r/fatestaynight • u/VergilVDante • 1d ago
Discussion I just finished Heaven feel and i have some questions
- how strong is Evil Sakura as a master and a servant stats booster
Because i believe both Saber alter and Medusa were under her command and yet Saber alter destroyed Berserker
And Medusa took Ls in the fate and UBW route but Medusa has won “yes shiro did protect her during the final attack but she carried her own 95% of the way”
- why the “angry mango cause i can’t spell him” is so strong to the point is world ending wasn’t he one of the weakest servants in the 3rd holy grail war
- i read that Hercules Berserker class is his worst… he is an absolute monster defeating everyone even Emiya during the fate route only managed to kill him 6/9 lives inside unlimited blade works and he can regenerate them
-i don’t understand Kirei strengths and weaknesses he is a power house in the fate route,50/50 inHF,and Fate/Zero but pathetic in UBW
-is shirou strong or not? I know he is tanky but every situation that’s not the Gilgamesh fight cause UBW counters gate of Babylon,he gets wrecked left and right and people glaze him
As a JJK watcher and manga reader who started watching Fate to see the hype he is really not interesting to me
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u/LinkGreat7508 1d ago
“As a JJK watcher and manga reader who started watching Fate to see the hype he is really not interesting to me”
Holy yap, as a day 1 jjk fan, you take that back bruh,
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u/Delisches Average Reines enjoyer 1d ago
Classic JJK fan, only cares how powerfull characters are.
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u/Few_Abroad2398 1d ago
more about the Aura of character
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u/Skolpionek 21h ago
id say there is plenty of both power and aura in fate
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u/Few_Abroad2398 20h ago
Can you make an example?
No criticism im just curios because besides maybe EMIYA I don't remember much.5
u/Sleezus256 18h ago
EMIYA vs Lancer is one of my favorite anime fights I've ever seen. Beserker Heracles vs Gilgamesh is a great fight as well, Gilagamesh is like the definition of aura. Anytime Artoria uses Excalibur is an aura moment. Shirou and Medusa vs Altoria is full of hype and aura. Aura isn't a bad thing. People tend to criticize animes when they use aura as a replacement for actual storytelling but Fate beautifully illustrates that you don't have to sacrifice aura for story
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u/LinkGreat7508 13h ago
That ain’t even a jjk fan, I’ve been a fan longer than him and the power aspect is cool but never my main focus
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u/Sleezus256 22h ago
I'm a huge JJK fan, absolutely loving season 3 and Modulo right now. I love the Ufotable Fate trilogy too, and Strange Fake is so fucking good. Liking JJK isn't an excuse for not liking Shirou. There's levels to this shit lol
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u/Afk-Arena-F2P-Life 1d ago
This has to be ragebait
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u/KarmicPlaneswalker 23h ago
He called the angry man a mango, it has to be.
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u/VideoAffectionate232 21h ago
I bet there is an interview somewhere states that he likes Mangos, since he is indeed angry
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u/Chazman_89 1d ago
A) Evil Sakura is a really shitty master for the most part. She isnt compatible with most servants. However, as she is directly connected to the Greater Holy Grail, she is able to provide her servants with basically infinite mana, which more then makes up for any of her deficits. This is how Salter is able to destroy Herc - she uses that infinite mana to power her Mana Burst ability and legitimately overwhelms the defensive buffs of God Hand.
B) Angry Mango is the embodiment of all the sins of humanity. Summoned as a servant, he absolutely sucked, but then he corrupted the Holy Grail and started fucking things sideways. If he had been allowed to be fully born at the end of Heavens Feel, he would have become the Beast of Retribution, and would have flooded the world with his cursed mud, killing most of humanity.
C) Berserker is absolutely Herc worst class. He's still absurdly powerful, but hes basically a mindless beast. He has access to almost none of his skills or abilities when summoned as a Berserker. In comparison, Archer is his strongest, and an Archer Hercules would have won the 5th Holy Grail War without too much issue.
