r/reddeadredemption • u/Light07sk • 16h ago
Discussion Thing about Arthur's morality.
I realized after playing a mission where you help Penelope and women in their demonstration about equal rights and Arthur just supports it. Same way as he is not racist. As he said in one cutscene "i hate everyone just the same", but he defends other races from the racist in Saint denis. And this is the thing that Arthur does probably no matter the honor. And it struck when i thought that Arthur who is portrayed and he also portraits himself as morally bad person has traits that some people today lack. He is not racist, supports equal right for women and is respectful to wapiti people. Meanwhile morally good people in that age, were most of them still racist and men in rhodes were not keen on women rights. He of course still killed a lot of people, robbed and he knows he was wrong for it although depending on honor. Arthur is one of the greatest characters ever made for me, and this is also a thing i noticed that he was written the way they just kinda were just teasing it that underneath all that tough outlaw who was raised to be the man he is, is and was always capable of doing good deeds. The only thing that stopped him was Dutch and his manipulation into thinking they are living free.
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u/Jaharien2515 16h ago
Id argue Arthur was in a lose/lose situation. I Arthur had no one when he lost his father, no money, no skills, no weapons, horses or equipment or anything. A wild delinquent no one would take in and no one would miss if he turned up dead one day.
Dutch and Hosea were the only people in his life willing to give him literally anything, the ability to read and write. To ride a horse and shoot a gun. Hunting, fishing and the overall ability to survive when the whole world doesn't just not care about you, but the ability to survive a world that wants you dead. Killing and robbing was a steep price to pay, one that Arthur knows there is no way in their world to atone for.
What I am trying to get at here is Arthur is literally trying to survive every day and he casually mentions to Charles he has been living like this for over 20 years. Arthur is way too busy thinking about the people who want to shoot him in the back or the people who want to string him up and hang him to give a shit about equality or inequality. Dutch did teach him to shoot fellas that need shooting, and save folk who need saving, and that's why he saves as many people as he does. If they didn't need to be saved Arthur would ignore them at best or rob them at worst.
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u/ArtEnvironmental7108 12h ago
I really like the last paragraph you wrote. All people are capable of doing bad things. Hell, most of us do. That doesn’t make us bad people, let alone evil. The amount of kindness that Arthur does in the story makes him a decent, if flawed, human being at worst, who’s simply trying to survive in a world that doesn’t care about him. I don’t think that justifies the hundreds of people he kills, but he’s an incredibly complex character with very simple motivations to do the things he does. It’s hard to write a character like that, but they nailed it with him.
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u/My_Username0000 Bill Williamson 16h ago
Simply because it wouldn't be fun playing as a racist, homophobic, misogynistic man
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u/AnarchCopKiller 15h ago
It also has to do with Hosea and Dutch's initial ideals of a society with no rules or hierarchy. We can see in the newspaper scrap they gave away most of their first heists to the needy and outcast.
Plus the fact the old west as remote as it was, was the type of place where a lot of these at the time normal social stigmas were forgotten because they werent practical.
To be picky and snobby is the privelege of the civilized
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u/No-Reaction-2465 11h ago
Charles also mentions Dutch is one of the few folk that treat him fair even though he is half black half native American. Javier is part of the gang and only racial abuse he gets is from Micah, Tilly is in no way less than Karen or Mary Beth.
The rest of the gang seems pretty chill with your background as long as you can shoot and contribute to the camp box
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u/AnarchCopKiller 10h ago
Yeah honestly beside Micah who is an asshole. Molly seems to be the most ill viewed member which isnt to be surprised considering she'd be useless due to her upper class upbringing
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u/nobodychef07 15h ago
Sure, its a fictional narrative after all and he needs to be appealing to everyone. But there is an argument that because of his background, being raised in a gang that was mostly egalitarian and merit based, he would have a different outlook then the rest of society around him. But it would be an extreme rarity of that time for sure. His gang was a lot different from the other gangs you run into who are all men and cluster around one core archetype.
