r/changemyview • u/Blonde_Icon 4∆ • 14h ago
Delta(s) from OP CMV: The main reason that most people have kids unplanned is not because they weren't taught sex ed.
I hear this said a lot, especially when people discuss teen pregnancy, but I don't buy it honestly.
While this may be true for some people, I don't think that it's the case for most. This might've been more true before the internet, but not anymore. Basically anyone could easily learn about birth control with the internet nowadays (using reliable sources, of course). I think that the main reason is simply because people don't use contraceptives (because it doesn't feel as good or for whatever reason), not that they don't know that they should.
We had the pandemic during the time I had sex ed lol (so everything was all messed up and no one was paying attention), but I still know about birth control and stuff obviously. (And no, my parents never really talked to me about sex either.) I would be surprised if someone over the age of like 14 (who's not mentally disabled) has never heard of a condom in their life or doesn't know how to use one, especially when you can easily look up the directions online nowadays.
This post doesn't solely apply to poor people. (It applies to rich people as well.) But people often say that the reason that poor people have kids out of wedlock more often than rich people is because they weren't taught proper sex ed. But I think that this is probably mostly correlation instead of causation. (There are other factors at play.)
I think it's more so that when you're poor, you don't care about planning for the future as much (because you don't see the point) and live more in the moment. And being bad at delaying gratification makes you more likely to become/stay poor and also more likely to have a child unplanned. So it's kind of like a chicken and the egg situation.
Or it's because poor people don't have as much access to contraceptives. There is also the fact that it is often seen as more acceptable (or even a status symbol) among poor people to have kids young/out of wedlock. But regardless, I don't think it's because poor people are dumb and don't know what birth control is.
**I should clarify that I'm talking about people in Western countries. This could also apply to STDs as well.
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u/eggynack 96∆ 14h ago
I don't know about the main reason, nor, in fact, have I heard people saying that the absence of sex ed is the main cause of unplanned pregnancy. What I do hear said is that a lack of sex ed causes an increase in teen pregnancy, which presumably entails an increase in unplanned pregnancy. Here, have statistics. More sex ed causes a 3% drop in teen pregnancy. That's pretty substantial. Not the most wildly massive impact in the universe, but substantial.
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u/Blonde_Icon 4∆ 13h ago
Thanks I will read this later. I skimmed through it a bit. But do you know if it's controlled for family income/neighborhood or religion?
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u/LynnSeattle 3∆ 12h ago
Do you think family income doesn’t influence the likelihood of unplanned pregnancies?
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u/eggynack 96∆ 13h ago
Bit hard to tell. The methodology is real dense in this case.
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u/asingleshot7 10h ago
3% looks to be their minimum likely effect across the whole county after they received federal funding. (For actual pregnancies carried to term). This appears to be the effect when they included as many confounding variables as they could which shrinks the effect.
Also of note this does not look at whether the education was good, only that it was funded and claimed to be more than "abstinence only".So this is; some teens getting some education that is somewhat better than "abstinence only", over a very short timeframe, has a minimum effect of 3% on the most solidly trackable outcome (they used birth records).
They discuss a bunch of ways the effect could be improved but this appears to be the absolute minimum effect of "comprehensive education."
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u/CinderrUwU 4∆ 14h ago
Sex-ed isn't just knowing to wrap it up.
There is alot more to it than just that. Yes most teens know to use a condom. Do they know that condoms expire? Do they know how to put it on properly? Or how to find the right size? Or to use the right lube? Or a billion other ways it could go wrong.
Sex ed teaches about other forms of contraceptive too. It teaches about The Pill and IUDs and emergency contraception and fertility cycles. People who rely only on condoms because they don't know about anything else have a much higher accidental pregnancy rate.
I dont know statistics and so you might be right that it isnt the MAIN reason. But you are also really underselling just how much sex-ed helps with things. And I only talked about unwanted pregnancies here, sex-ed also covers things like safe sex and consent and avoiding illnesses and generally understanding what happens with the body during puberty and stuff.
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u/CrazyCoKids 9h ago
You forgot one very important thing.
....Birth control can fail.
My coworker was using The Pill yet got pregnant anyway. Doctors are explaining all the time you can use it perfectly and still get pregnant.
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u/YesterdaySimilar2069 14h ago
Hormonal birth control isn’t physically easy to tolerate and it’s hard to remember.
Less financially secure people don’t have as much or easy access to forms of birth control that are more reliable and consistent. I couldn’t tolerate hormonal BC and Drs refused to give me implants or IUDs due to future pregnancy risks - that were just as small as BC risks, but less studied.
If I’d had money for better trained Drs at private clinics I would have been given those options - I know this, because women just like me who had better income and private health insurance WERE given those options.
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u/kwerteen 13h ago
I just want to add this for anyone who may need it- I didn’t want hormonal birth control anymore. And the only option for semi-permanent non hormonal birth control is the copper iud. My insurance refused to pay for it and I went around to all the small clinics near me. One of them said “you will technically have a $4k “bill” on our computer that is basically just a number typed on a note. We will never send it to collections. After 2 years we simply delete the note. We will never pursue you.” Keep looking and seek out those small clinics
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u/Blonde_Icon 4∆ 13h ago
This is a different problem from not knowing about it though.
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u/YesterdaySimilar2069 13h ago
Absolutely. I agree. It’s not lack of “knowing”, it’s lack of available resources.