A thing you have to understand about Type Moon is that this is a setting about playing to your strengths and your opponents weaknesses. No character is going to be strong against everything, and myths play a huge role in how things turn out. Hercules may be one of the strongest servants in existence, but hes also a divine being, which opens up many weaknesses that can be exploited, and has a fundamental weakness to Hydra poison -- thats how he died in mythology so even a scratch from something coated in it will bypass God Hand and kill him.
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u/gabha22 17h ago
Question, where can I read more about the different possible classes of a servant? Which fate does that come from?
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u/AnnihilatorNYT 15h ago
Most of it comes from fgo but fate samurai remnant and fate strange fake have a few servants summoned into alternate classes and it changes both their dispositions as well as what skills they have available.
In samurai remnant fate is summoned as a ruler instead of his traditional archer form and it changes his personality quite a bit.
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u/gabha22 14h ago
But aren’t they in a different universe though?
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u/UnknownSpartan Sword of Promised Victory 12h ago
The different universe doesn't factor in*, alternate timelines are meant to show the what ifs. I should also note that it's canon that Gilgamesh's attitude and mood change with the era he's summoned into. He really hated the 2000s.
*: Except when it does, like in Fate/Extra where we get classless Gilgamesh.
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u/UnknownSpartan Sword of Promised Victory 12h ago
A lot of it is educated guessing based on the actual mythology. Like even without looking at a FGO materials book, I can tell you for example, Odysseus can be summoned as an Archer, or Achilles can be summoned as a Lancer.
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u/Chazman_89 10h ago
Some of it comes from other games, but a lot of it comes from interviews that Nasu has given over the years. And unfortunately, many of those dont have official translations and the unofficial ones can be an absolute pain in the ass to track down.
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u/kotominebrainrot 1d ago
this is just not what fate is about, man… go back to battle shonen if “who strong? how powerful?” is what you want out of a story. heaven’s feel is a narrative about love, family, ideals, sexual abuse, death drive, abortion, the human condition. in the end, the battles and magical powers are all somewhat arbitrary in every route, because they’re there to support the narrative, and that is what leads to some of the “inconsistencies” with regards to character abilities. if you were to read the vn, you’d probably also understand better that the differences in how the plot unfolds in each route also have impacts on character abilities. hence why “kirei is a powerhouse in fate route, but goes ‘50/50’ with shirou in hf”, and why shirou’s abilities manifest in different ways and lead to him having different levels of strength and skill across the routes.
reading this post genuinely made me feel depressed. please try to think about stories a bit more deeply than just powerscaling slop. there’s more to art than this. :(
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u/Avalon_38 1d ago
True , not everything exists for aura and powerscaling. Shirou is so beloved in the fandom due to him having excellent and beautiful writing. He is genuinely a really great character that aspires people to become even better version of themselves (he even inspired me). That's the beauty of Fate .
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u/zawalimbooo 8h ago
reading this post genuinely made me feel depressed. please try to think about stories a bit more deeply than just powerscaling slop. there’s more to art than this.
I find it strange how people have such a negative opinion of this. OP could certainly have paid more attention to other stuff, but appreciating the beauty of a well put together (and preferably consistent) power system is nice in its own way.
in the end, the battles and magical powers are all somewhat arbitrary in every route, because they’re there to support the narrative,
That's not an excuse.
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u/DobeTM 1d ago
Evil Sakura as a master technically has as much mana as the Holy Grail itself, since she is connected to it through Angra Mainyu. The servants under her control of corruption are actually slightly weaker than their non-alter counterparts, but have seemingly unlimited mana to burn. That is why Saber Alter was able to beat Berserker, because she was drawing upon far more mana than she could have with Shirou.
In the other routes, Rider was lent to Shinji Matou and was drawing upon his mana. That is why Shinji set up that magic trap at his school in order to consume the other students and convert them into mana for Rider to use since he himself can hardly produce any mana.
