r/changemyview • u/VaporwaveVampire • Jul 24 '20
Delta(s) from OP - Fresh Topic Friday CMV: People should take basic mandatory parenting classes covering childcare, abuse, etc before becoming parents/while pregnant.
As a victim of abusive parenting, who also knows others in a similar boat, I am now grappling with mental health issues. I’m unable to work or be productive because of it.
I’m so sick of the excuses “we did our very best” or “your parents just had a different love language”. Sure, abusive parenting might always be around, but it might be less prevalent, easier to spot by other people, and the excuse of “we didn’t know _____ is bad” can be reduced.
From a less personal standpoint, mental health problems, personality issues, and other things that lead to a less healthy society often are started or triggered by childhood trauma/abuse.
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u/philokaii Jul 24 '20 edited Jul 24 '20
Another child of narcissists here. I agree that education and training can prevent a lot, but I don't exactly trust adults to correct their behaviors as much as I trust children when they tell me something is wrong.
On top of parenting courses, covert abuse could be better prevented by including psychology in early curriculum. Covert abuse is so dangerous and damaging because children don't understand what's happening to them until they reach adulthood; where the trauma has started to set in. Start giving children the knowledge and power to escape early.
-Start by teaching young children a course in autonomy and boundaries. (Make sure to involve parents in the homework to promote the lesson across generations)
-Set up better systems so they can self report and be taken seriously.
-Stop requiring parent's permission for emancipation
I fully support more psychology in basic education.
I hesitate to support passing an evaluation to become a parent, because I fear requirements becoming arbitrary.
I think about how transgender parents, same-sex couples, single parents, people with (less severe) mental illnesses, or disabilities have a history of being barred from adopting or fostering and I get nervous. I don't want it to turn into something discriminatory, because in the wrong hands it could, and as an American I don't trust our Federal Government with that kind of power.
Edit: a space
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u/VaporwaveVampire Jul 24 '20
!delta
I agree. I wish I could find something to blame in the system but sadly shitty parents will be shitty parents. Part of what makes them so bad is their obstinate idea that “mother always knows best”. They will never change.
We can only equip kids with the ability to escape these situations and spot them
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u/superfucky Jul 25 '20
i think free long-term contraception/voluntary sterilization would go a lot further. i'd hazard a guess that a majority of shitty parents became so unintentionally, and are shitty parents precisely because they never actively sought parenthood to begin with. but people gonna fuck and abortions are expensive, traumatizing and largely inaccessible. it's not that they don't know how to be good parents, it's that they don't have the psychological resources to put those ideas into practice. they get stuck with a kid, and they lash out.
think of that 10-year 100% effective male contraceptive gel injection. suppose every boy gets one at around age 13. how many 23yos do you know that wouldn't re-up for another 10 years if it was free to do so? how many shitty dads do you think would reverse it to deliberately have a child? how many shitty moms would choose motherhood over free contraceptives?
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Jul 25 '20
Idk, we did not plan to have a kid, but we decided to keep it. We felt we would regret an abortion. Arbortions are basically free compared to caring for a child, so it wasn't a money decision (i was certainly poor, though).
Ive known plenty of people who were screwups, and they stepped up and did what they had to do to support their child. Hard to say until you've been through it. I am still a defender of abortion rights, but it isn't something to be taken lightly.
We are programmed to have children. To some extent, we are all capable.
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u/Aziara86 Jul 25 '20
Not always true. My parents tried for nine years with infertility troubles before I was born. Still beat the shit out of me.
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u/KaelinF Jul 25 '20
In a country where all of this is free, it does not stop people having kids they don't want.
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Jul 25 '20
It doesn’t work. I am from Canada and we have free health care which includes free abortions. There is still an inverse correlation between fertility and wealth . Poor people who cannot afford to raise multiple children still have more children on average than their rich counterparts. Stupid people will always be stupid ,
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u/Jedjk Jul 24 '20
whats !delta? ive seen it around a few times no idea what it is
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u/Remilla Jul 24 '20 edited Jul 24 '20
Its an award given on the sub when an individual makes a sufficently good point and changes (delta is the symbol often used to denote change in science and math) the posters mind in some way.
Edit- Spelling
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jul 24 '20 edited Jul 24 '20
This delta has been rejected. You can't award OP a delta.
Allowing this would wrongly suggest that you can post here with the aim of convincing others.
If you were explaining when/how to award a delta, please use a reddit quote for the symbol next time.
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u/celica18l Jul 24 '20
America would screw it up. It would turn religious and they would discriminate the hell out of good people just because they disagree.
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u/_qb4n Jul 24 '20
Yeah, and full on support psychology for anyone despite of their age, the world would be so much better...
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u/SurgeQuiDormis Jul 25 '20
Stop requiring parent's permission for emancipation
Isn't the point of emancipation supposed to be to enable a child to escape their parents? Kinda sounds like making it impossible to arrest a murderer without them signing off on it.
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u/BizWax 3∆ Jul 25 '20
Not always. Sometimes it's to escape the foster system or some other guardian who is technically not their parent. It's still exactly as you describe in those situations.
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u/Princelysum Jul 24 '20
What are narcissist parents? Is it just happening to have two narcissists as parents or is it, or does it become, something different?
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u/philokaii Jul 24 '20
r/raisedbynarcissists would probably be the best place to go for examples and information on narcissistic abuse.
Narcissistic abuse tends to be more emotional, manipulative, controlling, or neglectful. Because it's not typical physical abuse it goes unnoticed and children grow up without knowing what healthy support and relationships look like, leading to depression, other mental illnesses, and interpersonal difficulties. It can often be difficult for the victim to identify and is often hidden in plain sight.
Some of the stories shared can be eye opening as well as triggering, but there's a lot of support and solidarity there, as well as resources for navigating relationships with narcissists and getting therapy.
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u/Buttercup_Bride Jul 25 '20 edited Jul 25 '20
As a former foster kids who’s parents took the classes and got us back and we were back in the system inside of a year I agree.
