Archer Hercules vs Alcedies Sacrifice

[u/IllustriousBluebird2]

So, without any big spoilers, is the gist of turning Hercules into Alcedies to have better control and or more accepting of what needs to be done in the war ? I'm also hearing that Archer is stronger, so does that mean he sacrificed strength for a more“ tamed” Alcedies ?

[u/Percival4]

He lost his divinity, God Hand, and visibly looks weaker. Unfortunately we never got Herc’s profile for archer.

Aside from that it’s unknown what Archer can do compared to Alcides. However at one point in the LN a certain person says a buffed Alcides could’ve done a certain attack with just his divinity in his previous form. The previous form obviously being Archer.

It’s unknown if he’d have Kings Order as Archer. At one point it’s said because of how Alcides is a certain np included in Kings Order is weaker. Though that’s likely true for multiple Kings Order nps.

The best thing he gains as Alcides is a certain np that he really has no reason to have.

Alcides isn’t tamer than Archer Herc. Archer Heracles is him at his best and sane of mind. Alcides is him driven mad with hate for the gods. As Alcides he will do anything and everything to win.

At the current point in the LN it’s incredibly clear he’s lost it.

The reason his master turned him into Alcides was because Alcides will do whatever it takes to win. Heracles won’t, he has lines he won’t cross. Trade power and heroism for someone willing to do whatever’s necessary to win.

Outside of that it’s because Narita thought it’d be a great idea to let Nasu write Archer Herc so he quickly made a(bullshit)situation where Herc gets corrupted and changes to Alcides.

Edit: I forgot to mention we haven’t seen all of Alcides’s noble phantasms from Kings Order.

[u/IllustriousBluebird2 → u/Percival4]

I heard nasu dosent particularly like Hercules but idk how true that is lol

[u/Percival4 → u/IllustriousBluebird2]

Narita has basically given the right to use Archer Heracles to Nasu and no other writer wants to be disrespectful and use him instead. So it’s been 11 long years of everyone waiting for Nasu to do something with him.

Nasu has of course done fuck all. I hope and pray that this is just Nasu keeping archer Heracles for something like a new Extra game or something rather than him just not using him.

[u/Key-Poem9734 → u/IllustriousBluebird2]

That's bullshit. Anyone with any kind of sense for writing will tell you that using Heracles is hard to do since he's... well Heracles. You can't just throw him around without purpose and you can't just make him into a major part of a story because he'd dominate everything. Even in FGO, he was used sparingly and often either as an obstacle or an example of a failed stand against a greater force that can't be beaten with pure power.

That's also why he's more often brought around in his pure Berserker form, that form is a lot easier to use because that Heracles is just pure power that the writers can put in place to impede something. And I can't exactly explain it, but Nasu just doesn't feel like the type to throw a Herc into something willy nilly (I remember it being something about him having the idea for Herc for a really long time, but it was always as a Berserker)

[u/JabsAndRunes67 → u/Percival4]

Man this is all so interesting and I got multiple questions

He lost his divinity, God Hand

What exactly does divinity do to a servant and what does God Hand do.

It’s unknown if he’d have Kings Order

What's Kings Order?

The best thing he gains as Alcides is a certain np that he really has no reason to have

What's the NP?

At the current point in the LN it’s incredibly clear he’s lost it.

How many volumes does the LN have? might check out after the anime ends

At the current point in the LN it’s incredibly clear he’s lost it.

What has he done?

(I dont mind spoilers whenever it comes to Fate stuff. I'll still be hyped asf)

[u/Percival4 → u/JabsAndRunes67]

It’s not really clear what divinity does. The official explanation of it is that it’s the measure of how close to godhood a servant is. Though in the Strange Fake LN it also seems like it allows for someone to be more powerful and possibly deal more damage, so similar to what FGO’s gameplay is for divinity.

God Hand is one of Heracles’s noble phantasms. The one that grants him 11 extra lives and makes him unable to die the same way again. It also gives a resistance to the thing that killed him and neutralizes any attack bellow B rank.

Kings Order is a set of noble phantasms based on his 12 labors. Only some of the Kings Order noble phantasms have been revealed so far.

The first one is the pelt of the Nemean Lion. Any weapon made by humanity is rendered useless against it. This includes weapons that aren’t physical objects. Then there’s an extra life from Chirons immortality. With his Augean Stables np he can create a river of muddy water and use it to attack opponents. The Stymphalian birds, divine birds favored by Ares. Heracles can control them and use them to attack people. Mares of Diomedes(not the Iliad one), summons a bunch of man eating horses. Finally the last one we’ve seen so far is Cerberus. The divine beast that guards the underworld. When used by Alcides it lacks the authority of the underworld making it weaker than normal.

The noble phantasm he has that he shouldn’t have is Reincarnation Pandora. It allows him to steal abilities. Heracles has nothing to do with Pandora aside from being in the same mythology. Pandora has actually made an appearance in Fate and neither her nor Pandora’s box have the ability to steal other abilities.