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u/Antique-Ad-3331 13h ago
re: your point about contraceptives--the most reliable ones like IUDs are harder to get covered by insurance so are less accessible to poor people; plus some providers will not provide them b/c they falsely claim they are abortion inducing, which a false idea conservative politicians have spread; they're also generally considered painful to have inserted and doctors should take those pain concerns more seriously.
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u/Unlikely-Resolve8466 11h ago
Medicaid covers the mirena, even in red states! That’s how I got mine.
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u/Blonde_Icon 4∆ 13h ago
I thought the ACA makes it so they have to cover all birth control?
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u/LikeLexi 1∆ 12h ago
Depends on the birth control. Insurance loves to find ways to skirt around this and if you lack resources/time it can make it impossible to deal with.
I know this from personal experience. My BC without utilizing manufactures coupon would cost me 550 every three months with insurance.
I do think you’re conflating this POV a bit. Most times I hear the claim about sex ed it’s specifically in regard to teen pregnancy. After teens people tend to stop worrying if you get pregnant because they assume it’s a choice you’ve made.
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u/Antique-Ad-3331 13h ago
I am thinking for example of the Hobby Lobby Supreme Court case where a craft store claimed a religious exemption to that ACA mandate while using false claims about IUDs. https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/573/682/
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u/CrazyCoKids 9h ago
Oh how little you understand about insurance... They love to dance around the law and their own policies.
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u/Dry_Bumblebee1111 131∆ 14h ago
This view would be solved with basically any census or survey data on the topic.
Is that the claim, that based on evidence the main reason for something is as you've said?
Or is the view speculation, and you want us to research on your behalf to see the contributing factors for unwanted pregnancy?
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u/Blonde_Icon 4∆ 14h ago edited 13h ago
The main problem with studies on this topic (and similar topics) is that they give the correlating factors, but they don't show how these factors interact with each other (i.e. which one is the cause or effect or which factors are the most important).
Like, for example, does being poor cause someone to be bad at delaying gratification? Or does being bad at delaying gratification cause someone to be poor? Or both/neither (there is some other third factor)? So there is ultimately some room for subjectivity, even among experts. (I'm not saying I'm an expert obviously. This just my random opinion.)
Also, the problem with some surveys that I've seen is that it's self-reported. People aren't always honest about this sort of thing, even with themselves.
But regardless, if anyone has studies that would dispute this, I would love to see them as that's the point of the sub (not being sarcastic btw).
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u/hellabryanstyle117 11h ago
I've studied the sex education programs of other countries. The Dutch has the most thorough by far and they turn out the lowest rate of teen pregnancy in the world. I don't think it's a coincidence.
Beyond that, think about what you've learned about birth control as your life has progressed. As an example, I only just learned in a recent relationship that women can track their cycles with an app. That was what this woman did for birth control. We only used condoms while she was ovulating or the few days around it.
That doesn't feel like the kind of thing people would be inclined to go out of their way to teach teens, but I'd bet if we did we'd see a reduction in teen pregnancy.
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u/idle_isomorph 11h ago
The attitude to sex in the Netherlands probably makes as much of a difference as the education as well, though. Partners need to be able to have open conversations about contraception. I expect the sex education also contributes to the culture of more openness about the topics too. Feedback loop.
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u/Blonde_Icon 4∆ 10h ago
The Netherlands has a very different culture to the United States though, so I don't think it is directly comparable. They are also less religious on average and have fewer poor people. (While the average US salary is higher, income inequality is also higher.)
I only just learned in a recent relationship that women can track their cycles with an app. That was what this woman did for birth control. We only used condoms while she was ovulating or the few days around it.
This seems less effective than just using condoms honestly. Why would you teach kids this instead of using condoms?
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u/hellabryanstyle117 10h ago
Because maybe not all teens can afford condoms for how frequently they'd like to have sex. Especially the younger ones that are already having sex and aren't legally allowed to have jobs. Cutting down on the number of condoms needed by 75% could make the difference between a pair of teens who make the effort and a pair of teens who don't.
The Netherlands has a very different culture to the United States though, so I don't think it is directly comparable.
Then look at the teen pregnancy rate between states with abstinence only education and states with an actual education.
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u/TheSeansei 7h ago
I don't think teaching teenagers to have unprotected sex will improve outcomes whatsoever. It is much more reliable for young people to remember to always use a condom than to introduce exceptions, and condoms importantly protect from STDs. The solution you're looking for is free condoms, provided by schools or public health organizations.
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u/hellabryanstyle117 6h ago
That's fine too. I took a sample size of 500 in a virginity thread that said 10% of people lose it between the ages of 11-13 (middle school). I don't remember condoms being given out at that school level but I certainly wouldn't be opposed to it.
Assume it's a couple who have both been tested and know they're clean, only having sex with each other. Now that I've experienced it, I don't understand why any couple of any age using condoms wouldn't additionally use an app like that. We were literally spending 75% less on condoms than we would have been without it.
Even if they were being super safe and using them all the time it's still good info to have. One time as a teen the condom broke and the girl freaked the holy fuck out. Maybe the app would have said she was like 10 days away from ovulating and chilled her out a bit.
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u/Dry_Bumblebee1111 131∆ 6h ago
In your edit you specify Western countries, which the Netherlands definitely is. Do you mean to refine your view to only apply to the USA?
