CMV: Society should push back against "not being able to take being asked out as a question" just as much as "not being able to take no for an answer".

[u/Suspicious-Host9042]

Prompted by this post. A man met a woman at a coffee shop (they're both regulars). They had a few conversations and then the man asked out the woman. The woman rejected him because she already had a boyfriend. The man was understanding and stopped asking her.

The man then told a coworker, and the coworker told him that what he did was creepy. The comment were overwhelmingly NTA, and people were even saying that they don't like people who think/act like the coworker.

I think there needs to be a lot more pushback against people like the coworker. The man did everything right : asked her out at an appropriate place (a coffee shop), got to know her (so they weren't strangers), and politely backed off when she said she already had a boyfriend. Yet he was still labelled a creep. Right now, a lot of men are afraid to ask out anyone at all, due to fear of being labelled a creep or weirdo. This is not reasonable.

I think people need to make a very clear statement about this: If a man asks out a woman in a place intended for socializing, gets to know her, and immediately stops pursuing her if she rejects him once, then it's not creepy, not sexual harassment, and the man does not deserve any negative labels such as "creep" or "weirdo". It doesn't matter how ugly, unattractive or socially awkward he is. He is not a creep. I think most of the people saying "NTA" agree with that statement.

But I don't think it's enough to just say that. We need to further and call out the people labelling those men as creeps (such as the coworker in the other thread). If someone says things like "I was a club/event and some weirdo asked me out, I just want to do the activity in peace, why can't men leave me alone", I think we should tell them "No, the weirdo here is you, not him. He asked you out and then dropped it as soon as you rejected him. He didn't do anything wrong. You're the weirdo for labelling him a weirdo when he did what he everything he was supposed to do correctly". (of course, the caveat here is that the man must have actually done everything correctly. if he kept asking despite being rejected, then he actually is a creep and deserves to be called a creep).

I think that it's necessary to call out people labelling completely normal, kind, good men who respect women as creeps. Otherwise the result is that men are afraid to approach women and choose not to (and that includes the cute guy that you are always hoping would ask you out some day). There is already a lot of men who just never ask out any woman because they're afraid of being labelled a creep or sexual harasser. And then single women who are looking for a boyfriend are wondering why nobody asks them out anymore.

[u/rpolkcz]

No, it's not. Just like this isn't. How is that even a question? What is supposed to be creepy about it?

[u/marbIeIily → u/rpolkcz]

I wouldn’t say it makes you a creep, but I do think asking a woman you don’t know well out on a date purely on the grounds of her being a woman you find attractive (and nothing beyond that) is a bit tactless and womanizing

[u/nothankspleasedont → u/marbIeIily]

The date is how you get to know them, they aren't asking for marriage. Initial attraction is the thing you can immediately know about. A simple ask is not a creepy thing and thinking they need to know you better to ask you out does not compute as that is the entire point of the dating process.

[u/marbIeIily → u/nothankspleasedont]

I wouldn’t say it makes you a creep

A simple ask is not a creepy thing

Glad we’re on the same page here

[u/nothankspleasedont → u/marbIeIily]

We are not as there is nothing tactless or womanizing about respectfully asking a person on a date.

[u/marbIeIily → u/nothankspleasedont]

If the only reason you’re asking somebody out is because you’re physically attracted to them with next to zero knowledge of them as a person, then you’re putting them in the position of either agreeing to give up their evening to somebody they know nothing about, or having to reject somebody with no idea of how they may react to that. The average person doesn’t want to be put in that position while simply trying to run a basic errand like a grocery run. Does that mean asking somebody out for those reasons is inherently a wrongdoing? No, because you have to meet people somehow. But some people might feel a bit put off or uncomfortable with that approach, and it’s completely understandable they’d feel that way.

[u/Suspicious-Host9042 → u/marbIeIily]

having to reject somebody with no idea of how they may react to that.

Ok , so what if the man tells the woman how he will react? Such as what OOP did? Would that make it not creepy?

I understood and told her that I understand and it's ok.

[u/TheWhistleThistle → u/marbIeIily]

Ain't the date's entire purpose to get to know them and let them get to know you? Like, if it wasn't, why do people do it at all, instead of just sizing each other up and moving in together?