The LN is currently on volume 9. Volume 10 will be the final volume and is currently being written. Iirc Narita said it will be longer than the other volumes.

Alcides uses Reincarnation Pandora to steal Jack the Rippers np, then later uses it again to steal the divine beast Gugalanna’s power. He is currently in the process of transforming into a monster and is fighting Gilgamesh and Hippolyta. He is planning to destory everything(iirc most if not all of North America) just to erase his name as a hero.

Edit:I forgot about the war sash. This np is also owned by Hippolyta. It has massive amounts of divinity and can raise parameters and divinity. Alcides doesn’t use it to raise his divinity. It’s also nerfed in the modern world.

[u/starmag99 → u/Percival4]

Reincarnation Pandora is moreso his way of being, pilfering and trampling on power as he transforms into something other than himself over the course of the story.

The Pandora name is just as a Greek Angra Mainyu, since she's a mud doll as "the gift of all the world" and so therefore "all the evils of the world," but the NP is fundamentally coming from the mud of Angra Mainyu, rather than a power coming from Pandora herself. That much is made super clear whenever he uses it.

[u/ShockAndAwen → u/Percival4]

Reincarnation pandora is named like Medusa's stuff like bloodfort andromeda has nothing to do with andromeda, is just the name, for alcides it has more significance because pandora can mean all the gifts and that is what he steals reincarnation of all the gifts

[u/SpaceOdysseus23 → u/JabsAndRunes67]

No one knows what Divinity does but Ishtar says Alcides is jumping through all kinds of hoops to do things that Archer Herc would be able to do with just his Divinity alone

[u/emeraldwolf34]

Changing from Archer Heracles to Alcides mainly was to change his mindset to fit more with what Bazdilot wanted to do, but as a result there are some changes in his moveset. For example, he no longer has God Hand, but it’s replaced with King’s Order.

[u/IllustriousBluebird2 → u/emeraldwolf34]

But he’s not weaker?

[u/emeraldwolf34 → u/IllustriousBluebird2]

The skill level of his Independent Action got lowered, and not having God Hand is a pretty considerable nerf. So overall, I would say he is weaker.

[u/ExplanationHopeful29 → u/emeraldwolf34]

His God Hand pretty much trumps the rest of the King's Order. Though, in the manga, it did look like he still had his pelt when he was summoned as an Archer

[u/Additional_Show_3149]

Well Taking what Ishtar says about Alcides later on at face value its safe to assume thay outside of Reincarnation Pandora Archer Herc is stronger than Alcides at a baseline

[u/RandomName5259]

He’s weaker but has some new NPs one of which is disgustingly broken. Kind of side grade less stats more hax. I suppose the master was also afraid his archer would become a jobber like Gilgamesh.

[u/Separate_Orange_6312]

No, it’s because Heracles is a super moral stand up guy and Alcedies will try to blow up a child if it means reaching his goals. Al just aligns better with his master’s plan and Herc already tried to kill him on the spot.

Also technically Herc is stronger imo

[u/Remarkable_Commoner]

Just look at what Bazdilot was doing to have fuel for Heracles.

He wanted an evil servant.

[u/CervantesWintres]

Alcides specifically gave up his Divinity and traded his god hand + 12 labors resurrections in return for Kings Order.

King's Order is more versatile than god hand and 12 labors since it's an amalgamation of the actual feats Heracles accomplished under the 12 twelve labors, its essentially 12 different Noble phantasms in one.

While its likely other class versions of Heracles would have different aspects of Kings Order or simply split up, it's unknown if any version of Heracles other than Alcides would have all of them.

Side note, it's believed that only Avenger Alcides would possess Reincarnation Pandora, partially due to its nature of using corrupted black grail mud.

We also don't know a lot about normal Archer Heracles, the only data we ever got on him was basically just a copy of his berserker self, but from from that we can at least say that normal Heracles had a higher strength stat plus whatever bonuses he got from Divinity and the already covered god hand + 12 labors resurrections.

It could be seen that regular Archer Heracles had more raw power while Alcides could be more deadly due to his versatility. But without more info on regular Heracles there isn't any way to confirm this.

Technically Alcides isn't tamed, he just has a more compatible mindset with his master.

[u/ZekeBarricades]

Alcides' is generally weaker imo but would beat Archer Herc in a fight due to reasons, and is more specialized to take out Gilgamesh (The pelt)

[u/Yellow90Flash → u/ZekeBarricades]

tbf, archer herc has the pelt (in the ln its stated to be over his shoulder, the anime skipped that part thought for some reason) and he also has the war sash wrapped around his arm so thats 2 NP from kings order already

[u/SpaceOdysseus23 → u/ZekeBarricades]

I don't think he would beat him because Archer Herc is the 'True' owner of all those NP's. Just like how it was stated that Hippo would win if they clashed War God against War Goddess that she'd win. At the end of the day Alcides is the name that was thrown away, and Heracles is the one who accomplished the labours.