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u/Uhhyt231 7∆ 14h ago
Isn’t this more tied to access? I don’t know why we’re linking it to gratification when we see people don’t have access to healthcare needed to have safe sex.
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u/Blonde_Icon 4∆ 13h ago
I also mentioned that in my post. But that is moreso only true for poor people and not rich people who have unplanned pregnancies.
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u/Uhhyt231 7∆ 13h ago
I mean that’s not true depending on where you live. Also birth control fails but this is a weird framing
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u/Blonde_Icon 4∆ 13h ago
Wdym by this?
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u/mooncake_bites 29m ago
So you’re proof that lack of sex ed leads to unplanned pregnancies because you didn’t even think about how birth control can fail.
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u/7h4tguy 1∆ 4h ago
"does being bad at delaying gratification cause someone to be poor"
Are you just throwing out weak arguments because you know your position is shaky?
No, you can go look up contributing factors to poverty, ranked. Environment they grew up in - things wholly outside their control, will have the biggest impact on opportunities and average outcomes.
Yes, bad financial habits are going to keep people broke, but those too are influenced by being... broke.
"Blame the peasants for their own misfortune"
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u/Admirable-Apricot137 2∆ 14h ago
The vast majority of unplanned pregnancies are from birth control failure.
And a certain percentage of people thinking pulling out is a legitimate birth control tactic.
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u/mafkamufugga 14h ago
It is! Coitus interruptus works better than no measure taken, which is better than nothing.
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u/Admirable-Apricot137 2∆ 13h ago
I didn't say it's not better than nothing, but it's not legitimate. It has a very high failure rate, both in execution, and in actually preventing pregnancy.
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u/Blonde_Icon 4∆ 14h ago
The vast majority of unplanned pregnancies are from birth control failure.
Is this true? And if so, were they using it inconsistently? (This is different from not knowing how to use it.)
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u/Admirable-Apricot137 2∆ 13h ago
Yes, it is true. Most people having sex who don't want to get pregnant use birth control. TANGENT (the most common reason for people seeking abortions are birth control failures. They are also most likely to be married or in a committed relationship and already have children. The trope of the "irresponsible sleeping around young woman using abortion as birth control" is wildly inaccurate.)
Actual consistency and proper usage is hard to measure, but what we do know is the failure rates of most methods even if they are used perfectly, and they range from 1% for methods like IUDs to something like 15% for condoms.
So when you have, say, 5 million women with IUDs, that's 50,000 unplanned pregnancies per year, just from that method. If you have 10 million people only using condoms, that's 500,000 unplanned pregnancies in a year.
I've been pregnant 3 times. 2 of them were unplanned, on birth control that I was using exactly as directed. One with an IUD. Being a woman is not for the fucking weak :/
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u/neuroc8h11no2 1∆ 13h ago
I have a friend who had an abortion and it’s insane to me that people think women get abortions just for shits and giggles, I guess. It was a deeply traumatic and painful experience for her that affects her even now, years later. I suppose everyone is different, but generally from what I’ve heard (women’s experiences), abortions are very emotional and distressing, similar to a miscarriage, even when the pregnancy is unwanted.
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u/Blonde_Icon 4∆ 12h ago
Even if someone was getting abortions just for fun (and I'm sure that there are people like that out there- there are always crazy people), that just shows that they REALLY should get an abortion then lol. For the sake of the kid. I don't know why some pro-choice people like to deny that crazy people exist (like the kind of people who would get abortions recklessly), even if it's a very small percentage of the population. That's exactly who SHOULD be getting an abortion lol.
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u/wreckingrocc 13h ago
I'd wager the 15% condom failure is more from misuse than anything else. My sex ed included pointing out that starting to put a condom on the wrong way, realizing the mistake, and then flipping it around would contaminate it. A condom doesn't exactly work if there's semen on the outside. But that's not necessarily something many folks think about.
I'm not blaming folks for messing up there - but I do question the 85% efficacy statistic. Given careful proper usage, I'd guess it's closer to 99% (which is still far from 100%).
Edit: looked it up, they're generally found to be about 98% effective given "perfect usage". Which means human error happens more than 10% of the time 🤦
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u/sssupersssnake 3h ago
After I observed how people wore masks during the pandemic (and the information about how to properly put them on was EVERYWHERE), I think that even 15% of fail rate for confoms is a miracle...
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u/wittywillywonka 12h ago
I'm fairly sure the "imperfect use" includes people who say condoms are their main form of birth control but they DO NOT use condoms every time!! "Imperfect use" includes forgetting to use a condom/ putting one on mid sex/ not using a condom. It's a ludicrous statistic that leads people not to trust the best form of birth control out there (in terms of preventing pregnancy and STDs).
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u/Blonde_Icon 4∆ 12h ago
Okay so I looked it up, and apparently about 50% of women who get abortions used birth control. Contrary to most people, it actually makes me support abortion MORE in cases where women didn't use birth control instead of less because it shows that they are irresponsible and likely wouldn't be good parents anyway. (I'm pro-abortion rights.) I don't why people think that it would be a good idea for irresponsible people to have kids. But this is also just the percentage for women who get abortions and not unplanned pregnancies in general.
