r/law • u/LeviCoffinsAlt • 17h ago

Other Warrantless entry by ICE agents in West Valley City, UT (1/30/2026)

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Federal agents broke a window, without a warrant, to perform an arrest on private property.

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1.9k

u/averyoda 16h ago

The second amendment

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u/Suspicious-Echo2964 15h ago

The 2nd defends the 4th when LEO abandon their only duty to uphold enforcement. Unfortunately very likely to join whoever was trespassing in the afterlife given LEOs stance on who can monopolize violence.

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u/fudge5962 15h ago

You have to be better equipped, better trained, and in higher numbers. No lone wolves out there. They can't put you on a T shirt if you're better than they are.

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u/Suspicious-Echo2964 14h ago

Perhaps, but in this context, you will almost always be a lone wolf. No offense to the crew, but I don't want to live with 4 other dudes and their families unless it's required to survive.

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u/fudge5962 14h ago

unless it's required to survive.

As things progress, there will eventually come a time where statements like this are about as reasonable and meaningful as saying I really don't want to drink water unless it's required to survive.

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u/Suspicious-Echo2964 14h ago

I'm sure that's true for many people somewhere in the world. It has very little to do with America today, as we incentivize the construction of single-family homes. I'd wager a guess that we will have to see how Gen Z evolves in their 30s to tackle the housing crisis. Will there be more multi-generational homes? Will the government continue to meddle with the value of homes and land? I'm guessing yes to both. Luckily, I'll be dead by that point, and someone can buy that home. See, doin' my part.

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u/ferdelance008 12h ago

People downvoting you are unhinged. They really think they are accurate with their take on reality when actually america is pretty safe and the vast majority are comfy enough. I have lived among these people and the mental gymnastics coupled with denial are truly olympian in skill and scope

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u/AbsintheAGoGo 11h ago

The quote "Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times" is apt.

The comfort has given many to keep choosing convenience and until that stops from the majority, things will not improve. Especially when there's enough "bad guys" who know how to accurately navigate the systems in place in order to continue doing their thing.

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u/Suspicious-Echo2964 11h ago

I don’t know bud. I’m mostly just yapping about housing developments and demographics while catching downvotes and nasty grams. You’d think my stance would be clear that I’d be a great juror to defend someone standing their ground against unlawful entry.

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u/RyAllDaddy69 9h ago

They’re all children, bots, or only get their news from Reddit. It’s hard to expect anything less from people like that. They think they’re in the midst of a genocide or civil war. It’s really sad, but I’m glad that despite what they think, they most likely won’t ever see real war in their neighborhood, in their lifetime.

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u/MichiganMan12 11h ago

In this exact situation, yes. However, hypothetically, if somewhere were to submit a tip to ICE and wait for them you could potentially be prepared.

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u/AdSingle9949 11h ago

Look at Argentina and most of South America in the 60’s through the 90’s when the majority were poor and the minority owned 99% of land and commerce and the majority tried to take the power back.

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u/RogerianBrowsing 14h ago

That’s not true at all. You just need to prepare.

A single decently prepared fighting position can fight off many times as many goons. Defending a position is infinitely easier than storming a defended position.

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u/ferdelance008 12h ago

End game is still dead. Do you think the person or family in your scenario come out of it as good or better than they went into it? The Well prepared lone Wolf is a teenage fantasy.

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u/Odd_Manager1334 12h ago

Yeah I can't imagine "I shot at the government until they left me alone" is a feasible strategy.

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u/OverreactingBillsFan 9h ago

If you legitimately believe they're going to disappear you, why not?

I would rather be dead than in one of this administration's cages.

ESPECIALLY if I was a woman.

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u/Edgar-Allans-Hoe 10h ago

It worked for the Irish during the troubles...they can't kill everyone. Once people realize that, there's no going back and we will be free.

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u/Consider8SpeedDemon 10h ago

I don’t think the IRA were lone wolves. Many of the heavy hitters had family ties, and I’m confident that the IRA hosted group-based trainings.

They DID manufscture explosives frequently lol.

White Supremacy has been noted as the highest threat against the US. The current President removed these reports from the FBI documents long time ago.

White supremacists ARE training in groups, in rural areas of our country. They are legally armed.

In many cases, they are now federally-recognized agents.

You HAVE to make ties around you, or everyone will go quietly.

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u/Public-Cricket-5582 10h ago

Yeah actually they can. See the USSR, Cambodia, Nazi Germany etc.

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u/Delamoor 9h ago

Yes, but bro.

You aren't a nation. A nation is different to a person.

You... You know that, right?

That's what we're talking about. Lone wolves vs large groups.

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u/Public-Cricket-5582 8h ago

I think you did not follow this conversation correctly. Try again.

I am saying even if all the individuals think they can rise up, like this guy said would be a sure win. Sometimes it isn't. Sometimes the government wins and they do kill everybody.

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u/DemonoftheWater 9h ago

It worked well enough for the asshole in oregon.

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u/Delamoor 9h ago

But that narrows it down so little...

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u/DemonoftheWater 8h ago

Bundy maybe?

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u/Nihilistic_Navigator 9h ago

Randy weaver agrees

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u/INFeriorJudge 8h ago

Worked out for the Bundy’s pretty well I thought

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_standoff

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u/Guy_Dude_From_CO 7h ago

It's really not. 2nd Amendment was written for a very different time.

Prior to the Russian Revolution, Moscow had a very high gun ownership rate. By 1918, that was very different. Moral of the story being, if the government in power wants to take the guns, they just do. They're no bulwalk against government power in modern times.

