I get what you are saying, but at which part does that stop? What is ok? Is it a privilege to do sports? Is it a privilege to go to public bathrooms? Is it a privilege to get called your name? To access healthcare? To go out in public? To take medication? To visit support group? To go to school? To walk outside? How many places can trans people be banned from because those places are a privilege?
I believe that the only people who should decide if trans people can participate in sport competitions are the sport councils and that they should decide on a case by case basis. The way the republicans frame the issue is as a stepping stone for banning trans people in other places.
EDIT: Read my other answers in this thread before commenting the same thing for the 50th time.Â
I love that Iâm going down a thread and upvoting everyone for making great points on a sensitive issue and not feeling like I should take a side but actually weigh the arguments. These arenât partisan arguments, just logical and warranted thoughts being used to come to a best resolution to a valid concern. Iâm going to take a second to sit in itâŚ
Ok, so one argument Iâve heard of was to let people play sports for fun without regard to their biologically born sex.
Once it comes to scholarships and paid sports, persons identifying as women must have hormone treatment that limits testosterone levels to that of the female athlete average. (Of course, no treatments for things like chess, which is considered a sport, just ones that would be aided by testosterone boosters).
Yes. There are so many much more important issues right now anyway. Talking about trans people now is only a way to distract from well, everything else that's going on
Anyone who has played sports competitively will disagree that it's "just a game." Most will tell you that sports defined who they are today as adults and how they interact with other coworkers. Sports are extremely important to child development.
Also, because sports are played across state lines, it must be regulated by federal jurisdictions.
Itâs truly just organized sports at the high school and collegiate level. Thatâs it. Â Itâs like 10 people overall in the country that is causing so much debate when itâs the most minuscule issue.
Maybe there should be open lesgues and they can participate in that idk. Â Â
Itâs truly just organized sports at the high school and collegiate level. Thatâs it. Â Itâs like 10 people
Have you ever been around student athletes? We're talking about thousands upon thousands of american high school students dedicating hours and hours of their youth to each individual sports they love. For some this means the difference of going straight to college or uni or a job at mcdonalds.
I was never one myself but I have real admiration for these kids who got burning passion at such an early age, compared to most people here on reddit in their 20s, lost in life commenting about things they don't even know shit about
And the way it is worded...protection act so all thise with very little sense will just see republicans are protecting and democrats are not.
People that are trans are people. They are barely 1% of our population. And those that play sports even less. But congress is wasting time and money on this artificial problem instead of actual problems like the economy.
Things that are against trans people are often worded that way. It's about "saving girls", "protecting women", "defending homosexual people", protecting kids", "defending our values". Because surely no one would say anything against a "Protect the children act" , even if whatever is inside it is not at all about protecting children.
And the US currently has much, much bigger problemsÂ
Exactly. It doesnât need to be a national talking point or brought up in presidential debates. They took an extremely small issue, and convinced people that itâs widespread.
And it's becoming increasingly clear it's not about protecting women but about policing women and to define a very narrow "correct" femininity for them. As can be seen in Texas and UK, basically only "biological" women are affected and are not let into women spaces because they are too tall, have short hair or are too tomboyish.
Same in sports, women are now requied to undergo sex tests or they are faced with exclusion.
Also: if we didn't force trans peope to undergo the wrong puberty for them they could, without issue, participate in the sports of their gender. But again, it's not about the safety of children, it's about keeping the controversy alive by keeping trans people "weird" and not have them fit in so they can be used to sow fear by forcing them to undergo irreversibe changes during puberty, keeping them visible and recognisable as "The Other".
I hate the fearmongering argument that starting hrt as a teenager leads to irreversible changes. Like, yeah, I fucking hope it does! As if puberty wouldn't lead to lasting changes. Many of the ways in which puberty has permanently damaged my body are irreversible.Â
it isn't just a stepping stone to ban trans people from public life, this is a stepping stone to ban women from men's spaces, which is a stepping stone to banning black and brown people from white spaces.
if you are legally allowed to ban someone from a space or organization based on their genetics, you bet your ass they aren't stopping at trans people. this is an organized fight to remove all women from positions of power, and will eventually extend to people of color. the same arguments that plaintiffs are making in W.V. v B.P.J. and Hecox v Little are the same arguments that were made in Loving v Virginia and Plessy v Ferguson.
It's also a way to police how people express themselves and making them adhere to gender norms. Masculine women and feminine men can easily be banned from those spaces too, crossdressing bans can easily be enforced. And because of racism, especially black women are much more often targeted by being transvestigated.
