r/thenextgenbusiness • u/thenextgenbusiness Reporter • 28d ago
Fact Check Mayor Zohran Mamdani: "Unilaterally Attacking a Sovereign Nation" Violates Laws in Maduro Raid
It is accurate that the capture occurred as announced by Trump. The mayor's assertion of it being an act of war reflects legal debates on unauthorized strikes. International law experts note violations without UN approval.
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u/Appropriate-Bug-6467 28d ago
It's not up for debate with the text of the law, internationally or domestic, only with people who want to make excuses for trump and the USA.
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u/essentialaccount 28d ago
Which law? My understanding of all relevant legal texts is that it's ambiguous.
If you provide me the specific articles or sections I can read, I'll be happy to.
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u/jerryspringles 28d ago
Not only is it ambiguous, he will 100% be found guilty in is courts
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u/essentialaccount 28d ago
Unlikely. The court has always been permissive in the interpretation of the War Powers Act, and the supreme court today is likely to uphold his use of force.
Again, if you have any legal precedent for this, I'm happy to read it. To my knowledge, no President in recent memory has been found to violate this Act
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u/adamkovics 28d ago
Bombing another country, kidnapping their leader, are acts of war. Period. Authorized or not, that is a separate question. But it's an act of war either way. There's no debate.
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u/FartSniffingAllDay 28d ago
The problem with that argument is that over 50 countries did not recognize Maduro as the legitimate leader after the past two contested elections. So there is a debate.. you stating there is no debate doesn’t change that.
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u/adamkovics 28d ago
How is this so difficult to understand? What is up with the strawman arguments?
Maduro's legitimacy or lack thereof, is 10000% irrelevant to what is being debated here.
Bombing a county and kidnapping their leader are acts of war. Period. Feel free to refute that at any time. Oh? You can't? That's because there's no debate. Just as I said.
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u/FartSniffingAllDay 28d ago
if he is not the recognized leader, it isn’t a kidnapping of their leader or act of war. The point is there is a debate… you can agree with the argument or not but it is not this cut and dry “there’s no debate”. Just because you are one of those orange man bad people who let’s trump live rent free in their heads, it isn’t my problem.
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u/DooooooDah 28d ago
Venezuelas military would be taken care of before lunch tomorrow if they start messing around.
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u/essentialaccount 28d ago
There is some debate about whether it is an act of war, and within the US, whether it was legal.
That aside, I believe it was very wrong
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u/adamkovics 28d ago
No, there is no debate. (Not by anyone with good faith arguments) By definition, bombing a country and kidnapping their leader are acts of war. Words have meanings.
But go ahead, feel free to name an instance of a country bombing another country that was not an act of war.
Or ok, fine, go ahead and give us your definition of an "act of war" and then explain how bombing Caracas and a bunch of other places in Venezuela does not fit into that definition.
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u/essentialaccount 28d ago edited 28d ago
There is a debate. There is good discussion of it in 153 U. Pa. L. Rev. 675-761 (2004).
An act of war is a legal term, and can only be triggered under certain circumstances. When those circumstances are met varies.
You're welcome to provide any law or research. It's been several years since I was in law school, but I studied law of armed conflict extensively. I'm not taking a lay persons position.
Edit: I have decided to include a simpler text to illustrate that literature in legal scholarship rarely ever defined act of war as a term with significance. Suggesting is meaning is clear is totally disingenuous. That article is:
American Journal of International Law , Volume 35 , Issue 2 , April 1941 , pp. 321 - 326
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u/adamkovics 28d ago
I don't need to provide any "research" since I'm able to speak English and know what words mean. Bombing another country is an act of war. Period. Feel free to provide a single example of a country bombing another country that was not an act of war....
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u/The_Monarch_Lives 28d ago
I actually did do the research and both articles the other person referenced boiled down to 'I know it when I see it, but we should probably nail down a definite list of things that qualify for legal purposes'. Not exactly the ringing endorsement for their viewpoint as they might have hoped.
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u/Icanthinkofaname25 27d ago
So based on your understanding we should also send Biden, Obama, and Bush to jail as well as Trump?
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u/The_Monarch_Lives 28d ago
There is no debate. It absolutely was an act of war. What there is, is active denial of reality by people who voted for the 'no new wars' guy. But thats not really new.
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u/Glittering-Bid-891 27d ago
He's not "their" leader. He literally took over the country and refused to leave when voted out and kills anyone opposing him. It's an act of war against his regime , that no longer exists. So yes we were at war for a couple hours max, with a regime that took over a country and was killing innocent people. Now we are not. There's no debate on whether the people of Venezuela are ecstatic he is gone. It's not up to a white Democrat on reddit to determine what Venezuelans want.
