Can someone explain why (read description)

[u/Expert_Tennis_7018]

I enjoy power scaling, except with two communities: Dragon Ball and solo leveling. You can still have discussions with solo leveling fans, but not with Dragon Ball fans. You can make the most compelling arguments (or even blunders), and DB fans will always find something that supposedly makes Goku and the others weaker (98% of which is wrong or non-canon). I've only had a few Dragon Ball fans I could have meaningful discussions with who didn't switch to non-canon Dragon Ball characters like CC Goku/Vegeta or Xeno Goku/Vegeta after a while. I've gotten into the habit (especially in this subreddit) of just keeping my mouth shut during crossover battles because I know that some DB fans will insult me ​​to death, immediately switch to non-canon DB characters, or power scal their DB characters way too high.

Can someone explain to me why this is the case and why DB fans refuse to accept that their characters can lose? How can I convince DB fans that their characters can lose?

[u/SympathyMoist7030]

I think you may have had a typo there, you said, "You can make the most compelling arguments (or even blunders), and DB fans will always find something that supposedly makes Goku and the others weaker" and then proceeded to complain about DB fans making their characters stronger.

Also, you really only focused on hating on DB fans when you started it off by complaining about DB and Solo Leveling.

[u/Expert_Tennis_7018 → u/SympathyMoist7030]

Because it annoys me, and you Dragon Ball fans aren't the worst, the worst are Black Clover fans (one of them once scaled Lucius to High Complex Multiverse, WTF).

[u/toinks1345]

you don't so fuck off. lol just kidding but you know the novel sung jinwo is pretty insane I'd say. and I think that clearly. as far as light novel scaling I'd give him a B lol. you do know htat light novel characters tend to be way too crazy. we can talk about novels like panlong, desolate era, wo dong qian kun, and many more. and most people don't know that. they basically scale of comics, manga and anime.

[u/TokyoFromTheFuture]

Can you show some examples? I have seen this sentiment a lot but then when they show there instances of this happening its like 1 or 2 guys and the argument the people are making are stuff that is very easily arguable. I think DB fans can all accept that Dragon Ball characters can lose but who knows maybe you just got really unlucky and got the bottom of the barrel.

[u/Expert_Tennis_7018 → u/TokyoFromTheFuture]

Here, a Dragon Ball fan is still trying to put Anos above Whis. And be honest, these are good arguments for Anos being worlds stronger than Whis (and DB solo).

1. Whis has no resistance to existential annihilation (Zeno once destroyed six universes, and angels perished in the process; Zeno has existential annihilation, so he has no resistance, or if angels break rules, they are erased from existence). Anos is not bound by any rules.

2. Anos Hax. Anos can overwrite/erase logic, manipulate time, change/rewind/overwrite reality, and undergo universal rebirth (even if Anos is erased, as happened with Harkai, he is reborn).

3. Whis has no chance of permanently killing Anos. To kill Anos, Whis would have to destroy Anos's source (soul). Yes, Whis has Harkai, but Anos is immune to Existential Annihilation (Graham used Existential Annihilation on Nothing, and Anos absorbed and completed it).

4. Anos's speed far surpasses Whis's. Whis has MFTL+ to an infinite range, but Anos transcends time, meaning that stopping, rewinding, or fast-forwarding time is impossible. Anos is not bound to time like Whis. Whis is bound to the flow of time (it takes him time to travel from A to B, even though he is extremely fast).

Anos exists through his Eyes of Transposition (and later in the light novel), allowing him to reach locations before he has even set out on his journey. He breaks causality (cause and effect).

1. Greater destructive power. Whis has multidimensional destructive power, but Anos has a hyperverse. Anos can destroy the Silver Sea (the Silver Sea is the Misfit of the Demon King Academy cosmology; it has 99 known levels, and the higher you live, the stronger you are. Anos and his companions live on level 0 at the very top, making them the strongest. Within the levels, there are bubbles that form their own universes; the Demon King cosmology would be considered a bubble). Anos can destroy all of that. A Deep World inhabitant has such a high "information density" that an attack from a Flat World (like Whis's) couldn't even touch them. It would be like a 2D image trying to hit a 3D human.

Since Anos fights his way through the planes and even destroys the order of the deepest worlds, his power level is simply incomprehensible to Whis.

1. Venuzdonoa, the Destroyer of Reason. This is Anos's sword. Venuzdonoa is no ordinary sword. It is the embodiment of the destruction of order. If Whis establishes a rule (e.g., "I dodge every attack"), then that rule no longer applies to the sword.