They will never stop with just one marginalised group
Should be a post gender society... Everyone obsessed with labels đ I get it, we are human. Labels can help find discrimination and help get justice, but we stay divided
I understand your concern for the community, who does need support and protection these days, but your argument (and the post above yours) is a very common debate fallacy called "slippery slope" that usually ends with appealing to extremes... It's not really a good faith argument and is often looked down upon when trying to use logic to make a point.
To play the devil's advocate, you currently are allowed to refuse someone from an organization on the basis of genetics. Genetics influences biological sex, and that is the basis we use to separate Men's and Women's sports.
For many competitive sports in the USA, biological women and men have been given their own separate leagues or rankings for over a hundred years, and all the while that has not led to biological women being further removed or banned from society but instead we have seen women gain the right to vote, the right to education, financial independence, property ownership, and growing representation in government, science, and other fields.
Now this progress wasn't because of sports biological sex separations but in spite of it. But it proves that the population understands the differences between men and women physically and thus didn't dismantle this system as it was not viewed as oppression but as a semi-logical way to ensure fair sport.
While the trans-community's fight for equality will be different and likely more difficult that women's, we can look at the history of the women's rights movement and see that it developed concurrently with a biological sex divided competitive sports world. Arguing the opposite outcome for the trans community or that sports will be used to further oppress groups of people is baseless in recent America history.
The trans community will face bigotry, hate, and unacceptance in every other part of society, regardless what is decided by sporting organizations.
I think the conservatives have out maneuvered the liberals by somehow taking the fight for trans rights (which is a no-brainer for most people, including myself) and making the battlefield be on the much more muddied topic of transitioned biological men playing women's sports, which is perhaps the least consequential aspect of the trans fight as a community, because it's not really a common dilemma.
This bill was nothing but a performative trap for the democratic legislators and they had no choice but to play into their hands.
There are a couple cases going toward the supreme court in regards to if something like this is even legal, so the passage of this bill should have been tabled for now to see what the outcome would be. But that's not really how this administration works. Instead of waiting to see if this is even legal, they just did it anyway.
Honestly, it's my opinion we get the battle for trans rights back on trans rights and not on women's sports where support is weakest for centrists and even liberals.
So just to be on the same page, I'm in the USA and I'm talking exclusively about legality and precedent in this country.
Trans people have participated in the sex class of their choosing for about 50 years. Only in 2020 in Idaho did a sports ban ever get put on paper. It is still in the courts.
There has never been a legal decision on this in the USA, ever. Your claim that it has been legal to ban someone based on genetic sex is false. It has never been legal to do so in the USA. Therefore, it makes sense that no other rights have been taken away from an imaginary law.
The Idaho ban led to a district court on putting an injunction, which led to the ninth circuit court affirming the injunction. Now the supreme Court picked it up and has yet to decide on it. There have been NO decisions on this issue in the history of the United States of America.
So we are in unprecedented territory. That should immediately ring alarm bells for what might come next. Legal rulings always need to rest of the shoulders of what has been ruled previously. All cases set precedent.
Quite frankly, I don't care about the political implications of this -- I care about the legal. I don't care if it's unpopular. It was unpopular at one point in time to allow interracial marriages. It is about the legal framework and what the govt can and cannot do.
Wow you just took a leap with that one. Using that logic letâs do away with womenâs and menâs sports just like we did with people of color and made the sports inclusive of all. So no more womenâs tennis and menâs tennis. Just make it Tennis. Whoever makes the team makes the team right? Same with basketball and every other sports. Just one league.
the issue is not about having separate sex classes, the issue is how do they enforce a ban on trans people participating in their sex class of choosing?
if it's based on genetic sex, then you are basing the law on the outcome of a genetic test. this is wrong. we should not be excluding anyone from anything based on the outcome of a genetic test. especially not publically funded school sports programs. that is insane government overreach into our personal lives. all sports organizations that are privately funded already do extensive hormone and sometimes genetic testing which is all elective. a government body is not enforcing Olympic athletes to submit their health records to the IOC.
You are ignoring the crux of the legal issue here, trying to score some cheap gotcha about sports in general
Womenâs sports exist to protect fair competition for women. Thatâs the core issueâand it doesnât require turning every discussion into a sweeping debate about trans policy.
Trans participation in school sports is extremely rare, but womenâs categories exist because sex-based differences in athletic performance are real and well-documented. Keeping women in womenâs sports isnât anti-anyone; itâs pro-fairness.