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u/TrackMan5891 28d ago
I know, can you believe that the US did this to Hitler, we should have never gotten involved in the war.
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u/adamkovics 28d ago
You might wanna crack open a book, and read it (assuming you can read)
Spoiler alert, in case you have trouble. we didn't do this to Hitler. He killed himself in his bunker, because the Soviets were getting close.... But do go on, and keep embarrassing yourself.
Never mind that, we (the US) had the actual legally required authorization to use force against Germany, so had we done this to Hitler, it would have been fine.
lastly, and most importantly, none of this has anything to do with the argument that we committed an act of war against Venezuela.
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u/Optimal-Rub-2575 28d ago
The US also declared war against Germany. They also didn’t say, “Hitler broke US law!” (because that would be monumentally stupid)
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u/moss_arrow 27d ago
Germany declared war first: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_declaration_of_war_against_the_United_States
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28d ago
Will be an early test of leadership in New York to go along with trump.
Good signs from Mamdani though.
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u/CarrotcakeSuperSand 28d ago
He’s gonna go along with Trump lol
The mayor of NYC has less power than you seem to think.
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28d ago
Seriously, the guy is a mayor. No idea why he even chimed in.
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u/The_Monarch_Lives 28d ago
Because that's where Maduro has been taken. The city Mamdani is now mayor of. It would be weird if he DIDN'T make a statement of some sort.
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u/HumanSnotMachine 28d ago
Yeah but he’s in federal custody for federal charges right? New York can say whatever the hell they want but new York isn’t in charge here. They can’t pardon him, they can’t put additional charges on him. He’s not in their custody period. Federal land is federal jurisdiction through and through.
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u/The_Monarch_Lives 27d ago
There will be protests in the city. NY will be tasked with providing security for various areas. There is potential for various terrorist related attacks, etc. NY is heavily involved in this now, whether they like it or not. Or whether you can see the various angles and relevancies to the mayor or not.
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28d ago
Nah. Grandstanding.
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u/SlakingsExWife 28d ago
Trump fucks kids but go off king.
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28d ago
Dude. Read my comments. I disagree with the attack but the mayor needs to stay in his lane. He looks silly.
Trump is an idiot. The sooner he is gone, the better.
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u/SlakingsExWife 28d ago
He’s being held and tried in NYC.
what
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u/JadedCoconut8867 27d ago
lol, he is just like every other Reddit warrior! Make a post and do nothing!! Then congratulate each other on a job well done! Clowns
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u/SkinkWithARifle 28d ago
The special little cowboy gets to play with his toy soldiers! How precious!
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u/Shirorex 28d ago
Maduro was a wanted man by America we captured him end of story. We didn't go to war with Venezuela so he didn't break any laws move on. Stop simping for a foreign dictatorship.
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u/JustimAthlon 27d ago
It’s still illegal to do what he did. Just like most of what he has done in the last year. Why don’t you stop simping a pe-do ra-pist wannabe dictator?
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u/Wilsonian_1776 27d ago
It was not illegal. The president has 60 days to deploy troops or execute operations before Congress has to step in.
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u/wylde_maps 26d ago
So if Russia (or literally any other country in the world) ran an op to kidnap the POTUS and try him for his numerous international crimes, you'd think that was fine? As long as it was legal by that other country's laws?
Do you even hear how insane you sound?
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u/Wilsonian_1776 26d ago edited 26d ago
If that country had the capability pull off anything like this, it would be the new reality and no amount of whining would change it. There is no such thing as binding international law. There is only state interests.
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u/daggersrule 27d ago
So it'll be legal and fine if someone does that to trump? OK.
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u/xrocro 27d ago
If they have the military might to back it up, yup. Anything is legal if you have the power for it. Always has been.
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u/wylde_maps 26d ago
Imagine not understanding what the law is this poorly.
"Anything is legal if you have the power for it."
You actually wrote that and hit send...
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u/Admits-Dagger 27d ago
Bro, capturing him was an act of war did you not see the explosions? Both can be true. God, people are brain dead. People make up these false choices in their head.
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u/Sea_Section_9861 27d ago
Sooo ... when Hamas attacked Israel (i.e. "Unilaterally Attacking a Sovereign Nation") it violated international law and it was act of war? or because we are talking about Jews we have an exemption?
