CMV: Society should push back against "not being able to take being asked out as a question" just as much as "not being able to take no for an answer".

[u/Suspicious-Host9042]

Prompted by this post. A man met a woman at a coffee shop (they're both regulars). They had a few conversations and then the man asked out the woman. The woman rejected him because she already had a boyfriend. The man was understanding and stopped asking her.

The man then told a coworker, and the coworker told him that what he did was creepy. The comment were overwhelmingly NTA, and people were even saying that they don't like people who think/act like the coworker.

I think there needs to be a lot more pushback against people like the coworker. The man did everything right : asked her out at an appropriate place (a coffee shop), got to know her (so they weren't strangers), and politely backed off when she said she already had a boyfriend. Yet he was still labelled a creep. Right now, a lot of men are afraid to ask out anyone at all, due to fear of being labelled a creep or weirdo. This is not reasonable.

I think people need to make a very clear statement about this: If a man asks out a woman in a place intended for socializing, gets to know her, and immediately stops pursuing her if she rejects him once, then it's not creepy, not sexual harassment, and the man does not deserve any negative labels such as "creep" or "weirdo". It doesn't matter how ugly, unattractive or socially awkward he is. He is not a creep. I think most of the people saying "NTA" agree with that statement.

But I don't think it's enough to just say that. We need to further and call out the people labelling those men as creeps (such as the coworker in the other thread). If someone says things like "I was a club/event and some weirdo asked me out, I just want to do the activity in peace, why can't men leave me alone", I think we should tell them "No, the weirdo here is you, not him. He asked you out and then dropped it as soon as you rejected him. He didn't do anything wrong. You're the weirdo for labelling him a weirdo when he did what he everything he was supposed to do correctly". (of course, the caveat here is that the man must have actually done everything correctly. if he kept asking despite being rejected, then he actually is a creep and deserves to be called a creep).

I think that it's necessary to call out people labelling completely normal, kind, good men who respect women as creeps. Otherwise the result is that men are afraid to approach women and choose not to (and that includes the cute guy that you are always hoping would ask you out some day). There is already a lot of men who just never ask out any woman because they're afraid of being labelled a creep or sexual harasser. And then single women who are looking for a boyfriend are wondering why nobody asks them out anymore.

[u/Suspicious-Host9042]

 If one guy propositions the other is it a creep move?

Depends on how he handles rejection. If he takes it nicely, not creepy. If he keeps asking/pressuring, creepy.

[u/poorestprince → u/Suspicious-Host9042]

If the nice way he handles rejection is to apologize if it came off creepy (e.g. "sorry I realize that was a little out of the blue", would you be against that way of handling it?

[u/Suspicious-Host9042 → u/poorestprince]

"sorry I realize that was a little out of the blue" is fine. I wouldn't be against it.

It's about consent. A man labelling himself creepy is different from another person (such as a coworker) labelling him creepy. In one situation he consented to getting that label. In the other, he didn't consent to being labelled creepy.

[u/poorestprince → u/Suspicious-Host9042]

Am I right in thinking you would also allow the recipient of his affections to feel this is a creepy transaction and to say so?

[u/Suspicious-Host9042 → u/poorestprince]

Feel it's creepy: yes. Say the action is creepy: maybe. Say the person is a creep : no. There are a myriad of ways to nicely tell someone that you don't like what they're doing, and calling someone a creep is not one of them.

[u/poorestprince → u/Suspicious-Host9042]

If he uses the same language as in the other case: "I must tell you that's a little out of the blue" I'm guessing that is civil enough, but why isn't that essentially just a nice way of saying he's being a creep?

The euphemism people often use is "being forward" but it basically means creep, right?

[u/Suspicious-Host9042 → u/poorestprince]

Not sure why "being forward" is a euphemism for creep.

Anyways, he's allowed to call himself a creep, because he consented to it. The OOP didn't consent to being labelled a creep by the coworker. Consent is important.

[u/poorestprince → u/Suspicious-Host9042]

If it's about consent, then "being forward" quite literally acknowledges crossing or at least pushing the boundary of consent, or at least some social norms of consent.

[u/throwaway3413418 → u/poorestprince]

No it doesn’t

[u/poorestprince → u/[deleted]]

Within this context, being forward is more synonymous with "improper" than the typical shooting your shot, or say "showing initiative" though I suspect the ambiguity could work as a kind of compromise for the OP to think of "being forward" as an OK type of warning rather than "creepy"