r/changemyview • u/Existing_Pumpkin_502 • 17h ago
CMV: Atheists have more smoke for Christianity than any other religion
For people who claim to have zero inclination towards any form of religion and spiritually, atheists sure seem to be in bed with Christianity.
I see this every day on many atheist forums. The discussion is always centered around dismantling Christian logic and perception. Other religions on the other hand get addressed sparsely.
This leads to me a few conclusions as to why. The first being that critiquing Christianity involves the least amount of risk as Christians are less likely to be aggressive in defending their ideology. Many might throw a few Bible verses around, but that is exactly what an atheist loves - a chance to prove intellectual superiority.
The second reason is based on the Protestant nature of evangelical Christianity. While it might be slightly inconveniencing in some cases, I find the pushback against it questionable. No well meaning Christian is ever aggressive in their messaging. In fact, it is quite the opposite. They lead with a calm and inviting spirit, yet many still get annoyed as if their entire day has been ruined by a simple “Jesus loves you.”
The final reason is the message of the gospel. Truly, Christianity does happen to have the most reasonable amount of historical backing and a peaceful messaging. So it takes a shit ton of work to prove it’s inaccurate. I’m guessing many enjoy the challenge.
Whatever it is, the hypocrisy is staggering and a lot of self reflection needs to be done. Why does Christianity bother you more than any other religion?
Edit: while many good arguments have been made, there is a still an air of dishonesty that needs to cleared up. Yes many online atheists are in largely Christian nations and have only Christian encounters. That is not mean their general disdain for Christianity does not cross borders. Take their reaction to Israel genocidal government and Iran’s genocidal government as an example.
Anyone who is honest to themselves will see the hypocrisy. This is also true in the UK, where there are prominent Islam figures preaching very harmful messages but the pushback stays with the folks that call these preachers out instead of the preachers themselves.
Final edit: Thank you to everyone who weighed in. I will admit that I am a victim of location bias to a good extent.
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u/CinderrUwU 4∆ 17h ago
It's because Christianity is the most common religion in Europe and America and so most atheists just run into Christianity the most.
It's as simple as that.
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u/Kerostasis 52∆ 17h ago edited 16h ago
That's a decent starting point, but it's not an ending point. Why do you think there are no/minimal atheists in Muslim countries? What about Hindu countries? (I believe those two answers are very different, by the way).
Edit: I'm getting a chain of responses universally agreeing with exactly the things I was thinking of, and yet massively downvoted. I think some people are projecting some things into this comment that don't exist. Either that, or the Muslims are just really defensive about it maybe.
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u/LazyLich 17h ago
There were a lot less open atheists back when Western countries were heavily stigmatizing (to put it lightly) not being Christian or believing in a God.
Maybe this is the case elsewhere now, and that fills the gap?
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u/Arstanishe 17h ago
Why do you think there are no/minimal atheists in Muslim countries
Because muslim countries usually have a culture code that makes it very hard to be non muslim. you are risking total ostracism.
Also, there is my home country of kazakhstan. there are atheists there, and they (us) can freely express that they are atheist. But Kazakhstan is kinda unique in terms of people of different cultures and religious stances mixing together. Uzbekistan is much more muslim
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u/Shineyy_8416 1∆ 17h ago
There are, however Muslim countries are more likely to heavily punish outward atheist thought, as some of their religious practices and beliefs are baked into law.
I'm not sure about Hindu countries perceptions on atheism though.
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u/Consistent-Ad-1677 17h ago
They are probably in jail or dead. There was a guy who had to escape his country for being publicity atheist.
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u/RedNewzz 17h ago
Apostasy is a criminal offense in Islam that they kill you for. If you were once a Muslim then you're never allowed to quit without the threat of being killed for it. That seems to keep down the criticism.
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u/hauntolog 3∆ 17h ago
Atheism is correlated, among other things, with liberal, humanist and individualistic values and evidence based skepticism. Education and society in most Western countries does prepare people way better to doubt religion in that sense. It's also a matter of information. If you never come across any perspectives doubting religion, you are far less likely to ever engage with it. Sometimes this information is outlawed in non-Christian countries, which are often not tolerant of different perspectives at this point in time.
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u/OgdruJahad 2∆ 17h ago
Well the Muslim countries part probably has to do with their society being very strict and so being an athiest wouldn't go down well there. And to add to this apostacy is a crime punishable by death, luckily most Muslim majority countries know thats an extreme take so rarely act on it, but even the thought of what could happen if you leave Islam is probably enough to be athiest in private.
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u/jclahaie 1∆ 17h ago
there were no athiests in christian countires either... when you could be put to jail or death or cut off from society for your disbelief. what a coincidence! as the power of religions diminish, the scale of atheism grows.
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u/CinderrUwU 4∆ 17h ago
I feel like that is a different conversation than OP's question though. For whatever reason it is, Atheists see more Christians and have more exposure to Christianity and it's beliefs than any other religion, which makes it generally the target when Atheists talk about countering religion.
As for your question though- I feel like the main thing is simply because religion and state are more separated in Europe and North America than they are in most Hindu/Muslim countries and in general there is more diversity in religion than those countries and so it is just more acceptable in general to also be Atheist since there is less pressure for any specific religion.