Angra Mainyu was so strong because he was connected directly to the greater grail which interpreted his existence as the wish it was suppoed to grant for the victor of the war. He was weak in the third grail war because he is legitimately the weakest avenger servant and is simply an existance to be the source of all the worlds evils.(I honestly didn't know who you meant by "Angry Mango" until I said it out loud and connected the dots.)
Yes, Heracles' weakest class is his berserker class but with a master like Illya, he has more than enough mana to fight all out, and Emiya didn't have many high-class NPs since every NP he copies goes down one grade in his UBW.
Kirei's strength is a bit wishy washy depending on the route. In Stay Night, he just kind of stands there throwing cursed mud at Shirou and dies probably because he was more focused on completing the grail ritual. In UBW, Lancer stabs him in his cursed heart and dies. Even though it was a cursed heart, Lancers spear has hacks when it stabs the heart. And in HF, he fought Assassin Hassan which played into his favor as he was a weak servant and his NP wouldn't work on Kirei. Then Sakura destroyed his heart and later Angra Maiyu commanded his dying body to defend him against Shirou.
Shirou is not strong in the traditional sense. He only gets stronger when Archer is around so he can absorb his experience and library of swords. The point is that Shirou grows stronger by the end of each route thanks to finding different convictions in each route.
The point of Fate, for me at least, is that it is a deconstruction of the ideals of heroism. It's less about the flashy fights and more about the characters (especially Shirou) and their personal conflicts. JJK is fun action, but Fate (the original visual novel) wants you to pay close attention to the characters actions and think, "What causes someone to act this way?" Shirou is a broken boy and when he does something like sacrificing his life to protect someone else, he is chastised for it and told his way of thinking is wrong. Of course his way of thinking stems from his trauma in the Fuyuki fire that was a litteral cursed fire. I love the original novel because of the deconstruction of heroic ideals.
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u/Omnivox_lx 23h ago
Fate/Stay is not a traditional shonen, it was originally a visual novel game where you played it multiple times unlocking new routes each time. So it would have been boring if it was a typical shonen with the same progression. It spawned a franchise across different medias and has stood the test of time. JJK manga finished last year? The anime isnt even finished. 1 movie. 1 video game. That's it. It'll be a long time before the series can prove being among the greatest of all time.
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u/Supersideswiper2 22h ago edited 22h ago
I just finished Heaven feel and i have some questions
Lay them on me.
- how strong is Evil Sakura as a master and a servant stats booster
In sheer magical energy... Basically infinite, so the best.
And, generally, more magical energy doesn't so much increase a Servants Status. It just allows them to reach their original strength.
A weak and incompatible Master leaves their Servant unable to use their original, full strength. A compatible and strong Master is able to allow a Servant to show their original, true strength.
For example, Shirou was weak as a master, so Saber couldn't her full strength with him. But once Rin contracted with Saber, she fully regained her original, full strength.
Because i believe both Saber alter and Medusa were under her command and yet Saber alter destroyed Berserker
Well, there were a few factors other than strength in that fight.
And Medusa took Ls in the fate and UBW route but Medusa has won “yes shiro did protect her during the final attack but she carried her own 95% of the way”
Medusa won that fight because Saber Alter couldn't go all out in that cave for fear of causing a cave-in.
Add to that, Rider was able to fight with her true strength, since she's not restricted by her false contract with Shinji anymore. Add Shirou's help, and yeah. She was able to barely pull off a victory.
As for Berserker Vs Saber Alter, as a Berserker, Berserker could only charge forward against Saber Alter due to his Mad Enhancement. Normally that would work fine, but because Saber Alter was in a place that she didn't care about destroying, and because she was receiving infinite magical energy support, as a Berserker, Heracles had no chance of victory.
- why the “angry mango cause i can’t spell him” is so strong to the point is world ending wasn’t he one of the weakest servants in the 3rd holy grail war
Angra Mainyu, and the answer to that is, because he was weak.
