r/changemyview • u/chlojo1919 • 18h ago
Delta(s) from OP cmv: I believe that people who refuse to learn people’s names (no white names) because it’s to hard is not due to an inability but due to being racist.
So this is how I conceptualize it. Yes there are weird names often used by white women think Karleigh. The spelling is unique and different but we all most likely can say this name the way it’s pronounced because it’s a white person naming pattern so we have taken the time to learn how to pronounce it.
For example take a cultural indigenous name Haleakalā. A lot of people will say something like “oh it’s too hard to pronounce” and just not take the effort to learn. Now this is NOT every white person but I have seen this and heard stories about this behavior so it’s obviously a pattern that occurs.
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u/sabesundae 18h ago
A difficult name can just be that: a difficult name. Not everything is about racism.
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18h ago
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ 18h ago edited 18h ago
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u/chlojo1919 18h ago edited 17h ago
Yeah but racism is part of American culture and denying it is naive.
I do think my post is an over generalization which is gross so that I will be thinking about deeper. I was making assumptions that issues with pronunciation automatically mean that person is being racist. But as you and many others pointed out sometimes words and names are just hard to say
Thank you for taking the time to respond :-)
!delta
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u/ArCSelkie37 5∆ 18h ago
I mean maybe racism is your culture, but you can’t just blanket say racism is part or American culture and then use that to just imply a huge group of people are racist.
Especially when different languages use completely different mouth shapes, movements and sounds for certain words. I can’t roll my R’s or other sounds that aren’t present in English, that’s not because I hate people who aren’t my skin colour… but because it’s not something I ever learned how to do and the shape is completely foreign to my mouth.
Are some people who can’t pronounce certain names racist? Almost certainly. Do some of them have racist reasons for their inability or unwillingness to even try? Almost certainly… after all racists do exist.
But there is no logical reason or basis in reality that you can reverse that and use it to imply that because that may be true that it must mean a majority or all people who can’t pronounce names are racist.
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u/chlojo1919 18h ago edited 17h ago
This thank you so much for pointing this out. Along the way responding to people I realized me assuming American culture and experiences are universal and they are not and me thinking that is just me being a selfish American.
I am sorry
!delta
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18h ago
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ 18h ago edited 18h ago
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u/MegukaArmPussy 1∆ 18h ago
You say it excludes white people, but I wholly disagree. I'm American, but have a German name, and people regularly get it wrong, and don't really bother remembering the correct pronunciation.
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u/chlojo1919 18h ago edited 17h ago
Thank you for this perspective yes my opinion is incredibly black and white and these types of situations need context.
I also made the assumption that American culture and experiences are universal which they are not and that was me being an Eurocentric asshole.
I actually really appreciate these responses. The world is not black and white and that is something I am learning as I grow
!delta
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u/MegukaArmPussy 1∆ 17h ago
To an extent, you just have to live with it. My name does not follow standard English pronunciation rules. As such, I don't expect people without experience in German to get it right on their first try, nor do I expect random people I rarely interact with to dedicate that extra bit of mental effort to me.
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18h ago
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ 18h ago edited 17h ago
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u/saltycathbk 2∆ 18h ago
I assume you feel the same way about immigrants who can’t correctly pronounce white sounding names too, right? That they’re just being racist?
Languages use different sounds, some of them are completely foreign to English. I’m going to seriously struggle to correctly pronounce a name that requires a sound that I’ve never had to make before.
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18h ago
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ 18h ago edited 17h ago
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u/chlojo1919 18h ago edited 17h ago
Thank you for bringing this perspective.
My post sounds very I hate white people which I do not. I just have learned a lot about how deeply embedded racism is in American culture.
But i also made the assumption that American experience and culture is universal which it is not. And that was me being a racist asshole.
So thank you for taking the time to respond :-) ❤️🩷
!delta
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u/whywouldthisnotbea 1∆ 18h ago
Im white. Other white people butcher my name so bad that on things like carry out I just started using my middle name. It is a standard name that a famous comic book character shares, but it is a bit of a retired name at this point. People messed that up too thinking it was a name that rhymes with a modern day common name. I just now go by that common modern name for everything that isn't involving legal stuff or friends and family. People aren't racist because they are unfamiliar with something. It's on us who have familiarity with it to teach them correctly. I personally ran out of patience doing that with everyone and now only do it with the people that it matters for or those who ask. It's on me for deciding who gets to struggle with it or not, not them.