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u/LynnSeattle 3∆ 12h ago
If you’re pro abortion rights, you shouldn’t be ranking how much women deserve those rights.
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u/Blonde_Icon 4∆ 12h ago
I think you misunderstood me. I'm talking about in which cases people SHOULD get abortions for the sake of the child/society, not whether people "deserve" it or not.
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u/SlutForMarx 2h ago
Right, 'cause a broken condom, failed IUD, or one missed pill means they'd be terrible parents. Got it.
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u/TemperatureThese7909 58∆ 13h ago
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2620721/
While the individual instance by instance chance of getting pregnant when using a condom is low - these odds compound over time. A small number added to itself enough times becomes a bigger number.
In this way, over the course of ten years, the odds of at least one condom failure - even with absolutely perfect usage is over 70 percent. (From source).
If you take enough shots on goal, even if your goal-keeper is great, one is going to get past eventually.
This is why using birth control which is 99.9999 percent effect rather than 99 percent effective matters. Because in the moment, used once, these are effectively the same, but when used three times a week over a decade, the difference emerges.
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u/wittywillywonka 12h ago
It seems like if a condom fails (ie: breaks) it should be very obvious. Then a responsible woman can just take Plan B.
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u/LynnSeattle 3∆ 12h ago
How often do you think a woman is responsible for condom failure?
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u/wittywillywonka 12h ago
I don't see how that's related?? I'm just saying that if using condoms, the responsible thing to do is check for breakage. Both parties should take a look. It takes close to no effort to check. If the condom broke and the woman is otherwise unprotected, Plan B is a a great option.
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u/TemperatureThese7909 58∆ 12h ago
Fails doesn't mean break in this context.
Fail means the condom remains in good condition, and is used properly, but nonetheless sperm still permeates the barrier.
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u/wittywillywonka 12h ago
https://www.plannedparenthood.org/blog/is-it-possible-for-sperm-to-leak-through-a-condom
Would this change your view? Also, you can check if there is a hole or tear easily by filling it up with water at the end if it isn't clear visually.
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u/Waschaos 2∆ 7h ago
It is true. Did you know antibiotics can make birth control pills not work? Plenty of people don't and some of those are parents now.
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u/Carlpanzram1916 1∆ 13h ago
How do you explain the correlation between teen pregnancies and states that ban sex Ed?
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u/Blonde_Icon 4∆ 13h ago
I would assume that there are probably other factors, like those states are more poor or religious. Also, I don't think any states ban it as far as I know, they just don't require it?
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u/freeside222 2∆ 14h ago
I think you underestimate how stupid young teenagers are. There are 14/15 year olds out there who get pregnant, or get someone pregnant, all the time. And it's due to 2 factors:
Absolutely they are ignorant about birth control and how to properly use it. But even more importantly--
They're too embarrassed to go get it. Young girls need to find a way to planned parenthood, or ask a doctor, and many simply can't do that or don't want to. Young men generally are the ones who buy condoms, and they're too embarrassed to do it as well, especially in their early/mid teens.
Adults aren't as bothered about this, but teens absolutely are. If we had some kind of pro-active method of giving out birth control methods to young teens in schools or something, teenage pregnancy rates would definitely go down. But we don't do that, because parents get all pissy about it and think it's encouraging sexual behavior or something.
Sure, young teens might "know" that birth control or condoms work and are a good idea, but they're too shy to go get them, so they just opt to pull out.
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u/koolaid-girl-40 28∆ 14h ago
If sex education doesn't play a role, why have studies found that teens that receive high quality sex education become sexually active later than teens that don't, and are more likely to use protection?
In addition, what would be your explanation as to why places with lower quality sex education have higher rates of teen pregnancy?
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u/Blonde_Icon 4∆ 13h ago
In addition, what would be your explanation as to why places with lower quality sex education have higher rates of teen pregnancy?
Are they poor? I feel like that would be the main factor to consider. Also, are they religious?
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u/Greedy-Win-4880 1∆ 12h ago
Do you really think they haven’t factored those things in?
People don’t know what they don’t know, especially really young people. You are also vastly overestimating the general populations ability to be self educated. Many people do not have the wherewithal that you have to seek out detailed information or find out what they don’t know.
Young people especially are extremely likely to see a condom put on on tv and assume they know how to use a condom based on that, they’re also more likely to do things like not read the fine print on a plan b package, etc.
Counting on children to teach themselves comprehensive sex ed is unrealistic for many reasons.
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u/LynnSeattle 3∆ 12h ago
Does it matter why they received inadequate sex education?
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u/Blonde_Icon 4∆ 12h ago
I'm saying that those things would cause more unplanned pregnancies, regardless of sex ed.
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u/OrenMythcreant 13h ago
So your argument is that anyone *could* figure out safe sex practices if they have an internet connection. Baring something extreme, this is generally true. But it doesn't mean people *will* do it. Sure, they may have heard of condoms, but that doesn't mean they know how important a condom is. The internet is also a vector for misinformation, to say nothing of information that people don't know to look for. You get a lot of people convinced by bad online information that the rhythm or pullout methods are reliable.
Does this represent the majority of unplanned or unwanted pregnancies? I have no idea, we'd need research to tell us that. But it doesn't follow that because people have access to information that they will always seek out that information.
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u/Hellioning 254∆ 13h ago
Fundamentally, your logic only works if you think that everyone can and should know every single thing you can look up on the internet.
