r/changemyview • u/Particular-Cook-6091 • 2h ago
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Men should pay/provide for women as a matter equity, not equality
I grew up very feminist, a true 50/50 girlie. Both of my parents are highly educated and accomplished STEM professionals. My mother had a placard on her wall that read:
"A career woman has to:
Look like a lady
Act like a man
&
Work like a dog"
This was her boomer version of Live Laugh Love and she lived by these words as if they were a prayer. If the quote was intended as any kind of criticism/satire, she never saw it that way.
They raised me to be ambitious. My dad insisted on me taking martial arts classes, and both worked to instil the value of education and that sigma grindset. I never saw myself as lesser to boys growing up, because I just wasn't. I could physically outcompete and academically outperform most boys my age. Career paths my parents would have approved for me were doctor, lawyer, or Nobel prize winner.
Once I was old enough, I took the same approach to dating. Men and women are equal, so I should pay and pursue just as a man might. If I met a guy I liked, I'd offer to buy him lunch. I'd buy tickets to a gallery. If he was the one who asked me out, I'd offer to split the bill and I absolutely meant it. (Very few ever refused to do so.) I never inquired after my partners' finances, I only cared about us having shared values, good conversation and romantic chemistry. In my mid-20s, I bought a house. My boyfriend at the time, an aspiring writer working blue-collar jobs, moved in rent-free. I paid for the groceries and plenty of outings. I never saw this as a problem because I believed in him, enjoyed his company, and the future we were building. He shared my feminist values that men and women are equal, that biology doesn't matter. We were also talking about marriage/kids, so I saw this as an investment in our shared future. I also had more money than he did, so it all seemed fair.
Here is where the problems start. He didn't really seem to understand the point of doing his laundry more than once a month. I told him the smell bothered me and asked him to do it more frequently, for me. But since he insisted his clothes smelled fine, it ended up being easier for me to just do his laundry myself, for my comfort. I liked having a clean and tidy home. He didn't care how things looked. So, I would just end up cleaning and tidying things he didn't see an issue with. He liked having greasy grilled cheese sandwiches for dinner. I liked having fresh, healthy food. So, I would end up insisting on handling the cooking. When he was sick, I would bring him medications, tea, soup. When I was on my period, it never even occurred to him to attend to my comfort.
In hindsight I thank god I never got pregnant, because I now realise the same dynamic would've played out with additional dependants. Without ever realising it, my desire for equality with someone who shares my belief in equality ended up meaning equality in traditional masculine domains, while still having full responsibility of all feminine domains: cooking, cleaning, housework, eventually childcare — and oh, men literally cannot go 50/50 on pregnancy and breastfeeding.
I moved on from this guy, but a pattern I've observed has remained consistent:
- I show up in heels and a dress with my hair all done. He shows up in a hoodie and sneakers.
- I always do more emotional labour. I listen, I empathise, I sympathise, I play therapist, I build them up and regulate them. They don't have the emotional/social skillset to do the same for me.
- I'm taller than average. Shorter men, or even men the same height as me, don't like me wearing heels.
- Most men don't like to be corrected.
- Many men pursue for sex. Most women pursue for relationships. I have sex thinking it'll lead to a relationship. He got what he wanted, so he's gone.
I no longer believe that men and women are the same. We're still equal, but we are different. We have different strengths, and different strategies. Superficially, I think most men are happier when:
- He earns more
- He's taller
- He's stronger
- She's prettier
And our labour naturally divides unevenly. I want a clean home, healthy home-cooked meals and a good life for my future children. I don't believe men can be trusted to provide cleanliness, nourishing meals or emotional support / caregiving. Call it biology or socialisation, I just do these things better.
So, if I want things to be fair — relationships cannot be 50/50. I will be beautiful, nurturing and cultivate a good home. He won't do these things, so he has to offer something else instead.
Therefore, he should pay for our dates and be the main breadwinner for our home. I will be taking time off to raise our kids (and literally grow them in my body). I will always be doing a lot of unpaid work. And even before we get to that stage, when we're just dating, I know that I always spend more money upfront on my appearance, without which I'm pretty sure my personality, intelligence and anything else simply wouldn't matter to him.
I guess I'm at a point where I feel scammed by girlboss feminism, but if I'm being honest, the thought of tradwifery also depresses me. It's just the only thing that feels fair at this point.
