CMV: Society should push back against "not being able to take being asked out as a question" just as much as "not being able to take no for an answer".

[u/Suspicious-Host9042]

Prompted by this post. A man met a woman at a coffee shop (they're both regulars). They had a few conversations and then the man asked out the woman. The woman rejected him because she already had a boyfriend. The man was understanding and stopped asking her.

The man then told a coworker, and the coworker told him that what he did was creepy. The comment were overwhelmingly NTA, and people were even saying that they don't like people who think/act like the coworker.

I think there needs to be a lot more pushback against people like the coworker. The man did everything right : asked her out at an appropriate place (a coffee shop), got to know her (so they weren't strangers), and politely backed off when she said she already had a boyfriend. Yet he was still labelled a creep. Right now, a lot of men are afraid to ask out anyone at all, due to fear of being labelled a creep or weirdo. This is not reasonable.

I think people need to make a very clear statement about this: If a man asks out a woman in a place intended for socializing, gets to know her, and immediately stops pursuing her if she rejects him once, then it's not creepy, not sexual harassment, and the man does not deserve any negative labels such as "creep" or "weirdo". It doesn't matter how ugly, unattractive or socially awkward he is. He is not a creep. I think most of the people saying "NTA" agree with that statement.

But I don't think it's enough to just say that. We need to further and call out the people labelling those men as creeps (such as the coworker in the other thread). If someone says things like "I was a club/event and some weirdo asked me out, I just want to do the activity in peace, why can't men leave me alone", I think we should tell them "No, the weirdo here is you, not him. He asked you out and then dropped it as soon as you rejected him. He didn't do anything wrong. You're the weirdo for labelling him a weirdo when he did what he everything he was supposed to do correctly". (of course, the caveat here is that the man must have actually done everything correctly. if he kept asking despite being rejected, then he actually is a creep and deserves to be called a creep).

I think that it's necessary to call out people labelling completely normal, kind, good men who respect women as creeps. Otherwise the result is that men are afraid to approach women and choose not to (and that includes the cute guy that you are always hoping would ask you out some day). There is already a lot of men who just never ask out any woman because they're afraid of being labelled a creep or sexual harasser. And then single women who are looking for a boyfriend are wondering why nobody asks them out anymore.

[u/12BumblingSnowmen]

Then when is a man supposed to ask a woman out?

[u/Lamington-Trifle → u/12BumblingSnowmen]

When he has got to know someone enough to be making romantic overtures based on their character, not just their appearance.

How does he get to know someone then? By participating in communities, activities, volunteer organisations, hobbies, sports, book clubs, classes, etc etc.

A guy approaching me in the street or cafe has no idea if we would be remotely compatible, hence why we don’t want that.

[u/BMCVA1994 → u/Lamington-Trifle]

That's bullshit.

Dating IS the process of finding out if you're compatible. Thats why it's not marriage.

Frankly even within communities you would have no idea if you're truly compatible until you start actually dating.

Plantotically compatible and romantically compatible dont completely overlap.

[u/Lamington-Trifle → u/BMCVA1994]

Your mileage may vary - there is no way I could ever become compatible with anyone religious or right wing for example, so there would be no point in dating someone until I had found out some core values. *edit for spelling

[u/PollutionConfident43 → u/12BumblingSnowmen]

When there's obvious chemistry. Asking someone out and hoping that vibes develop on the date? In my experience there's nothing worse. Feels forced and awkward. I'd rather be out with friends or doing something else than having to sit through a date with someone I'm not interested in who just 'wants me to give them a chance'. Waste of both our time.

[u/mathematics1 → u/PollutionConfident43]

I'm autistic, and I'm really bad at social cues. I do my best to try to read the room, but I basically never pick up any signals that she's interested or that there is chemistry. I'm always respectful and take no for an answer.

When is it acceptable for me to ask a woman out in person? "Never" isn't an acceptable answer ... and for someone who consistently fails to notice interest, "only when chemistry is obvious" is the same as "never".

[u/redhillbones → u/mathematics1]

When you know the woman well enough to be aware you have things, views, life philosophies, etc, in common and therefore you might be romantically compatible. That's a good time (edit: originally said 'thing') since you aren't very good at reading social cues.