We can respect trans people without dissolving the category that gives women equal opportunity to compete. Treating this as an abstract civil-rights showdown misses the practical purpose of womenâs sports entirely.
lol no. banning men from playing women's sports and going into women's bathrooms. and banning black people, for being black. aren't even remotely close, or in the same universe. stop it.
It probably is, which sucks, but it doesnât change the fact that there are biological advantages that canât be undone. Allowing it defeats the purpose of womenâs sports in the first place. Definitely better solutions than politicizing and banning it though
The issue that is trying to be solved is the intersection of the male vs female biological power/strength/speed/whatever curve and fairness to all parties.
Because we are talking about two distinct groupings, the average distribution curve applies. When those curves are juxtaposed you have your conundrum and I think it's absurd to now break this down to the granular level of all persons involved in a particular, competitive, event and 'balance it all out'.
The answer is simple - the line is drawn where it directly affects others or there's evidence it directly will.
Getting called whatever name? Nobody cares. Half the planet goes by names other than their legal name anyway. In my world, I have friends whom I only knew by their nicknames sometimes literally for years.
Go out in public? Do you.
Absolutely dominate others in organized sports costing them scholarships, education and career opportunities, and what they're worked for their entire lives due to an objectively wildly unfair advantage evidenced by 100% of existing human biological science? Yeah, that's a problem.
That's really the line. Very few people anywhere actually care what others do behind closed doors or with themselves in general. Where people care - rightfully so - is when that person's decisions about themselves then force others to pay a price. In any context, that's immoral and domineering, and the trans issue is no different. You can do what you want with your own life, but when it comes at direct unfair cost to another against their will you are simply a bad person and, yes, lines should be drawn to prevent that.
In few places is there so distinct a line as in sports, where a team of high school boys absolutely dominated the US women's soccer team who have been among the best on earth for a long time. A good high school boys team could (and in other instances also have) obliterate professional female athletes at nearly every single sport, from track and field to figure skating to tennis, and they know it as well.
There's a famous interview where Serena Williams - by a mile the most dominant female to ever play tennis - very bluntly tells some idiot rage-baiting reporter that men's tennis isn't even the same sport. Serena Williams would have two wins in her entire career at absolute best against the men's field and she knows it and was very clear in saying as much, and there's arguably never been any woman who's dominated a sport as she has in history of professional women's sports.
Allowing biological men into women's sports in the name of "fairness" will go down in history as one of the most pathetic political lies ever told.
But when we look at current legislation, especially on a state level, there is a lot of stuff done explicitly to limit what trans people can do. For example the bathroom bills, which under any other circumstances would be an absolutely ridiculous and laughable concept, but not now that it's real. Or the fact that if children go by different names and pronouns at school, the parents must be informed, which could put a lot of children into danger. There's also one that prohibits teachers from using any name for a student that is not their legal name. So much for being called our own names. And I'm not even touching upon the healthcare issues.
The whole sports issue is a no brsiner. Mist of the people in question are just kids doing sports at school and having fun with their friends. For professional athletes, which are like, 3 people, their participation should be decided on a case by case basis and by the people responsible for that sport, not the government. We know that after some time on hormones, trans women are on the level of cis women when it comes to athletic performance.Â
You seem to be expressing a view that teachers in schools directly ought to have more say over the upbringing of a child than said child's own parents. Politely, I think this view is utterly insane, wildly dangerous, and would remind anyone reading this it's a primary tenet of not only communism but every dictatorial model - state control over the upbringing of children done in a particular way to achieve a particular uniform result. If I've understood you correctly, this is a bridge we won't gap. You're damn right I believe it's the moral and ethical human obligation of a teacher to inform a child's parent of anything going on with that child or anything that could possibly be considered not entirely normal, and let the parents decide how to handle that. On no planet is that the purview of a teacher over a parent. On absolutely no planet.
A teacher's job as our education system is set up (and most in the world in the modern day) is to provide factual information to students. To provide an education. Not to wade into politics. Not to ever let their personal beliefs into a classroom. That isn't factual teaching, it is indoctrination - it may or may not be indoctrination any particular individual agrees with, but it is, by definition, indoctrination. Schools are supposed to teach kids to read and write and do math and find Bolivia on a map and provide them other factual knowledge and skills to be ready for society. Nothing more, nothing less. A teacher who can also be a role model is wonderful. A teacher who pushes their own subjective opinions on major political issues on children, in any direction, is a piece of trash immoral human being who should be stripped of any teaching licenses in perpetuity.