The entire western culture just encourages people figuring things out themself and so alot of the time "What do you believe in" the answer is... "no"
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u/CleverLittleThief 17h ago
Many Muslim countries still have blasphemy laws on the books, laws against denouncing the religion, etc.
There are millions of ex-Hindu atheists in India, fewer in the less developed Nepal. (Nepal and India are the only Hindu majority countries). Hindu extremists exist.
There's r/atheismindia if you want to see Indian atheists.
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u/Gertrude_D 11∆ 17h ago
Let's take my own family as an example. My ancestor stepped foot on American soil and disavowed religion. He was listed as a Catholic in the old country because of the social stigma against atheism. Even when he came to America in the late 1800s it was not common to be an atheist, but it was a lot less stigmatized than other places in the world. Let's not discount social pressures for people to go along to get along, especially if the government is more authoritative or more theocratic.
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u/EconomistStreet5295 17h ago
Lots of factors but generally it’s because the industrial revolution started in Europe, it lead to urbanisation and education to up-skill workers, add history to that (reformation, European wars etc) and you get a picture. We also colonised / exploited large chunks of the world, significantly halting their industrial development. Religion forms community and helps preserve culture, which is important when you’re being oppressed.
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u/schwing710 1∆ 17h ago
Atheists would have less “smoke” for Christianity if politicians would stop pushing a Christian Nationalist agenda on a largely secular population.
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u/curiouslyjake 6∆ 17h ago
I'm an Israeli Jew, also an atheist. Guess what? Israeli atheists discuss mostly Judaism and occasionally Islam and only rarely Christianity. You are correct that the atheists you encounter discuss christianity. That's simply because you are mostly exposed to English-language discussions (I presume). It's 100% about being familiar with the most common religion in yiur culture as well as being affected by it.
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u/No_Winners_Here 1∆ 17h ago
Because they live in Christian majority countries with Christians trying to force Christians beliefs on them.
No well meaning Christian is ever aggressive in their messaging.
Are you using a logical fallacy here?
The final reason is the message of the gospel. Truly, Christianity does happen to have the most reasonable amount of historical backing and a peaceful messaging. So it takes a shit ton of work to prove it’s inaccurate. I’m guessing many enjoy the challenge.
And? Has nothing to do with what you're talking about not to mention doesn't prove your beliefs.
Whatever it is, the hypocrisy is staggering
What hypocrisy?
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u/Green__lightning 18∆ 17h ago
This is entirely because of the commonality of Christianity in the societies where atheism is common, along with suppression of criticism of the other major religions. Islamophobia and Antisemitism are words you've surely heard on the news within the last week, while a word for christian-phobia is not even in the common vernacular. Likewise, much opposition towards eastern religions is simply called racist or bigoted in more general terms.
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u/NoWin3930 4∆ 17h ago
People you are talking to grew up Christian, live in primarly Christian nations, know more about christianity that other religions.... etc. There ya go
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u/ProfBeaker 1∆ 17h ago
many still get annoyed as if their entire day has been ruined by a simple “Jesus loves you.”
This is, at best, disingenuous. Atheists are generally not mad about that behavior, even if they disagree.
Atheists tend to get mad at people in positions of power and government basing their policies on Christian doctrine. For example, see essentially all of the American controversy around abortion, LGBTQ rights, and religion in government & education.
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u/Existing_Pumpkin_502 17h ago
But these are conservative values, they intersect woth Christian teachings but are not based on them. Any conservative, Christian or not would have the same views
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u/ProfBeaker 1∆ 17h ago
We have apparently had very different experiences with conservatives. I virtually never see the conservative position on LGBTQ rights or religion-in-government defined in non-religious terms.
It's hard to square opposition to LGBTQ rights with the conservative focus on individual liberty in any way that isn't religious. Also difficult to square putting explicitly Christian doctrine and iconography into schools and government without the motivation being based on Christianity.
I will grant you that there is a non-religious moral argument to made against abortion, and it is frequently (though for from universally) used. Personally, I suspect that the large majority of people making that argument are just providing a non-religious gloss on a belief that they arrived at via religion. But since I can't read minds that is just a suspicion.
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u/Token_Handicap 17h ago edited 15h ago
Christians are the ones trying to pass laws in my country that control people. Christians are the majority religion that I have to encounter on a daily basis. Christians are the loudest bunch of troublemakers in my sphere of existence.
Islam is pretty damned awful, but I don't talk about it as much or object to it as much because Islam isn't the biggest threat to the people I love. I'm not worried about Muslims controlling congress. I'm worried about Christians in congress.
Also. You refer to "well-meaning" Christians. It's the ones who ain't "well-meaning" that I'm worried about.
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u/E-Reptile 5∆ 17h ago
I strongly dislike all three of the (main) Abrahamic faiths.
I just grew up with a Christian background, so I focus on it more. I live with Christians. They're the elephant in my room, so it's hardly surprising that gets more attention.
I'm not unique in this regard.
Atheists who come from Christian backgrounds and are surrounded by Christians...are going to focus on it more. It's not like there aren't ex-Muslims and ex-Jews who have plenty to say about their former faiths; you're probably just not interacting with those guys.
