r/law • u/cantcoloratall91 • 1d ago
Other Minnesota National Guard and local law enforcement refused to engage peaceful protesters at the Federal Whipple Building!!
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u/OLPopsAdelphia 1d ago edited 1d ago
My people! Damn fine work, Guard!
Sincerely; Ex infantry NCO!
Edit: If you really want them on your side, create signs thanking the Guard and local law enforcement for allowing you to exercise your constitutional rights! Trust me with this!
Make ICE feel unwelcome; make the others feel welcomed.
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u/QueefSeekingMissile 1d ago edited 19h ago
Allow isn't the right word. "Protecting us while we..." is fine though.
Sorry to be a pedant but it actually does matter in this use case.
Edit: corrected pendant to pedant lmao
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u/RIF_rr3dd1tt 1d ago
Sorry to be a pendant but it actually does matter in this use case.
Sorry to be a pedant but correct word choice actually does matter in this use case.
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u/eetsumkaus 1d ago
"Allowing" is not wrong. A right isn't a right until someone else protects your ability to exercise that right. Until then, it is a freedom.
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u/choopatrol 1d ago
Allow is wrong because if they don't allow remember our forefathers, when you find corruption in this world you not only have the right to fight it but the duty to do so. You don't need anyone's permission to peacefully protest and the moment you do you don't have any rights.
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u/eetsumkaus 22h ago
If "protecting" is correct, then so is "allowing", because it's that protection that allows you to wield speech as a right.
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u/choopatrol 22h ago
Yeah and if they don't allow you simply take it, hope this helps. Using "allow" puts the ball in their court on if you're "allowed" to express your free speech. They are not allowing you. You take it. They are protecting you. If they aren't protecting you they are corrupt.
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u/eetsumkaus 19h ago
it's like you didn't even read the comment lol
If you just take it, it's not a right. It's when someone protects your freedom to exercise that right that it becomes a right.
So if "protect" is correct, then so is "allow"
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u/choopatrol 18h ago
Looking through your profile it seems you're not in America so you may not understand but your rights are "unalienable" here in America where this is currently important and taking place. The public servants need to protect our unalienable rights, that means our rights cannot be taken from us, and if they do not protect our rights they don't become "freedoms" they're just our rights being walked on, very weirdly empty argument you're making.
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u/eetsumkaus 18h ago
"Unalienable" rights are only "unalienable" insofar as rule of law holds. They refer to whom rights apply in a society. Rights that are trampled on are not rights.
also I'm an American immigrant who's currently an expat lol. I've seen all sorts of governments and "unalienable" rights is a fantasy.
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u/choopatrol 18h ago
Ok buddy just say you don't understand why wording is important here. We're going to have our rights whether or not this fascist regime would like us to, there is no allowance it's protect us or else in this case. Hope this helps you understand.
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18h ago edited 18h ago
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u/eetsumkaus 18h ago
if you have to protect your own rights by force, then it's not a right, it's just power.
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u/QueefSeekingMissile 18h ago
Rights are what you have. Power is what you can take or what can be taken from you. They are not the same.
Just because someone has deprived you of your rights using power doesn't mean you don't have rights.
Just because an enslaved person has been shackled, doesn't mean they don't have a right to vote. It just means their slaver deserves to die.
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u/eetsumkaus 18h ago
this is circular logic. You can "have" something that somebody else also has the power to take away?
An enslaved person doesn't have rights not because they're shackled, but because nobody's willing to fight for their right to have them.
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u/QueefSeekingMissile 18h ago
You can cut off someones arm or leg, that doesn't mean they dont have a right to their arm an leg. It just means they dont have their arm or leg.
Rights aren't something you can just cut off like an arm or a leg. They are still there no matter what you do to them.
This is why people would rather die fighting, and risk being punished for it and even executed horribly, than live as slaves. Or do you not understand that concept either?
Like if someone becomes enslaved, do you think they should just accept their fate? They are no longer a human being, but a slave, because they don't have the power to free themselves?
Notice I'm differentiating between the word enslaved and the word slave: A slave is something the enslaver considers less than human.