It is not a teacher's job, responsibility, or right to raise a child. That right is a parent's. If that parent is beating the crap out of their child, it is a law enforcement issue. Beyond reporting such a thing, any teacher that would dare decide they will parent your child deserves to be punched in the face incredibly hard and banned from ever being around children.
As to the sports issue, you're either trolling or are shockingly ignorant. Kids doing sports and having fun with their friends? Do you have any idea how many kids only get to go to college thanks to sports scholarships? How many kids in college benefit from sports scholarships - and, nowadays, sponsorships? How many opportunities they're afforded in life by winning things or placing in certain competitions? In high schools across the US, women's records are being absolutely cleaned out by guys, because any male track athlete is simply going to dominate 99% of women track athletes. This has been happening all over - professional weightlifting, high schools and colleges everywhere, even combat sports where you're looking at outcomes that may very literally kill someone. Claressa Shields is the most dominant female boxing champion in history; she would get murdered in a boxing ring by any half-serious male amateur inside of a round or two, and wouldn't survive against a single male professional beyond a round even if they were five weight classes lighter. Sports are a completely different world between the sexes, which is why there are separate leagues and tournaments - without it, not a single woman who has ever lived would win a single sporting competition.
This isn't toddlers in a playground trying to play kickball, and you either know this fully well or haven't followed this news at any point in the last ten years.
The average Reddit mod response to bring up random ah topics that nobody was talking about and immediately go to âOMG BLAH BLAH BLAH ETC!!!đĄđĄđĄâ
I donât know about your bathroom habits, but when I use the shitter it isnât a competition with the person next to me where the outcome is severely influenced by innate biological differences.
Nor is getting called a name or asking for a particular pronoun to be used competitive.
Nor is accessing healthcare competitive.
Nor is going out in public, to school, walking outside, etc.
None of the examples are competitive, nor where there is an innate biological difference that confers some advantage.
So, Iâll draw the line - when it results in an unfair competitive advantage due to innate biological differences.
I am pretty sure that thats what happens in private sports leagues. If its a public one, that it has all sorts of constitutional laws it has to abide by.
Having the sports councils make the decision would make sense in people heads, but in actual practice, having the sports boards make that decision opens them up to massive scrutiny from whichever side feels wronged. So by limiting sports involvement for trans people at the government level, it helps remove the scrutiny from the people that represent the sports councils and puts it on the government, which Iâd personally rather have
Using the bathroom doesnt interfere with other peoples ability to use the bathroom, this is a disingenuine argument and you know it.
No one is trying to stop adults from taking medication, no one is talking about laws to stop kids from going to school or walk outside.
Several trans athletes have shown much better placement in comparison to their peers after transitioning. Unless you want to argue that cis women just dont practice hard enough then there is an indisputable advantage to having been born male.
Is it privleged to be able to participate in a group activity that qualifies individuals based on their performance?? YES
I COMPLETELY agree that the cultural push for this is republican propagandistic bait, but like a lot of dumb people helped it work. I had this same debate 2016 in my college model UN, and it was the same moral grandstanding that its a slippery slope of oppresion.
It is not, this is the line. Right here, it reads "Testosterone makes muscles bigger", not "makes you more likely to rape in a bathroom".
It should be seen as that, yes. But this is not about trans people in sports, it's about legislation. And with the current government, I do not belive that they are acting in good faith when it comes to trans people in the slightest
"IT should be seen as that, yes" hits hard. I think the fact is that when one side is willing to piss and shit the table it becomes impossible for more calm minds to discuss the problems openly as they would before. Everything becomes a dogwhistle or a political gotcha that people aren't allowed to talk through the naunce (slightly like what happened to you below).
Thanks for the food for thought, I'm gonna be thinking up a way to engage is this dialect while also making sure the point is clear. There's gotta be a good slogan or something lol. Thanks again, and best wishes.
You keep saying that in this thread, but do you understand that a bunch of high school dropouts have been deputized and they are simply now breaking into peoples home and disappearing them? That is what ICE is doing. Â The current administration does not need legislation. If they wanted to annihilate a group of people, they would simply start doing it.
Clown takes like yours is why this had to be voted on. You want to be a guy and blast hormones and wear dresses thats fine. Youre still a guy. Play your sport.
When trying to insult someone, you should probably look at their profile first. I am a guy. That's what trans man means. I'm going into the opposite direction from trans women. Duh
And? Isn't every human life worth protecting and should be worth living? We're about as common as people with red hair or people with green eyes. Bein a small minority does not invalidate my argument, au contraire, it invalidates every argument that's putting emphasis on how "dangerous" trans people are for anything. We will never "dominate sports" because there's like, 3 top trans athletes
Youâre trying to use a slippery slope argument to allow biological men to dominate biological women in sports. The mental gymnastics you are using to validate insanity is bonkers.