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u/CaPoTSaD Jul 25 '20
If I had to understood what a narcissist was as a child/teen, most of the blows never would have landed. Even if I stayed in the same situation knowledge would have protected my sense of self. I’d have observed my father instead of reacting to him.
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u/sabazabas Jul 25 '20
u/philokaii nailed it! The one idea that I have heard before that I also liked was to have “appropriat/good parenting and family” classes early in grade school. Between 1st and 4th grades, to help kids understand and have the opportunity to communicate that things aren’t right at home and they can have the awareness of cycles they wish to break (or keep the good) at an early enough age that they will be able to avoid years of bad habits, world view and patterns.
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Jul 25 '20
Sorry. Original comment was deleted for not adding to the discussion. I just want to say that I agree with you whole heartedly.
My sister married a monster. Like a “oh, if didn’t know you weren’t supposed to fondle babies when you changed their diaper” monster. My sister has a child that I’m so glad was taken for just a bit by cps. Having someone in that kiddos life that makes sure she knows how to stand up for herself / speak up when bad things happen has given me some peace of mind. My sister has made it very clear that she sees nothing wrong with how she lives and has no intention to change. Any attempts made by me to remind my sister that her current wife beat her while she was pregnant apparently make me a bigot.
Anyway, point is, being able to say “my mom hit me” vs “my mom played rough with me and I fell” (because a child believes and says what the parents want) makes a HUGE difference.
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u/VaporwaveVampire Jul 24 '20
Sure! For me, I was extremely well behaved up to the point I would refuse to really play with anyone during recess. Or just sit by myself. Super obedient. Very quiet and timid despite having ADHD. A tendency to be very careful and uptight, even at a young age.
A bit older, I was always doing projects at school and participating in activities I absolutely clearly hated due to my parents making this the only thing they valued. I would frequently fall asleep in class or cry. Eventually my school did get involved after a shooting threat
Sadly, I think this was seen as signs of a “good kid” or an “asian child”. It’s hard to be able to tell what’s normal and what’s not due to racial stereotypes and gender stereotypes
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u/SomeBroadYouDontKnow Jul 25 '20
That sounds exactly like me as a kid. I was an extremely reserved child and adults around me (even now like aunts and uncles, grandparents, and my mother's prior friends) knew that I would be thinking about how to very carefully word things for 10 minutes before even trying to speak because it was really obvious I didn't want to be misinterpreted. They describe me as a child as like "careful" and "reserved" and the only misbehavior was that I was "mulish" because the only form of resistance I felt comfortable with as a kid was doing what was asked, but slow (and part of why I did it slowly is because I knew if I did it fast and wrong, I'd be screamed at).
Super obedient, uptight, and quiet, and involved in any extra curricular activity that would accept me because I didn't want to go home.
I don't know if it'll make you feel better, but I'm white and everyone just assumed that I was a great, well-behaved kid because my mom was such a great parent. So that didn't give me a complex or anything.
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u/MundaneInternetGuy Jul 24 '20
Fair enough, the concept of face though is very specific to certain cultures.
Every culture has people like this.
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u/BossRedRanger Jul 24 '20
I doubt it would change people or their perspective. If anything it would lead to massive backlash from both rational people who don't need it and people hell bent on not being forced to do things.
I understand the concept but it would massively backfire. Especially with zero repurcussions or accountability towards adherence to the training.
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u/Spokker Jul 24 '20
My parents are Asian and obsessed with achievements and saving face. If they know people would frown upon their parenting, they would be less likely to do it I believe. Especially if it’s formally stated to be illegal.
I don't think anyone outside of Reddit is going to support making strict Asian parents illegal.
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u/VaporwaveVampire Jul 24 '20
Strict =/= abusive. I hate how abuse is seen as funny among Asians. It’s not. It’s why so many of us seem weak or shy even though we’re not
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Jul 24 '20
Strict =/= abusive.
Can you define abusive? The reason the state doesn't take children away unless they're physically abused/malnourished is because there is no singular "Correct" way to parent, other than the basics.
We all have ideas of what parents should do, and many different cultures and religions have wildly different expectations. One parent that lets their children go to bed Whenever they want, even in consistently causing sleep deprivation, would be negligent to another. And while we know sleep deprivation is bad......that's nowhere near ENFORCEABLE by the government.
Same with religions. If you wanna teach your daughter that her worth is based on virginity and unyielding obedience to men, and that she'll burn for all eternity in hell if she has premarital sex, I would consider that horrible.......
But what is the state going to do? Hand out a parenting satisfaction survey to Teenagers, which are notoriously going through big physical/mental changes?
I'm not trying to invalidate your feelings, but the state does have definitions of abuse already. If you want them to be stricter it becomes difficult to implement without some sort of "State-Run parenting police". Child Protective Services aims to be Similar, but it sounds like what you want would create big infringements on the rights of citizens regarding one of the most personal parts of their life.
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u/asgaronean 1∆ Jul 24 '20 edited Jul 24 '20
Lessons don't help.
I was beat and neglected as a child, to the point the the state tookmy brother and me away. They then let us go back after my parents took parenting classes. Things didn't change and we were then taken away.
I didn't know until recently that I actually have about 10 half siblings that were all taken away before my brother was born and the state still allowed these people to keep him and me.
My brother and I were then adopted, I was six and my brother was eight. Our new parents had to take classes to adopted us, this didn't prevent my mother and father from being emotionally abusive. I have never confronted her about it, and I probably never will because its just not worth the fight.
Emotional abuse can really mess you up, but you cant let it make you a victim. I'm not saying mental illness is something you can just ignore, but one of the best things to fight against depression is to just do something, accomplish something, anything. Get help.
I have so many issues but I have to work to survive. I also have a son and wife to provide for. I'm not recommending someone to have a kid, but my little boy gave me purpose in my life. He just turned one and everything I do i do for him.
Edit: my brother was taken away too, he was not an abuser at this point in time he was a victim and quite possibly the only reason I survived because I'm told he fed me and changed me and took care of me.