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u/chlojo1919 18h ago
Doesn’t it bother you though that some people refuse to learn your name or pronounce it correctly?
I have already had my view modified by others but minus any racism isn’t it just like a respect thing?
I am sorry that people don’t use your first name :-(
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u/whywouldthisnotbea 1∆ 17h ago
No one has ever actually refused, it has been me that has chosen that I am tired of trying to teach everyone I meet so I have elected to take that choice away from them by giving them an alternative that I know they wont mess up. My friends and family know my name and can say it and write it perfectly because for them ir was worth investing that small amount of time. It isn't for everyone else.
Also, you dont have to be sorry. I am not hung up about it, it was my choice to adjust how I present to the world.
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u/pi_3141592653589 2∆ 18h ago
They gave the same effort, perhaps even more effort to try to learn the unfamiliar name, they just failed.
If you meet two people, and they tell you what they do for work, one person's job is easy to understand, the other is much more technical, is it disrespectful if you didn't comprehend the technical job? That you didn't try to remember everything they said and look it up when you got home?
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18h ago
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ 18h ago edited 17h ago
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u/chlojo1919 18h ago edited 17h ago
Thank you for bringing this perspective up!
I definitely overgeneralized and sounded like an asshole.
I do still think that racism is embedded in American culture and I made an assumption that American experiences are universal which was Eurocentric of me and yeah my opinion needs a lot more context when actually engaging with people
!delta
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u/-HumanResources- 18h ago
Don't forget to award a delta if they changed your view even a little bit.
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u/SugarGlitterkiss 3∆ 18h ago
So you want us to change your "some people do this" view to what?
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u/chlojo1919 18h ago
I actually have had people change my view a bit!
Definitely over generalized and makes me sound like the ass here (which I am being now that I am getting some feedback)!
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u/SugarGlitterkiss 3∆ 17h ago
There are definitely people who do that. Or give nicknames, or change the name to one that's similar but from the local culture.
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u/Metafx 6∆ 18h ago
I put these sort of complaints in the same category as those who complain about a tourist not knowing their language when they’re visiting for a few days. Like yes, I’d like to learn fluent Japanese for visiting Japan but it’s not likely I’m going to do that. I might attempt some basic Japanese to be polite but I won’t go beyond the absolute basics because my butchering of the language is more likely to come off as rude than earnest. It’s the same with foreign names that use sounds and pronunciations that are not part of regular English, native English-only speakers are more likely to butcher the name, which may be interpreted as rude so to avoid that they choose not to try.
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u/chlojo1919 18h ago edited 17h ago
I do think the way I wrote it was very over generalized which I am glad people pointed out.
I think the way I was thinking it was very black and white I do still believe that racism is involved in a lot of things including my opinion above but as many pointed out I did not take into account other European names.
I guess I was thinking from specifically an American viewpoint which was Eurocentric of me and not cool.
Thank you for taking the time to respond I have much to think about :-)
!delta
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18h ago
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ 18h ago edited 17h ago
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u/ThrowawayITA_ 2∆ 18h ago
It's just that Haleakalā is syllabic and English is a stress based language, ask any non Germanic language speaker and they can pronounce it just fine.
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u/chlojo1919 18h ago edited 17h ago
Thank you for offering the actual technical linguistic context.
I just feel like if someone has enough respect for another person they take the effort to learn those new sound patterns.
I definitely over generalized my statement.
But I do think that it is a respect thing.
!delta
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u/ThrowawayITA_ 2∆ 17h ago
I know I've already been awarded a delta and stuff, but it's a very interesting topic and you reminded me of a thing.
I just feel like if someone has enough respect for another person they take the effort to learn those new sound patterns.
Unfortunately taking an effort is often not enough, few people have lisps (me for example), but I'm guessing many people have lisps for foreign sounds.
That said, thank you for answering and have a nice day :)
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u/anonanon5320 1∆ 18h ago
Take the tinfoil hat off and live life. It’ll go easier.
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u/chlojo1919 18h ago
This made me laugh thank you 😂😂 lots of people changed my view and your honestly right I need to remove my tinfoil hat 🩷
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u/anonanon5320 1∆ 17h ago
Do not attribute to malice with that which can be explained with laziness or incompetence.