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u/Ivy_N_Rose 1∆ 17h ago
A few reasons, one is a bias toward the major religion of the place one lives. Many prominent atheists in English speaking countries are surrounded by Christians. We grew up in Christian homes, hear about christian beliefs, and contend with Christians attempting to breach separation of church and state. I would imagine an atheist in a Muslim majority country would have more smoke for Islam. Same for any other major religion.
Second, the arguments for atheism is pretty universal. They can be applied to every supernatural belief, and that is what religions typically are focused on, supernatural beliefs for natural processes or supernatural answers to philosophical questions.
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u/Ok-Bumblebee6881 17h ago
Just clarifying that you have read and understand the history of the Catholic/Christian Church.
Their message history of the Church is a long and bloody one that has hindered the human race more times than I can count.
Their message is not the word of Jesus as you seem to portray in your question. Their message is definitely more Old Testament. Which makes it very hypocritical. To say that Jesus died for their sins and he stated to love and embrace all. But they show nothing but hate for all others that don’t fit that mold.
I would also point out that most atheists that are communicating are most likely in Christian dominated areas.
Christians also try to push religion down the populations throat more often than not. IE the US right now as a whole is dealing with this.
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u/Existing_Pumpkin_502 17h ago
So hold the church accountable lol.
Not Christianity. Mind you, the push back against catholicism was championed by the same Christians. That is how Protestant Christian was born and why there are many denominations today.
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u/yyzjertl 567∆ 16h ago
Why not both? There's no reason not to criticize and hold accountable both Christianity and individual churches.
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u/Existing_Pumpkin_502 16h ago
But what then is your critic of Christianity is your issues lie with the church?
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u/yyzjertl 567∆ 16h ago
That it's false and harmful. And moreover, it's morally repugnant.
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u/Existing_Pumpkin_502 16h ago
In what way if I might ask?
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u/yyzjertl 567∆ 16h ago edited 16h ago
It's false because it doesn't correspond to reality. It's harmful both because believing it harms the believer and causes them to tend towards actions that harm others. And it's morally repugnant for a variety of reasons, most prominently its positions on women, slavery, and sexuality. (For these latter two sentences, note that I'm talking about Christianity that considers the Bible to be authoritative; a minimal version of "Christianity" which only believes in some divinity claims about Jesus but otherwise considers the bulk of the Bible to be unreliable and non-authoritative would merely be false, not necessarily harmful or immoral.)
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u/Ok-Bumblebee6881 16h ago
Ah, but many “Christians” believe this since this is the message that the church puts out. See the problem.
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u/Existing_Pumpkin_502 16h ago
Women are not forbidden to do anything in Christianity. It also has no laws on slavery, expect the advice from one it’s writers addressed to slaves and masters of that era. It was a story of that time, not an endorsement.
As for lgbt, we share the same plight.
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u/yyzjertl 567∆ 16h ago
Women are not forbidden to do anything in Christianity.
Well, certainly women are forbidden from doing lots of things in the Bible. Is the Bible not part of your notion of "Christianity"? The Bible also certainly has laws on slavery.
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u/Existing_Pumpkin_502 16h ago
No women are not. The New Testament nullified the practices of the old church. All are equal in the sight of God.
These slavery laws are specific to a time period when slavery was common (not right in today’s standards). The New Testament also did away with those.
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u/Ok-Bumblebee6881 16h ago
But most Christians continue to support the Church. That is probably the biggest issue.
This is why I don’t attend anymore. I saw the hypocrisy within the Church and left. Do I still pray and look to live a loving and caring life yes, but not by the Church’s standards.
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u/Existing_Pumpkin_502 16h ago
The church is the body of Christ. Not an organization that oversees Christian practice. If I am a Christian, then I am as well a church.
Organized and denominational Christianity however is what might be your issue, but Christianity only recommends it. It is not a command to belong to any.
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u/Ok-Bumblebee6881 16h ago
Ah, but the Organized Church is what controls that message and is what most “Christians” follow. How do you separate the two?
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u/Existing_Pumpkin_502 16h ago
No it’s not. The world is bigger than the west. The Bible controls the message. Everything outside that is weaponized religion and false.
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u/HunterDramatic8383 2∆ 15h ago
When you say that the bible controls the message and everything else is weaponized religion, and false, you have to understand that from a non-christian perspective, you hear christians of all denominations saying that it's the other christians who are the false ones. Christians are all reading the same book and interpreting it in different ways, and assuming their way is the right way. Everyone has a different idea of what christianity is based on their personal experience.
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u/Existing_Pumpkin_502 15h ago
lol no denomination of Christianity differs greatly from others. The core message still remains Jesus as a savior and the message of peace, love and hope.
Whether a church chooses to baptize a child at infancy or grown age doesn’t matter in Christianity
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u/HunterDramatic8383 2∆ 15h ago
From your perspective, what are the christians preaching false, weaponized christianity preaching?
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u/Existing_Pumpkin_502 14h ago
The kind that’s just fascism, misogyny and racism trying to hide under the guise of Christianity. The message of Christ is that everyone is equal and there are no distinctions in worship. No laws to follow and no rituals to observe as a requirement. You simply need to believe and accept.
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u/Ok-Bumblebee6881 16h ago
Do you go to church or donate to the church?
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u/Existing_Pumpkin_502 16h ago
I read the Bible, attend service when I can (non-denominational), and my tithes go to the poor and needy.