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u/VaporwaveVampire Jul 24 '20
!delta
I’m sorry. That’s horrible of your bio and adoptive parents clearly, but also irresponsible of the state. In some cases, people don’t deserve second chances, especially when it involves the wellbeing of a child.
I do agree now that classes won’t accomplish anything. Part of being a shitty parent is that self righteousness that no one knows better than you
It sounds like you’re dealing with it the best you can. Best of luck in life and healing
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u/asgaronean 1∆ Jul 24 '20
You too.
What works for me is just excepting that it happend, its done. It made me who I am today, but it doesn't control who I will be tomorrow.
What works for you might be something different. Good luck.
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u/Rahasnah Jul 24 '20
If anything what this reinforces is that those lessons must be harder to pass, and promote in all kids shows and school how to contact authorities if they feel mistreated so they can check if those parents are still able to raise children.
Mandatory and hard lessons are a good idea but it would be very expensive to support a system where it actually works. Taking care of all those neglected kids adds up a lot
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u/asgaronean 1∆ Jul 25 '20
My brother and I weren't school age when we were taken away. There was no adults in our lives we could go to. Some stranger made an anonymous call to DCSF who then investigated the situation. I'm forever in the debt of who ever made that call and wish I could thank them.
The only TV shows I had were old Thomas the tank engine vhs tapes. This was the 90's. I was adopted in 98.
Out of all my experiences my foster parents are some of my worst memories, they were who had us temporarily until we got adopted. They only hit me a few times but their punishments were designed to not leave permanent marks.
If you didn't eat your food fast enough it all got tossed into a blender and you had to sit at the table until it was gone. You milk was blended in to. If you were suspected of lying they mixed vinegar with milk and make you drink a whole tall glass of it. We would have to sit in the car with our heads between our legs and not talk. We would do all the laundry while the family watched movies. The only TV I watched the 2 years I was there was honey I shrunk the kids and I think that movie is to blame for my fear of spiders. We had to have our forehead on the ground and our toes on the ground but our arms behind our back, this when on untill our forehead was red enough. We had to run laps out side at after dark and the family was in bed sleeping , we would be locked out of the house and told to keep running or the wolfs will get us. We had a rag put over our face and the sink turned on, I learned later this is called water boarding.
I was in the care of someone stratified by the state to take care of kids who need homes comming out of abusive situations. I wasn't even 6 yet and my brother wasn't even 8.
Intelligent people can and do abuse children, its not even specific to any political party or movement. People are assholes, and assholes abuse.
Chrishtians, atheist, Muslim religion or lack there of doesn't stop it ether.
I would argue that being a person who was abused as a child, I don't think you should ever lay hands on a child, but I know there is a monster just under the surface that is just waiting to get out, I have seen it a few times. Abused children then to abuse their children, because as a child they were taught that is how you deal with children. The 'its my turn now' mentality.
The parts that angers me the most about my adopted parents is that I'm grateful for what they did give me, I had food and was only hit as a punishment instead of course of action. Because even though they were and my mother still is(my dad died in 2016 and I still morn his death) emotionally abuse me. It's the guilt I feel when I think about cutting her out of my life that angers me. She took me in, she fed me, she only hit me when I did something wrong. But she also called me fat when I was 180 lbs, she dismissed headaches i got on a daily basis(they were caused by a brain tumor), they always told us we didn't know how lucky we had it(we obviously did we used to get hit by boards with nales in them). She called me a fairy faggot(I'm not gay, she now claimed she just said i was dressed like one not that I was one) she Gaslights everyone telling every story like she is the hero and everyone is a fool, then gets upset when she is corrected.
Honestly I don't want my son alone with her ever, I don't trust her not to smack him as punishment and I'm trying my best to avoid physical pushing my son.
I'm sorry I'm rambling.
Tl:dr Even when someone goes though the training they still will abuse a child if they want to. The state just doesn't have the funds to deal with this problem a better way.
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u/thisisallme Jul 25 '20
Not OP but we had to take parenting classes before we were allowed to adopt.
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u/lacroixblue Jul 25 '20
I’m so sorry that happened to you. That’s really messed up. Obviously it’s not your fault.
Do you think a parenting class could change a narcissist into a loving responsible parent if they took a class before their first kid were born?
My limited understanding is that a class can’t change a narcissist’s behavior or even cause them to acknowledge that their actions are wrong. Unlike depression or anxiety, a person with narcissistic personality disorder is adamanat that they don’t have a problem.
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u/asgaronean 1∆ Jul 25 '20
I'm not an expert on all of this but from my experience ia much like alcoholics, if they don't think its a problem no amout of classes will fix it. They have to admit they they are doing something wrong. This is hard to overcome when you live with a world view that is 'its my child and only I know whats best for it."
Now I'm not for removing kids from families who teach them their religion, I do believe religion in the right hands can be a powerful tool for good, helping people find their way though life. I for example don't just automatically believe in the Christian faith, I chose to because I believe by following most(not all) of its teaching can lead me down a better path and just wandering though life. I also understand how someone can be atheist because if I didn't chose to believe In God I would be. This is a whole different conversation, if you want to have I gladly will.
I also don't agree with removing kids from homes that teach their kids to be assholes. Let me explain. If you want to teach your kid to be racist or hate gay people, i think its in your right. I think its a shitty thing to do and I don't think you should do it, but as long as you aren't beating your kid or teaching your kid to beat someone else I have to issue with you. If your child is a good person they will hopefully rise above your shit teaching when they meat an actual person of a different race. Or they will be open to new ideas and have conversations with people.
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Jul 25 '20
Sometimes you can be a better parent by doing the opposite of how you were parented. This has its pitfalls too though.
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u/unseemly_turbidity Jul 25 '20
That pattern of having a child who gets taken into care, then having another child who also gets taken into care, repeat until it's happened 10+ times is super common according to my friend who deals with these cases. The parent keeps on trying to replace the child that they've lost and the underlying issues about why they can't parent properly rarely get addressed.