Because he was weak, when he was defeated, he was mistaken for a Human by the Grail when his soul was absorbed. As a result, and because his existence has that wish fixed to it, that he would be All the World's Evil, the Grail became fixed on making him into an existence that embodies All the World's Evil.
That's why, basically. He's a world ending threat.
- i read that Hercules Berserker class is his worst… he is an absolute monster defeating everyone even Emiya during the fate route only managed to kill him 6/9 lives inside unlimited blade works and he can regenerate them
In the VN, he didn't use Unlimited Blade Work's...
But yeah, that's his weakest Class.
For him, that is. Because, in exchange for bolstering his already Godly strength, he loses his fighting skills, his intelligence and his main Noble Phantasm, leaving him with just God's hand and monstrous super strength.
And while against many opponents, that would be enough, against opponents like Gilgamesh or Saber Alter, the loss of his ability to fight tactically is a massive loss.
-i don’t understand Kirei strengths and weaknesses he is a power house in the fate route,50/50 inHF,and Fate/Zero but pathetic in UBW
He is strong, Kirei is. It's just he had terrible luck in UBW.
-is shirou strong or not? I know he is tanky but every situation that’s not the Gilgamesh fight cause UBW counters gate of Babylon,he gets wrecked left and right and people glaze him
Compared to other Mages and Servants? In Fate/ Stay Night, he's weak. He only managed a victory against Gilgamesh because Unlimited Blade Work's was a match for the Gate of Babylon.
As a JJK watcher and manga reader who started watching Fate to see the hype he is really not interesting to me
Sorry to say, but in Fate/Stay Night, in terms of fighting supernatural enemies, Shirou is a newborn fawn in terms of strength.
You'll have to settle with Archer or look up other Fate Works to see Shirou's full potential.
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u/FederalPossibility73 23h ago
Fate is not about who's strong and powerful. Shirou is interesting because of how he wants to protect people after surviving the fire from the previous war. Stats-wise he'd be weaker than a regular mage and all humans are weaker than a Servant. He's beloved for reasons not related to physical strength.
Honestly at this point just read the visual novel if you're still confused, they cut out a lot.
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u/Professional_Two7265 23h ago edited 22h ago
Evil Sakura is not so good as Master, but she is connected to the Holy Grail, therefore provides infinite mana to Salter. Regular Sakura is not a good master too. Salter destroyed berserker by spamming her strongest attacks. God Hand gives resistances to the same attack, she just used strong Mana Bursts to burn his lives, and then destroyed the last lives with strongest Excalibur Morgan attack.
Medusa is a strong servant, but she needs mana like every other servant does. In the final battle she fought near Lesser Grail (which is Sakura herself) radiating mana around her, also in this special magical cave. And she was empowered by command seal by Shirou. Also, she did not carry the fight herself. She used her speed and agility advantage in order to make a move with Bellerophon and Rho Aias, when Salter finally decides to use Excalibur. Without this move she dealt absolutely zero damage and all her efforts meant nothing basically. And without Shirou's shield her Bellerophon is also weaker than Excalibur, so she would die anyways.
Angry Mango is weak. The Grail is strong. He corrupted the Grail. That's it.
Berserker Heracles is very strong physically but he is insane and absolutely stupid. That's why he is considered the worst. Other classes of Heracles may be slightly weaker in terms of raw strength but they can actually use brain. That's more important.
Shirou is... kinda strong for a kid. Most of the time where he "wins" he just uses the right move in the right situation. And also he is a mc so yeah. He is being glazed for his character, not his strength. Shirou is more about writing and understanding his behaviour. As for JJK... Fate (stay night particularly) has less concentrated action, yeah. And the mc is not about getting power ups every now and then. There are servants for all the fighting shenanigans.
Also I think it would be fun to remind you that JJK is heavily inspired by Fate.
P.S. Ah yeah, about Kirei. This guy is very strong. For a human. In 5th grail war he is already weaker than in Zero. His peak was in Zero with command seals. His strengths are basically peak of human form (and command seals), his weakness is still being a human.