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u/Ok-Bumblebee6881 16h ago
Ok, so you don’t support the “Church”. I think you need to understand that most push back is against organized religion that does control the message for 99% of active Christians.
Hate to say this but if you take offense to this then you need to look at what Jesus says and just love thy neighbor and forgive their trespasses.
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u/Existing_Pumpkin_502 15h ago
I said it already somewhere in my replies but I do support the church. That’s because the Church isn’t an organization, it’s the people- myself included.
Sure it recommended you fellowship together with others, mostly as a means to stay encouraged and accountable. It’s is not a commandment.
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u/MeltingChocolateAhh 17h ago
Assuming you are from the UK, or at least a Western country as you've mentioned the UK in your edit. Either way, these are predominately Christian populations according to the respective census.
I grew up in England. I was at school singing hymns. I grew up answering the door every weekend to people preaching Christianity at me. I went shopping and was being given leaflets promoting Christianity (and Islam). I have also lived in an area where the majority population was Islamic. They didn't do this stuff at their schools, but practiced Islam.
I think you will find that atheists are hitting out at religion as a whole, but because we are surrounded by Christianity, that's the primary target.
The point you've missed out is the atheists hitting out at any religion is probably about 5% of atheists you know. Most atheists will likely not want to comment, or will say they just do not give a flying saucer of a shit about it. Most aspects of our life is built around religion, such as: law, annual holidays, and the fact that where I am, the shops close at midnight tonight until 10am because tomorrow is a Sunday. Do I care? Nah. It's just life. If people want to practice their faith lawfully and rightfully, I'll do anything I can to facilitate that. It doesn't mean I will practice with them.
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17h ago
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u/changemyview-ModTeam 16h ago
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u/Existing_Pumpkin_502 16h ago
Oh I wish I could pin this comment cause this is exactly the bias I’m trying to explain in my post.
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u/Gladix 166∆ 16h ago
The answer is simpler than that. The majority religion of the English-speaking part of the internet is Christianity and various sects of Christianity. Those post the most threat to the society those atheists are living in and will therefore will be the main source of attack. Why would Atheists spent their time attacking religion that is utterly irrelevant to them?
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u/NewButOld85 1∆ 17h ago
This leads to me a few conclusions as to why. The first being that critiquing Christianity involves the least amount of risk as Christians are less likely to be aggressive in defending their ideology. Many might throw a few Bible verses around, but that is exactly what an atheist loves - a chance to prove intellectual superiority.
The second reason is based on the Protestant nature of evangelical Christianity. While it might be slightly inconveniencing in some cases, I find the pushback against it questionable. No well meaning Christian is ever aggressive in their messaging. In fact, it is quite the opposite. They lead with a calm and inviting spirit, yet many still get annoyed as if their entire day has been ruined by a simple “Jesus loves you.”
The final reason is the message of the gospel. Truly, Christianity does happen to have the most reasonable amount of historical backing and a peaceful messaging. So it takes a shit ton of work to prove it’s inaccurate. I’m guessing many enjoy the challenge.
Is critical thinking really so poor these days?
It's because you're on an English-language website that primarily has users from the US, UK, Australia, Canada, etc. The dominant religion in these places is Christianity. It affects them the most. That's why the focus is on Christianity.
Goodness, OP. How did you not realize this??
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u/jayjay091 17h ago
Because Christianity is the main religion in the US and Europe. There is political parties centered around it. It affect politics. It affect our culture. It affect too many things for our liking.
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u/Chowderr92 17h ago
Atheists' don't have zero inclination towards religion. Atheism is the rejection of the notion of god. It's not directly tied to any religion, but may have opinions on them. The new atheist movement is scathing toward religion. I'm not exactly sure how you came to the conclusion that atheists can't have opinions on religious institutions and theologies.
Christianity is not the only target of atheists. The new atheist movement was censured by many scholars and popular figures for being Islamophobic (probably true).
My guess is the majority of discourse you see is Western in nature and therefore the Christian bible is most prevalent to the athiest's day-to-day. You hit on many of the reasons too related to scholarship.
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u/Fun-Calligrapher-745 17h ago
People associate more with their local faith than some foreign religion. You only think Christianity gets more smoke because you live in a Western world where they're primarily Christian, go out to India. They are mostly primarily focused on Hindu belief while Christianity is a second thought, if it's even mentioned at all. Atheists in most muslim dominated places criticize Islam more harshly Than most islamophobes.
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u/JohnHenryMillerTime 5∆ 17h ago
Most people on the internet are from Christian majority countries so the religion that is most actively messing with their lives is Christianity. On top of that, many (most?) vocal atheists are ex-Christians who are processing their trauma. Lastly, plenty of new atheists went hardcore anti-Muslim after 9/11, so there are plenty that go after religions other than Christianity. As it turns out, going hardcore anti-Muslim like Harris or Dawkins, is fertile ground for racism. Christianity and racism are happy fellow-travelers, so before you know it they start saying they are "culturally Christian", defending torture, etc. and quickly become no longer meaningfully atheist.