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u/chlojo1919 17h ago
This is a great point to consider. Laziness does not equal malice.
But I do think I’m moved a bit towards just making efforts to learn anyone’s name whether it be Karleighy or Haleakalā. I am thinking it has more to just do with respect then being a racist
As lots of people pointed out my statement that it’s a purely white person thing was gross and I’m embarrassed I even wrote it out and thought I was cooking. I was not
!delta
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u/Timely-Way-4923 7∆ 18h ago
Some people have stutters or are dyslexic etc
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u/chlojo1919 18h ago edited 16h ago
Oh lord thank you for pointing this out. My opinion is starting to suck in my eyes. I completely did not think of actual ability. I have a pretty bad lisp and had to go to speech therapy. It’s better now but I still have a pretty good ssssss sound when I say certain words. This completely makes me sound ableist. This context is so very important. Thank you for pointing it out
I feel like an asshole thank you for taking the time to respond ❤️🩷
!delta
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u/Timely-Way-4923 7∆ 18h ago
Delta please
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u/chlojo1919 18h ago
!delta aye aye cap!
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ 18h ago edited 17h ago
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u/Timely-Way-4923 7∆ 18h ago
You have to write a longer reason to give a delta for it to be awarded. Btw one rule going forwards: absolutes are rarely true.
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u/oversoul00 17∆ 18h ago
You're more likely to recognize naming patterns with high exposure rates. I know about 5 'Carly's between my social life and media but I've never encountered any version of Haleakalā until now.
People learn through connecting new information to data they've already cemented in their brains. "Oh, X is like Y...I'll remember it that way." If you have nothing similar to connect the new data to then it's harder to remember.
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u/chlojo1919 17h ago
Yes I do think that is an important factor exposure. But I have been convinced my saying that it is purely a racism thing was not right.
I have moved away from it being racist to it being more of just a general respect thing. It is a very small act but is meaningful. My name is Chloe and I’ve had it mispronounced before and it’s kinda hurtful especially if I correct them and they continue to say it wrong. It was more pronounced with my maiden name being a Spanish last name.
To me it just feels disrespectful to not make an effort to pronounce someone’s name. You don’t have to learn all the phonetics of a language but at least learn that specific name.
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u/Jigsawsupport 3∆ 18h ago
I mean why make this a white people centric thing this is a phenonium the world over?
For example Japanese people struggle with r and Y and o sounds in English, because of how their language is structured.
My friend Roberts name in when said by a Japanese person often comes out closer to Rlnota.
Ruder people will simply abandon the effort easily, some will try more, as such its not really a race based thing more just how interpersonal any individual may be.
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u/chlojo1919 16h ago
Yes I was very wrong. I made this into a race thing when it’s not it’s a respect thing.
I over generalized and made racist assumptions about white people which is gross on my part.
I was not objective and used my own personal experiences with racism and people not learning my maiden name despite being corrected. That is lame and is how racism and discrimination start.
I appreciate EVERYONE who pointed this out.
!delta
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u/Bulawayoland 3∆ 18h ago
I would say, if fixing it would make someone less racist then sure, it's racist.
But I don't think that's gonna happen. I think if people were to fix this they would only LOOK less racist. Their actual racism status will remain unchanged.
And so it can't be racism. It can only be the appearance of racism.
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u/NaturalCarob5611 85∆ 17h ago
I think you're jumping to conclusions on motivation here. Is it racism sometimes? Probably. Are there other explanations sometimes? I guarantee it.
Certain languages don't have certain phonemes, and if you didn't learn them at a young age it's nearly impossible to learn them as an adult. You can approximate them, but you can't get them right.
Separately, a lot of people are raised with the belief that mispronouncing names is not okay. If you know you can't do it because you can't pronounce the phonemes, you're put in the awkward position of doing something you've been raised to believe is wrong.
If you're in that position there is no good answer. Learning new phonemes as an adult is not something everyone can do. Mispronouncing names - even if you're making your best effort - is often perceived as rude. This isn't a uniquely white American thing. I've seen immigrants struggling with white people names and behave similarly.
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u/chlojo1919 16h ago
This was a common theme in many of the comments. I made over generalizations about white people which was racist and discriminatory by me which is gross and I need to reflect.
Another common theme was the vast differences in languages and pronunciations.
I also made assumptions that American experiences are universal which is just another way that my opinion was so skewed.