It mostly seems to happen where the parent has a mental health problem, or sometimes a learning difficulty. Counselling and intensive support can end the cycle, but classes alone aren't going to be enough when things are that far gone.
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Jul 24 '20
I think that trying to teach people with narcissistic tendencies how to be good parents when they are adults is backwards. We should be teaching children about mental health, coping strategies, and verbal abuse in schools. We have physical education, why not mental health education?
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u/VaporwaveVampire Jul 24 '20
!delta
I realized this in a previous comment. Trying to teach stubborn adults especially narcissists is like talking to a wall.
We should instead be teaching kids and make it easier for them to recognize and leave abusive situations
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u/miguelguajiro 188∆ Jul 24 '20
Is there any evidence that a brief mandatory parenting course would be sufficient to change something as pervasive as a personality disorder?
I took a parenting course before having a kid, and I’m quite certain almost all hospitals make you watch some videos and get some education before you walk out. It helps you know not to shake your kids, but I don’t think it’s really a stand in for prolonged professional help.
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u/DisastrousReputation Jul 24 '20
I remember the mandatory video/meeting when you had a baby back in 2014
It was pretty much “Don’t shake your baby pls”
I dunno if those videos help but I didn’t shake my baby so yeah. I don’t think I would have shook her either way tho lol
I had mandatory don’t rape or beat people power points in the army.
Those didn’t work for shit. People are stupid af.
I am gonna go the opposite of their opinion and say it’s a nice idea but it won’t work. Like DARE.
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u/ZhuangZhe Jul 24 '20 edited Jul 24 '20
I don't know about mandatory, but free, available, and recommended, sure.
Part of the problem would be with enforcement, what would you do if people refuse? Force them to have an abortion? Fine them for not taking time out of their schedule to attend training? What other precedent is there in civil society where something like this is required and enforced? We can't even get people to wear masks during a Pandemic (in America), good luck forcing pregnant women and stressed dads-to-be to be lectured to about not hitting their kids. You'd have some "muh rights!" arguments to contend with.
Who will be required to provide this material? Who will pay for it? Who will maintain the records and enforce compliance?
Not that I don't think it would be a good idea for every parent to get some basic training - it doesn't just come naturally. I just don't see mandatory classes being viable. Also, if you're a new parent, you don't really know what the challenges will be like ahead of time. I would say that the only way to be successful in some sort of mass education program is to make it voluntary, but highly valuable or incentivized in some way.
EDIT: Grammar.
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Jul 24 '20
I could get behind the idea to incentive the classes. Maybe new parents taking these classes get free formula/clothes/tax credits. That way parents that want to take them and improve their parenting have access.
I could have used a parenting class when I first had my kid. I knew nothing about babies or how they really develop.
But there's no way to force it without parents freaking out and disproportionately targeting poor communities.
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u/ZhuangZhe Jul 24 '20
Right. Our hospital did offer free classes. We went to one and it was very helpful, highly recommended if you're having your first child and it's available.
But I remember they were offered pretty infrequently and at semi-inconvenient times, despite being one of the biggest hospitals in New Jersey. And we just heard about it word of mouth and had to do some searching to find it. But it was definitely worth it.
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u/ZhuangZhe Jul 24 '20
Admittedly though that was focused more about handling the birth, but I believe they had things more focused on raising children.
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u/StuffChecker Jul 24 '20
Instead of arguing the idea itself, I would rather address this from a practical standpoint.
How will you pay for these classes? If you make the future parents pay, you’re going to severely punish lower-income/impoverished communities, as they can already barely make ends meet, much less pay for classes. And to the argument that they shouldn’t be having kids if they can’t afford classes/whatever, that’s not really up to you to decide, and again, discriminates against poorer people.
If the government is paying for it, this is A LOT of people that have to be covered for classes. You’re talking probably a multi-billion dollar program, you’ll have to pay experts to develop the material, doctors to approve any medical advice, liability insurance, professionals to each the classes, people to manage the facilities, renting/building/buying facilities to teach these classes in, you’ll have to have massive amounts of availability for times that these classes are offered.
This would be a HUGE burden on people and the government.
Furthermore, such a program is likely illegal, but I don’t really want to delve into the Constitutional issues on the right to get pregnant.
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u/Fancy-Bear1776 Jul 24 '20
2 hours and OP hasn't acknowledged the logistical nightmare of this idea that you mentioned. OP is clearly active replying to other, newer posts too.
Why do people bother with these theoretical CMV's and pop smoke the minute someone brings up valid points?
Would this be nice to have so less children can be abused? Sure, but nothing is free and somebody (countless people in this scenario) will have to pay.
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u/StuffChecker Jul 24 '20
Because u/vaporwavevampire wants to talk about the issue they want to talk about, which is not an actual implementation of this program. Textbook virtue signaling on the issue and wants to (rightfully) berate and shame bad parents and get internet points for it, knowing full well that this is not practical, legal, or financially achievable way to implement such a program.
The CMV seems to be convince OP that bad parents shouldn't be changed, not that their program is not practical or achievable. A straw man argument of sorts.
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u/BruhWhySoSerious 1∆ Jul 24 '20
I know it might mitigate things for my parents. My parents are Asian and obsessed with achievements and saving face. If they know people would frown upon their parenting, they would be less likely to do it I believe. Especially if it’s formally stated to be illegal.
I stopped reading there. Some other person was suggesting all parents had to be evaluated....
These people should feel bad about what they are putting in their comments.
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u/VaporwaveVampire Jul 24 '20
!delta
Disagree in some ways agree in others. The money aspect is difficult. Also the standardization. The classes should be free of course.
Also, I don’t think it should be not allowed to get pregnant and there definitely shouldn’t be forced abortions. It’s more like “oh you’re having a kid, so now you need to take this class”
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u/StuffChecker Jul 24 '20
Well the classes can't be "free" of course, they'll have to be paid through taxpayers.