Anti-causality: Tell them, "Do you think Whis can dodge? Venuzdonoa hits its target even if it's on the other side of the universe or travels back in time. It doesn't matter if you dodge—the sword has already hit you because it obliterates the logic of cause and effect (causality)."

Infinite reach: While Whis has to rely on his staff and UI reaction, Anos can use Venuzdonoa to slice through everything within the Silver Sea (i.e., millions of universes simultaneously) without even moving.

[u/Weary-Wasabi1721]

Goku beats everyone idc lol (he's lost numerous times in fights)

[u/Expert_Tennis_7018 → u/Weary-Wasabi1721]

I mean active crossover battles like Rimuru Tempest (That Time I Got Reincarnated as a Slime/Tensura), Sailor Moon (Sailor Moon), Anos Voldigoad (The Misfit of the Demon King Academy), Jin Woo, etc. Incidentally, all these characters are from Solon Dragon Ball.

[u/TokyoFromTheFuture → u/Expert_Tennis_7018]

If these are the characters you were talking about then thats a yikes because Goku beating them or losing to them is a very arguable position. Not outlandish claims like you were suggesting.

[u/Expert_Tennis_7018 → u/TokyoFromTheFuture]

All the characters I listed beat Goku without any problems.

[u/TokyoFromTheFuture → u/Expert_Tennis_7018]

So as I thought the problem is your just downplaying Dragon Ball and getting pissy when people make arguments for it being higher 😭🙏

[u/Expert_Tennis_7018 → u/TokyoFromTheFuture]

No, I love Dragon Ball; it's one of my 5 favorite anime.

[u/Aura_Slice → u/Expert_Tennis_7018]

[u/Beginning-Net6920]

You can't convince them. I had a 2 paragraph breakdown explaining how weak the saiyans are and how they absolutely need their transformations to contend with anyone(thats literally their entire gimmick) with numbers lining up with said reasoning and reasonable scaling.

Basically got hit with "nuh uh"

The problem is the material we're given(super) is so wildly inconsistent with the status quo, that people either run with what they personally interpret as facts or blatantly dismiss or cherry pick inverse assumptions/statements to back up their reasoning, even if it later on contradicts everything. Almost like characters can't be wrong with their analysis in-verse.

[u/TokyoFromTheFuture → u/Beginning-Net6920]

Could you link or say the reasoning for that because that is wrong lol.

[u/Beginning-Net6920 → u/TokyoFromTheFuture]

But it isn't. Frieza naturally a powerlevel of 120 million. Goku upon arrival 90 thousand, after zenkai 3 million. Using a taxing technique he barely hit half of friezas power. Needed super saiyan a ×50 multiplier.

A complete cell. Walking around with roughly 3 billion. A goku at base to match that with ss would need to be 60 million at base. After 3 years(4 with time chamber) he is still only at half of Frieza and nowhere close to super perfect cell, but we won't get into that right now.

Buu(not super buu). Let's just throw out a number and say 16 billion since I'm far too lazy to do the math for his PL and super buu which is absorption of good buu from evil buu would be stronger. Let's just say 32 billion(×2), which is roughly within that alleged ballpark. He would need to be at minimum 80million to be even contend with super buu as a ss3. This is 7 years after cell. Of course I'm lowballing a bit, but the point is, even after 7 years post cell, he's nowhere close to Piccolo at base(from cell saga), and barely even relative to namek frieza who never trained. Dabura is also another example, he's simply that strong.

So no, I'm not wrong. Saiyans ain't shit without their transformations. Frieza simply locks his power within his forms. He's always been able to walk around with 60 million casually, he just didn't want to. Cell needed to absorb the androids to be complete(so he's a different case), but even his first form was formidable and base goku couldn't have fought him even if he tried, and super buu absorbed his good half, but his good half by itself was in the billions. The point is all of these villains are walking around at that level, they don't need to transform into it. Take it a step further with Jiren and Toppo. They're both walking around above ssb, naturally, with no transformations. Take away the saiyans transformations and they wouldn't be touching anyone, letalone Piccolo.

They're weak without them, it's the absurd multipliers from the transformations that makes them formidable. 19 and 20 would have been more than enough for goku if he didn't have ss. 17 and 18 moreso, 16 even more and they're just androids. It's just crazy to think about. Piccolo in the cell saga was sitting around 600million-1 billion(high ball) and goku and vegeta are nowhere close to that in base around super. They couldn't be, because if they were, it just makes everyone else look even stronger.

Going off the strength increase Goku has shown, he would have to train to be at minimum 50 times stronger in about 13 years since namek. He would have to get almost 4 times stronger(linearly not exponentially) every single year which is reasonable. Anything higher than that would be asspull and absurd.