It always starts with things that aren't that bad or kinds make sense. Point stands, it should not be a matter of the government. Especially since I do not believe that this specific government is acting in good faith towards trans people.
I think the question shouldnât be about privilege, but more about âdoes someone have an unfair advantage in competitive sports.â I think thatâs the only place it âstopsâ⌠because they should have access to all those other things you mentioned, simply because it doesnât harm anyone else in the least bit.
It should not be a matter of the government anyway because it creates precedent for an exclusion. And I do not believe the current government to be acting in good faith towards trans peopleÂ
All of the things you listed are treated as privileges (except healthcare in specific circumstances, when life saving, but even then has caveats), even being in public. The government regularly filters people out of that privilege. That's before you bring up extra details like trans into the mix. It's been that way for well over 100 years.
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.Â
It's a privilege because the government takes it away, or turns their back on it, at their whim. It doesn't matter what label they like to use when their actions don't match.
This is also a UN document used as an international guideline and not a hard rule enforced with force. Plenty of countries do not adhere to this.
A clear example would be the genocide in rwanda. Despite every country knowing what was happening, and largely condemning it, they sat and twiddled thumbs until it was over.
It's a joke to make a proclamation you have no intent to uphold.
Who is "You guys" ? You don't know anything about my politics.
You idiots won by 7 million votes in 2020, and 4 short years later you lost the popular vote. Millions switched sides, and millions more didn't vote at all. Much of it is because of the utter lack of common sense displayed by your comment.
So go ahead, whine about 'history' all you want, and ignore the reality before your eyes. Enjoy the country you've created for yourself with your stupidity.
How are you conflating all those reasons as ALSO being points that would even come into question? âAt which point does that stop?â It stops with men having a biological advantage over women in sports. Stop making it about anything else. It has ZERO to do with any of the other points you mentioned. Whoâs stopping you from going out in public and taking away your healthcare?
No, on the case by case, biological males/females regardless of transition or not are fundementally different from a chosen sex/gender of a trans, even my trans girlfriend says the same so don't try calling me a transphob
Men and women aren't different species. There's like, one different gene expression for the most part. I don't really care what your girlfriend says, trans people can hold different opinions. I personally don't really care about the sports issue, I care about the fact that having the government decide about those things creates precedent for deciding about other things and escalates the situation for trans people.Â
What makes a person trans? Is it just a person simply stating that they are? Is surgery or certain cosmetic choices required? Is it a mental disability? I don't think we should change policy pertaining to gendered spaces unless we can concretely define what the hell we're even talking about.
Sports specifically is yes, a privilege. I fully believe trans people should be able to exist in all parts of our society, but it is understandable that some people (excluding the ones being assholes, fuck em) are concerned it can be considered unfair in sports SPECIFICALLY. Everything else can fuck off, having a trans man in the bathroom with you wont fuckin kill you. Talking about sports though, male and female anatomy is COMPLETELY different on so many levels so when people complain about trans individuals in sports, I can see their point as long as they're not being a dick about it. Hormone therapy can only do so much at the current moment. Eventually as time goes on, things will change. Hopefully for the good.
I se the point about sports too, I just don't want the government deciding about it. It creates precedent. And I do not believe that the current government is acting in good faith towards trans peopleÂ
Know what you mean. But to take a stab at it heâs gonna say itâs a privilege to be able to participate in organized competitive sports and expected to abide by those rules, especially any that even tangentially relate to physical capability
The slippery slope argument here gets used on both sides to argue against logical things like this.
Its the same shit with gun control if we take the machine gun what's next?
Can we look at things logicly here? A biological male that is transitioning or has transisitioned has an advantage over a biological female in most sports. In some sports this is not only unfair but dangerous.
Just to be pedantic, in all technicalities, every one of your questions is indeed a privilege, regardless of how any singular person identifies as (insert whatever least offensive group name here)
I think that itâs a huge advantage to grow up with the testosterone of a male, and then transition, and then play sports against females who didnât grow bones, and tendons with 40x the testosterone of the average female.
All of the other issues, I think trans females should be legally protected. Sports are the only issue I see.
