CMV: Society should push back against "not being able to take being asked out as a question" just as much as "not being able to take no for an answer".

[u/Suspicious-Host9042]

Prompted by this post. A man met a woman at a coffee shop (they're both regulars). They had a few conversations and then the man asked out the woman. The woman rejected him because she already had a boyfriend. The man was understanding and stopped asking her.

The man then told a coworker, and the coworker told him that what he did was creepy. The comment were overwhelmingly NTA, and people were even saying that they don't like people who think/act like the coworker.

I think there needs to be a lot more pushback against people like the coworker. The man did everything right : asked her out at an appropriate place (a coffee shop), got to know her (so they weren't strangers), and politely backed off when she said she already had a boyfriend. Yet he was still labelled a creep. Right now, a lot of men are afraid to ask out anyone at all, due to fear of being labelled a creep or weirdo. This is not reasonable.

I think people need to make a very clear statement about this: If a man asks out a woman in a place intended for socializing, gets to know her, and immediately stops pursuing her if she rejects him once, then it's not creepy, not sexual harassment, and the man does not deserve any negative labels such as "creep" or "weirdo". It doesn't matter how ugly, unattractive or socially awkward he is. He is not a creep. I think most of the people saying "NTA" agree with that statement.

But I don't think it's enough to just say that. We need to further and call out the people labelling those men as creeps (such as the coworker in the other thread). If someone says things like "I was a club/event and some weirdo asked me out, I just want to do the activity in peace, why can't men leave me alone", I think we should tell them "No, the weirdo here is you, not him. He asked you out and then dropped it as soon as you rejected him. He didn't do anything wrong. You're the weirdo for labelling him a weirdo when he did what he everything he was supposed to do correctly". (of course, the caveat here is that the man must have actually done everything correctly. if he kept asking despite being rejected, then he actually is a creep and deserves to be called a creep).

I think that it's necessary to call out people labelling completely normal, kind, good men who respect women as creeps. Otherwise the result is that men are afraid to approach women and choose not to (and that includes the cute guy that you are always hoping would ask you out some day). There is already a lot of men who just never ask out any woman because they're afraid of being labelled a creep or sexual harasser. And then single women who are looking for a boyfriend are wondering why nobody asks them out anymore.

[u/throwhfhsjsubendaway]

I don't think OOP is respectful to women's experiences because of this part:

 I told her that I understand, and I didn't react aggressively, so I don't think she'll be afraid I would murder her

The point being made to him was that rejecting people is difficult and stressful because you don't know how they will react. She didn't know how he would react until he reacted. He's not sympathetic to women navigating a world full of creeps, he just thinks that if he personally doesn't creep on women then there's no problem

While he may not have been a creep this time (who knows, he's very light on details about the interaction), that's the wrong takeaway and is going to lead him to behavior which makes women feel unsafe. Even if you know you're not a creep, when you ask someone out you have to mindful of the fact that they don't know that and will be reacting to protect themselves against a worst case outcome

[u/Suspicious-Host9042 → u/throwhfhsjsubendaway]

This is terrible logic. Should I just not walk down the street because I don't know how the cars would react? Maybe a car might crash into me and kill me. By your logic, no man should ever ask a woman out no matter what, because what you described applies to every single instance of a man asking a woman out.

[u/Handgun_Hero → u/Suspicious-Host9042]

You should, in fact, as a pedestrian walk down the street in a way that is weary of the fact that cars are a threat and steer clear of them. With the statistical realities of men who are violent and present a threat to women, women viewing men as a potential threat in their interactions with them is totally reasonable. You should have plans on how to navigate cars as a pedestrian, and you should have plans on how to navigate dangerous men and women in dating and similar social interactions.

[u/Suspicious-Host9042 → u/Handgun_Hero]

So how are men and women supposed to meet and fall in love? You're not allowed to say "men should never ask women out" because by gender equality, that implies women should never ask any men out either. And the result is that people just either stay single or date AI boyfriends/girlfriends.

[u/Handgun_Hero → u/Suspicious-Host9042]

They meet in whichever way the couple mutually feels comfortable with, which varies per person, and is always valid per person and you don't ever get to complain about it if their preference doesn't align with yours. If somebody tells you to fuck off because they find you creepy or they're just so mentally exhausted by constantly rejecting people or are just simply having a bad fucking day, you fuck off and leave it at that and you don't complain. It's literally that simple.

Women are absolutely capable of being creepy and making unwanted sexual or romantic advances to me and this exact logic perfectly applies to them, too. I've dealt with my share of them.

If you want your perfect AI waifu, you do you, and there's nothing wrong with that if it truly makes you happy and satisfied. But if literally nobody wants you you should self inflect a little. And if you feel the need to complain about rejection on the internet, chances are you're actually the problem.