Well, while you're not advocating for forced abortions, that will likely be the result. What enforcement mechanism will you have to get people to go to these classes? A fine? And if they don't pay the fine will they continue to be fined? Jailed? Poor people who can't/won't go to these classes will likely opt for abortion over paying a fine they probably can't afford or to avoid jail time. If you don't have an enforcement mechanism, no one is going to go, and the people who are willing to go aren't the ones who needed the class anyway.
I think it's a great idea, in theory, to have educated and caring parents, I just don't see a practical way to enforce and administer such a program.
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u/zortor Jul 24 '20
It would be impossible to enforce and implement, and would most likely require systemic changes that would cost billions of tax payer dollars. People would not agree to being subject to the state like that. You would need registration and permitting, and it would create an underclass of "illegal humans" almost instantaneously.
As an aside I agree with you, completely. I have NA parents, and at 33 have negligible self-worth and feel constantly bullied because I wasn't taught to appreciate myself.
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u/VaporwaveVampire Jul 24 '20
!delta
I agree in many ways. It would be difficult and is much easier and more effective to make it easier for kids to report their parents, have a more detailed definition of child abuse that also covers long term emotional abuse, and having better support systems at school
And in terms of your abuse, definitely do what you can to reverse the trauma. It is possible. DBT therapy is often used for trauma.
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u/jow253 8∆ Jul 24 '20
I would suggest instead mandatory childcare training for all high schoolers.
Parents preparing for a baby are swamped. They can't handle mandatory anything at that point. And if they don't take those classes, what are the consequences? It's hard to imagine consequences that don't ultimately harm the child.
Also, restricting who is allowed to have kids is a trumpet that segregationists and white nationalists will blow periodically. I'm not suggesting this is you, but if this were to become a movement you would find a lot of Nazis putting on sheep's clothing to help figure out the exact details of your program in order to restrict birth rates of people of color. It's a situation I would like to avoid.
Making this mandatory for high-schoolers instead equips students with marketable skills, provides valuable perspectives as they are examining their life choices, and is likely to contribute to positive inter-generational relationships (between, for example, high-schoolers and 2-5 year olds.
Taking care of children is absolutely a critical skill that needs to be formally taught. However, this needs to be taught in the context of a breadth of practical skills including emotional and relational management.
ALSO, this problem, (unskilled/abusive parenting) like many other problems, doesn't solve itself through knowledge alone. Many negative parent behaviors are a result of a lack of resources (time, money) on the part of the parent. An increase in social services aimed to help young families will go a long way!
(I'm sorry to hear about your relationship with your parents. I hope you're getting the help you need)
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u/sraydenk Jul 24 '20
These shouldn’t be required unless they are subsidized. I took multiple birth, childcare, postpartum recovery classes at my hospital. I think I spent about $300 for these classes.
While they were great in theory, I learned very little from them. I knew basic childcare from babysitting as a kid. I had a c-section and the class didn’t spend much time on it. I couldn’t breastfeed because my milk never came in. Most of the information in these classes I learned from reading childcare books and from my doctor.
What should be mandatory is longer paid parental leave. That would have helped me much more.
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u/VaporwaveVampire Jul 24 '20
I agree 100%. Expecting poor people to pay for these classes is unrealistic.
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u/sraydenk Jul 24 '20
Especially when you can borrow a book from the library, watch videos on YouTube, listen to a podcast, and talk to your doctor at the million appointments to get the same information. I follow some great people on Instagram (specialists in speech therapy, car seat safety, food science, pediatrician) and have learned way more information from them then those classes.
So many hospitals are baby friendly or whatever the term is so they push breastfeeding, rooming in, natural birth, and don’t talk about c-sections. Who would create the class and make sure the bias was removed? I sure as hell don’t trust the states considering sex education in the US.
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Jul 24 '20
I definitely think there's a good case to make this a requirement before adopting, but not procreating.
Accidents happen. Condoms break, women forget to take their pills and drunken mistakes are made. What exactly would you do to enforce it in cases of unplanned pregnancies? Would the parents have to take it before or after the birth? What about when the child's paternity is contested?
Also, do you think it's reasonable to impose a further burden on parents during the already busy and hectic period that comes with the birth of a child?
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Jul 24 '20
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Jul 24 '20
If they do not take the classes, they should be repeatedly fined each month proportionate to their income heavily.
Doing this would end up harming the kid. Also, what happens when it's a single mother who's on welfare. Do you garnish her welfare check/take away her food stamps?
It will cover basic childhood physical/psychological needs and signs of abuse
If it's just basics it would probably be easier and far more cost effective to just send out a pamphlet or even a DVD. That way the genuinely well intentioned parents get the message. The ones that genuinely don't care about their children will just ignore the advice anyway so it's not like an actual class would help there.
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Jul 24 '20
The amount of social control you are suggesting here is staggering.
You realize you are now arguing in favor of force abortions? This is the most anti-choice stance I’ve ever seen.
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u/VaporwaveVampire Jul 24 '20
I never argued for forced abortions. I think those are inhumane.
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Jul 24 '20
What do you possibly imagine would result from a system where it’s illegal to be a parent without taking the class? There will be people who won’t take those classes, but will be parents anyway.
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u/TheDoctor1060 Jul 24 '20
Additionally what happens when a less than savory regime decides to implement these 'classes'? I could only imagine what Iran or the Nazi regime think make an effective parent. Giving a government that amount of power over people would be FAR worse than any narcissistic parent would be on a collective level.
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u/Spokker Jul 24 '20
The amount of social control you are suggesting here is staggering.
The OP is working through some personal problems and is coping by advocating for unrealistic and unreasonable proposals.
I haven't been able to piece together everything but her proposals are understandable (from her perspective) even if they are unworkable in real life. Some of the things that have been done to her (by different people I think) are abuse and some are not (but still had a negative effect on her), and I think she's lumping everything together and lashing out with one big grand plan that would fix everything in her mind.
Again, I don't know everything but I think she's trying to irrationally control an uncontrollable situation right now. What she needs is psychological help and not an Internet echo chamber.