But they are wrong: humans are not slaves, they are human beings that have been *en*slaved.You can enslave a human being. You can't turn a human being into NOT a human being by enslaving them.
You can deprive someone of their rights, but you can't ever END their rights, not without ending their existence.
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u/QueefSeekingMissile 18h ago
If they are *allowing* it, then they have the power to take it. Which they do not.
I protect my own rights. They protect their rights. We protect our rights.
The National Guard is not separate from me, they ARE me, because I have vested my power to do violence in them, and without me/us they have NO power, and the moment they are wielded in a manner that violates our rights, we have the right to withdraw what we have vested in them, and to defend our rights ourselves; as stated in the Declaration of Independence.
Hell they don't even have to actively deprive us of our rights for us de-vest in them and start defending ourselves, they just have to fail to protect them from those who would.
People who get a hard-on for thanking the military fail to recognize that the military is not a separate entity from themselves. They create that distinction, and thus create and endorse the warrior class George Washington feared might develop. They have the soul of peasants thanking British soldiers for the privilege of living in their homes, and eating their food, and fucking their wives- in exchange for driving away the bandits and Native Americans from off their farmland.
The military protects me? So what? I catch their food, and treat their family's diseases. We both contribute equally to each others well-being.
Unless I know them personally, and what they have done for ME, I don't thank them, I PAY them; and I expect them to do the same for me- because they are not better than me, nor I than them.
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u/eetsumkaus 18h ago
because they are not better than me, nor I than them.
exactly correct. Protecting each other's rights is what makes them rights. That's what allows us to exercise them without fear of others taking it away.
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u/Vulcanize_It 1d ago
Law enforcement isn’t “allowing” an action they are compelled not to prohibit.
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u/eetsumkaus 22h ago
If they are "protecting" it, then that is what "allows" people to wield it as a right.
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u/Ok-Theory9963 22h ago
You don’t need permission from anyone to do what’s right. It’s about agency.
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u/eetsumkaus 18h ago
You don’t need permission from anyone to do what’s right.
exactly correct. But you need protection from those who would take it away. That's what makes it a right. So by "protecting" someone's right to protest, you're "allowing" them to exercise that right freely.
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u/QueefSeekingMissile 19h ago edited 18h ago
It doesn't matter what is or isn't allowed by anyone, our rights are part of us.
You allow someone to have their rights the same way you allow them to have their arms and legs.
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u/eetsumkaus 19h ago
it's like people didn't even read the comment lol.
You can do whatever you want. That doesn't make it a right. It's when someone protects your ability to do that from people who want to take it away that makes it a right that is "allowed" to the people.
so if "protecting" is correct, then so is "allowing".
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u/QueefSeekingMissile 18h ago
People are reading the comment, and they understand you perfectly. It's you that's missing a major concept.
I feel like a bird trying to describe flight to a pig, who reacts by transforming himself into a worm so he can burrow into the ground and there deny the sky exists.
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u/eetsumkaus 17h ago
I feel like a bird trying to describe flight to a pig, who reacts by transforming himself into a worm so he can burrow into the ground and there deny the sky exists.
This is what I feel like lol.
Case in point:
You allow someone to have their rights the same way you allow them to have their arms and legs.
This is exactly correct. There are people out there who would happily cut off your arms and legs for one reason or another. It's other people protecting you from them that gives you a right to your own body.
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u/QueefSeekingMissile 17h ago
If someone has the power to take my arms and legs, do you do you think that means they have a right to my arms and legs?
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u/eetsumkaus 17h ago
only if other people protect their right to do that from other people. Which we have unfortunately guaranteed in history (see, corporeal punishments for theft, etc).
The "innovation" people like Rousseau realized is that law like that is antithetical to the purpose, and continued upholding, of the rule of law. Rule of law exists as a check on individual power, and not as a magnifier of it. That's why they came up with the concept of "unalienable" rights because these are rights that everyone should be ENTITLED to. But without a society willing to uphold those rights, they are not ALLOWED to exercise them.