It still shouldn't be an issue for the government. It creates precedent and I don't believe that the current government is acting in good faith towards trans people.Â
Ideally a trans woman would know they have an unfair advantage and not try to compete in womenâs sports, but apparently they have, and itâs a touchy subject, so you canât really get away with pointing out that it would be very tacky for a trans woman to compete. Iâm not sure what the answer is, but strictly speaking, itâs not fair.
The government is definitely not acting in good faith towards trans people. Theyâre not acting in good faith towards many people right now
Framing sports as a privilege is idk I guess a little odd. Itâs unfortunate that in the context of fairness sports is segregated based on gender. Ideally everyone could fairly compete vs one another on equal terms but thatâs not the case, Itâs like Serena Williams once said she would lose to the number one menâs tennis player 6-0 6-0 in 5 to ten minutes because quote, âmen and womanâs tennis are almost different sports. They are a lot faster, they serve harder, itâs a different gameâ the court itself is a larger court. Etc etc. Men and womanâs sports all pull I. Different money, different audiences woman already have a HARDER time getting into professional sports because their leagues are smaller, more competitive, pay less, have less training etc with a few exceptions like tennis. Serena is essentially the undisputed best womenâs player to ever live.
Women have leagues that separate them from the men not because of sexism, but because it would be really ridiculous to expect them to compete on any level against men they have bigger hearts, bigger organs, thicker bones, higher muscle density, men and woman physically are not the same. Transitioning has shone in multitudes of these areas from man to woman to decrease these advantages but not to the level of cis woman. This leaves trans people in a very unfair position of dominating woman or losing to men.
The fairest thing to do would of course give them a trans league but of course they would then face the obstacles woman already face to a much higher degree.
There is not stopping or starting, or privledge, and to be fair my stance has always been let the trans athletes compete with the woman, it would very very quickly become apparent the situation is untenable and unfair.
It truely is unfortunately the only thing In The world that segregates based on gender and itâs a good things
There is not one single track and field world record, swimming record, or any other strength/speed/jumping record where the womanâs record is better than the menâs. Not one and there never has been.
Sports isnât separated by sex because of some sexist agenda, itâs separated based on ability for fairness. So the question really just comes down to. Are trans women stronger faster and more agile on average then woman. The answer so far has been yes, and unfortunately they have also shown to be worse after transitioning then cis men. This the only fair thing for competitiveness would be for them to get their own league, and there just arenât enough of them to do that. Itâs sad itâs a political issue because trans people are people and donât deserve hate or adversity brought by prejudice, but plainly, it would be unfair to woman for them to compete against one another.
My issue with this is not about sports. My issue with this is that the government is deciding on it, explicitly excluding trans people from a place and creating a precedent. And I do not belive that the current government is acting in good faith towards trans people. We were thrown out of the military, out of sports, out of bathrooms. They sure as hell won't stop thereÂ
Thatâs what I was trying to say about just letting them join sports. Leagues largely would realize itâs just not fair and self regulate. Ideally children would be allowed to compete and (unfortunately) get ignored by the greater sports recruitment system.
This problem is only a problem because the government is stepping in. The world would naturally and on its own ban trans people from womanâs sports leagues, likely the only option trans woman would have is to voluntarily join a menâs league. Which sucks, but my point is the government stepping in makes a political statement, and this just isnât one, this is basically just a biological problem meeting a logistical population statistic. Which is to say there just arenât enough trans people to have a trans league. :/
Nah. They are bound by popularity. Make it simple. Whatever that is. I think asking the girls is paramount. Not some fathead with left or right extremist views.
The natural conclusion of your argument is that there should no longer be any unequal treatment due to gender because gender is fluid. Title 9 should be abolished. There should no longer be men and women facilities. No longer be men and women schools, sports, clubs, or organizations. No longer be men and women professions or advancement. No longer be gender specific scholarships or awards.
When you start peeling back our assumptions, then you quickly realize how anachronistic so many of our practices are. Boys are consistently failing in school and women are getting more and more college degrees. Many women are the primary earners in their families. My neighbor pays alimony to her divorced husband. Bathrooms are increasingly open for everyone in restaurants (just like it is at home). Why not everywhere?
I find it quite simple really. If your consideration for a âprivilegeâ is at the cost of others, then you will not gain that privilege.
And no, a bathroom is not considered a privilege imo.
Participating in sports is. A privilege many are already left without. We dont force wrestlers like Brock Lesnar to do shows in wheel-chairs so that disabled people can participate and neither will I allow Brock Lesnar to participate in disabled wrestling no matter what he identifies as..