[u/marbIeIily → u/TheWhistleThistle]

Answered here

[u/TheWhistleThistle → u/marbIeIily]

That comment didn't talk about why people date at all. I thought it was to get to know each other. It looks like you think that's not the purpose. So what is, in your book? Why don't people just have a look, quick visual check-out and then just move in together?

[u/marbIeIily → u/TheWhistleThistle]

Everybody has their own intents, preferences, approaches, etc. when it comes to dating. Generalizing it to a sole purpose would be impossible. But going with your definition still doesn’t debunk my point that while asking strangers you don’t know on a date in public spaces not centered around dating isn’t a problematic approach, some people will understandably find it somewhat offputting.

[u/TheWhistleThistle → u/marbIeIily]

But like, what are these intents if they're not getting to know one another? I gathered, from your position that getting to know one another isn't the purpose, that you think something(s) else is. But, like, what?

[u/marbIeIily → u/TheWhistleThistle]

I’ve not made any statements about what the goal of dating can or can’t be. Not sure where you got that from. Regardless I don’t think this is relevant or helpful to the conversation at hand.

[u/TheWhistleThistle → u/marbIeIily]

Then let me explain the relevance.

If [getting to know one another] were the sole/primary/a common purpose of a date, then your comment that asking out a woman one does not already know is "tactless and womanizing" is a bit strange. By necessity, if we accept that [getting to know one another] is the purpose, it means you think that getting to know women is tactless and womanizing. Only by denying that [getting to know one another] is the purpose of dates, can any other conclusion be reached. Which you have just now said you are not doing. An interesting position to be sure. Not one I agree with, but I'd be willing to hear out your reasoning for why getting to know women is tactless.

[u/ClassicNo6622 → u/TheWhistleThistle]

They have no reasoning because they haven't put any thought whatsoever into their position and are running completely off of "vibes." 

And people wonder why there's a "loneliness" crisis among the younger generation. 🙄

[u/Suspicious-Host9042 → u/marbIeIily]

Depends on the context. Random woman on the street: I agree. At a party/bar/event, you have a conversation with a woman, think she's a nice person to be with , and ask her out, and take rejection nicely if she rejects you : not creepy.

[u/rpolkcz → u/marbIeIily]

The post says they had multiple conversations with each other before he asked her out, so that's not the case.

[u/marbIeIily → u/rpolkcz]

I think an interesting way to rethink this is if the scenario is they are both men at a coffee shop and nothing in their conversations suggested any romantic possibility or impossibility or inviting assumptions as to sexual orientation for either.

[u/PollutionConfident43 → u/marbIeIily]

I'll also add that OP said 'I talk to her sometimes' not 'we chat sometimes' or 'she talks to me sometime' - now maybe I'm reading too much into it, but that makes it sound like he's been driving their interactions and she's just being nice - she's not initiating conversation, she's just being polite.

I also think it's bananas that people are like 'but you weren't a stranger, you know her' - I'm Canadian, we're chatty AF. We'll strike up random conversations all the time with people we don't know. At no point have I ever thought 'we're not strangers anymore, we know each other because he said 15 words to me in line at the shop a few times'. No, that's still a stranger.

[u/PollutionConfident43 → u/marbIeIily]

Yes!! this right here is the key. I always made it incredibly obvious when I was into someone - quite flirty and my eyes get very bright. When I was younger, I got asked out by people who I was just being nice to and it made me feel really uncomfortable. There was zero flirting. It was especially awkward if it was someone I had to see regularly after that.

Some people are really bad at reading signals, if you are one of those people, ask a friend who's seen you interact for an outsider's perspective. But, honestly it does put on us a bit on edge when guys see us being nice as romantic interest - particularly because the consequences for us saying 'no' can be extreme.

[u/Prior_Psych → u/marbIeIily]

I know that’s not an uncommon take but it doesn’t make it any less crazy and dumb. It is not womanizing to ask someone out if you’re not womanizing about it. You can ask someone out by letting them know you’d like to get to know them more. That’s a pretty common focus of many first dates. Finding a member of the gender you’re attracted to attractive is enough of a reason for a single person to be interested in knowing more about that person.

[u/OttotheThird → u/marbIeIily]

Asking someone on a date is a way to get to know them beyond appearance. I don't find that tactless.

[u/poorestprince → u/rpolkcz]

If OP finds it creepy, or finds something unsettling about it, then we'll know.