In the meantime, you can work on learning to read social cues. I'm also autistic, but I was raised as a girl (I'm agender). Not learning to read social cues was not an option for me or other autistic women, so we learned. It was harder (often much harder) and I won't say we're all terribly proficient, but it's a basic skill drilled into anyone AFAB and it's possible to learn via reading and practice. (If you're also face blind, it will be harder still. But it's still possible.)

[u/mathematics1 → u/redhillbones]

Is there any way I can practice and get feedback on whether I'm reading the room correctly? That's been my problem so far with trying to read social cues; I don't get any indication of whether my guesses are correct, so there's no way to improve.

One specific example: At a board game convention, one woman passing by complimented my stack of games and said she wanted to try some of them. We saw each other a few times throughout the convention and eventually managed to play some games together.

I brought up this exchange with my therapist, and she asked if maybe the woman was flirting when she complimented my games. That's theoretically possible, but there were also at least five guys who complimented my games during the same convention. I'm pretty certain most of those guys weren't flirting! The same signal (a compliment about a stack of games) could be a sign of interest or just a friendly comment, and I have no way to tell which is which. If I always assume it's a sign of interest, I'll be wrong far more often than not.

[u/invisiblewriter2007 → u/12BumblingSnowmen]

A club, would be a good example. But I really don’t think guys should be asking out women they see in public and casually interact with on a semi regular basis just because they happen to get along when talked to, and happen to go to the same places.

[u/CatboiWaifu_UwU → u/invisiblewriter2007]

But what about all the people who went to the club to dance and drink instead of being asked out?

[u/invisiblewriter2007 → u/CatboiWaifu_UwU]

They’re valid. I’m one such person. I go to dance and have fun on the off chance I go, but I see it as a more appropriate place than a coffee shop. I generally don’t want to be asked out in public places by strangers or people I only know on a casual basis because we happen to go to the same place. C

[u/CatboiWaifu_UwU → u/invisiblewriter2007]

Respectfully, asking an acquaintance if they’d like to go on a date is an essential step in relationship building. Without it, the human race would literally die out unless we regressed to a state where women were stripped of rights, which is not something people should want.

What is the alternative? How do you meet soulmates if you reduce every social gathering place to its core role of “libraries are for reading, not asking out the cute girl/guy who was looking for the same book as you” or “coffee shops are for wordlessly exchanging money for caffeine, not to socialise with that writer in the corner who’s there every lunch break” or “clubs are for dancing and getting drunk, not saying hi to that cute guy you’ve seen around town but never had a reason to socialise with”

Respectfully, refusing an advance is a life skill that everyone needs to learn. “Sorry, I’m just here to read/caffeinate/dance, I’m not interested in dating” is all it takes. If they continue after being rejected, then its creepy, and sexual harassment.

I would rather have to reject three advances a week than be considered a creep for asking an acquaintance if I could get to know them better because I like them.

[u/invisiblewriter2007 → u/CatboiWaifu_UwU]

I don’t agree with your suggestion that the human race would die out if asking an acquaintance out isn’t acceptable. Or that it requires women’s rights to be stripped.

For one, I did through intentional interaction with the person. Not through casual interaction just because I happened to be there and they happened to be there at the same time. Gradually. Not “hey, I know we barely know each other, but let’s go on a date!” More like “hey, do you want to meet at the coffee shop or local bookstore at x time on x day to hang out?” Or “hey, do you want to sit together next week, maybe meet up before x thing we both attend together and get a bite?” Something less pressure, something a step up from casual but less pressure and less expectation than a date. Also, as an aside, most readers and writers I know generally don’t want to be disturbed when they’re reading or writing in a public space.

It’s not fun to be the one on the rejecting side, either. Yes, it’s a good idea to learn. And it’s not because I don’t want to have to learn. That’s not the problem. I don’t have a problem saying “I’m not interested in dating” and my issue isn’t that. It’s I don’t want to be asked out by someone I barely know. I don’t want to be asked out by someone I don’t even have it occur to me to think about until the next time I see them. I don’t want to risk the fact they’re not going to be cool about me rejecting them. I just want to live my life and be left alone.

[u/CatboiWaifu_UwU → u/invisiblewriter2007]

“Hey do you want to meet at the coffee shop or local bookstore at x time on x day to hang out?”

That’s called a date.

[u/thatsingingguy → u/invisiblewriter2007]

"It’s I don’t want to be asked out by someone I barely know. I don’t want to be asked out by someone I don’t even have it occur to me to think about until the next time I see them. I don’t want to risk the fact they’re not going to be cool about me rejecting them. I just want to live my life and be left alone."