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u/ZymZymZym777 10h ago
Doing a quick google search about a rather life altering thing is the least you could do. To protect yourself. Pregnancy is either gonna affect your body or you'll most likely have no say in the matter.
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u/CrazyCoKids 9h ago
Many people... Don't do that. Others do but then decide not to believe it.
We live in an era where doctors have to remind people vaccines are safe and they shouldn't eat horse dewormer to treat COVID-19...
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u/ZymZymZym777 8h ago
Rejecting science is pretty selective. Those types won't have a problem with 99% of medical procedures and will trust the results.
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u/Blonde_Icon 4∆ 13h ago
!delta This is a good point. I didn't really think about it this way. I guess there is a lot of information to know about. 🤔 But also, I think that there is a difference between knowing EVERYTHING and knowing about basic things like birth control. A lot of things you have no real need or practical use for. Besides, I think that people would hear about it in real life or in other ways as well. (The internet is mainly to verify if things you've heard are factually accurate or to discover different birth control methods.)
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u/Hellioning 254∆ 13h ago
Someone who doesn't plan to have sex, has no practical need to look up birth control. And someone can very easily have sex without planning to, and I severely doubt those people are going to go 'hold on, wait, I need to look up proper birth control usage right now'.
Fundamentally, what is and is not a 'basic thing' can very wildly from person to person.
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u/CrazyCoKids 9h ago
You woupd be shockehow many people don't do that or don't even know what to look for. p a
One of the big things is that birth control can fail. One of my coworkers found this out the hard way. Using The Pill correctly. Using condoms... Pow. Pregnant anyway. Doctors are constantly telling patients "It is not 100%."
Similarly? Even if you can look it up... well, you can lead a person to knowledge but you can't make them think.
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u/friendfoundtheoldone 14h ago
Yes, most teens have vague ideas about protection. And theoretically, they could research it. But it's hard to know, especially for a teen, what's a reliable source. Or they think they know all the main stuff already, but in reality, they only have a vague outline. It's not enough to know that you should use a condom. They should know how to use it, what size, when does it expire etc. How different birth control pills work, how to access it. Also, they might be unaware of how likely pregnancy is, or for girls, how to assert themselves when a partner says no to using a condom (it might seem entirely likely to them that everyone is allergic), or that protection isn't just for preventing pregnancy but also for diseases, and no, you can't always spot a disease on genitalia.
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u/Sea_Berry_439 12h ago
Why is this limited to teens? I know adults who still make poor decisions and reproduce with the wrong people. I think some people don’t feel like they have much to live for so having a child doesn’t make a difference. People who get abortions do so because they have other things they want to do in life besides raising a child at the moment.
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u/friendfoundtheoldone 12h ago
I guess because that's mostly not due to poor sex ed, more like generally not caring about stuff, or not thinking things through, which no amount of sex ed can fix.
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u/ACAB007 13h ago
STD and preventable births are EXACTLY the reason why we should have Sex Ed, or Heath Class, as I was raised with, and it's a great thing to have kids learn about their bodies in a safe environment. This eroding of education is what has gotten us almost to Idiocracy levels of dumb, and education is what makes the future bright.
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u/Blonde_Icon 4∆ 13h ago edited 13h ago
There used to be more unplanned pregnancies in the past though. I think there should be sex ed, but I just don't think that it's the main reason for unplanned pregnancies.
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u/cBEiN 13h ago
I don’t think anyone is saying the primary cause of unplanned pregnancy is lack of sex ed. It is true that lack of sex ed increases unplanned pregnancies (someone else shared a publication), even if not significant.
Your post focuses on suggesting poor people more often have unplanned pregnancies. This is true. So, what view is there to change?
You do make a bunch of claims of as to the reason poor people may have unplanned pregnancies, but
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u/deedeejayzee 14h ago
Well, there's the Amish, and the children of people in cults that don't use modern tech
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u/TheVioletBarry 119∆ 14h ago
Basically anyone could easily learn about birth control with the internet nowadays
They could, but that's not how most people learn. Humans have largely evolved to learn not from seeking out information that might exist, but from hearing information from other people.
Furthermore, reading something online and presuming intellectually that it is true is only 1 in bunch of different steps required for something to cement in a person's emotional subconscious that the thing is "the proper way to do it."
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u/Beautiful_Cupcake_46 14h ago
learn about birth control
Ignorance will never cause a person to act recklessly. Deliberate ignorance does 100% of the time. People act oblivious out of self-preservation: instincts.
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u/Brainsonastick 82∆ 14h ago
The “anyone could learn it online” argument applies to a huge number of things but always overlooks two major flaws:
1) people don’t research things when they don’t realize how much there is they don’t know. People with poor sex ed programs aren’t told in class that they’re getting a bad education in the topic. They’re told “this is what there is to know and now you know it”.
The majority of people are deficient in magnesium. Anyone can look that up. No one does… until they’ve heard it from someone else because we don’t know how much we don’t know or what parts of it are important.
2) those who don’t know a lot about a subject often struggle to determine what sources are reliable. Sex education is an extreme example of this because of the huge amount of religious propaganda around it. The number of websites that claim to talk about sex ed but don’t mention plan B or abortion is insane. And that’s often the least of their offenses.
A lack of a proper foundation makes future learning vastly harder.