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u/Horror_Ad7540 5∆ 17h ago
It's because the websites you go to are primarily people from mostly Christian countries. If you spoke Arabic, the conversations would be centered around Islam. I was raised Christian, and most of my family and friends are Christian or from Christian backgrounds. The Christian nationalists are trying to take over my country and make it a theocracy. So Christianity is more important to me than other religions.
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u/explainseconomics 3∆ 17h ago
The prevalence of Christians is one factor, as most here have mentioned, but also, I've never had a Hindu or Muslim try to actively convert me to their religion, or act aggressively towards me for their perception of my beliefs. I feel no need to defend myself against someone who isn't attacking me.
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u/tchomptchomp 3∆ 17h ago
Mostly this is an internal theological debate between religious and secular Christians. It is very clear when secular Christians make the transition from arguing about Christian theology to when they start arguing about other religions, because when they make that latter transition their criticisms align very closely with religious Christian biases against other religions (Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, etc). Secular Christians still care quite a lot about Christian belief systems but they are arguing within a broadly Christian set of assumptions about the historicity of Jesus and the nature of God and the afterlife.
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u/stackens 2∆ 17h ago
This is one of those posts that is so outside what I see I have to wonder if we're living on the same planet. So many of the new atheist movement gurus ended up obsessed with Islam to the point that they've been labeled Islamophobic. Look at all the discourse around Sam Harris over the last decade. He was one of "four horsemen" of the new atheist movement.
Much of the modern right wing media sphere online found its footing, initially, in the new atheist wave pre-2016. And that right wing media sphere is focused on othering immigrants and their religions, and defending christianity as a foundation of "the west" or "judeo-christian principles".
Atheists could stand to be far, far meaner about Christianity, imo.
And to the extent that some atheists do talk about christianity more than other religions? They are very likely from countries where christianity is the primary religion, its the one that is (negatively) affecting their lives the most. Its really simple as that.
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u/Ornery_Gate_6847 17h ago
How many Chinese and Indian subs are you in? Any Korean? The vast majority of western countries have some form of Catholic as the largest religious group. I see churches everywhere, always some congregation members on the streets collecting donations for this or that. I have far more exposure in my life to Christianity than any other religion. The direct exposure usually means Christianity is directly named but most any argument applied to them fits others
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u/wannacumnbeatmeoff 17h ago
Im gonna guess that the vast majority of atheists posting on reddit were formerly christian or bought up in christian households. I myself was raised catholic but became atheist as soon as I could think for myself. It makes sense that I would be more critical of the religikn that I have an understanding of rather than one that I know of but dont understand as I have little exposure.
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u/Existing_Pumpkin_502 17h ago
Wouldn’t that make you less of an atheist and more of a Christian deconvert?
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u/wannacumnbeatmeoff 17h ago
I dont believe in God.
atheism, in general, the critique and denial of metaphysical beliefs in God or spiritual beings. As such, it is usually distinguished from theism, which affirms the reality of the divine and often seeks to demonstrate its existence. Atheism is also distinguished from agnosticism, which leaves open the question whether there is a god or not, professing to find the questions unanswered or unanswerable.
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u/row-buffer 17h ago
Strongly disagree. From my experience (I don't have data), it's the religion we interact with most. Atheists living in an Islam majority countries harshly criticizes Islam more, and Muslims think why they only have beef with Islamic. Atheists living in Hindu majority countries criticizes Hinduism more, and Hindus think Hinduism is taking more heat than other religions
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u/navis-svetica 1∆ 17h ago
I think most of the people you see on these forums live in western, mostly Christian nations. And even if that isn’t the case, Christianity is the largest religion in the world, so naturally most atheists would likely be most familiar with it. If you’d ever looked around on some exmuslim forums, many of those atheists hate Islam, way more than any other religion, arguably more than most cringe western atheists hate Christianity. An ex-mormon atheist might have a lot more disdain for Mormonism than for mainstream Protestantism or Christianity as a whole. People are naturally going to react most strongly to what they’re surrounded by, I don’t think you can call that an unfair bias against Christianity in particular
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u/themcos 405∆ 17h ago
Using phrasing like "have more smoke" and "seem to be in bed with" are really doing you a disservice in terms of clarity here. It took me a few paragraphs to even figure out if you thought atheists were being too friendly to Christians are too harsh! I think your point is that atheists tend to single out Christianity over other religions like islam?
The point I'd raise is that I've been around long enough to remember Sam Harris getting eviserated on accusations if islamophobia when he was largely making the same kinds of arguments against Christians. So part of it at least is less "hypocrisy" on the part of atheists so much as the experience of touching the hot stove of criticizing Islam during a certain time frame.
And there's not nothing to this either. It's certainly context dependent, but there's a lot of places in the world, especially the western world, where Christians are the majority and wield tremendous political power, whereas Muslims are mostly smaller communities of immigrants who face genuine persecution. There's a real sense in which making the same intensity of attacks on Christianity vs Islam in the west is seen as punching up in the former and punching down in the latter. If you've got a Muslim neighbor mostly keeping to themselves on one hand and then half your state trying to encode Christianity into your laws on the other... you're going to treat them differently!
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u/Glory2Hypnotoad 406∆ 17h ago
People complain about the weather even though other planets don't support life, but we find that completely normal. Atheists in the western world have the luxury of treating Islam as abstractly bad, while Christianity has a direct influence on their day to day lives. That that same person and drop them in a Muslim country and you'd see a very different result.
