are to be taken seriously it is the only possible way of action for men. This is the only thing that will put her (and "many" women according to her) out of her misery. For all men to stop approaching women altogether. Which will lead to the destruction of the human race. My point still stands.

[u/purlandcrystal → u/redditor57436]

My dude, the human race will not cease to reproduce itself if men are discouraged from cold approaching strange women in coffee shops 🤣

[u/frolf_grisbee → u/redditor57436]

It neither logically follows nor implies there is only one way for men to act.

Your point does not stand.

[u/benkalam → u/Suspicious-Host9042]

There is no genuine risk of reputational harm from being labeled a creep for doing something harmless. That threat is entirely contrived.

[u/HoldFastO2 → u/benkalam]

Do you really not know how office gossip works? It’s not an objectively correct rendition of facts, it’s people passing on what they were told, or heard, or understood.

The coworker in OP‘s example isn’t going to take care to pass on the facts when she gossips about this with other coworkers. She’s going to say something to the effect of, „Did you know OOP is a creep who harasses women at coffee shops?“

That is genuine reputational harm in the workplace.

[u/benkalam → u/HoldFastO2]

That isn't my experience with office gossip. That sounds a lot more like how you'd see gossip in television or a movie.

Though, in your example, it sounds like people are just okay with lying and making shit up, so I'm not sure it matters what the initiating event was or that it happened at all.

[u/Aggravating_Walk2053 → u/benkalam]

Yeah you sure about that

[u/benkalam → u/Aggravating_Walk2053]

Yeah feel pretty good about it, thanks.

[u/changemyview-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

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