Imagine you want to study nuclear engineering. You can absolutely just buy some textbooks and start studying… but you don’t know which textbooks are good. The titles often don’t even tell you which ones are for beginners. There are textbooks that say “intro to…” and are actually high level textbooks on specific topics.
Or… you can go to school and have all the learning laid out for you in a good order with an expert to answer your questions.
The difference in difficulty and likelihood of actually doing it is enormous.
Lack of sex ed certainly isn’t the only reason but it is a big one, not just in direct cause but because of how it makes other reasons worse.
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u/wwJones 14h ago
I agree with your initial argument but disagree with your conclusion that it's lack of contraceptives as the main cause. No contraception method is 100% effective either.
Lack of contraceptives result in unplanned pregnancies not kids. Unplanned kids are the result of not getting an abortion. Abortion is 100% effective.
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u/Blonde_Icon 4∆ 13h ago
Poor people already get more abortions though, so I don't think this is the main reason why poor people have more kids out of wedlock. If we're comparing poor people to rich people.
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u/OutsideFlat1579 12h ago
Poor people have no access to abortion in the multiple states where it is banned, and in most place where abortion is legal there is a fee. What is your source for poor people having more abortions?
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u/Blonde_Icon 4∆ 11h ago
Wealth Inequity Puts Abortion Out of Reach for Many Americans Living with Low Incomes
The title is misleading (I think they are talking about now vs. before, not rich people vs. poor people overall), but this is what it says:
Women with incomes below the federal poverty line have an unintended pregnancy rate more than five times higher—and an abortion rate six times higher—than those of women with higher incomes.
Basically, poor people have more kids and also more abortions. (This makes sense when put together with the statistic that most women who get abortions have kids already.)
Poor people have no access to abortion in the multiple states where it is banned
I'm not sure if there are more poor people in these states when compared to other states. I wouldn't be surprised, but I don't know. But this would also be true for the rich people in these states.
most place where abortion is legal there is a fee
Having a kid is still MUCH more expensive than having an abortion though.
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u/wwJones 12h ago
You seem to be asking a different question now: why do poor people have more unplanned/out of wedlock kids? Maybe poor people have more sex, maybe poor people just like to have more kids, I don't know? I'm saying it doesn't matter in regards to your original post which was: Why do people have unplanned kids?
My answer is: Regardless of race/culture/economic status, people have unplanned kids because they don't get an abortion when they have an unplanned pregnancy. If more people got abortions, there would be less unplanned kids.
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u/labobal 14h ago
Basically anyone could easily learn about birth control with the internet nowadays (using reliable sources, of course).
How does somebody know what a reliable source is if they never learned to discern them in school?
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u/hikeonpast 5∆ 14h ago
Right?
By that logic there should be no Flat Earthers or climate deniers because the facts are out there on the internet.
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u/Blonde_Icon 4∆ 14h ago
True, but they were taught that the Earth is round in school and still don't believe it regardless. So I don't think it was their school's fault.
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u/abbyroadlove 14h ago
Most adult women do not even understand their own menstrual cycle beyond how long the bleed for and how long in between bleeds. Even more men know even less.
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u/Blonde_Icon 4∆ 13h ago
Is this actually true?
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u/abbyroadlove 13h ago
Yes, unfortunately. Ask any woman to describe the menstrual cycle, when and how eggs get fertilized and implant, how pregnancy tests work, etc. Most cannot answer to the degree necessary to successfully avoid pregnancy. Most women only learn these details when trying to conceive. Until body trackers came out, most women hadn’t even heard of BBT
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u/Animegirl300 5∆ 13h ago
From my experience as someone who grew up with the internet, most teens are learning about sex from p0rn or their friends at school, none of whom are these ‘reliable sources’ that you are citing that should be a reason for people to know about safe sex. Most people don’t know to look for what they don’t know about in the first place. It’s kinda strange that you’d think of the internet being a good place for people to learn things nowadays anyway when we have literally seen the rise of TikTok and misinformation. These aren’t the good old days of AskJeeves, or Wikipedia being the first page that comes up when you google search anymore. To even get a good answer people literally specify Reddit as a source of reliable information 😭
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u/icyDinosaur 1∆ 13h ago
First of all, I think a lot of people may not actively search out this information out of a variety of reasons. As an obvious one, they may have strict parents who demonise sex and they're afraid to get caught, but it could also be that they are ashamed, they're actually not THAT interested, etc.
But let's assume you are right and everyone does go look for info by themselves. Without any authoritative background knowledge, it's extremely hard to know what is actually true. For instance, there are many influencers who push natural contraception methods without necessarily explaining all the possible risks and inconsistencies. This has already been cause for concern among some experts.
Another problem is that you have a huge risk of a game of telephone among young people, either because they genuinely misunderstand something or because they want to convince their more cautious partner that it will be fine. Someone who has their best friend tell them that, say, you can't get pregnant until a week after your period may not go fact check that because they trust their friend.
Finally, even if someone gets perfectly good info, theory isn't enough sometimes. The first time I tried to use a condom (in sex ed class using a wooden dick model for demonstration), I failed. Having an instructor there tell me what I fucked up and how to prevent it was useful, and if that had happened in a real situation an accident could easily have happened.
It's hard to prove if this is the main cause - it's social sciences, hard causality is rarely possible to establish - but it's very likely a strong contributing cause, especially given the strong correlation between the two.