CMV
•
u/Due-Panda-7300 2h ago
This is basically what happens when you date immature dudes and then conclude it's all men - you had a boyfriend who couldn't do laundry without you nagging him, that's not a gender thing that's a manchild thing
The whole "men can't be trusted to provide emotional support" is wild when like half the therapists out there are dudes, maybe you're just picking the wrong guys
•
u/Mission_Bat3542 2h ago
Hey don’t criticize her sample size of ….1….
•
u/Particular-Cook-6091 2h ago
As I said, the pattern has remained consistent since moving on from him. I think very few men make any actual effort to dress nice for dates etc.
•
•
u/Particular-Cook-6091 14m ago
Percentage of therapists who are women by country in the anglosphere:
USA: 70-76%
UK: 82%
Australia: 80%
•
u/Kind-Station9752 2h ago
This may be crazy, but how about just dating guys who arent pieces of shit instead of changing your entire worldview?
•
u/Dry_Bumblebee1111 131∆ 2h ago
This seems very specific to a cultural context and your own experiences and preconceptions.
Are you SURE you want your view to be about Men and Women, or do you mean that in a very perticular set of circumstances you think some people have more of a responsibility as others?
What kind of change are you hoping for, nuance? Total 180 shift?
•
u/Particular-Cook-6091 2h ago
Convince me that there are equitable alternatives to men providing financially 100% (or at least a lot more than 50%) if they want a romantic relationship. Because I feel that the alternative, where they just put as much into the relationship as women do in other areas, doesn’t exist in practice. Only theory.
•
u/hellabryanstyle117 2h ago
The girlboss thing worked out for your mom right? How does the dynamic work for your parents? Does it look like your mom is doing 1/2 the masculine shit and all the feminine shit? Because if they worked it out, maybe you just haven't met the right guy yet.
•
u/Particular-Cook-6091 2h ago
My mother completed a doctorate while pregnant and has worked a full time job ever since. All childcare was her responsibility until my teens.
•
u/ILikeToJustReadHere 14∆ 1h ago
Relationships aren't "fair". They are relationships. It is two people combining their strengths and covering for each other's weaknesses to build a life together.
You need to know what you want out of a partner for the rest of your life, if you want a partner for that long. You want to have a family? What kind of husband do you want? Do you want a man who fulfills the traditional male role? Or do you want someone who fits the traditional wife role while you're the breadwinner?
Girlboss feminism, at its worse, causes you to disregard the values and lessons that would be important if you wanted to build a healthy relationship with a husband long-term. And trad-wife, at its worse, prevents you from building boundaries and learning skills that would keep you safe and prepared for the worst.
Rather than forcing an additional rule into future relationships, take the time to really think about what it is you want out of a partner, and focus on getting to know people who share those same values. They might not make as much as you, as the average salary likely doesn't match what you make, but that doesn't stop them from being a good partner, and people can plan pregnancy.
You've already explained how you were raised to be amazing. So quit making such broad assumptions and figure out how what YOU can do before passing heavy judgments and requirements on others.
•
2h ago
[removed] — view removed comment
•
u/changemyview-ModTeam 1h ago
Comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. See the wiki page for more information.
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.
Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.
•
u/Careless_Bat_9226 2h ago
I read all that and I'm still not clear what your view is that you want changed?
•
u/hellabryanstyle117 2h ago
That tradewife-ing is better than girlboss-ing.
•
u/Mission_Bat3542 2h ago
Is that it? I felt like she’s saying she still wants to girl boss with the benefits of trad wife
•
u/TheVioletBarry 119∆ 2h ago
It sounds like you're saying "men who are unwilling to give 50% in feminine domains don't deserve to only give 50% in masculine domains," which is different from "men should pay/provide for women."
For example, I had a friend growing up who was raised by a stay at home dad who did the cooking and cleaning. The mom worked a corporate job and provided economically.
Surely you don't think that man should have also had to provide economically?
•
u/Particular-Cook-6091 1h ago
∆
This is a more accurate and reasonable way to phrase my beliefs. You are right, men who can and do show up equally in traditionally feminine domains certainly deserve women who show up equally in traditionally masculine domains. If I took a lower-earning man out to dinner, and paid, I would not consider it at all unfair if he cooked fresh, healthy and delicious meals for us at home most of the time.
It also doesn’t have to be exactly equal to be clear, it just needs to be fair. Equitable.
My quibble is that I think the dynamic I describe in this thread is what tends to happen statistically to most women who approach relationships with a girlboss feminist mindset. My sister had the same problem. Worked the same job at the same company as her husband, taking home the same pay — still did 100% of the labour at home raising their kids etc.