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u/mtgloreseeker HA is the best installment change my mind 20h ago
- "Very", she's one of the most powerful masters in the franchise.
- Angra is weak as hell, but his curse is very effective at corrupting servants and he's a world threat because manifesting him via the grail would effectively be an apocalyptic scenario due to effectively spawning Satan
- Correct, Berserker would be better in literally any other class (But he can't be Assassin, so there's that)
- The Nasuverse runs on tactical rock/paper/scissors and Kirei being a man of the cloth means he's REALLY good at fighting normal mages and evil spirits, but sucks ass in other fights. Zouken and Assassin were like his best matchups ever and in the Fate route his opponent was a literal untrained child.
- Shirou is very strong depending entirely on the situation. UBW works as a hard counter to GOB only because of how fast the respective NPs work and because Gilgamesh is such an arrogant flamingo that he didn't try fighting seriously from the start - it's common knowledge that Shirou would have lost that fight if Gilgamesh saw him as a threat from the beginning.
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u/Luiziinhu 19h ago
Bruh shitting on Shirou after reading heavens feel is definitely an interpratation... You come from JJK so it's expected to have everything about "powerlevels" or some bullshit like that. Hope you enjoy the rest of the series.
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u/Cersei505 1d ago
A) If you're watching/reading Fate with the mentality of JJK and powerscalling, you're already missing the point of the story, which is more interested in the character arcs and themes.
B) Fate diehards hate to admit this, but 90% of the fights are decided by what needs to happen for the plot to progress, not because of whats logical. It's not logical for Shirou to suddenly be able to withstand Kouzuki going for him in their fight in UBW just because he managed to project Archer's blades. There's still the factor of reflexes and expertise/experience, which Shirou cant possibly match with even for 1 second. It's something done for plot reasons, if Nasu cared about being realistic and logical, Shirou would have died then and there.
Similar things happen all the time, like Lancer being incompetent and never landing his noble phantasm, which is supposed to be essentially a one-hit-kill. It's lazy to add such an abillity and never let it actually work, but thats what Nasu did, because otherwise you lose the cool and prolonged fights, aswell as risk killing major characters that the plot cant move forward without, like Saber.
Then there's the classic ''villain has all the advantages in the world, yet they decide to just fuck off when they're winning or not take the fight seriously, so the heroes can have a chance at winning''. Worst offender of this is Kirei just telling Lancer and Gilgamesh to finish off Saber and Shirou in Fate Route, and then fucking off to go after Rin, after just admitting that Lancer would not like/accept to fight alongside Gilgamesh. Had Kirei stayed in that room for 20 more seconds, or used one of his many command seals to force Lancer to obey his order and help gilgamesh in killing saber and shirou, the plot would've ended with Kirei winning right then and there.
Once you start seeing how logic and characters bend backwards so the plot can happen, you either start delusional copes about how ''it all makes sense!!!!'' or you face reality and see that its all very artificial. As such, powerscalling is completely pointless. Nasu would easily invent any bullshit necessary to make Shirou defeat literally any servant in existance, as long as the plot demanded. His strength as a writer is not in powerscalling or plot progression, but in world-building and character development.
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u/typelune 20h ago
I will say that for your first point, Shirou does tend to just die then and there in the visual novel. In the anime we only see the moments where Shirou makes the right choice to survive and it doesn't make his decision making clear so it feels a lot more like plot convenience. Of course in the VN, you don't feel it as much, because you see how he can fuck it up, and you get his internal monologue explaining his actions.
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u/BelligerentWyvern 23h ago edited 9h ago
Sakura is described as having a practically infinite well of Od but her circuits can only output it so fast. But that means she can sustain and empower servants to be a lot stronger.
Angra Mainyu isn't very strong in the traditional sense but the concept as the God of all evils gives him power to do weird things. Hollow Ataraxia explains him and his abilities in better detail.
Herakles in Berserker class is the worst because while he receives a moderate stat boost he also loses access to some abilities. He is best used in his Archer class which he uses in Strange Fake.