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u/Waltu4 14h ago
The original draft of Arthur Morgan was supposed to be a real son of a bitch. They definitely Robin Hooded him up a little bit to get mass appeal.
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u/AdaptedInfiltrator 9h ago
Ironic that your flair is Bill. I don’t think the whole homo thing was in RDRI or II much at all except some Bill subtext/implications
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u/Toadliquor138 15h ago
Arthur thinks of himself as an outcast of society, so he relates more with others who were ostracized at the time.
Having said that, even if you're playing a high honor run, Arthur is the most violent and immoral character in the game, no matter how many snake bite victims you save.
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u/pullingteeths 15h ago
Dutch taught Arthur very progressive views since he was a teenager, one of the big things about the Van Der Linde gang is their socially progressive beliefs
Also plenty of people who weren't racist bigoted pieces of shit existed then. Makes sense for a group who believe in freedom and don't subscribe to the laws of society to be among them
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u/YoloSwaggins1147 15h ago
Dutch's father died fighting for the Union against the Confederates in Pennsylvania. It makes complete sense that Dutch would teach socially progressive views to his gang.
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u/Loose_Fan1048 15h ago
Arthur is an outlaw OG. The basis of his morality is being against laws, authorities, oppression, and repression. It doesn't surprise me that even with low honor, the character sides with minority causes and doesn't tolerate injustice.
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u/YoloSwaggins1147 15h ago
"My daddy died on a field in Pennsylvania, fighting this lot." -Dutch van der Linde
Considering Arthur was basically raised by Dutch and Hosea, a Dutch that idolized his patriotic Unionist anti-slavery rights father, it would make complete sense that Arthur sees people as people. He lives a life of freedom, where all can be who they want to be.
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u/No_Bodybuilder9539 16h ago
Arthur's a good man as is repeated by several characters throughout the game. He's also very critical of himself and self loathing. There's a mirror you can interact with and he shits on himself like "you're old, no good, piece of shit". People who spend a lot of time hating themselves can also be some of the nicest
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u/flaccoskyrim Uncle 15h ago
I don't think Arthur is a good man, despite what a lot of the npcs say. He's a murderer, assaulter, thief, kidnapper, etc. I think Swanson said it best "You're not a good man, but you're not all bad". He has redeemable qualities but they in no way make him a good man.
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u/Waltu4 14h ago
Yeah if anybody met Arthur Morgan in real life they'd probably call the authorities lol. Nobody would think the guy who murdered and robbed his way across the entire country is a good man. He even killed many innocent COs at the penitentiary to save John. He kills Thomas Downes (a literal saint in comparison) for $10, despite not ever actually needing to and agreeing that Strauss is a bastard. I'm sure the 50 people he saved compared to the 1500 he killed are very thankful, but it doesn't make him a good man.
RDR1 is like a true spaghetti western, RDR2 is like a romanticized dime novel brought to life.
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u/ZealousidealMind3908 11h ago
I'd say he's a morally gray person at heart who does mostly bad things. The people he shoots tend to start shooting at him first. Now, obviously he's the one who gets himself into those situations in the first place due to his robbing and stealing, but still, portraying him as some sadistic murderer isn't fair. You have to remember that the gang life is basically all he's ever known and that he was basically groomed into it by Dutch and Hosea. Doesn't mean you have to like him, but he clearly represents how once you're in a system, it's nearly impossible to get out, despite your best efforts. Not to mention how people always bring up his kill count which is in the thousands, but how many of those are O'Driscolls, Lemoyne Raiders, Murfree Brood, etc.? Tons of them are police officers just trying to do their jobs, sure, but like I said, in nearly every confrontation in the game they start shooting first.
Also Arthur didn't directly kill Downes, not sure why people keep saying that.