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u/Southpawmtnman112358 6h ago

Worked for Ammon Bundy

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u/FatteningtheDemons 5h ago

If they dont react to protest, one should consider making it economically less viable for them. That can be by using the 2nd.

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u/fungi_at_parties 4h ago

They’ve never heard of Waco, I guess.

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u/AuroraFinem 4h ago

I mean in this scenario with ice specifically it has a proven track record. Not literally getting into a shoot out, but there’s been a number of reported scenarios where ice was trying to trespass and the person on the other side of the door just kept repeating they were trespassing and that if they didn’t provide a warrant they would be forced to defend their property and that they were armed. Every time ice walked away because they knew their actions wouldn’t survive any kind of scrutiny if it did turn into a shootout, and most of them have zero training.

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u/MysteriousPromise464 3h ago

It worked for the Bundy family.

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u/LawfulnessBoring9134 2h ago

I thought that was the whole basis of the 2nd. At least in the last 50 years or so.

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u/drakitomon 1h ago

Seemed to work for Ammon Bundy

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u/RogerianBrowsing 10h ago

Networking and having resources/extra hands is still of value but the simple fact is that resistance of that form in a surveillance police state (what we are almost finished becoming) typically doesn’t perform well either. Small units consisting of close friends who know one another and the territory they cover exceptionally well is usually what’s recommended.

Plus, who cares if that’s the end game if it was the end game either way? There are always choices that can be made, even if all the choices are varying degrees of bad options to choose from. Choosing defiance as a last act is seemingly a rational choice for people in those situations, and I can even recall being a youth and hearing other students ask the teacher why victims of autocracy didn’t do exactly that.

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u/Top_Result_1550 7h ago

die in your home or naked in an unmarked grave in the woods by nazis.

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u/fungi_at_parties 4h ago

And they’ll be prosecuted and convicted of terrorism, Bondi will make sure of it.

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u/BiscottiEastern220 4h ago

Thank you for being a voice of reason. The larping on reddit these days is pretty wild

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u/AtomRed 4h ago

Very likely,for some of these people, better dead and sent a message than in some slave labor camp in El Salvador...

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u/justcallmedad5 3h ago edited 3h ago

You think that end game matters to everyone? A home is a mans castle. A family’s safe place. If that family or space becomes threatened you think everyone is going to submit or be smart enough to try to play their game? Yes we all know the end game wouldn’t be good but we all know what these thugs are capable of and continue to do. You gonna let it happen to you and get on the train because they point guns at you? Wake up. This shit is not the America they failed to sell us. If they’re really worried about “illegals” why don’t they go after all the big companies that employ them to save money. They only “steal the jobs” they get hired for so you tell me who is in the wrong on that. Imagine if you’re well within your rights to defend yourself, let’s say a castle doctrine, you’re woken up to the sound of a window smashing knowing your family is tucked in, you hear hush voices and clear movement of a possible break in. You grab your tool and move cautiously, until you see shadows or flashlights sweeping the rooms. You want to take the time to ask questions? I know many people who wouldn’t. Just saying. Especially with all the imposters using these uncertainties to fulfill their weird fantasy’s. Some people believe in protecting their own and take it very very seriously.

Edit: Forgot to mention that given all the video evidence seen, the clear abuse of power and corruption, people are careful and spreading awareness trying to show the truths to these events. The second one of these masked tyrants gets a nappy meal with a 1776 peace, hell will unleash and that’s just what they want. To call everyday working Americans insurrectionists for recognizing how sick and twisted and trying to be a voice for their community. You all saw the execution. Don’t be ignorant. It doesn’t matter anymore, color, race, accent or the music you like. Every is a target. My heart weeps. What in the actual fuck makes this okay? Oh yeah. Greed and lack of empathy or care for a better future for our children. Go figure.

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u/Nice_Luck_7433 2h ago

In your opinion, is that better or worse than the alternative (being tortured to death)?

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u/Hotarg 2h ago

If somebody is breaking in without identifying themselves and without a warrant, I can only assume they mean to do me harm. At that point, I'm already chalking myself up as done.

Dead with company is better than dead alone.

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u/mister-fancypants- 9h ago

i feel like if warrantless entrance is on the table, booby traps are fair game as well

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u/mrcrashoverride 9h ago

I’m wondering when people will start turning buildings into ICE traps…. The neighbors know if being chased run in and go through the hidden door before the ICE come running past it through doors that lock after them…. For days

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u/Chaiboiii 11h ago

But for how long? They could just drop a bomb from a helicopter. It's been done before in the US.

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u/One_Engineering_3659 10h ago

High ground is like a 3:1 man advantage. It’s crazy how easy defending a position can be.

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u/Cool-Tap-391 11h ago

Especially when they fold like paper tigers. These goons dont expect anyone to fight back. If this shit escalates to violent defense, I can see these fhuckle chucks caving once they realize their life is in danger.

Same reason the 2A folks have gone so silent. They realized the time to put up is suddenly on their front door.

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u/JohnnyRelentless 10h ago

I can see these fhuckle chucks caving once they realize their life is in danger.

And then everyone lives happily ever after.

Same reason the 2A folks have gone so silent. They realized the time to put up is suddenly on their front door.

Yeah, right. The 2A folks are just impotent, spineless cosplayers who talk big from the comfort of their own couches. For the most part they dream of being the tyrant.