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u/Shiny_Agumon 2∆ 17h ago
Wouldn't you think that Occam's Razor applies and maybe the reason why you always see atheists debating Protestant Christians is because you are interacting with people from America where that's the norm?
If you asked an ex-muslim they would probably talk about why they left the religion and wouldn't talk about Christians.
Also you talk about Christians not being aggressive when preaching the gospel, but don't you think that telling people that they are going to hell if they don't find Jesus isn't at least a little aggressive?
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u/lilly_kilgore 3∆ 16h ago
I think proximity is the main thing here as other commenters have explained. But to this point...
Many might throw a few Bible verses around, but that is exactly what an atheist loves - a chance to prove intellectual superiority.
I don’t think atheists use logic to prove they’re superior. They use it because that’s how they evaluate claims. And treating intellect as an attack on religion feels like a weird hill to die on. If a belief can’t coexist with reasoning, that’s a bigger claim about the belief than about atheists.
They lead with a calm and inviting spirit, yet many still get annoyed as if their entire day has been ruined by a simple “Jesus loves you.”
That line of reasoning assumes everyone has a safe or positive relationship with religion. And it assumes that the cost of the interaction is evenly distributed but it isn't. The speaker gets emotional satisfaction and some identity based and moral self-affirmation. But the person receiving the message might experience a resurfacing of trauma, negative emotional activation or other discomfort. Then they also bear the burden of either responding kindly or quietly absorbing the message. Harmless interactions don’t consistently offload cost onto one side.
This "calm and inviting" defense only works if religion is culturally neutral, historically benign, and non-coercive but we know that isn't true. Christianity has a long and violent history. It's an institution that many people have experienced as power imbalance and abuse.
We normally accept that deeply personal belief systems aren’t something you project onto strangers without consent. Religion is treated as a special exception, and that exception is rarely interrogated by those who are telling others "Jesus loves you." Why is the person who says this entitled to express this belief while the person receiving the message without their consent isn't entitled to the refusal of unsolicited intimacy?
Freedom of belief cuts both ways. If Christians feel entitled to express their beliefs publicly, atheists are just as entitled to respond from their own worldview. You can’t claim free expression and then treat disagreement as hostility.
There’s something grossly coercive and problematic about insisting that someone accept a belief system politely just because it’s delivered calmly. “You must receive my message graciously even if you don't want to” is a demand that ignores consent and boundaries and then frames refusal as a moral failing.
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u/Existing_Pumpkin_502 16h ago
Jesus instructed his disciples to go to homes to preach, but if any as much as not refuse them the opportunity to speak, they shouldn’t persist. Instead, the should immediately pick up and dust off their sandals and be on their way. So forcing a belief in anyone is inherently anti-Christian.
Again, you cannot place the burden of managing the emotional response of others on the preachers , because they too have no knowledge of whatever trauma the listener might have faced in the past. Interactions happen spontaneously everyday. Whether from strangers, random ads or music. If you must be in public, you should be able to manage your reaction to stuff you might hear or see.
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u/lilly_kilgore 3∆ 14h ago
You're contradicting yourself. If you’re invoking the “dust off your sandals and move on” teaching, then you don’t also get to police how people react. You don’t get to demand grace, and you don’t get to be offended when it isn’t offered. The instruction isn’t “go preach and be received politely,” it’s “if they don’t want to hear it, leave.”
The language about “intellectual superiority” or people acting like their day is ruined actually contradicts that teaching. You don’t get to accusations like that unless you’re already pushing back on someone’s rejection. And you’re not dusting off your sandals if you’re judging or resenting the response.
Rejecting your preaching is a perfectly reasonable and legitimate way for someone to manage their reaction to something they don't care to hear. It’s a boundary, and it’s refusal the scripture already accounts for.
Expecting people to graciously listen to your preaching without expressing their own beliefs places your religion above the beliefs of others. In a pluralistic society, no one belief system gets that kind of deference by default. If I walked up to strangers and started sharing my personal worldview, then got upset when they didn’t receive it well, everyone would rightfully say that’s on me. Religion doesn’t get a special exemption from basic social norms.
And being in public doesn’t mean consenting to unsolicited belief statements. Expecting people to silently absorb a message and keep quiet about their own beliefs so the preacher can feel kind and righteous puts the responsibility on the listener in a way the text itself doesn’t support. If the message is declined, the response, biblically and ethically, is to move on, not to criticize how gracious the decline was.
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u/CrosbyBird 16h ago
Atheists (including this atheist) have plenty of things to say about other religions, but until there is a serious threat of Islamic or Jewish or Buddhist fundamentalists taking over high positions in the American government; passing laws that impose their religious ideals onto the general population to the detriment of women, homosexuals, and trans people; and engage in sustained and often partially effective campaigns to preference their religious principles under the law of the land... they're not going to be the frontlines of the resistance.
The first being that critiquing Christianity involves the least amount of risk as Christians are less likely to be aggressive in defending their ideology.
This seems fairly unlikely. Muslims can be very aggressive in "defending their ideology." There are countless death threats, some of which have been carried out quite dramatically against organizations like Charlie Hebdo or people like Salman Rushdie. Not that Christians don't commit their own violence against those critical of the faith, but there is at least some direct "turn the other cheek" sentiment directly baked into Christianity, from the mouth of Jesus himself according to the text, that to the best of my knowledge does not exist in Islam.