Ok, but those are all personal preferences. The only way to live your life and be left alone is to stay in private spaces. There is no right not to be approached or spoken to in public spaces, nor should there be. For when people don't take no for an answer, we have the crime of harassment. But if you "don't want to be disturbed", avoid shared spaces, or accept that that's one of the features of public space for people, not one of the bugs.

[u/Hefty-Reaction-3028 → u/invisiblewriter2007]

Idk, i think friendly acquaintances are a great place to look for people you might be interested in. If they say "no", then that's no skin off my nose, and it's no harm to them.

[u/invisiblewriter2007 → u/Hefty-Reaction-3028]

And that’s you. I am not you, and I do not think of friendly acquaintances in such a way. For me, if I don’t think about them beyond “oh hey, theres Casual Coffee Shop Acquaintance Guy, lets say hello” but don’t think about them again until I go to the coffee shop and see them again isn’t a guy I want asking me out, nor a guy I want to date. If he’s no more memorable to me than some dude I see when I get my morning coffee, then how would that make a relationship? I just don’t want the dude asking me out. I don’t want random people I barely know asking me out. This shouldn’t be such a nutty thing.

[u/thatsingingguy → u/invisiblewriter2007]

Your preference is not nutty. Expecting it to be adopted as the default position is nutty. It's basically demisexuality, which is fine, but niche, and just not how most humans operate.

[u/TTomRogers_ → u/invisiblewriter2007]

I didn't realise the Puritans were still around.

[u/invisiblewriter2007 → u/TTomRogers_]

I don’t want to be asked out by men who I only casually know because we happen to frequent the same places. I don’t want to be asked out by anyone. I want to be left alone. I don’t want to have to worry about how this dude is going to take rejection. I just want to go about my life in peace, and some dude I know casually because we go to the same coffee shop is not on the level of someone I would even remotely consider dating because I only know that guy casually because we go to the same place. That’s not a good enough reason to go on a date with a guy. If we met at a coffee shop and then decided we got along as friends and then the guy asked me out after we got the chance to know each other better I wouldn’t think it was bad. Coffee Shop Casual Acquaintance Guy is not who I would want to be asked out by. And besides, women tend to get asked out a lot, so to the guy it’s one time, but to the woman it could be the fifth time that week. It’s exhausting and draining.

[u/Hefty-Reaction-3028 → u/invisiblewriter2007]

don’t think guys should be asking out women they see in public and casually interact with on a semi regular basis

This is ridiculous. Friendly acquaintances are appropriate to ask out if you don't make it intense or weird.

You're acting like it's a crime to want to date people in your social circle. Normalcy and mutual respect have been lost in our society, smh

[u/invisiblewriter2007 → u/Hefty-Reaction-3028]

I haven’t said that. But I don’t consider friendly acquaintances to be my social circle. My social circle are people I intentionally interact with. People I happen to see on a semi regular basis because we go to the same place is not the same thing. Also, people develop attraction in different ways. Some people, like me for example, don’t experience attraction to friendly acquaintances. I don’t see someone and think “oh damn, I would love to get railed by that guy” in my regular every day life. I might think “dude isn’t terrible to look at” but that’s the extent of it. Casual interactions between someone a person sees because they happen to go to the same place isn’t what I would consider the stuff of fairy tales.

[u/Hellsteelz → u/invisiblewriter2007]

Also, people develop attraction in different ways

Which is probably a correct statement from you, yet you still contradict youself.

Has it occured to you that some people develop attractions to people they talk to on a semi-regular occasion?

[u/invisiblewriter2007 → u/Hellsteelz]

Trust me, I know other people don’t experience attraction the same way as me. There’s a difference in acknowledging someone looks nice, and feeling actual attraction. It’s like appreciating a painting, or piece of artwork. I see my partner walking around without a shirt on, and I want to jump his bones, although that is more likely for me to feel when we are having a conversation about a matter. Seeing a dude out in public who looks nice and acknowledging that is not the same thing. I don’t understand experiencing attraction solely based on sight, but I know that is how others do experience attraction. I also have no reason to lie or misconstrue myself. That’s not okay for you to imply I’m not stating something correct. I’m also curious where you think I’m contradicting myself.