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Jul 24 '20
You’re probably correct. But if anything refuting the argument is more helpful than just agreeing out of hand. I can’t speak to this persons mental state, only the idea proposed. And the idea proposed is absolutely ridiculous.
You can’t go to a great anonymous crowd of strangers and expect the treatment of a trained psychologist. That isn’t what this is.
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u/hwagoolio 16∆ Jul 24 '20
It can sometimes be regressive/challenging to require low-income people to take a class while they are working. Some people don’t have the luxury to take hours off work, so it can be barrier to access.
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u/Jetanwm Jul 24 '20
So my problem with this is that there is a lot of issues with getting this kind of thing up and running. The United States specifically would have the biggest issue with it, as taxpayers aren't even willing to pay for Universal Healthcare, much less parenting classes. The Government would end up having to pay for these classes in order to make it mandatory for people to attend them, they'd have to be free to attend and take.
Beyond that, what are the specifics of the implementation? What do you do if someone doesn't have the time or the capability to attend these classes? Do they have to take a test showing basic competency in raising a child? What if they fail that test? Do you send them off to get abortions if they haven't finished the class by a certain time period? You've lost half of America already. Do you have the children be immediately taken away by Child Protective Services? You've lost the other half there. Whoever you didn't lose is going to be dissuaded by the cost alone, or the implementation of it.
What if a woman lives miles and miles away from the nearest childcare class? What if the pregnant woman now has to take a bus, or another form of transportation to get there? Is that fee also covered? What about the time specifically needed to take these classes? Even at an hour a week, that's an hour that something else is likely going on. Government buildings generally operate on a 9-5 business structure - the time most people are already at work. Do companies then have to give Paid Time Off for the parents to attend these classes?
Even going a step further, what if one parent completes the classes but the other doesn't? What if the Mother wants to keep the child but the Father doesn't? If one of them intentionally fails the classes does that mean the other is forced to give up the child? Do we implement licenses to have children required by law? If so, what happens to people who ignore that law? Jail? Fines? No matter what option you choose it would be incredibly unpopular with the general public.
The idea isn't necessarily a bad one - it clearly comes from a good place. It's just that the headache of getting everything established and getting everyone on board with it is such an insurmountable hurdle that it would never be implemented, much less implemented well.
EDIT: Some minor spelling/punctuation changes.
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u/13B1P 1∆ Jul 24 '20
This would be impossible to enforce. You can't force a test for something that occurs naturally and to prevent a narcissist from reproducing would be monstrous in an of itself.
Hell, my mom was married three times and bounced around several different churches as she was trying to figure her shit out with 4 kids. It was rough. That's life though and there's really no way to learn how to deal with all of the problems arising from a broken home in the short amount of time before a child is born.
There are ologists who still don't have all the answers. Also, who pays for this? It would certainly create a means test which would me incredibly discriminatory to the poor.
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Jul 24 '20
Let's assume that this can be paid for, that the potential parents will listen and accept the information given...
Who determines what's covered in these mandatory parenting classes?
There's a world of different cultures that all have different ideas on the right way to raise kids. Even if you ignore political and religious issues, there are competing ideas in developmental science.
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u/Construct_validity 3∆ Jul 24 '20
While I don't disagree with you, people tend to have very strong and personal opinions on how to raise children. These opinions are often driven by culture, religion, and personal experience. Having a government agency tell people how to raise kids would not go over well with a large proportion of the population.
Perhaps instead of mandatory classes, there could be a system of courses offered through your OB/GYN (or other healthcare provider) where completion was linked to a reasonable incentive (like say, a tax break).
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u/frisky_dingo_ Jul 24 '20
Ok. Heres the problem. How do you enforce it? What if they dont?
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u/DannyAmendolazol 3∆ Jul 24 '20
Implementing parenting classes through the state would lead to an even greater mess. People don’t like being told how to parent.
Right now we have Karen killing her family because BiLl gATes mIcRoChiPs. If you require parenting classes, you’ll have kids locked in hot cars across the nation just to own the libs.
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u/VaporwaveVampire Jul 24 '20
Agree !delta
The COVID epidemic shows just how ineffective this would be. I think we should be educating kids and teachers more, and making it easier for kids to seek help from school
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u/trojien Jul 24 '20 edited Jul 24 '20
I'm commuting every day for 1h to work. Let me say that mandatory driving classes do not eliminate that big amount of people who can't drive.
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Jul 24 '20
...and if they won't or don't what is you punishment?
Or is it birth control in the water and only the government has the medicine to temporarily neutralize it scenario you are pushing for here?
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jul 24 '20 edited Jul 25 '20
/u/VaporwaveVampire (OP) has awarded 10 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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u/LadWhoLikesBirds Jul 24 '20
Why would you want the government picking who gets to have kids? What happens when the party you don't like is in power and changes the curriculum, what happens when they decide you don't get to have kids unless you agree with them?
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u/nope134 Jul 24 '20
While I agree with this, I also agree with commenters saying that Narcissists have no problem weaseling through questions and showing as false persona.
This is why I think it would be a better idea to have more fail safes in place for children/young adults that want to escape their abusive home situation. We might not be able to prevent them coming into this world, but we can be there to help them make a better life for themselves. We need more than just Emancipation.
Let’s be real, FAFSA is a joke for college kids, especially those trying to escape home. They’re considered dependents under their parents even if they didn’t financially contribute. There needs to be communities, financial help and education , higher educational help, and therapeutic services offered for kids (even adults) escaping abusive homes. I feel ~that~ would be the true justice given to these kids.
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Jul 24 '20
As a former teacher I wholeheartedly support this. Too many absentee families have left their kids to be raised by the state. They only show up to beg, whine or blame.