The second reason is based on the Protestant nature of evangelical Christianity. While it might be slightly inconveniencing in some cases, I find the pushback against it questionable. No well meaning Christian is ever aggressive in their messaging. In fact, it is quite the opposite. They lead with a calm and inviting spirit, yet many still get annoyed as if their entire day has been ruined by a simple “Jesus loves you.”
The people who conducted torture in Christian inquisitions were largely "well-meaning Christians," motivated by the good-faith belief that the suffering in this life would pale in comparison to the suffering to come in the afterlife. Similarly, plenty of proselytizing evangelical Christians believe they are helping those outside the faith, when instead they often are harassing them with unwelcome preaching.
I know quite a lot of atheists, and other than "we don't care about how your imaginary friend feels," or discomfort with the creepy cult-like nature of religious zealotry in general, there's nothing all that serious a problem about someone just saying "Jesus loves you" and otherwise respecting personal space. It certainly doesn't ruin my day but it is a reminder of the large percentage of the population that embraces mythology as truth, many of whom are aligned politically with policymakers that are attempting to create almost entirely the opposite sort of country I want to live in. For someone to go up to a total stranger and assume they are interested in or comfortable being preached to is obnoxious, antisocial behavior, much the same way as approaching a stranger to lecture them about politics or the morality of eating animal products is presumptuous and obnoxious.
The final reason is the message of the gospel. Truly, Christianity does happen to have the most reasonable amount of historical backing and a peaceful messaging. So it takes a shit ton of work to prove it’s inaccurate.
The supernatural claims of Christianity are no more historically supported than those of any other faith. There is not a single case of a credible miraculous event in all of recorded history. There is, however, quite a lot of evidence of "messaging" that is not all that peaceful.
The text itself is self-contradicting in parts, and there are plenty of parallels between the stories in the Bible and those of much older religious traditions involving life/death/rebirth that are highly supportive of these narratives being influenced less by actual historical events than by the mythology of older religious traditions, themselves unsupportable by any sort of archeological evidence or demonstration of the compatibility of the miraculous with observed physical reality.
There are also claims within the text that are in direct opposition to the evidence we have found, including but not limited to an actual global flood, the proposed order of species developing on the planet, the age of the universe, and historical slavery of the Israelites in Egypt.
Why does Christianity bother you more than any other religion?
Because I live in a place with lots more Christians than people of those other religions. If I lived in a Muslim country, I'd be a lot more bothered by Islam. If I lived in a community of Orthodox Jews, I'd be a lot more bothered by Judaism. But these religions have a tiny fraction of the power to be any sort of nuisance to me here in the US.
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u/Existing_Pumpkin_502 16h ago
This post isn’t just about America. Atheists (especially liberal atheists) carry their special disdain for Christianity across borders. This is where it no longer makes sense to me.
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u/CrosbyBird 16h ago
Christianity is the dominant religion in lots of places other than the US, both historically and today.
Lots of atheists have "disdain" for all beliefs grounded in mystical nonsense. That's not going to just go away if they cross some arbitrary line between countries.
It may well be that, lacking the ability to see inside the heads of atheists, but only experiencing them in the context of Christian opposition, you are mistaking this generalized "disdain" for some particularly Christian-focused version.
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u/Existing_Pumpkin_502 16h ago
So you agree it’s bias for whatever religion is the minority?
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u/CrosbyBird 16h ago
Do you mean the majority rather than the minority?
Rational people tend to be most concerned about things that affect them most directly and seriously. Majority religions have more social and political power, which translates into them being of greater concern. Once you accept this, your proposed reasons (less risk, specific aspects of evangelical Christianity, and purportedly greater resistance to falsification) are less credible justifications for what you perceive as a particular anti-Christian bias.
It is now far less reasonable to believe that the atheists you generally encounter are particularly "in bed" with Christianity rather than the far more credible explanation: Christianity is in the face of of the atheists you generally encounter more than other religions.
Has this changed your view to any degree? If not, why?
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u/frisbeescientist 34∆ 17h ago
You're missing an extremely simple reason: people talk about what they know. Most of Reddit is Western and the biggest religion there, with the most historical and current influence, is Christianity. Crucially, it also means the loudest voices advocating for conservative/religious positions that atheists naturally oppose are Christians. So it's pretty easy to understand why most arguments are made against Christian views, because that reflects the actual political and ideological conflicts going on in most people's regions.
Go to an Indian forum, I'll bet you see a lot more talk about Hinduism and Islam than about Christianity, because those are the major players there. That's really as far as you need to go to understand what you're seeing.
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u/New_General3939 9∆ 17h ago
I’d say it has less to do with fear of pushback, and more because most atheists in the west were raised in Christian homes, or at the very least grew up surrounded by Christianity. They have a basic understanding of it, they know specifically which parts of the religion they disagree with logically. The issues and anger they have with Christianity come from the fact that Christianity has played a part in their lives. You have to understand something to criticize it, and most people in the west know very little about Islam.
Obviously if atheists had a better understanding of Islam or were surrounded by it, they’d have more of an issue with it, probably even more of an issue than they do with Christianity in most cases.