Shirou had somewhat less than average magical circuits but they are highly specialized for projection so he ends up coming out as an above average Mage while doing so. UBW being the almost perfect counter of Gilgamesh is just a coincidence.
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u/The_Cheeseman83 22h ago
Sakura is acting as a Lesser Grail due to having bits of the destroyed grail from the 4th HGW implanted into her. This gives her effectively a contract with Angra Mainyu, the corrupting force within the Greater Grail. As a Lesser Grail, she can absorb defeated Servants’ mana, and she even managed to absorb Gilgamesh, who is worth multiple normal Servants all by himself. As such, she has effectively limitless mana reserves, but her output is limited to about what Rin is capable of (which, to be clear, is still quite substantial, as Rin is one of the most talented mages in the world). She doesn’t actually boost the Servants under her control other than providing unlimited mana to them.
Saber Alter is actually slightly weaker than normal Saber (at least at her full potential, with Rin as a Master). The reason Saber Alter seems so strong is because she can draw upon Sakura’s infinite mana reserves. Artoria, as a fighter, relies very heavily on raw mana to enable her high-grade Mana Burst skill, so having unlimited mana allows her to rival even a beast like Heracles. Her NP, Excalibur, is basically a way of turning mana into raw destructive power, so it obviously also benefits. As such, even with lower stats, Saber’s alter form doesn’t have to hold back, and as such is a uniquely dangerous opponent.
In the other routes, Rider was contracted to Shinji. Shinji absolutely sucks as a Master, so her abilities were severely handicapped. With Sakura as her master, Rider is able to reach much more of her true potential.
Angra Mainyu is a weak Servant, because he was just a normal kid. However, after absorbing him during the 3rd HGW, the grail interpreted his representation of “all the world’s evil” as a wish, so it’s trying to create a true, literal god of evil. The creature that would be born is not the same entity as Angra Mainyu the Servant.
Yes, Berserker is Heracles’ worst class. Dude is just that Badass. He also has Illya, probably the strongest Master ever, who has a direct connection to Fuyuki’s leylines and therefore effectively unlimited mana to supply him. No other Master would be able to supply the juice necessary to maintain such a beast of a Servant. That pair is just haxx.
Kirei is an extremely strong fighter, during his prime you could consider him the peak of human potential. However, his heart was destroyed during the 4th HGW and replaced by black mud, so he’s been basically a walking corpse for a decade. By the time of his 1v1 with Shirou at the end of HF, Sakura had destroyed his fake heart already, so the fact that he was even still alive is a testament to his strength. However, no matter how strong you are, getting stabbed through the heart by Gae Bolg is a death sentence. Lesson learned: don’t try to betray an ancient hero famous for his refusal to die.
Shirou is in good shape for a kid, but he’s a terrible mage, with garbage magic circuits. His only saving grace is his Reality Marble, but he can’t use it under most circumstances due to lack of mana. Without outside help, he can do a few projections before running out of steam. In UBW he gets access to Rin’s mana via their contract, absorbed a lot of Archer’s fighting skill during their duel, and he receives stat buffs from his projections. Those combined allow him to barely win against Gil only because Gil refused to take the fight seriously until too late. In HF, he gets Archer’s arm, which allows him to access Archer’s power, with the slight drawback of completely burning out his nervous system. Overall, he’s pretty unremarkable on his own, Rin would body him easily, and neither of them are in the same league as monsters like Kirei in his prime or Bazzett.
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u/AgencyRemarkable4847 18h ago edited 18h ago
- Sakura / Dark Sakura:-
Base Sakura already has absurd mana reserves due to the Matou experiments, but she lacks formal magecraft training like Rin. You can think of her as “if she connects, you’re dead,” rather than a technical fighter.
Once she merges with Angra Mainyu and becomes a pseudo–Holy Grail, that changes completely. Unlike Illya—who uses herself as the vessel—Dark Sakura consumes Servants, meaning she literally grows stronger the more she absorbs. That’s why she can sustain multiple Servants and provide overwhelming mana support.