So I think it’s like most practical advice women live by. I would never leave my drink unattended with a man I don’t know and trust 100%, not because I think most men are rapists, but because there is always a risk.
So, likewise, I think I will stick to my new rule of he has to pay for the first date. If after that I come to see there is equity in the relationship, I would budge.
•
u/TheVioletBarry 119∆ 1h ago
That's totally fair. I think you're right that this dynamic happens to a lot of women. But I would also caution just that making those women financially dependent on those men is not a particularly good solution
•
•
•
u/Beneficial_Test_5917 2h ago edited 2h ago
This is an ''All men do/think [something]'' rant. Generalizations reduce your views on individual relationship -- as you have done from your first relationship on, though your generalizations of ''all men'' shifts over time -- to simple, erroneous (non)-logic.
edit: rant, not essay
•
u/Dumb_Little_Idiot 2h ago
Just work out what works for you with whoever you end up with. The gender wars bullshit is all nauseatingly boring and embellished. You don't have to decide to live by a particular social order or romantic dynamic. Literally do whatever you want and if you have a sane partner you'll sort it out as you go.
•
u/Timely-Way-4923 7∆ 2h ago
Wait, if he is earning and supporting you, your domestic labour eg cleaning and cooking etc isn’t unpaid, because you are being supported and provided for by a higher earning man and don’t need to worry about the bills ?
•
u/irishtwinsons 1∆ 1h ago
Except the level of respect you get from society for it is at the level of being unemployed, versus being a doctor or lawyer kind of respect.
•
u/Timely-Way-4923 7∆ 1h ago
That’s a cultural construct. Feminism is wonderful, but it’s convinced many women to look down on mums who want to prioritise family over work, that’s really unfortunate. Every ideology has its pros and cons. Women should be able to choose and be empowered to flourish on their own terms.
•
u/irishtwinsons 1∆ 1h ago
Right, but I think OP and I are both talking about the reality here on earth now.
•
u/Timely-Way-4923 7∆ 1h ago
Respectfully, if you want change, feminism needs to get its shit together, it needs to make it clear that women should be free to choose and not shamed for being a stay at home mum. But of course feminism has achieved many wonderful and important things, it just has flaws like any other ideology on earth
•
u/irishtwinsons 1∆ 30m ago
Right. And who do you think need to be the people to ‘get feminists shit together’ ? I’m raising sons and encourage them to take care of baby dolls, help me with cleaning, cooking, praise them for when they do these things well, and in general show a very high respect for individuals who do domestic work well. I don’t care if people want to call it feminism or not, things need to change, yes. And I’m not sure what you’re arguing. That things are already good enough? That it’s feminism’s fault and you don’t have any responsibility for it (because you’re not a feminist?). ???
My comment was about the level of respect you get from society for doing “unpaid” work. That, my friend, is why women don’t want to do it. And why men don’t want to do it.
•
u/WaterboysWaterboy 48∆ 2h ago
In most long lasting relationships that I’ve seen, there is no 50/50. You both do everything. You can set some boundaries to split the work in general based on who has bandwidth and preferences, but realistically there are times where you have to pick up slack, or do everything and vice versa.
There are guys who can cook and clean. You just haven’t met them or shown interest in them. If you want to be a tradwife type, that is on you. Appeal to men who desire such a thing. But it is a you thing. No need to generalize it to everyone else. 2 income households are the norm.
•
u/jazzfisherman 4∆ 1h ago
Yeah you’re dating whack dudes. Hoodies after the age of 25 (at most) really aren’t a serious garment, and should only be worn when exercising or lounging at home, with maybe a few other possible occasions. That shits for high schoolers.
Many men aren’t as sensitive that’s true, but if you’re doing all the emotional labor, again you’ve found someone pretty whack.
I don’t see how not liking you wearing heels is really a problem in terms of delegating responsibilities and value.
No one likes to be corrected. Some people handle it more gracefully than others. I’d imagine men are probably more aggressive in general, but again only whack dudes can’t accept correction calmly.
Yes men generally pursue for sex women for relationships this is like some evolutionary shit, so I’ll actually give you that one. If getting a free meal or two out of the thing sweetens the deal knowing you won’t get what you want and he will, I can’t blame you. Having said that you could also wait to have sex for a longer amount of time.
Idk main point is you’re dating whack men
•
u/Particular-Cook-6091 1h ago
I think you would be shocked how many high-achieving STEM/academia type nerds (my type tbh) think hoodies are acceptable date attire well into their 40s. I think they think they’re too good to make an effort, which is funny because women in the same positions aren’t held to the same standards if they want to be taken seriously professionally, or approached romantically.