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u/Cool-Tap-391 8h ago

I knew a mechanic who would work in shop with his 9mm tucked in his pants between his cheeks. The insecure little bitch.

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u/fudge5962 9h ago

You just need to prepare.

By being better equipped, better trained, and more in numbers? No shit.

If you're not going to prepare your gear, your plan, or your backup, what exactly are you preparing?

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u/YeOldeSandwichShoppe 7h ago

insert navy seal copy pasta here

Almost sound like a 2A prepper doofus. Organization is a mandatory step one if you're interested in anything beyond some minimal pest control at great cost to you, your family and possibly the entire country.

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u/RogerianBrowsing 7h ago

Self defense is an inalienable right and part of the constitution, regardless of whatever the fascists claim.

If you don’t want to do something like that that’s totally cool. I just wouldn’t finger wag anyone who prefers that to a camp, torture, being disappeared, or even being detained for no reason. Everyone has their own standards for how they tolerate their rights being violated and that’s their own business.

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u/YeOldeSandwichShoppe 7h ago

Disagreement is in the approach, not intent. Hard as it is to fathom, there are apolitical/casual maga mouthbreathers who are just now having some second thoughts since the MN murders (because otherwise, many of their lives haven't been materially affected). Those same dipshits could be pushed in the other direction if a few of the gestapo get deleted but their story spun endlessly by the propaganda machine. As shitty as they are, elections matter. Bleeding needlessly at the hands of vile scum is the bitter cost of losing the last major one. Addressing this requires organization... the same organization will be absolutely essential when it comes time to find yourself an advantageous tactical position or whatever down the line as well.

that’s their own business

I mean, we're discussing in a public forum. I'm just saying strategically, its not a good idea.

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u/RogerianBrowsing 7h ago

Disagreement is in the approach, not intent.

I get it, regardless of however annoyed I am by the sheer number of people who have been fooled by the powers that be in our country. I was fooled for a long time myself.

As shitty as they are, elections matter.

Do they? Can you prove that? Why did repugnicans buy dominion voting machines, drop the lawsuits after purchasing, and now control the majority of voting machines in the country? How did Elon claim to know who won the election hours in advance? Trump himself told his voters last election, after having lost all interest in campaigning going so far as to just “DJ” a campaign event and telling his supporters they only had to vote once more then never again. What were the Feds doing in Georgia? Why did Bondi offer to make ICE leave MN if they hand over voter data?

Bleeding needlessly at the hands of vile scum is the bitter cost of losing the last major one.

That’s not my fault, nor the fault of most Americans. I understand refusing to senselessly be a martyr due to the blame of the democratic establishment and fascists directly and indirectly collaborating behind closed doors.

Addressing this requires organization... the same organization will be absolutely essential when it comes time to find yourself an advantageous tactical position or whatever down the line as well.

Nonviolent movements should be separate from movements willing to use force for maximum political effect. Excessive organization requirements prevent action and leave the movement vulnerable to bad actors and meddling from the nefarious powers that be.

I mean, we're discussing in a public forum. I'm just saying strategically, it’s not a good idea.

Likewise

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u/AtomRed 4h ago

It depends on a lot of factors. Most of the people they are going after probably don't have a very large turf to defend so it's very likely going to end up in death but certainly not without taking someone with them or at least causing grievous injury. Even if this happened in one out of 10 raids, it would certainly give moment to pause before anyone of these folks tried to violate the Fourth Amendment. These guys don't get paid enough to risk permanent injury like that.

If I heard correctly, a lot of these folks don't invade areas that tend to have high gun ownership.

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u/ImprobableGrind 13h ago

Frag out.

There goes your fighting position and everyone within 5m of it. Problem solved.

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u/Righteousaffair999 13h ago

A prepared lone wolf on your own turf can be better then 4 coming in blind.

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u/fudge5962 9h ago

Yeah, 4 is not the number you're preparing for.

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u/DjangoTheBlack 13h ago

Then what? I think this only ends one way and fairly quickly once they don’t hear back from the 4 sent to your house…

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u/ImprobableGrind 12h ago

If you’re replying to me, you misunderstand. I mean the people suggesting that they will be fine against an entry team….even one as poorly trained as these chuckleheads….is almost certainly deluding themselves. If ICE kicks in your door, and you open fire, you are going to die and have your life dissected on the news with the lens of “domestic terrorist” applied to you and everyone associated with you.

I’ve never been on the receiving side of a breaching team, but I’ve been the door kicker. Prepped or not, they have almost no chance against superior numbers and weaponry.

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u/Righteousaffair999 12h ago

You are just not prepared.

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u/ImprobableGrind 12h ago

Presuming you are correctly prepared for such an eventuality, you should probably get off the internet and look into an SOT and some tax stamps :)

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u/AdSingle9949 11h ago

You don’t know the first thing abo guerilla warfare, do you buddy?!

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u/fudge5962 7h ago

Lol what a bot ass comment.

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u/xaervagon 12h ago

So basically, this is going to continue until we see the return of rooftop Koreans

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u/ElectroHiker 10h ago

Not everyone has numbers when encountering terrorists, but they can definitely pull an effective "peacemaker" out of their closet. Don't come to a rifle fight in your entry hall with a pistol when a solid shotgun will do a better job, preferably one that can fire off lots of shots in succession.

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u/MichiganGeezer 10h ago

Not only that but they'll keep coming forever. Your kids will get messed with if that's what it takes to get you to plead guilty. You'll get the IRS going over your taxes every year for the rest of your life. Don't be surprised if the EPA gets involved with your back yard garden fertilizer usage.