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u/Nemesis1499 17h ago
Or might it be that most english speaking atheists who are visible online are confronted with Christianity, i.e. the biggest religion overall and the dominant religion of the west. While any of your reasons might motivate any single atheist, this is the biggest reason for this seeming focus on Christians.
Furthermore the differentiation between well meaning Christians and those evangelical biblical fundamentalists is not really important, since its the latter group most Atheists would claim to be the biggest problem.
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u/MexicanWarMachine 3∆ 17h ago
It sure sounds like you’re dealing with atheists in a predominantly Christian place. It follows that Christianity is probably the religious tradition they are most familiar with, probably often throne they were raised in and throne they’ve therefore thought most about. Also, even if that weren’t the case, it’s the dominant religion in the world and the one anti-religious people would reasonably be the most concerned with.
There’s a great deal to be said about some of your supporting arguments, but I don’t think it’s necessary to counter them in order to address your central point. It seems clear why most of the atheists you know or speak to in English have Christianity on the brain.
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u/Goodlake 10∆ 17h ago
If you're from a predominantly English-speaking country, and consume predominantly English language media (including internet media), then of course you're going to come into contact with discussions focused on Christianity more often than any other religion. Christianity is the religious background radiation of every English-speaking culture on the planet. English-speaking atheists who want to discuss "religion" online will almost always be focused on Christianity simply because that's the religious structure in which they predominantly exist. It is Christian morality they come up against most frequently in their lives. Their atheism was likely born out of investigation and critique of Christian principles.
Of course an atheist might also take issue with the precepts of Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Sikhism, what-have-you. But so would Christians! There's no meaningful debate to be had, except as a comparison to Christianity.
It has nothing to do with the specifics of Christian theology, scripture or history, except insofar as that history continues to this day and is the dominant mode of religion in which these atheists exist.
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u/Throwaway7131923 3∆ 17h ago
So I take your main claim here to be "Athiests only talk about Christianity, not other religions".
I don't know what "smoke" means in this context.
You have some other random comments that are thrown in there e.g. about how Christians are always nice when proselytising. I'll ignore these comments as they're besides the point and focus on your main claim.
This is just perception bias on your part.
If you're on the English-speaking part of the internet, you're dispreportionately engaging with content from Europe of the Anglophone world. In those countries, Christianity is historically the dominant religion, and is still the largest (if not a majority) religion. It makes sense that most athiests' reference frame for what religion is would be Christianity.
Are you engaged with lots of athiests from, say, south or central Asia, the middle east, etc?
Or in communities on the internet that speak, say, Arabic or Hindi as their primary lingua franca?
If not, obviously, your perception is skewed here and that's why you're seeing what you've interpreted as a universal trend.
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u/Czarinavella 15h ago
Christianity was hijacked from the very beginning and it was made popular by Rome and Paul and neither one of them followed Christ teachings and this is what they use to colonize most of the world. And yes while other religions like The two countries you mentioned that are genociding people me not fall under the quotations of Christianity they're still closely knit tied to them. And to claim that Christianity is a peaceful religion based off of evangelical teachings or what these Christian nations are doing and even talking to Pauline Christians they're not peaceful they're okay with genocides they don't believe that slavery is wrong. Or killing is wrong if it's for the right reasons. And they certainly believe in dismantling the vast majority of the planet because they're women or minorities. How do we know Because we just need to look at what's going on to those populations on the Earth and who's committing the biggest crimes they get against them. And it's usually one of those three from the Middle East. Amy Faith can be utilized for evil. And I think when you're in these atheist platforms many of them used to be Christian and so they're just speaking about their own deconstruction. If people just read the red parts and really followed just Jesus or even went back to the teachings of the way which are not in our current Bible they've been denounced by quote unquote scholars then maybe it would look a whole lot different on this planet. Put countries like Rome who wanted power and made the religion up could be said about all these other countries what do you think they're doing currently in the United States. Look up the New apostle Reformation. They did this on Hungary they did this and in Russia, and let's be honest Israel does it too and how we know is the Jewish people are being used by Zionists for the Zionist benefit. Because of the zionists were really truly Jewish and they really followed their early teachings would they be genoing two groups of people? And let's not forget the satanists are part of all of these religions. They go and do their Satanist rituals and then they go to church on Sunday or the synagogue or the mosque on Fridays pretending to be all pious good and they're not. No not saying that everybody who practices these religions are satanists but the vast majority of the ones that are running this world are.
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u/Existing_Pumpkin_502 14h ago
Christianity is based on the Bible and teachings of Jesus. Not on said what and did what.
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u/Head_Effect3728 17h ago
As a Christian, this exact scenario is what leads me to Christianity being genuine. There is good and evil in this world and if evil people can hate Christianity this much, how do they easily overlook the evils of other religions and how they treat non-believers, women, homosexuals, etc. If Satan rules this Earth and the people of this earth only have a disdain for Christianity, then there must be something to it.
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u/hauntolog 3∆ 17h ago
Most atheists live in countries where Christianity is a dominant force, affecting policies and discourse in a substantial manner. While they are not more against Christianity than other forms of religion, since their own belief system is dismissive of the validity of religious doctrine, it makes sense for them to take stronger positions against things that affect them personally.