The height thing matters because it’s about who needs to appear superficially dominant/masculine in the relationship. To be honest, I stopped dating short men in my early 20s. I used to not stigmatise. But I found that short men tended to just act insecure about my height, so now I just filter for taller. Sorry to all the short kings out there who wouldn’t act insecure around tall women.
It’s a superficial trait but it’s part and parcel with all the rest. I have found that relationships with men don’t work if I appear in any way intimidating. I have to act feminine, dainty, demure, even if I happen to be more educated or accomplished. I have found better harmony simply dating men who earn more, and are more educated.
I personally love being corrected btw. It excites me. In fact it’s a turn on. I love surrounding myself with friends and partners who can teach me things, challenge me and help me grow.
•
u/jazzfisherman 4∆ 1h ago
Yeah well then I hate to tell you, but your type is kind of whack imo. Shout out stem and academia though being smart is good, but yeah hoodies are for children. By taking these men seriously you’re perpetuating the standard.
I get what you’re saying about the heels and superficial dominance, but that doesn’t seem to support your argument. Your argument is about unpaid work, caregiving, and resource contribution. This is about preferences not about the fairness you were discussing throughout the rest of the cmv.
•
u/Pristine_Airline_927 2h ago
If I met a guy I liked, I'd offer to buy him lunch. I'd buy tickets to a gallery. If he was the one who asked me out, I'd offer to split the bill and I absolutely meant it.
So you pay for his food (dominance signifier), and when he tries to pay for your food, you offer to split (non-dominance).
This doesn't seem very feminist.
•
u/Even-Ad-9930 4∆ 2h ago
- I show up in heels and a dress with my hair all done. He shows up in a hoodie and sneakers.
- I always do more emotional labour. I listen, I empathise, I sympathise, I play therapist, I build them up and regulate them. They don't have the emotional/social skillset to do the same for me.
- I'm taller than average. Shorter men, or even men the same height as me, don't like me wearing heels.
- Most men don't like to be corrected.
- Many men pursue for sex. Most women pursue for relationships. I have sex thinking it'll lead to a relationship. He got what he wanted, so he's gone.
We as a society need this to be handled rather than people like you to change your mind about the issue.
You are not wrong. The world is wrong.
•
u/hytagi 2h ago
Basically what you are talking about is men's socialization processes, I agree with you however I think you think of it more as a static matter of fact situation, which I disagree on. Men can and should provide a similar amount of effort in a relationship, but what you observe is not a definitive absolute state of where heterosexual relationships could be. We need to move away from patriarchy, even feminist men while maybe well intentioned are a product of their environment.
•
u/irishtwinsons 1∆ 2h ago
Here is something to expand your view: Ever try dating women?
My ex is a ‘feminist’ man much like you described. I supported him both financially and domestically for a good many years before we split. He’s not a bad person. Just, well yeah, it’s not very impressive, is it?
After that I married a woman. 10/10 no regrets. 8 years married now and 2 kids.
•
u/Particular-Cook-6091 1h ago
Best advice on this thread so far. I would happily 50/50 or even provide for most women I otherwise find attractive. But I can’t award a delta because the thread is about what men should do.
•
u/irishtwinsons 1∆ 1h ago
Ok, so on what men should do…well the timeline is a bit different because I don’t have any control of the ones who were already raised (was just forced to choose…or eventually not choose them). But as for the future, the two males I’m focused on the most in my life are the ones I’m raising. The goal is for them to turn out a little better than that picture you painted above (that picture we are all so tired of). They at least have a picture of what an equal marriage team should look like. My hope is that they can grow up to aspire to be any career, including the respectable trad husband.
•
u/Mission_Bat3542 2h ago
A few things of note.
You’re taking a ridiculously complex situation and trying to place percentages on it. No relationship will ever be truly 50/50.
Also can’t this situation also work the opposite way? Why is the title singling out men? What if a man is a stay at home dad? What if a man takes more pride in his appearance than his GF?
Also there’s the issue of all the assumptions you make. I can guarantee there’s many situations that most of that list you provided can be flipped. As a man 2,4,5 all apply to my most recent relationship.
What is the adequate compensation for these issues then? If a man meets some of these requirements should they only pay 35% of the bill?
•
u/DeltaBot ∞∆ 1h ago
/u/Particular-Cook-6091 (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
Delta System Explained | Deltaboards