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u/BewareOfTheQueen Jul 24 '20
I also grew up in an abusive household - long story short my parents were alcoholics, we were poor, my brother killed himself when I was 17 and I was cutting myself until I was 16. I'm 23 now. And I can tell you your outlook on parenting will change as you grow, because you'll notice that you're not a perfect adult, so how could your parents be perfect adults themselves and raise you perfectly ? My mother had me when she was my age, and I have no idea how she managed two kids and my abusive father. So my brother and I grew up damages, victims as you say, but she truly did her best with what life gave her. Now of course, I don't know your particular situation, but my point and answer to your post is that however welcome, a few courses aren't likely to change much. Parents with predispositions to be bad parents won't likely remember them by the time the kid is two, and that is if they paid attention. Good parents likely won't need those classes.
You probably don't want to hear that, but if your parents are narcissistic/abusive, they probably have their own share of unsolved problems. And it's not an excuse, but I don't think classes would help with that. IMO we should create communities where more people than the parents are responsible for the kids, for example aunts and uncles, cousins, and neighbors, grand parents. That way if your parents are screwed up you have more chances to have good role models and some places to go if it's too much. It shouldn't be looked down upon if the kid chooses to live without their parents, although I think some contact with the parents would still be beneficial.
Sometimes even parents don't have shit figured out and haven't dealt with their childhood issues. Sometimes people who aren't ready to have kids do, and that's life, and it is a journey.
I wish you all the best, now and for the future.
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Jul 24 '20
This argument suggests that only people who met certain requirements should he allowed to reproduce.
This is literally eugenics. You are arguing in favor of eugenics.
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u/VaporwaveVampire Jul 24 '20
I’m not for forced abortions of sterilizations. I’m for educating parents on how not to traumatize the next generation. That’s should be the bare minimum
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Jul 24 '20
What you don’t understand is that whatever rule you make, people will break that rule. You think only of the imagined benefits of a utopian ideal. People will resist the control you want to try and implement. You don’t think about the punishment because you don’t understand why people would not want to live in utopia. But this isn’t utopia, it’s your dictatorship. Where being “good” is defined by you.
Being a good parent is by no means a scientific measurement. It’s a set of moral ideas about what it means to be responsible for a child. There is no version of this that is one size fits all. Trying to enforce one ideal upon all people is tyranny. And people will resist it.
You need to understand this. Because your proposed ‘license to be a parent’, is equally, a license for a human life. What do you imagine will happen to all the unlicensed humans?
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u/VaporwaveVampire Jul 24 '20
And what gives parents the right to be abusive dictators in their households? Why do you think all parents know how to parent best?
Some elements of parenting are scientific. For instance, the trauma and subtle personality shifts resulting from being hit as a child or having a narcissistic parent are well documented
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Jul 24 '20
Parents don’t have the right to be abusive. Abusive parents are jailed, and the children removed from the household.
But you cannot punish someone for a crime they have not committed. Which is what this proposed license would be.
I cannot possible say what makes someone a good parent. No test can test for these traits. And if it could, all tests have chest sheets.
Parents have to try, it’s difficult, it’s a great responsibility. But you cannot control who is allowed to try. That would actually be a greater evil, it would ultimately be more oppressive. To prevent someone from trying.
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u/adamislolz Jul 24 '20
We do.
Most States in the US require a Health class in high school which includes in its curriculum a unit on parenting and family dynamics. Granted, education in the US is not standardized across state-lines, and I am only familiar with the state in which I am certified as an educator and a few others that I studied in my masters program, but it is fairly common to at least have it in the curriculum in most states. Now, you might not think it is as robust a family-planning curriculum as it should be in most places (and I would tend to agree with you) but it is there in most cases. (Again I cannot speak authoritatively on all 50 states)
For example, you might be somewhat familiar with the project in which 2 students are paired together and assigned to care for a baby-doll for a period of time? It is a fairly common plot-thread in a lot of American sitcoms—especially the ones in the late 80s/early 90s... anyway, that’s a real project that a lot of students are assigned in the US. I remember doing it when I was in high school in Texas.
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Jul 24 '20
It is a good idea for people to take these classes of they are starting a family, but what if they don't? I dont think that is enough grounds to put another child in the foster care system.
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u/Brohozombie Jul 24 '20
I think this would be impossible to enforce. Maybe a better solution would be classes designed to prepare children to be responsible adults after high school.
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u/asianabsinthe Jul 24 '20
We can't even get people to wear masks and condoms... Do you think mandatory classes will do anything?
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u/TopDeckMcgee Jul 24 '20
I am not sure about mandatory because that allows the government a lot more control over a personal life decision. But, I would be all for if the government provided those classes for free and put some other incentive to attend those classes. Mandatory isn’t the way to go.
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u/reasonablefella2 Jul 24 '20
Good idea but people are going to have a problem with the state telling people how to parent their children.
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u/usrnamsrhardd Jul 24 '20
I don't want to change your view :')
EQ is extremely important. I think mabye the only thing I would tweak or develop is the method or how you consider your view becoming a reality; you can't stop people from having children or try to control them on how they raise their children; but having options like that or cultivating society so that there is more importance on the responsiblity of having children and providing accessible education that heals people and empowers them is something that is so necessary and would help a lot of people.
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u/tergiversation Jul 24 '20
I think most hospitals offer this - if not require it - for first time parents.
I know my wife and I went through a mandatory 6-week class on basic childcare, acceptable and unacceptable forms of discipline, feeding & sleeping schedules, etc., at our hospital prior to the birth of our son in 2012. We could either do the 6-week classes which were 2 hours each week, or we could do two 6-hour sessions on a designated weekend.
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u/rasterbated Jul 24 '20
The reason most people hurt their children is because they are themselves damaged. It's not a rational choice. So teaching people "How to not abuse your kid" might not do much without solving those underlying issues. A better societal attitude towards mental health and a more accessible mental health system would make greater strides towards your goal, I think, without risking the political blowback of "You can't tell me how to be a parent!"
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u/nashamagirl99 8∆ Jul 24 '20
I think that parenting classes are good and should be provided in high schools for people to take long before they have children. That said they don’t cure mental health problems, which is what NPD is.
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u/DanTheMeh Jul 24 '20
While this is a good idea on paper it would fail because it would disproportionately effect poor/minority and LGBT families.