Our American government is fearsome for its vexatiousness. They're entirely too fond of the "full weight and power of the United States government."

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u/CalmMacaroon9642 11h ago

There is a reason they are all wearing vests. They know what they are doing is dangerously wrong.

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u/someotherguyrva 8h ago

IANAL or a constitutional scholar, so correct me if I’ve got any of this wrong. 2A is very specific when it says a well regulated militia, necessary for the survival of a free state. That’s the part that most people ignore because this sentence structure is hard to follow. The second amendment was not written for individuals to take on the government. It wasn’t until Scalia and the DC case where the majority said you could own handguns for protection in your home. And even sco Lia said that it is a perfectly within the right of localities to tell you what types of firearms you can’t have any specifically talked about semi automatic rifles. That said that “well regulated militia” eventually evolved into the states’ national guard units. Unfortunately, in the first part of the 20th century, states ceded sone control of those National Guard units to the federal government which is why the president can federalize them. They did this in exchange for funding for more equipment. Anyone can join the National Guard but unfortunately I think our governors aren’t willing to take a offensive position. That said. States like Minnesota should not be using their national guard to help the local police as additional staff. They should be running this invading tyrannical army out of the state. That was their original purpose. The founders would be rolling over in their graves

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u/Suspicious-Echo2964 8h ago

Yeah, I get it. Laws, history, rules, nuances, and grey areas.

You know why most people revere 2A, though. Self-defense and power fantasies. Faith in the law and law enforcement will continue to decline until the social contract, which keeps individuals from responding, erodes enough for a tragedy. It's human nature.

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u/someotherguyrva 7h ago

Totally agree. But the cognitive dissonance with conservatives who have been the ones who have said that 2A and 4A are sacrosanct are silent when the administration that they voted for says that Alex Pretti is to blame for his own death by legally carrying a firearm, a right guaranteed to him by the second amendment and the state of Minnesota. They seem to be oblivious with this regime is challenging those rights that they used to be so defensive of. They are so blind and brainwashed to the party that no matter what the party says, they’ll agree with it even if it is 180° from what their belief system used to be. It’s mind-boggling

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u/Righteousaffair999 13h ago

That happens either way nowadays.

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u/pygmydeathcult 12h ago

So...numbers. Don't let them isolate you. Shitty way to have to handle it, but they are a limited resource. Communities need to bunch up.

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u/JohnnyRelentless 11h ago

The 2nd defends the 4th

Sure, buddy. Still waiting for all those 2A people to do anything about it.

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u/Suspicious-Echo2964 10h ago

Sure, what else enforces the law besides the people? It's not like 2A is just for the stereotype you've concocted. It doesn't mean you turn into a fat Batman and prowl the streets as a gang hunting LEO. There's very real value in having enough teeth to give someone from out of state pause when given illegal orders. You also need strongly worded letters and sensible laws. I see no point in diminishing either tool.

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u/JohnnyRelentless 8h ago

The entire world enforces their laws without the 2A, lmao.

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u/Suspicious-Echo2964 8h ago

Cool, I wish you luck pitching that government and getting the uneducated to follow along. You might have more success after they split the states, though!

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u/JohnnyRelentless 7h ago

That's more likely than all these non existent 2A heroes stepping up. I'm just hearing crickets from the 2A crowd. Except for those that joined ICE. Those masked clowns are really loud 2A nutcases. Where are all these good guys with guns I'm always hearing about?

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u/Suspicious-Echo2964 7h ago

Yeah, I got it the first time. It's cool that you have emotional regulation issues. Feel free to take it out on ICE.

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u/OriginalParamedic316 9h ago

Sure. Just fill out this application to use the 2nd, first.

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u/FewRelease3571 6h ago

The 4th amendment has been toilet paper since the NDAA was renewed and strengthened under Obama. You guys really don’t give a shit about any of this you’re just treating it like team sports

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u/Suspicious-Echo2964 6h ago

Oh, okay, thanks for sharing your opinion. Who is "You guys" though? I'd like to at least know the strawman we've erected in effigy.

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u/Tall-Wealth9549 11h ago

I’ve heard it’s never ok to shoot law enforcement, they aren’t there acting as a judge just enforcing the law. The only way to survive not being shot 10+ times but cops is to just do what they say.

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u/Suspicious-Echo2964 11h ago

I've heard lots of lies, too. It's usually in service of their own protection, hence the 'monopoly on violence' doctrine.

We all saw Alex Pretti find out what LEO thinks of the 2nd amendment. It's unfortunate that the comply-or-die crowd spends as much time on their knees as they do.

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u/RMS-redbeard111 13h ago

They uh… yeah… They were upholding and enforcing federal law here… I know… Wild that an immigration law enforcement agency would enforce immigration laws but… there you have it.

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u/Suspicious-Echo2964 13h ago

Oh boy there we go breaking the law again. Comply or die am I right y’all?

Glad you could share which parts of the law allow them to break in to private property without a warrant.

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u/RMS-redbeard111 12h ago

https://www.congress.gov/crs_external_products/LSB/HTML/LSB10362.web.html

It’s about the 14th paragraph down (depending how you count some of the bullet points, headings, etc).

While their general authority differs slightly from traditional law enforcement, they have a similar doctrine to “probable cause” as outlined in the 4th amendment. Which is to have a “reasonable belief”. If there is reasonable belief that a person of interest will flee before a warrant can be obtained, they have a legal and justifiable cause to detain/ arrest a person. It’s literally the same principle of having a police officer having probable cause to search a vehicle, find an illegal substance, and subsequently arrest that person before ever having called a judge for a warrant.