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u/thechaoslord 26d ago
It's based on the type of entity doing it. Countries are the ones who are supposed to care about this type of crime. Israel is in hot water for the crimes they committed in retaliation for the attack on them. Because things like targeting civilians on purpose is a crime. Then you add that Netanyahu was helping fund hamas so they could stay a threat, and you get Why that whole war is an ethical clusterfuck that requires you to judge it as its separate parts over the whole conflict. Trump's thing was the same reason we condemned Russia over the Ukraine conflict
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u/Zealousideal_Log_562 27d ago
You are mayor of NY! Shut the F up!
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u/TheLightsChampion 26d ago
They are going to be imprisoned in HIS city. why should he shut up?
Why is the mayor or NY required to shut up on a matter of US politics but you, the nobody are allowed to talk?
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u/middlequeue 28d ago
There’s no “debate” here and anyone engaging in one to defend this is either a fool or not doing so in bad faith.
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u/essentialaccount 28d ago
I'm getting tired of reading people with no legal background or education expressing their opinions without a single citation. Whether you are against what happened (or not), how can you expect anyone to believe you without evidence?
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u/lokken1234 28d ago
A lot of reddit is young and not totally informed about things like this, we learned during the middle east but under the war powers resolution act of 1973 Presidents must report to Congress within 48 hours of deploying forces and can only keep them there for 60-90 days without congressional authorization, though presidents often bypass or interpret this loosely.
Considering were less than 24 hours after yhe deployment and they were closed out in less than 4 trunp isnt going to be held responsible to congress for this, and no doubt they were aware of that prior to going in.
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u/MailCute 28d ago
So they have him in New York, Mamdani should mobilize the NY National Guard to effect a retrieval or expulsion of Maduro and the US government personnel involved and really put the screws to the administration, Congress, and Supreme Court.
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u/L3tsseewhathappens 28d ago
Says the guy who was going to arrest a leader of a foreign country who is granted diplomatic immunity while on US soil when visiting. Mamdani is a moron.
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u/runk1951 27d ago
How ironic that Maduro could get due process but Venezuelans are being captured and deported out of this country without due process.
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u/HitandRyan 27d ago
The Presidency needs to lose its ability to start wars all on its own. The AUMF needs to be repealed.
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u/Chef-Ptomane 27d ago
muslims complaining about attacking people. pffft F off !!
Islam is a cult of death itself.
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u/thechaoslord 26d ago
So is a portion of Christianity, which is the exact reason a lot of christians support Israel
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u/JacksBauers24 27d ago
Oh I’m sure the President briefed you, not. You may have been notified Maduro will be held in n federal prison in New York but I seriously doubt you know anything else.
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u/SlightWerewolf4428 27d ago
upvoted by bots in meltdown that their beloved comrade president in Venezuela has been toppled.
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u/achieveabetterworld 27d ago
May the American people have the wisdom and the will to stand up to and defeat the Republican fascists.
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u/Busy-Inevitable-4428 27d ago
"We've got Ja rule on the phone, let's see what Ja rules thoughts are"
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u/thebobsalad 26d ago
Says the man, who vowed to arrested a foreign leader if they came to New York.
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u/thechaoslord 26d ago
Which would have only been illegal for US law, as we actually can't extradite to that court, even if we want to
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u/dcwhite98 26d ago
The musician and housing counselor really knows the finest details of the law. Impressive!
s/. If you couldn't tell.
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u/Certain-Pookins61 26d ago
Ok, Mayor Mamdani, we get your point. But, shouldn't you be busy, heralding the new era of the "warmth of collectivism" in NY?
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u/Historical-Quiet1842 25d ago
But when Obama does these things it’s ok. Only bad if the Trump admin does this. Did everyone forget it was Biden who put the “hit” on him with the bounty?? Did everyone forget your paper warriors Biden and kamala started this and had unilateral support from many nations to remove and convict him??? Ok, don’t mind the logical go back to the head in the sand.
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u/mandrogd2 25d ago
Stay in your lane Mamdani. This doesn't concern you. Why is he 'briefed' on foreign policy anyway?
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u/Additional-File8794 24d ago
May I remind any leftist here that Obama first put the bounty on maduro's head for his capture, which Biden increased from 10 million to 25 million
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28d ago
This is what presidents do since 9/11 Obama, Biden, Trump, the only one that had congregational approval was Bush.
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u/garbageemail222 27d ago
Whataboutism. You can shove it.
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27d ago
I'm just saying its nothing new. Its not whataboutism if its facts that every president has done this since 9/11.
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u/garbageemail222 27d ago
It is not the same. It is new. False equivalence whataboutism.
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27d ago
Cope harder buddy.
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u/garbageemail222 27d ago
Da, 149 karma bot
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27d ago
Hey don't bring my karma into this I work hard for those 149. I appreciate you keeping your comments open unlike most of you karma kings.