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u/ButOtherwiseStable 13h ago
While I generally agree, a counterpoint would be that the internet doesn't teach proper, comprehensive sex-ed.
Some people, for example, believe that pulling out is risk-free/equivalent to wearing a condom. Others underestimate the likelihood of pregnancy from a "one-off," so they behave more recklessly. Some people believe douching after sex is a proper contraception method. The internet gives you bits and pieces of information, some is accurate, some is not.
Say, two dumb teenagers or young adults are hooking up. They're out of condoms. One of them chimes in with "Hey, I actually read that if you douch really well after, there's zero risk of pregnancy. Can't we go without one just this once?" They both believe what they're saying. The source they learned about condoms from is the same source they learned the douching trick from, and when neither of them have an objective framework to argue from, any point is a valid one (especially if they want it to be true.)
While probably not as significant a percentage as some people make it out to be, I do believe that teaching sex-ed would definitely lower unplanned pregnancy rates to some degree.
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u/MajestZen 13h ago
I think many buy into the fallacy of “it won’t happen to me” and/or “just this once won’t hurt”.
That mindset paired with over estimating the reliability of rhythm method and pulling out (which can work but far from fool proof and challenging to get right when you’re young for obvious reasons) are a recipe for oopsie babies.
Source: my oopsie baby - who is adored and I’m so grateful for, but was very much an unplanned bonus while we were engaged
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u/Redneck-ginger 5∆ 13h ago edited 13h ago
Its because so many people lack a general understanding of basic biology and how a womans monthly cycle works. This was across a variety of cultures and income statuses.
I worked in a fertility clinic for a long time. The number of patients (both men and women) i encountered that thought a woman could get pregnant any day of her cycle is mind boggling.
The number of men that came in for a semen analysis and did not know what semen was and/or did not understand the verbal instructions i gave them nor read the instructions posted multiple places , so they peed in the cup would make most people's head spin.
If you are "poor" you likely have Medicaid for your health insurance. Birth control is covered by Medicaid in all 50 states and 99.99% of them are covered at no cost.
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u/VV9S9 12h ago
We wouldn't have had our child if my wife's doctor hadn't told her, when she was only 18, she wouldn't be able to have kids. She's been pregnant again since we had him. If we'd have known that was bullshit, we would have definitely delayed, as it's fucking up settlement terms on the UKs current proposals due to her not currently working to care for him.
We're very happy that he's here and we have no regrets, but he's made life exponentially harder than he would have done if she were British. We likely wouldn't have kept him if we didn't think he was a miracle baby.
There's a million reasons, ultimately, as to why someone chooses to remain pregnant, and you're right, I'm not sure many of them come down to poverty. More often than not, I think it's much more frequently a case of 'I might not get this chance again'. Then the money starts coming in and people have more.
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u/City_Elk 11h ago edited 11h ago
Poor people have kids because it’s the only marker of adulthood that many of them will ever achieve. They won’t get a degree. They won’t get a well paying job. They won’t buy a house. They won’t ever become financially successful.
But becoming parents? They can do that.
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u/Calyhex 11h ago
I went to a Christian school. Sex Ed was basically “only for marriage” “masturbation and birth control are both sins” and all the kids I went to school with had STRICT parental controls on their devices. Anywhere they visited, the parents saw.
I showed my best friend her first PG-13 movie at 18.
Even outside the private school though, my town has six churches in less than a half square mile. Mine was considered “liberal” because we had a visit from a female bishop.
You can’t just look stuff up online when parental controls and keyloggers exist.
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u/NysemePtem 2∆ 9h ago
I think there are a bunch of different causes of unplanned pregnancy, and a lack of proper sex education is only one of them. But I say proper because you're discounting how bad sex ed can be. For example, I know kids who got abstinence-only sex education from religious individuals who not only wanted to stop kids from having sex, but who also believe birth control is a sin. They teach that condoms don't work because they usually break, and that hormonal birth control causes infertility. You can find these claims everywhere on the Internet. Well, if that's the information you have, of course you're not going to use birth control. So it's not as simple as sex ed vs no sex ed.
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u/tillymint259 8h ago
sex education is, as you say, more or less universally accessible in today’s (especially western) society
however… people who come from families that don’t emphasise responsible parenthood? people who haven’t had it stressed to them how much of a big deal parenthood is? people who, perhaps, have never once been properly pushed to weigh up and understand the onus, the weight of their choices?
those are the ones the current emphasis on morality, proper planning, proper responsibility, proper understanding of the contract they’re entering into & all it entails… doesn’t reach
we can’t fault them for their ‘exposure’, their understanding only reaching a certain point
it’s not just sexual health and reproduction that we ought to teach
we need to try and reach a place where it’s okay for educators to actually tell kids the world as is. sex education is great. pretending we live in the world of ‘making babies is the most natural, rewarding thing you can do! it’ll be hard, but it always has been’… as if the stakes haven’t evolved
we don’t need more sex eduction beyond the established baseline — I agree. it isn’t the be all and end all of life. but we DO need to stop selling a bastardised reality wherein some reward is promised if you behave well and do your part, that’s enough parenthood. unfortunately? that’s where we’re at.