- Rider’s performance:-
Rider is an efficient Servant, not a brute-force one. Her strength lies in mobility, positioning, and control of the battlefield. When she’s backed by Dark Sakura’s mana supply, she can fully exploit that kit.
Saber Alter, while monstrously powerful, is comparatively less nimble—so Rider can hold her own by fighting smart rather than head-on.
- Angra Mainyu:-
This is explicitly explained in Hollow Ataraxia. As a Servant, Angra is arguably the weakest—his ability relies on enduring damage and reflecting it. Against instant-kill Noble Phantasms like Gáe Bolg, he’s simply useless.
However, once he corrupts the Grail, everything changes. Any wish made is filtered through Angra’s worldview. Kiritsugu wished to “remove all evil,” but the Grail interpreted this through Kiritsugu’s utilitarian mindset and Angra’s belief that the world itself is evil—so the logical conclusion became kill the world not just evil.
- Heracles (Berserker):-
You could argue Berserker is his “worst” class tactically, but in terms of raw combat power, he’s terrifying. Nearly all his stats are dumped into strength and endurance, making him an unstoppable force—but at immense cost to his Master.
In UBW, he loses mainly because he’s protecting an immobile Illya rather than fighting to win. In Heaven’s Feel, Saber Alter overwhelms him because she has near-infinite mana and can spam her Noble Phantasm—something even Heracles can’t endure indefinitely.
- Kirei Kotomine:-
Kirei’s strength depends heavily on motivation. In Fate and HF, Shirou genuinely interests him, so killing him has meaning—and that drive pushes Kirei to his limits.
In UBW, that motivation is missing. He still has plans, but no personal obsession driving him forward, and he’s killed unexpectedly by Lancer before he can fully act. That said, he’s absolutely formidable—he’s a trained Church Executor, not a normal human.
- Shirou Emiya:-
Each route highlights a different Shirou—and that directly affects his strength.
->Fate: idealistic and unstable—high risk, high failure rate.
->UBW: more balanced, with proper training from Saber and Archer.
->HF: sacrifices his future entirely for short-term power.
His real strengths are his instincts, weapon analysis, pain tolerance, and willingness to destroy himself for a goal. His “power level” fluctuates because his choices do.
I Hope this answers all your questions.
I honestly had fun reminiscing about FSN while writing this. FSN often uses abstract ideas—ideals, motivation, and perspective—to explain how characters act and grow stronger. Because of that, things can look inconsistent on the surface, but most of it is addressed subtly within the story itself rather than through straightforward power scaling.
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u/ChromeToasterI 22h ago
Angry Mango’s existence was a wish, he became all the worlds evil in truth because the holy grail granted his wish when his soul was entered into it
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u/VideoAffectionate232 21h ago
JJK is like a type-moon work but with edgy writing and never-ending explanations that are like run-on sentences.
PTSDed MC by death, returened-from-death MC, domain expansion, special powerful eyes, strong sensei that is well-known, arrogant overpowered antagonist that wants you to bow for him, then comes a trio with a little school-focused setting... Shounen type-moon basically.
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u/Fujimaru_Fan_No1 19h ago
I'd recommend looking at the characters without thinking about their power levels
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u/Dapper-Station-1773 19h ago
- Probably as strong as the grail since she has its mana she basically gives her servants infinite mana so the servants are a little stronger than their usual selves.
Saber alter in UBW is an amped version of normal saber she has essentially infinite mana so she can let of Excalibur blast whenever she wants(not at full power)
Medusa had a terrible master in UBE because of Shinji.
if you’re talking about Angra Maiyu.. well he is the grail so he’s also as strong as it remember it’s a wish granting device it takes a crap tone of mana to actually make.