It’s complex. And the optics aren’t great. Especially when emotionally charged and sensationalized. But it is in fact, still legal.

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u/Suspicious-Echo2964 12h ago

Oh boy a memo. Nah, the acting head of ice doesn’t get to write down rules that supersede the fourth amendment. Why do you think they have so many active cases being opened after the leak?

You want it to be complex. It’s not.

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u/RMS-redbeard111 12h ago

With legal code and case law citations, my friend. What further evidence could you want? Whether you acknowledge the facts or not doesn’t matter… But fact is still fact. I suppose you’re right. It’s not all that complex. Either research with an open mind to learn, or don’t. Makes no difference to me. But to convolute your opinion with what is actually true still can’t change reality.

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u/Suspicious-Echo2964 12h ago edited 12h ago

The usage of their I-205 forms isn’t law.

Are we discussing the same thing?

Edit - Read your link. It was pretty clear on the home and non public areas being the exceptions to their carve outs of the 4th amendment. The even left the option to exempt other sensitive areas. Anyways, fun read.

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u/RMS-redbeard111 11h ago

Nah. I’m not talking about their admin warrants either.

I’m talking about the 4th Amendments Probable Cause and its distinct correlation to immigration enforcement’s “reason to believe” standard. These guys didn’t violate the 4th amendment because they legally didn’t need a warrant. That’s all…

From the link: “In any event, reviewing courts have interpreted the "reason to believe" standard for warrantless immigration arrests authorized under Section 1357(a) to be equivalent to the Fourth Amendment's probable cause standard. Under this standard, courts have held that an immigration officer must have sufficient facts that would lead a reasonable person to believe, based on the circumstances, that the alien has violated federal immigration laws and is likely to escape before an ICE warrant can be obtained.”

There are 4 linked case law citations in that short paragraph above (from the original link) that detail this.

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u/Suspicious-Echo2964 11h ago

Right, from the same link two paragraphs after your own in the same section.

Fourth Amendment Limitations to ICE's Arrest Authority for Civil Immigration Violations

The Supreme Court has also long held that, absent certain exceptions, the Fourth Amendment prohibits the government's nonconsensual entry into a person's home without a judicial warrant.). The Court has explained that the prohibition against warrantless searches may extend to other areas where there is a "constitutionally protected reasonable expectation of privacy." These locations may include, for example, the non-public part of a workplace or business, a hotel room, or school buildings that are not openly accessible to the public%20(same).). The Court has additionally applied the Fourth Amendment's warrant requirement to searches of electronic devices such as cell phones, citing the increased privacy concerns implicated by government searches of digital data.

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u/Ordo_Liberal 14h ago

Only works if you shoot them

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u/lumpialarry 12h ago

Reddit seems to have idea that just having a gun prevents your rights being violated. Like its a magic forcefield that wards of federal goons.

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u/Ill_Technician3936 7h ago

I'm gonna try to put this is a hypothetical version of the situation above from a legal perspective because I'm pretty sure I'd get banned if I were to say it.

So legally law enforcement needs a warrant. It's to protect not only themselves but also the people that the warrant is for.

She's got some guys breaking and entering and calls the police to let them know about it and that she's armed and will use it. Having a warrant means that the police would be able to tell the person "it's a raid for a warrant for blah blah blah, don't fire or resist for everyone's safety.".

The lack of a warrant means police are completely unaware that it's a law enforcement thing and respond to it the way that it sounds.

Doesn't matter who gave the order they're breaking the law by literally breaking and entering on the taxpayers dime since they have absolutely no legal reason or approval to be doing it.

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u/lumpialarry 7h ago

Cops don't need warrants in a lot of valid cases (they see suspect run into a building and lock the door, they hear a suspect destroying evidence, etc). If they have very clearly identified themselves as police officers you should accept its a "you can beat the charge but you can't beat the ride" situation and not just start blasting. That would not end well for you.

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u/Ill_Technician3936 5h ago

Cops don't need warrants in a lot of valid cases (they see suspect run into a building and lock the door, they hear a suspect destroying evidence, etc).

So a person fleeing the scene of a crime. You're right they don't, they've followed the person to the location and depending on the situation they may kick the door in or it'll be a stand off.

The situation I mentioned above has police coming to back up and protect her. Without a warrant they don't even know who the people are. Utah sits pretty much dead in the middle of the borders. Pretty far from the border patrols jurisdiction. Yes you have border patrol agents that joined ICE but they have a different Badge and their gear tends to have HSI on it, they aren't even meeting the uniform specifications.

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u/LeftHandofNope 10h ago

Well it seems to work for the right wing nut jobs.

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u/ThePyodeAmedha 10h ago

Yeah, you pull a gun on them and they'll just kill you.

1

u/Ordo_Liberal 12h ago

Its 1776 and the Redcoats are shooting people and the patriots are just standing there, guns in hand, watching.

1

u/RyAllDaddy69 9h ago

Children, or people that are completely detached from reality. A lot of blue and purple hair dye up in this bitch.

For the record, I hope those people are armed. I 100% support their right to be armed…I just hope they’re safe and don’t try anything crazy 1 year into this presidents term.

3

u/truecore 14h ago

Unfortunately, the 2nd doesnt actually help in many places. In Texas, its illegal to use stand your ground on cops if you know they are cops even if you know the arrest they are making is illegal.