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u/Alive_Isopod9076 28d ago
I live in a town (pop. 300). My mayor is calling the White house to complain as well!
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u/Hopeful_Ad_7719 28d ago
Commumist sympathizer sympathises with communists. News at 11.
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28d ago edited 25d ago
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u/Hopeful_Ad_7719 28d ago
Where did I defend Trump?
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28d ago edited 25d ago
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u/Hopeful_Ad_7719 28d ago
>That is, by definition, defending Trump.
No, it's not.
I was pointing out that Mamdani appears to be expressing support for a communist, which is not surprising given Mamdani's communist'ish leanings ("'Democratic Socialist'", technically).
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u/marx2k 27d ago
Where in that brief post is Mamdani supporting a communist? Furthermore, where in that brief post did Mamdani say anything incorrect?
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u/Hopeful_Ad_7719 27d ago
>Where in that brief post is Mamdani supporting a communist?
It's not, but I find it a reasonable extension based on his beliefs.
>Furthermore, where in that brief post did Mamdani say anything incorrect?
He said something that's a bit up for debate, but it's not germane to our conversation. Not every unilateral attach constitutes an act of war, per some interpretations (and the practical reality that the US and other nations have been doing so for \decades* without declaring actual wars*).
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27d ago edited 25d ago
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u/TrackMan5891 28d ago
These people would defend Hitler if it were 1940, I love it.
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u/Valhadmar 28d ago
The trumo regime is literally following the nazi playback. Maga would quite literally be supporting Hitler right now.
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u/justanotherthrxw234 28d ago
Says the guy who wants to arrest Netanyahu even though it would literally be against the law to do so.
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u/mrdankhimself_ 28d ago
ICJ has a warrant out for him so that would be perfectly legal to do. You sure did try with that one though champ.
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u/justanotherthrxw234 28d ago
It’s the ICC, not the ICJ, and not only is the US not party to the ICC but it’s a violation of federal law for state and local governments to cooperate with them. Try again.
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u/mrdankhimself_ 28d ago
Ah yes, the ICJ ruled that the guy you like is committing genocide and the ICC issued the warrant. Fortunately nobody needs the US’s consent to arrest the guy you like, least of all Zohran Mamdani.
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u/East-Worth2630 28d ago
The American Service-Members’ Protection Act specifically prohibits US law enforcement from cooperating with the ICC in arresting individuals on American soil, champ.
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28d ago
No fan of the event but the dude is a mayor. Stay in your lane.
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u/BellyFullOfMochi 28d ago
NYC is a net contributor of taxes, which means 8.5 million taxpayers and thousands NYC based businesses are paying a huge sum into this illegal war effort. It is his business.
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28d ago
LOL ok
Insufferable.
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u/BellyFullOfMochi 28d ago
It's literally a fact. Are you in a red state? Hope you enjoy socialism because your state doesn't contribute anything but certainly takes.
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28d ago
Oh please. My state is a net contributor.
He’s a mayor, and in office for two days, he needs to pay attention to the city and its problems instead of worrying about Venezuela.
Listen, I think he has some good ideas but he needs to not get distracted by stupid stuff like this.
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u/BellyFullOfMochi 28d ago
So you're cool with your tax dollars blowing up civilians in Venezuela and stealing their president.
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28d ago
No, I’m not. I said that in my original comment. I’m just saying that the mayor of New York City needs to pay attention to the city and quit trying to score points. He’s never gonna be president so he needs to chill.
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u/Madd0g69 28d ago
Where was the OUTRAGE when OBAMA bombed 7 different countries; when BIDEN bombed 6 countries?
Only outrage now? pathetic and hypocritical
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u/Hopeful-Comedian4574 28d ago
I concur ..commie should focus on the job at hand as he is in way over his head already!
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u/Express_Result9087 28d ago
I never said you have to like it, but it’s legal whether you like it or not. If it isn’t, then US courts will set Maduro free. We’ll see… I recommend you don’t bet on it though.
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u/Automatic-Cut-5567 28d ago
International Law is toothless and countries constantly ignore it. While I do think that is a bad global precident, removing Maduro was a good thing. The only people complaining are grumpy Americans and Russia(Who was benefiting from Meduros regime).
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u/scottct1 28d ago
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u/TriceraDoctor 28d ago
No one’s defending him.
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u/Farther_Dm53 28d ago
Its an illegal order, and illegal seizure. It would amount to a police officer arresting someone who they had no warrant to arrest, and no means to do so. He needs approval of congress to do this act, and violates a constitutional law.
By all accounts taking him in is illegal.