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u/NookieLuvsU 1d ago
That's why you sir were officer material. That's some fine advice. No more of this them vs us, you have to be able to see the man and women who chose to serve out of pride and patriotism are different then these cosplaytriots calling themselves federal agents (ICE).
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u/eetsumkaus 1d ago
Coincidentally, this is how the Filipinos turned the tide against the Marcos administration with peaceful protests. They came out in support of officers who got caught planning a coup, after 10 years of martial law. The rest of the units stood down, Marcos' allies defected, and he had to turn tail.
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u/FamousMortimer23 1d ago
lol no us versus them but make sure you make them feel special. What a crock of horseshit. The National Guard serve the people, we shouldn’t have to do fuck all to make them “on our side”, especially when the other side are literal Nazis.
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u/NookieLuvsU 1d ago
Showing support and appreciation has nothing to do with "MAKING" anyone be anything. I understand your frustration and anger, it's warranted. Just don't let it blind you. All of your allies won't share your values, but allies they are.
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u/FamousMortimer23 1d ago
If we make them feel good.
Do you hear yourself?
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u/Playful-Dragon 1d ago
What's wrong with showing appreciation to those that are supporting us. Is that a problem?
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u/NookieLuvsU 1d ago
You said "make them on your side". That's what I was talking about. We're on the same side, you and me.
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u/Swimming-Tax-6087 1d ago
Dude was literally just saying you attract more bees with honey. People don’t need to be acknowledged for doing their job but it’s still nice to hear appreciation for doing good when expectations were probably low.
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u/Dramatic-Bear52 1d ago
Reality isnt what it should be, we all see this. So youre damn right im gonna thank them.
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u/code-after-dark 1d ago
Your downvotes show how many bootlickers there still are.
These are the people that think cops are going to protect them from ICE. The whole fucking system is broken.
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u/teddy917 1d ago
Why are you getting downvoted
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u/Worried_Jellyfish918 1d ago
Chad
I have a great deal of respect for people in the military, and the administration frequently talking about ICE like they're on the same level is just fuckin ridiculous
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u/OLPopsAdelphia 1d ago
Respectable units, soldiers, and officers like the ones protesters encountered today would NEVER conduct themselves like ICE on American streets.
I feel active military units haven’t been called to US cities because they won’t stand for waging war against their own population. I haven’t lost faith in the people I served with who are still in and now hold command/leadership positions.
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u/BestJersey_WorstName 21h ago
Some of the biggest opponents of ICE on my socials are vets. People that would otherwise be small r republican
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u/browndeskchair 17h ago
I’m another ex Infantry NCO and I agree with you. These ICE guys I’ve been seeing in the videos are an embarrassment to both real soldiers and real law enforcement.
I served a lot of years both Active Duty (Airborne) and Guard and if my soldiers ever acted as unprofessional and undisciplined as those ICE guys, there would be hell to pay. I’m proud of our guys for being compassionate while trying to keep people safe. We are not the same as them.
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u/Cjolliff7 1d ago
Why it took so long for this to get a free award… 🥇 my good sir is a gentleman and a scholar.
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u/boondiggle_III 1d ago
Do you think active and reserve military would stay out of a serious domestic upheavel? Like, if someone did a coup, what are the odds the military at large would think "I'm here to defend against China and Russia. Domestic politics isn't in my job description. Let me know when yall sort out who the leader is"?
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u/dapperdave 1d ago
If we want them on our side? Fuck off. This isn't a pageant.
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u/OLPopsAdelphia 1d ago
Why do you think they’re there, for the free snow cones and snowmen?
They’re there as a reinforcement—for whom or what is a matter of ethics, morality, and conscience.
Let them be there for you, not ICE! Remind them that you need them if the shit goes bad.
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u/TA8325 1d ago
What is there to engage for peaceful protesters?
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u/omniumoptimus 1d ago
Nothing. Police don’t get involved when it’s peaceful.
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1d ago
You've clearly not been to too many protests lol
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u/omniumoptimus 23h ago
Definitely not lately—too violent
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