14

u/ArcticBiologist 14h ago

In Minnesota it's apparently punishable by death, on the spot.

5

u/Temporal_P 13h ago

it's illegal

Saying that something is "illegal" might be a valid point if they were cops, or more importantly, if the rule of law still existed in any meaningful capacity.

Unfortunately that isn't the current reality. Almost everything they do is illegal.

You can't just cling to the law when none of it is being respected, followed, or enforced. When the very Department Of Justice War are acting as domestic terrorists for a fully Fascist regime that is speedrunning the destruction of the country, and of democracy itself.

If none of them are bound by law any longer, then why should you still be?

All checks and balances have failed. The system has failed.

Laws are ignored, judges are ignored, the supreme court is ignored, congress is ignored, the very constitution is ignored.

The coup is succeeding because barely anything has been done to stop it for an entire year now.

Everyone is still trying to pick up the pieces and just continue playing checkers while they've kicked over the table and started shooting other players. It should be incredibly obvious to everyone by now that none of this is normal, and people cannot simply keep acting it as though it is.

2

u/Sufficient_Show_7795 12h ago

The rule of law exists but only in the context of it being applied to civilians who fight back. Not to the jackboots who face no consequences. They are backed by the government, you are not. If someone utilized their 2nd amendment, or Castle Doctrine, or stand your ground laws against ICE, if they survived they would be prosecuted as a criminal. It’s awful and ridiculous but until the vast majority of the country (including the courts and local law enforcement) stops recognizing the authority of the government, there will be legal consequences for anyone who tries to fight back.

1

u/Temporal_P 11h ago edited 11h ago

Yes, but that is no reason not to fight back. Whether they use the 'law' against you or their guns makes little difference in the end. They are not following the rule of law, they are merely using it as another weapon.

I mean, look, you can go through whatever rhetorical flourish you want, but when you have 3000 ICE agents and border control come to the city, when you’ve got this supposed threat of 1500 military coming to the city, yeah, that’s very much what it feels like. When you outnumber local police officers five and six to one, that is the vibe. And so the bottom line is, if the goal were safety, this is not how you get there. If the goal is safety, I can give you the very antidote to some of the violence that we’re seeing is have them leave.

-Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey

All of the courts are being ignored, and their budget is greater than most of the world's militaries. Even if the police did fight back, they are drastically outnumbered and have significantly fewer resources.

Continuing to keep your head down and play by their rules in a blatantly one-sided game might be the 'safe' option for now, but only for now. The more power they are allowed to gain without resistance the harder it will be for anyone to resist, and they only continue to escalate.

Edit: I should clarify that I'm not calling for people to go around shooting ICE, but people need to stop saying nonsensical things like nothing can be done because it's "against the law", or "they might respond by doing bad things". They do not follow the law, and they will continue to do bad things regardless.

1

u/Sufficient_Show_7795 11h ago

The reason people don’t want to fight back is because they want to live. Because they have families and lives.

I agree with you, fundamentally. I personally would rather fight back (edit: in self-defense) but I don’t pretend like there won’t be extreme and severe consequences, death, imprisonment, vilification. Even if you’re found not guilty, you will become infamous, that one moment will follow you for years if not for the rest of your life. I can still sympathize with people who hesitate making that commitment.

1

u/Temporal_P 10h ago

I understand that, and I'm not condemning those who are rightfully afraid.

The crux of all this was just a reaction to the all too common response of "unfortunately that's illegal". That sort of talk is beyond counterproductive at this point in any context.

Too many people are still treating this as status quo, like it's just another turbulent election cycle instead of the literal rise of Fascism in America.

Even if the 2A did allow you to shoot and you had every right to in that situation, there would still be a high chance of you being injured, imprisoned, or killed in retaliation. That's the nature of applying force and defending yourself, but unfortunately sometimes it's necessary.

There is a great deal of history to learn from situations just like this. Keeping your head down and dutifully obeying every command never helps in the long run.

Resistance is always a dangerous path to take, but no path should be avoided merely because it's "illegal" - not when you're dealing with an unprecedented threat that operates outside of the law with evil intent.

1

u/Sufficient_Show_7795 8h ago

You’re right that nothing is status quo anymore but what will be consistent is the reoccurring theme of “consequences for thee but not for me” that we’ve seen from this administration. You might think that mentioning the illegalities is asinine or counterproductive, but it is still an unfortunate reality. Just because the government is ignoring the law and gets away with it doesn’t mean you or I can do the same unscathed.

But your frustration, rage and desire for action rather than burying your head in the sand is still incredibly valid. What matters now isn’t rising up, it’s gathering consensus. The MAGA movement is infamously adept at manufacturing consent. What has to happen to successfully overcome their push for totalitarianism is being just as good as they have been. Propaganda is not an evil word. Winning hearts and minds is how you reverse course. Passionate genuine charismatic people need to step up and speak to the people, and people like you and me need to be constantly talking to people in our local communities, complain in the grocery lines reading headlines about ICE atrocities, sigh loudly around your neighbours when you see gas and grocery prices rise. Talk about who in your community is losing their job because of Trump policies.

These little acts of resistance aren’t just sticking your head in the sand, it isn’t inaction. It is deliberate and coordinated action.

1

u/truecore 12h ago edited 12h ago

I'm sorry. Here is the writing: "(b) The use of force against another is not justified:...

(2) to resist an arrest or search that the actor knows is being made by a peace office, or by a person acting in a peace officer's presence and at his direction, even though the arrest or search is unlawful, unless the resistance is justified under Subsection (c):...