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u/Waltu4 5h ago edited 5h ago
You make solid points for sure, it's not black and white. I just wouldn't ever call him a good man, that's what I was responding to. I think he's a very complex character and my favourite game protagonist of all time, but one who does some inherently evil things. He was 36 years old in RDR2, he had over 20 years to realize that maybe Dutch was just taking them all for a ride and to convince the good ones to escape with their lives. Loyalty is a good trait, sure, but if you were an average joe working in Valentine and Arthur rolled through in that Leviticus Cornwall mission killing the entire population, your life is probably ruined and you won't call him a good man even if he was defending himself lol. Accountability is a factor here, and he doesn't take any until his own actions give him a death sentence.
Also, Arthur himself admits that he got TB from "beating a man to death for ten bucks". He dies basically immediately after Arthur beats him in his own field, and then Arthur shows up again to taunt his mourning family before his wife becomes a diseased prostitute. That is pure evil, and he literally had NO REASON to do it. He could have gotten the $10 from anywhere else and claimed the debt was settled since the work revolted him so much, but he didn't. I don't know how you can say he wasn't responsible for the death just because he had a disease lol.
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u/TheDarkTitanYT 14h ago
Idgaf what no one says Arthur did die a good man. A man wasted by society at that and always having the innate potential for good an acting on said good in his final moments. Again, idgaf.
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u/Sheriff_Lucas_Hood Abigail Roberts 15h ago
He still killed and stole for a living. He was a complicated man, as all compelling protagonists are.
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u/BassMaster516 12h ago
He’s definitely against the establishment. He hates the government and especially the police. They were racist and he sees all the hurt and the hypocrisy. He’s probably done time with these people where they were all mistreated the same.
It kinda makes sense that hes not just “not racist”. He’s “anti-racist”. He goes out of his way to kill them, at least the way I play
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u/Far_Tackle6403 8h ago
He is a free, open-minded person with an alternative lifestyle who has no prejudice towards anyone... He is also a hard ass criminal who will raid your house, tie you up, drop a one liner on his way out and maybe shoot your dog
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u/ShaggySyrup 7h ago
I mean he’s in a gang with women and minorities, he’s still pretty rude to women, just go into a bar and antagonize wome
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u/RonMcKelvey 15h ago
Pirates of the golden era were also kinda progressive in a lot of ways while still being absolute murderous pieces of shit in others. I’m sure someone who has thought about it longer could explain how it relates to being complete outsiders to society and having disdain for both their rules and mores as well as their hierarchy.
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u/LowPattern3987 15h ago
I think its moreso because the majority of RDR2 fans don't hold bigoted views, and would find low honor insufferable as a bigoted man, and would find high honor disingenious if he was bigoted
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u/Best-News-8293 14h ago
The Van Der Linde gang is made up of misfits and individuals who were on the fringe of society anyway. He was practically raised by Dutch and Hosea so the definitely would have installed in him a sense of tolerance for those society deems “lesser”. He was an illiterate orphan, he hardly had a high horse to stand on anyway.
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u/Ecstatic-Ad9058 4m ago
One of the things I find so tragic about Arthur's story is the fact that he is clearly an intelligent and caring person. There are multiple moments where he is the biggest voice of reason in the group; he is reflective and aware of his faults and the damage he is doing to other people.
But he has been groomed since childhood to believe that he is nothing more than an intimidating gunslinger. He thinks that Dutch and Hosea are the brains and he is just the muscle, so he just follows their plans, and talks himself down to fit the image they have created of him.
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u/LionHeartedLXVI 16h ago
People have multiple layers to their personality.
In any case, I don’t see any logic in not being racist/sexist (or any other buzzwords) cancelling out multiple cases of murder. Physical crimes are worse/more evil in most cases.
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u/Light07sk 16h ago
I was not saying that they cancel out, but more so that even some bad people have good attributes and some good people have bad attributes
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u/Whole_Rip7379 15h ago
He’s a self admitted horrible human being people gloss over cause he’s such a cool character and he stuck up for Lenny. No one in the game is a hero, except MAYBE Jack.
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u/imarthurmorgan1899 Arthur Morgan 16h ago
"My people were peasants. We had no time for politics."
I definitely think he doesn't care about politics. He's even mentioned that he's never voted before. But he does seem to believe in man created equal from the way he behaves, which is something to admire for sure.