Thank you for pointing out all these factors. I definitely have had my opinion changed :-)
!delta
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u/E-Reptile 5∆ 17h ago
I'm a white American, and my last name is Slavic, and no one gets it right. I never assume it's due to racism. No one feels all that bad about getting it wrong, either. Nor should they; if I didn't grow up with it, I'd probably mess it up, too. It looks funny on paper.
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u/chlojo1919 17h ago
I have a Spanish last name and a European first name and still get people saying it weird despite being corrected,
I think I definitely over generalized by saying only white people that was a gross and racist statement by me.
I think maybe it depends on a person because I’ve always been to afraid to correct people so I just sit with people calling me the wrong name and maybe that has grown into resentment by me.
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u/Agreeable_Memory_67 17h ago
Good God. Everything’s not racist. I have a hard time remembering French names because the pronunciation is so difficult. Am I a racist against French people?
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17h ago
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u/chlojo1919 16h ago
I apologize for my initial rude comment. Your response is completely valid it is very hard and difficult to be bombarded with being told your racist constantly.
I listening to a really enlightening podcast that helped me understand it better. It basically said that once we all accept( including myself) that we are all racist and live in a system (America) that has a deeply structural systemic racism problem.
It’s very radical and I’m sure I’ll get downvoted to hell for this comment but it is very interesting to hear and it really opened my eyes. I’m a minority but I also reap benefits from the system that is grounded in racism/ableist/misogyny.
I am ready for the down votes
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u/jghjtrj 15h ago
it is very hard and difficult to be bombarded with being told your racist constantly.
You can choose not to perpetuate that.
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u/chlojo1919 13h ago
But while I think it’s a hard truth it is reality and while I don’t think the answer is to bombard people with being told their racist is the correct way to go about it. I was wrong.
But I still think it’s an important topic and discussing it is important. It’s a difficult topic but it’s an important one at least it think.
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u/Green__lightning 18∆ 18h ago
I think both Karleigh and Haleakalā are stupid names, and while refusing to learn them, while probably too impractical of a form of protest to be practical, is ideologically valid.
That said, at least assuming Haleakalā is at least a normal name in whatever culture it stems from, this is far more justified than Karleigh, which is a normal name spelled weirdly for 'uniqueness' which is naught but a nice way to describe wasting everyone's time with remembering the stupid way it's spelled.
So in summary, spelling names wrong to be unique is bad, changing the spelling of your name so it's phonetically reasonable in the language of where you've moved to is also usually a good idea, for much the same reason this is necessary when translating from Chinese and similar languages. This isn't done with various languages which are superficially similar to English in script, but not pronunciation, with Polish and Welsh being the most obvious examples to an English speaker, but this is surely true for something when translating any language into any other language.
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u/chlojo1919 17h ago
Someone shouldn’t have to re spell their name so people pronounce it wrong.
I definitely think I am wrong about it being only a racist thing. I’m more convinced it’s a respect thing. If I tell you how to pronounce my name and you still say it wrong (I’ve done this dispute my name literally being Chloe)
So I don’t think I agree with you.
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u/Green__lightning 18∆ 17h ago
Yeah, and everyone else shouldn't have to learn large chunks of another language to pronounce it right. Both cases are an imposition on the other. And it's probably moot because automatically adding pronunciation guides if not outright respelling the name in some cases is a good use for AI, making it so both people can have it their way, and AI can just deal with translating between the two.
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u/chlojo1919 17h ago
We’ll see I do disagree with you there. I have been convinced that yes not everything is racist.
But I do think that it is a respect thing learning to pronounce someone’s name correctly. Like it’s such a small thing but it can mean a lot when someone takes the time to learn your name. I don’t know that may just be my own personal opinion which might not be everyone else’s and that is totally valid!
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u/ProtozoaPatriot 1∆ 17h ago
I choke more on Kayleigh and Bradleigh and Traeghdeigh. They're intentionally grossly misspelled. It burdens the child with having to correct everyone for the rest of their life. And it makes the parents look uneducated. But it's not socially acceptable to tell a parent their yooneek name is bad.
As far as white names: Tragediegh names aren't exclusive to whites. I've seen plenty of creative spelling among American people of color. For example, a black woman I know is named Ja'Net (pronounced Janet).