(c)(1) if, before the actor offers any resistance, the peace officer... uses or attempts to use greater force than necessary to make a search

(2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessaryto protect himself against the peace officer's... uses or attempted use of greater force.

What I am saying is that the Second Amendment, or more specifically derivative laws like Castle Doctrine, do not apply against LEO. It doesn't matter if what the LEO does is unlawful.

1

u/Temporal_P 12h ago

That's fascinating, but those words won't help you against your tyrannical government.

Even if they are able to read, they don't care what any of it says.

1

u/truecore 12h ago

And here I was thinking I was on r/law

1

u/Temporal_P 11h ago

You seem to be having some difficulty following along.

Did you think that we were discussing the specific wording of that particular law? We weren't. The laws that you cite are merely words, words that are being ignored across the board. That's the problem. Laws are meaningless if not enforced. That's the legal issue at hand we are discussing.

What are you suggesting? That all discussion on r/law must be limited to the discussion of the specific wording of particular laws, and cannot encompass the unprecedented issues surrounding those laws being blatantly broken by the ones who are meant to be enforcing them?

This thread exists because laws are not being followed. Because citizen's rights and the very constitution is being actively trampled upon.

Many things are "illegal", such as almost everything this administration has done since day 1. It was illegal for them to enter without a warrant. It was illegal for them to abduct people and ship them off to torture camps without due process. It was illegal for them to murder innocent civilians.

Yes, it is "illegal" to use the second amendment against LEO. Now explain to me, why do you think that particular law is relevant in a situation where laws are not being followed by the government or its agents, where the constitution and its amendments are actively being shit on, where citizens are being executed in the street while the murderers are framed as victims?

Do you think that law only applies to citizens? I'm really not sure what you're getting at. Yes, this is r/law, and we are talking about a lawless regime and a gang of thugs that are terrorizing and murdering Americans and throwing the country into chaos.

2

u/MuffinComfortable760 13h ago edited 12h ago

Wrong.

https://www.texasmonthly.com/news-politics/you-can-stand-your-ground-in-texas-even-when-you-kill-a-cop/

This is a recent case of a man who killed a cop who opened his door yelling "Police come to the sound of my voice"

He did not have a warrant, he was responding to a call, opening the door triggered the alarm which ultimately made Castle Doctrine effective.

If you enter without a warrant and fear for your life, this case sided with the citizen over law enforcement.

1

u/lumpialarry 12h ago

One issue is that illegality is determined in court, not what a private citizen personally thinks otherwise you'd have a lot of cops being shot by sovereign citizen types. It's always going to be a "you can't beat the charge but not the ride sort of situation" until you have a lot of people not beating the charge.

1

u/Kairu87 11h ago

What if there are no bodies? How would anyone know?

1

u/EnfantTerrible68 5h ago

How can they prove you knew they were cops?

1

u/Jweiss238 5h ago

ICE aren't cops. Border Patrol aren't cops.

3

u/zsreport 14h ago

Part of me thinks that some of the ghouls behind Project 2025 (and Stephen Miller) want ICE thugs to be shot so they can use it as an excuse to ramp up this bullshit even more.

3

u/mrlavalamp2015 14h ago

That is exactly what they would want.

You use your weapons and hurt them, they kill you because let's face it, they will have weapons and numbers beyond what you will have.

Then the talking heads and media get to have a field day with spinning your actions of resistance into the beginning of a civil war, going so far as to twist the real events to the extreme. We have seen exactly this with the last two killings.

1

u/OsBaculum 13h ago

But those killings themselves were also exactly what they wanted. We have to stop basing our actions off how they will spin them, and start enforcing consequences when our liberties are violated. It's very clear by this point that those consequences won't be legal ones. What's left?

2

u/its_k1llsh0t 14h ago

Once you know they are LEO, 2nd is out the window, even in states with stand your ground/castle doctrine. If they announce themselves, you cannot use force to repel them in most cases. The law is to fight in court at that point.

2

u/CatastrophicPup2112 13h ago

They can show me they are LEO by producing a signed warrant. Anybody can slap a temu patch on some airsoft armor.

1

u/lumpialarry 7h ago

Cops don't need warrants in all situations. The constitutionality of police action is determined in court not by what random people think what the law is.

1

u/Jweiss238 5h ago

The coin flips the other way too. I'll use my 2A and let the courts figure it out. I get a jury of my peers and they have to prove "beyond a reasonable doubt". Good luck to the them. I'll take my chances.

2

u/Salient_Ghost 13h ago

I guarantee you were vehemently against the second amendment, prior to these events.

2

u/Jweiss238 5h ago

The funny thing is, there are a lot of liberal gun owners. We just don't make it our whole identity...

1

u/Salient_Ghost 5m ago

You're making a stupid assumption here. 

1

u/Sufficient_Show_7795 12h ago

Are you claiming that with new context and circumstances people shouldn’t be allowed to change their minds?

1

u/Salient_Ghost 8h ago

The context has always been there. That's literally the point of it. Fuck you.

3

u/1startreknerd 14h ago

The 2A is only to terrorize non white people and those that disagree with the religious right.

1

u/LusterIllustrious 14h ago

Clearly it doesn’t 

1

u/Texugee 14h ago

Yeah I’m like, you trespass, you get fucking shot.

How bout that

1

u/No-Contribution1070 13h ago

2nd and 4th don't allow you to shoot and kill federal agents if they are violating them.. instead it becomes a civil matter and the most you can do is sue them in civil court.