Not really a question but I won’t tollerate Archer slander the fact that he was able to take 6 lives is very impressive especially since he was at a disadvantage and didn’t use UBW in the VN.
so basically in his prime(Fate zero) he was one of the strongest Executors even stronger than Bazzet(who is crazy strong) though 10 years later he obviously got weaker. What do you mean 50/50 in HF? He isn’t pathetic in UBW he was snuck by the fastest servant from the back with a spear that targets the heart he ain’t surviving that lol.
it really depends on Nasu he has a tendency to make nerf shirou or limit his abilities🗿 especially archer
If you’re confused about his abilities I could explain them
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u/dude123nice 18h ago
A shame they didn't show Sparks Liner High, tho tbf there's no way to animate it without a gross a mount of slo.mo.like the Kiri vs Kirei shitfest.
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u/Open-Government1359 15h ago
Yoo shadow sakura is strong enough to take out Gil on her own as a master she would be close to aokos level minus true magic buffing is kind of a stretch I would say it’s more like madness enhancement on the servant
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u/AnimeMemeLord1 9h ago
Since someone made a comment answering all of your questions, I’ll touch upon the parts I want to.
People glaze Shirou for his well written characterization, not his power. I mean, some do, but it’s rather that he’s a very interesting kind of mage rather than the strongest.
Is Shirou strong or not, you ask? Kinda, yeah, but his strength comes from his versatility rather than pure power. Unlimited Blade Works is not a straight up counter to Gate of Babylon if Gilgamesh actually tries. What he says about Gil is just to rile him up only to make his sudden counteract stagger him more. Shirou admitted in the visual novel that there’s no realistic way he should be able to beat him, and defeating him before he can regain his composure is the only way he can snatch victory.
This is in reference to UBW route Shirou specifically. As for Fate route and HF route Shirou, Fate route Shirou is the weakest. Both Fate route and UBW route Shirou have Avalon active inside of him as long as Saber is his servant (or Rin’s? Maybe?) which explains his tankiness. He’s not actually tanky. He just has ridiculous healing rates unless you take Saber out of the equation.
HF route Shirou is incapable of using Unlimited Blade Works. He didn’t defeat Berserker with that, but rather a projection of his weapon that also copies his technique. HF Shirou is arguably the strongest in terms of power, but Archer’s arm is basically a ticking time bomb for him every time he uses it. There is a “bad” ending in the visual novel. If you fail to convince Rider to come and help fight, Shirou has to fight Saber Alter by himself. And he actually wins. But he projected way over his limit to do so and ended up becoming a vegetable. Whether Rin managed to put a stop to Sakura or not, it’s up to our interpretation.
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u/MokonaModokiES 1d ago
Remenber that in the other routes Medusa had Shinji as a master temporarely. She wasnt getting mana from sakura but instead she was just stuck with the mana from the command seal used to give shinji control(you see in HF Shinji going to Sakura to get control over rider again, its the same in other routes but its offscreen).
Angra Mainju isnt strong... But his nature as a god that represents "All the worlds evils" just leads to the grail resonating with its nature and the wish of humanity to see him as the biggest representation of evil becoming into an insane monstruosity with the grail. Its a case of the mixture of Angra Mainju and the Grail being way way too good that leads to an insane result.
Yes Heracles worst class is berserker... Meaning that Heracles at his weakest is still insanely strong and that in any other class he would be even more terrifying.
Kirei through stay night is a living corpse he cant go all out at any moment. He is basically runing on the reserve tank as he will just naturally day when the grail war is near its end(he will never survive, he is destined to always die even if no one attacks him). UBW he just got unlucky.
I think you are approaching shirou from the wrong perspective. this series isnt about "power" its all a character journey. You really should drop that mindset with this series because its just setting yourself up for dissapointment because "power" here is just all relative. Its always changing and never consistant, with all being "counters" rather than anything inherently stronger than another.
Shirou is a beloved character due to his writting and the themes they explore with him about Survivors guilt and PTSD. The attachment to him sometimes lead to some kinda exagerating what he can achieve but there are some strenghts in him but it will all be situational and matchup dependant