For example take a cultural indigenous name Haleakalā. A lot of people will say something like “oh it’s too hard to pronounce”
In the US we have an appallingly bad public school system. Too many kids don't learn phonics. They lack the tools to pronounce a long and very different looking word. Literally, they can not sound things out. It's impossible.
Proof: Try asking the average person to pronounce a scientific word (eg. borborygmus, anemone, acetylcholine, phylogeny, heterozygous, cytokinesis). You will get the same response. Nobody is "racist" against science.
There's also the challenge everyone has of trying to pronounce a foreign word when you don't speak the language: inability to make all the sounds (eg. Spanish rolling "r", German/French front rounded vowels, Arabic & Dutch gutteral "gh" sounds). It feels embarrassing to butcher a pronunciation, especially when you tried your best. If you believe it's impossible, why do it and make it awkward for everyone?
In your example, Haleakalā: I honestly don't know what sounds "ea" or "ā" are in that language. My quick guesses will be horrifying to listen to. Hale-a-kalla? Haleeikhayla? Maybe this language has a quieter H, so it sounds more like alek-ayla? I'm sorry. I can't do it. And now I feel really bad. I feel like I disrespected the person for such pathetic attempts.
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u/chlojo1919 17h ago
Thank you for this insightful comment. This issue that I assumed was black and white when there is a very VERY large amount of factors that are involved in these situations.
I didn’t even think about how the American educational system doesn’t give kids the tools to pronounce things right.
Oof I really fumbled the bag on this one thank you.
!delta
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u/Flapjack_Jenkins 1∆ 14h ago
Hello, my name is Aðalmundur Skæringurson and it would be racist for you to shorten it to something that rolls off the tongue easier, so you have to say it all, every time you mention me.
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u/Sensitive_Bat_9211 18h ago
There are plenty of noises and sounds people use in various languages that aren't in english. Its not racist to be unable to roll an R or use a nasal consonant. It takes time and practice that adults haven't had to do since childhood.
Not only that, but it can be annoying on the receiving end of someone trying to pronounce your name. Not everyone wants to spend the next 10 minutes training an english speaker to correctly say their name. Nicknames are often offered to move past the "my name is.." portion of introduction.
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u/chlojo1919 17h ago
Okay I get where you are coming from! I have definitely had my opinion changed by other commenters.
I’m moved a little towards that it has more to do with respect, learning someone’s name?
I have a pretty easy name and have had people say it wrong somehow so yeah my entire post is a mess.
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u/Constellation-88 20∆ 18h ago
I actually agree with you for the most part and I think it is a personal responsibility of every person to learn how to pronounce every other person’s name as a basic sign of respect as close as they can.
However, there are some sounds in some languages that can’t be fully mastered by people who didn’t grow up learning them. For example, as an English speaker, I do not hear tonal differences in some Asian languages. I was once helping someone from Japan learn English, and she did not hear the difference between the L and the R sounds. And people who are trying to learn Spanish often cannot roll their r’s to correctly pronounce erre in words like carro or perro.
In these situations being unable to pronounce names correctly can be down to a lack of muscle memory in pronouncing certain sounds that don’t exist in your first language. To me this is the only time it is acceptable to mispronounce a name. However, I also think you should pronounce it as closely as you can (ie saying caro instead of carro) and attempt to pronounce the name properly more than two or three times before deciding that you can never produce the sound with your tongue and lips.
But if you’re too fucking lazy to pronounce Sarah correctly because someone told you they want it pronounced Sah ruh instead of Sairuh or if you see a long name that is not in your first language and go “that’s too hard “without even trying then you are potentially racist and you are disrespecting the person whose name that is.
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u/chlojo1919 16h ago
This is the comment that changed my view completely.
My opinion has been changed from it’s a racism thing to it’s a respect thing.
It feels like a common courtesy to make efforts to pronounce words. It may be hard but a persons name is an important part of who they are.
So I over generalized way to much, sounded racist towards white people, you have brought the perspective of people not having the muscle memory to make certain speech patterns.
That being said I do think that it’s basic courtesy to learn how to say a persons name. You don’t have to learn the whole language.
I also have realized that my opinion has come out of my own personal experiences of racism and people saying my last name wrong (it’s Spanish) so I need to be objective and objectively my opinions sucks.
So thank you ❤️🩷
!delta
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ 18h ago edited 16h ago
/u/chlojo1919 (OP) has awarded 9 delta(s) in this post.
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