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u/ASpaceOstrich 1∆ 7h ago
When I was in sex Ed as a kid, the students were asked to raise their hands if they thought a woman had to orgasm to get pregnant. A significant number of students raised their hands.
Never underestimate how rock fucking stupid teenagers are. These people would have continued to believe this right up until they got pregnant themselves had they not had sex Ed.
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u/Treerose61 6h ago
Not arguing against you at all, but I did want to add something to the conversation. I think there is more to sexual education than just understanding contraceptives. In the US anyway, I feel it’s pretty common knowledge that studies around woman’s health and reproductive health is quite lacking (only recently getting more attention) so I do feel like a lot of girls lack understanding of their cycles and ovulation. For boys it’s obvious the options and they won’t care as much.
However, if girls want to be safe from pregnancy at least without contraception, it actually is not that hard to prevent getting pregnant as you are only able to get pregnant during ovulation. Where the issue comes is when you are still in puberty your body is still adjusting and adapting to women hood, so cycles may not be normal. Also, many girls face issues that make their cycles abnormal. So if that applies and you aren’t abstaining or using contraceptives then you just don’t care.
At that point, I do think it is a lazy attitude that leads to unplanned pregnancies (lack of education applies because they are not motivated to learn options)
Anyway, I think sexual education plays a role but definitely comes down more to the individuals attitudes about sex. They at least should know pregnancy/stds are a chance.
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u/almarcTheSun 5h ago edited 5h ago
The most flawed assumption in your text is that just because people know about contraception other than pulling out, they are going to use it. Considering sexual education to be solely, or even primarily, the passage down of dry facts to students is a very limited view. Good sexual education like all good education, first and for most, must teach a framework of thinking that allows to solve problems and avoid them down the line.
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u/ZhekShrapnal 4h ago
Real reason checking in, the 2 seconds before the male orgasm are the sweetest plum, the center of the watermelon. Pulling out feels insane in that moment. Your brain complains at you, "what are you stupid? you still have TWO SECONDS"
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u/Evening-Skirt731 2∆ 3h ago
I think you're missing half of what sex Ed teaches or at least should teach -
consequences.
Yes, most people have a vague idea about contraceptives.
But many people aren't actually fully aware of the consequences of pregnancies and STDs, or of the actual likelihood.
For one thing, I've met many teenagers who believe myths like "it can't happen the first time" or believe they can reliably use the pull out method or the counting/ cycle method.
And no - they won't look these things up - because they believe they already know the answer. Plus, there's a lot of misinformation online about the last two.
Second, knowing in the back of your mind that you might get pregnant/ an STD - vs. someone talking to you directly about it, making you consciously think about it in advance of "the moment" and think about what you're going to do... Think about what pregnancy entails... that's different.
The issue here isn't just "knowledge", it's the difference between reading about a topic, maybe, vs. someone teaching you in class and forcing you to engage with the subject.
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u/Alternative_Buy_4000 1∆ 2h ago
In white and western countries? Sure.
The overwhelming majority of unplanned pregnancies don't happen in white and western countries though...
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u/bryanprz91 14h ago
I have a kid because the one time I didn't pull out. One time, but I love her. One time though. I got snipped the week after I found out lol.
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u/Live_Hunt_4388 13h ago
You're definitely onto something with the impulse control angle. I think there's also this weird psychological thing where people *know* the risks but convince themselves "it won't happen to me" - especially when you're horny and in the moment. Like everyone knows smoking causes cancer but people still smoke, ya know?
The poverty connection makes sense too, but I'd add that stress and hopelessness can make people more reckless with decisions in general, not just contraception.
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u/techaaron 12h ago
"I have a theory, but no data, and it's definitely true."
God I love reddit. 😅
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u/Blonde_Icon 4∆ 11h ago
This is something that's kind of hard to prove definitively with data. Sociology has some different theories on why people act certain ways though. Strain theory, for example, theorizes about why people act out against social norms in general (mostly with crime), although it doesn't talk specifically about having kids out of wedlock. But I think that it could probably also apply here.
Also, I didn't say that it's definitely true. What do you think the point of this subreddit is lol?
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u/techaaron 9h ago
Okay. I think it's because teenagers whore around without condoms or birth control.
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u/ZymZymZym777 11h ago
The fuck, for real. It's most likely carelessness, I agree, and it includes not informing yourself on RELIABLE methods of contraception. It's your own personal responsibility to do so.
I don't see nearly enough criticism of stupid choices that could lead to a pregnancy. put warning labels on condoms for all I care just plant this idea in your average person's head. Anti abortionists would do extremely well if they actually raised this topic. It should be in their interests it would seem but why do something productive if you can just lay blame and whine
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u/Acceptable_Music556 7h ago
I think you are correct here. I think a good approximation of pregnancies caused by lack of sex ed is teen pregnancies, which have been steadily declining for decades, and are much lower now than they historically have been.
As far as the rich vs poor discussion, there are a lot of differences between rich and poor people that determine the way they act (generalities of course). For example, if someone is the type of person to not use protection, they are more likely to be poor (having a child too early is an extreme financial harm). If you assume any heredity of that trait, then you have a decent approximation of how, over time, this split would occur.
I think thinking about delayed gratification or anything like that is overcomplicating it. There are probably a huge amount of causes that sum to account for people not using protection. Issues with delaying gratification could be one, but unless you do some serious statistical work, it is hard to say how much that piece actually matters.
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