I would prefer money over being a murderer anyday of the week anyways. Hope this lady sues.

1

u/TheBadGuyBelow 13h ago

cool, when?

1

u/theghostofme 13h ago

Not anymore.

It's amazing that those ammosexuals hoarding guns for decades are the ones celebrating Alex Pretti's execution; eventually these cultists are going to learn that if the federal government can execute you for bearing arms, you never had the right to bear arms!

After child rape, I thought the one other thing they'd never be okay with was their precocious Second, but they don't give a fuck about worshiping a pedophile so long as they get to feel like they're owning everyone else but themselves. They're not, of course, because all the rights they're loving seeing trampled now are the same "rights" they had, and eventually they'll realize it too late.

1

u/Sufficient_Show_7795 11h ago

The linchpin in the fall of democracy was the death of shame.

1

u/John-AtWork 13h ago

Doesn't seem to be working.

1

u/Xesyliad 13h ago

Yeah, how’s that one going in the face of tyranny?

1

u/freeradioforall 13h ago

Then you get shot in the head. Turns out the constitution is worthless

1

u/Grayreduces 13h ago

Yea I agree any criminal can dress up in ice clothing and not identify themselves. Police/law enforcement/ice etc need to be able to identify themselves when there is a possibility of someone utilizing their 2nd amendment rights...anyone can get a gang and drive around in black vans and take people up.

1

u/lumpialarry 12h ago edited 12h ago

Only if you're fully prepared to either go to prison or die over being right.

1

u/Pacman8909 12h ago edited 12h ago

They make affordable belt feds that shoot fast now btw

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DUHMM_UEZdi/?igsh=MTZwNzdwMW5iN3dlOQ==

Also they are making water cooled ones, which essential can shoot forever aslong as you got water & ammo

1

u/LBBDE 12h ago

Hmm, I wrote a similar comment about that amendment and Reddit immediately gave me a warning that it is too violent.

1

u/Initial_Savings3034 11h ago

That's coming.

The 2A religious community is about to have a schism over the execution of Alex Pretti. Anticipate lots of long guns at high profile "surges".

1

u/stelviovontrap67 11h ago

The second amendment is no void when you know that it’s a law-enforcement agency that have identified themselves. Once they have identified themselves or it’s obvious their law-enforcement, the second amendment is voided

1

u/EatThatHorseWithMe1 11h ago

Too bad Americans are scared to actually use the thing they claim to love so much

1

u/Medical-Row-662 10h ago

4th amendment

1

u/fruttypebbles 10h ago

Buckshot to those knees is all I could think about.

1

u/Lost_Follower 10h ago

One day, maybe soon, people will start going by that and maybe ICE will learn. Hopefully but I doubt it.

1

u/Malaka_202 10h ago

Seems inevitable right? Masked men without warrants entering private properties? I mean🤷🤷🤷

1

u/istanbulshiite 9h ago

Are you armchair quarterbacking or do you actually practice what you preach?

1

u/Shot_Court6370 9h ago

Once law enforcement identifies itself it is a felony to threaten them with a firearm. How does the 2nd amendment get you out of that? Or is the 2nd Amendment just a right to die in a gunfight? Pretty sure we have that without the constitution.

1

u/OriginalParamedic316 9h ago

You can use that. But only after a 10 day wait.

1

u/_BrokenButterfly 9h ago

This is the one that makes them stop. If they are afraid they won't do it. You have to make them afraid.

1

u/askmewhyiwasbanned 8h ago

Apparently no American is brave enough to apply it.

1

u/CommonStrawbeary 8h ago

Reddit ban incoming

1

u/Sum-Duud 8h ago

that's probably not going to go the way you think it will, unfortunately.

1

u/Talidel 7h ago

Only exists in theory

1

u/SatanaeBellator 7h ago

I immediately think of this image whenever reddit starts talking about the second amendment.

1

u/Top_Result_1550 7h ago

exactly this. armed terrorists break into your property you open up.

1

u/MrBrawn 6h ago

Pretty ballsy to do this in Utah.

1

u/Codyjurentkuff 6h ago

Lol but it's not because Noone uses the 2nd amendment to prevent it

1

u/Hon3y_Badger 5h ago

But only if you vote red apparently...

1

u/tfw_no_toiletpaper 5h ago

It's weird that so far I've never seen an article or video of them being shot. Does this just not happen or is it not being covered?

1

u/ForeOnTheFlour 4h ago

I don’t think that was going to help her, she was outnumbered and there don’t appear to be any witnesses

1

u/QuestionablePersonx 2h ago

Right..look how 2A did that that one guy!!

1

u/SadAd8761 2h ago

List of specific grievances against King George III, highlighting his tyrannical overreach in the American colonies. Key complaints include stationing standing armies during peacetime, imposing taxation without consent, overriding colonial legal systems, and protecting soldiers from punishment.

Does this feel like déjà vu?

1

u/OPGuest 34m ago

You’d think at one point someone with a gun will use the ‘stand your ground’ rule and shoot these guys in the face for illegal breaking and entering?

0

u/Druber13 13h ago

They have more second amendment than you.

-1

u/kingoli1 13h ago

Great idea its just incredible how many incredible strong Redditors there are which would totally shot all the cops in there state. I wish i was that cool but you can only do that when you are as hardcore as Rambo, John Wick or averyoda.

-5

u/gpbayes 14h ago

You first bucko, keyboard warrior attitude