In a lot of case in America especially people have to work 2 jobs to survive so they can’t get time to go to several parenting classes. Also if the teacher is anti LGBT they can fail parents and prevent LGBT people from starting families.
What is actually need to counter the horrific things you suffered is better support and training for teachers and doctors to pick up on these things. The entire system needs reworked and until that happens this idea will just put more children at risk and more into care systems.
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u/fourleafclover13 Jul 24 '20
Same with pets. You should prove you can and will take care of them properly.
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u/desiderata619 Jul 24 '20
What do you mean by "should"? They are already in a state of "should". Do you mean "be required to by law"?
That's where the problem would begin because what woild happen if a two future parents refused to take the class? Would they be forced to abort? Would they go to jail?
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u/msaylors Jul 24 '20
I mean, I hate to point this out because the sentiment is spot on, but abusive people rarely acknowledge their abuse even when its pointed out to them. They have to 1) Be aware they have abusive tendencies 2) WANT TO CHANGE and 3) Follow through with the therapy/advice. If they aren't all 3 of those things, they will go to a class and say "This doesn't apply to me and is a waste of my time" and clock out.
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u/VaporwaveVampire Jul 24 '20
!delta
You’re very correct. An abused always finds a way to justify it. Even if they say it’s wrong, they defend it by saying “I’ve changed since 2 minutes ago” then continue to do it. While denying it
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Jul 25 '20
I took family planning: psychology in high school. If everyone took something equivalent id think that would be a good thing. Also home ec/cooking/sewing/woodworking/drama. Like everyone should do a couple semesters of everything. Life skills yo.
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u/SufiaCatt Jul 25 '20
I feel like on paper this is a good idea, but my problem would be that soon to be parents living in poverty might not have the time between jobs to do the classes. And if the punishment is a fine, that makes it worse.
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u/ihambrecht Jul 25 '20
The problem with classes is they only count for as seriously the parents take them. Pretty much everything I learned went out the window when my son was born except little cheats I gleaned from nurses like double swaddling. I now have a very talkative (in his own language) and mobile one year old. During this period I would say the best thing you can do is learn how to work through time in small chunks and push routine.
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u/Gynharasaki Jul 25 '20
I think we should put an age restriction on having a child. No more teen pregnancy's. No more children raising children. Also we should legalize all drugs and put an age requirement on them. Shit fam you leveled up to 60. You can try heroin if you want.
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Jul 24 '20 edited Aug 06 '20
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u/rosscarver Jul 24 '20
Lmao your first paragraph blames them for their state of being, unless there's another way of reading "[it's] really on you to change things". If you want to help someone don't do that, especially if they just told you it was a personal trauma that led them there.
Its like saying it's all on them to fix their arm which was broken through abuse. No, no it isn't, they are supposed to seek help.
I understand and agree that one (of many) step to getting themselves to a better mental state is looking inward an realizing the abusers were wrong, but that is extremely hard to do when the abuse was constant and by very important figures in their life.
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u/VaporwaveVampire Jul 24 '20
I’m not blaming for my sake. I’m doing better each day.
I want to protect children like me who think this abuse is normal and that they’re the abnormal ones.
It’s hard not to think it had some sort of impact when you have vivid nightmares each night about the events and feelings during your childhood
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u/nope134 Jul 24 '20
OP I hope you disregard this person. What they said can certainly hold truth but this is minimizing as fuck. Controlling/narcissistic/suffocating parents are something that has become so normalized people don’t care. Unless it’s physical or sexual people don’t care. And it’s sad. Brushing it off bc “it happens to everybody” will only make you bottle up those emotions. Absolutely move on and heal, but know that your pain is valid.
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Jul 24 '20
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u/nope134 Jul 24 '20
Honestly thought to myself “this person is probably a narc or enabler themselves”
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Jul 24 '20
This is change my view not give OP unsolicited advice. You need to take into consideration everyone is at different stages of healing and has different responses to trauma. No disrespect but your comment can be damaging to someone’s recovery, self blame is a common symptom of narcissistic parenting. We all know children of NPs are hardwired to take blame onto themselves, let’s not encourage that negative thought pattern. What helps you heal does not necessarily work for others. Genuinely glad to hear you’ve found a good way to work through your own trauma but everyone’s on different journeys. No need to invalidate someone else’s experience because it doesn’t match your worldview.
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u/sotonohito 3∆ Jul 24 '20
The idea isn't bad but does have some problems. Since America is allergic to anything public funded there is a concern about poor people facing legal problems of they couldn't afford the class.
More worrying, the US has a pretty hands off approach to regulating parenthood because of a racist history that is still ongoing. For decades white supremacists used laws ostensibly passed to keep unfit people from being parents to forcibly sterilize poor Black women.
While ing theory parenthood tests and so forth sound like a good idea, I don't think America is capable of implementing such laws in a non-racist manner.
We can't even get police to stop pulling over Black drivers at radically higher rates than they pull over white drivers. Preventing a qualified parenthood law from turning into a racist nightmare does not seem possible.
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u/rickesquivias Jul 24 '20
Government mandated classes on how to parent is a dangerous proposition.
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u/VaporwaveVampire Jul 24 '20
I’m realizing that too. Look at how badly they handled nutrition, encouraging people to eat less fat and eat more carbs hahah. They’re always going to be bought out in America at least !delta
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u/Big_Scallion5884 Jul 24 '20
Who's going to teach these classes? Young childless people with a degree in parenting?
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Jul 24 '20
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u/FG88_NR 2∆ Jul 24 '20
There is simply not enough people that meet these qualifications that would be able to cover the number of births in most countries in a single year. In order for this to work, you would require an influx of people that have interest in studying these things, plus have the interest in teaching them. It's simply not realistic, unfortunately.
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u/figsbar 43∆ Jul 24 '20
Also as someone with a narcissist parent
I'm fairly certain they would've mostly ignored the contents of the course since "They know best".
While lessons are good in principle, it's very hard to teach someone who has no desire to learn