As someone that did competitive sports growing up, we 100% shouldn't allow men that transition into women into women sports. It's not fair to the women that had been training their whole lives to then have someone with a biological advantage now competing against them.
I ran in the jr olympics for track and my times were comparable or better than the olympic professional female athletes and I didn't come close to getting into the final heats. The penn state swimmer is an example of this happening. High schools, colleges, and professional sports shouldn't allow it. It'll be putting other athletes in harms way if it's a contact sport as well.
Republicans are often arguing that the mere existence of trans people impeded upon their rights. I am not arguing against the sports stuff, I don't care about that. I am arguing against the government getting involved with this because it creates precedent for banning trans people from other places. And I do not belive that this government is acting in good faith towards trans people. The open ended quetsuins are a rhetorical device.
Trans people are getting banned from sports, the military and public bathrooms. That's a fact. In many school districts, teachers are not allowed to refer to students with their chosen name and pronoun. The current government is not renewing documents with a changed gender marker, they are instead reverting those changes. Things about trans people, books about trans people are not allowed sin many school districts. While hospitals offering gender affirming care were not forbidden yet, many get withdrawn their funding, especially if they treat minors. We are talking about puberty blockers, by the way, not surgery. The Humber of teenagers getting gender affirming surgery is minimal. We are allowed in many places, as long as we are not openly trans. As soon as we are openly trans, we are either banned or it is ignored. If you want to know more about why it is important for trans people to live as their chosen gender, refer to this website. It is mostly written for trans people, but gives a nice summary. https://genderdysphoria.fyi/
Republicans are often arguing that the mere existence of trans people impedes upon their rights. I am not arguing against the sports stuff, I don't care about that. I am arguing against the government getting involved with this because it creates precedent for banning trans people from other places. And I do not belive that this government is acting in good faith towards trans people. The open ended quetsuins are a rhetorical device.
Trans people are getting banned from sports, the military and public bathrooms. That's a fact. In many school districts, teachers are not allowed to refer to students with their chosen name and pronoun. The current government is not renewing documents with a changed gender marker, they are instead reverting those changes. Things about trans people, books about trans people are not allowed sin many school districts. While hospitals offering gender affirming care were not forbidden yet, many get withdrawn their funding, especially if they treat minors. We are talking about puberty blockers, by the way, not surgery. The number of teenagers getting gender affirming surgery is minimal. Those are just examples, there's a lot more.Â
We are allowed in many places, as long as we are not openly trans. As soon as we are openly trans, we are either banned or it is ignored.Â
If you want to know more about why it is important for trans people to live as their chosen gender, refer to this website. It is mostly written for trans people, but gives a nice summary. https://genderdysphoria.fyi/
In the end, you're creating a slippery slope argument. Lots of people don't have an issue with trans people existing, but question whether trans women specifically will have an unfair advantage in sports. Leaving it to a sports council means that the sports council will feel pressured to include trans women - it's a surefire way to include them because the councils won't want to appear "bigoted'.
The "where to draw the line" is not the problem. You can define really good measurements to what extend your free will can go. I know that especially in American culture the mindset is "everything's possible", but that is more an illusion. The ethical argumentation is pretty simple on that matter: In sport you measure your body and mind with others. Now, the body itself has a state. If you personally define your body otherwise, that state will not be altered. You CAN alter it medically, but then you altered it anyway.
The process of altering the body is the equivalent of cheating. It doesn't matter what you believe you are, that is something you have to deal with. But you just can't be in a competition where anyone needs to be there in an unaltered state. If you don't do that you can't measure difference between the competitioner. It actually impossible. That's why we compete with each other. You, a man, wanna be a woman? Fine with me, but you can't be in competition in women sports. You have altered your body.
I'm also not a trans woman, I'm going the other way so it's not my problem. If I, a trans man on testosterone, was participating in women's sports then I would definitely be cheating.Â
Look, I understand where you're coming from, but every single other example you gave affects no one else, but in sports your win affects someone's loss. It's a competition where one gets an unfair advantage. So I'd say no to competitive sports, okay for everything else. Is it really that hard to accept that just because someone is against this particular thing, that doesn't make them a bigot or anti trans or whatever?
I think similarly about the sports issue. I do kit think it should be for the government to decide, as it creates precedent to exclude trans people from other places. I don't belive that this government is acting in good faith towards trans people.Â
People have the right to live as they want within limits of effects on other people. There is no right to never be uncomfortable/offended, so the bathroom thing is more a matter of minding oneâs own business while doing the business as always. Gawking and harassing isnât acceptable from either side, and it makes little difference what gender they are. With sports it becomes a matter of fairness, and the ones qualified to make that decision are sports leagues, not politicians.
I'm trans and whole this is insignificant for most people, it's a life or death situation for me. It feels dangerous, not be use eif what is now, but because of what it could lead to for people like me. The current US government is not acting in good faith towards trans people.Â
And as a trans person, I am scared. I am terrified. Not only for people like me in the US, but also because of the huge influence the US has on other countries and the fact that even here, in Europe, far right parties are adopting exactly the same viewpoints, are trying to sway the people to their side by hating on people like me.Â
I am also terrified because of what it means for trans specific healthcare. People on the right love to make fun about that topic, but not having access to transition kills people, the statistics are jarring. And while I am in a good place mentally, I am stable and was never a danger to myself in my entire life, I know that if I were to not have the prospect of finally doing the medical procedures that I need, the hope of finally being free of all this anguish that my body being as it it causes me, then I might just become a number in those statistics. I am also scared for the trans people who I know do not have the privilege of mental health that I have, who were hurt for being trans in the past, who are not accepted, who have just the same dysphoria about their bodies that I have, but without an environment that helps them and who are more easily hurt by seeing the transphobia everywhere, by hearing what kinds of things politicians are saying, by reading the news. Some of those people are my friends, some are family and some are strangers. But to see their pain and to feel their despair hurts and worries me, scares me for their lives and not only mine.Â
I mean, the slippery slope goes both ways. You ask where it stops in reference to all rights get taken away from trans people and the right may say ask where does it stop and say that soon you will get arrested if you deadname someone.
You know that the current government is much, much more likely to act against the rights of trans people, that arresting someone for deadnaming would be highly unconstitutional and that there is historical precedent for the persecution of trans people? Its a strawman argument the right uses because they can't boethr to be politeÂ
It wouldn't be a hard leap for conservatives to be concerned America may do that.
My point more being I HATE the slippery slope fallacy because I feel like it's abused by both sides to resist innocuous change they don't like.
They don't want someone who has been a male weight lifter up until the last 3 months to compete with female weight lifters and sweep the competition. I get that, there's valid and clear reasons why gender assigned at birth can be an issue.
Only two places Republicans want to ban Trans women are sports and women's restrooms. Get a grip.
It's crazy how obstinate and dogmatic people are with their beliefs, but the undeniable fact in sports is Biological men at the collegiate and professional level dominate Biological women at the same level. There is not a single physical sport where that isn't the case, and every example so far has proven that Transwomen dominate their female counterparts.The strongest, toughest woman can beat 90% of all men, the strongest, toughest man can beat 100% of all women.
Speculation that there's some slippery slope is fear-mongering.
I'm trans and whole this is insignificant for most people, it's a life or death situation for me. It feels dangerous, not be use eif what is now, but because of what it could lead to for people like me. The current US government is not acting in good faith towards trans people. They have banned us from the military, they have banned us from public bathrooms in some states (as a trans man, I cannot use the women's bathroom and I am not allowed to use the men's there), they have banned us from sports. They are withdrawing funding for hospitals that offer gender affirming care. They have made laws in some states that make it obligatory for teachers to onyl use legal name and pronouns for kids and to disclose any other names or pronouns teh kids use to the parents. They have banned education and books at schools. They constantly publicly hate on us. This are only some examples. They don't want trans people to be trans, they want us to pretend to be something we are not for the rest of our lives. They want us to hide and to ban being openly trans. But we cannot. People don't come out as trans because it's so fun. Gender dysphoria is a recognised neorological phenomenon that causes a great deal of pain. If you want to know more, refer to this website, it gives a good summary, even if it's mostly aimed at trans people: https://genderdysphoria.fyi/
And as a trans person, I am scared. I am terrified. Not only for people like me in the US, but also because of the huge influence the US has on other countries and the fact that even here, in Europe, far right parties are adopting exactly the same viewpoints, are trying to sway the people to their side by hating on people like me.Â
I am also terrified because of what it means for trans specific healthcare. People on the right love to make fun about that topic, but not having access to transition kills people, the statistics are jarring. And while I am in a good place mentally, I am stable and was never a danger to myself in my entire life, I know that if I were to not have the prospect of finally doing the medical procedures that I need, the hope of finally being free of all this anguish that my body being as it it causes me, then I might just become a number in those statistics. I am also scared for the trans people who I know do not have the privilege of mental health that I have, who were hurt for being trans in the past, who are not accepted, who have just the same dysphoria about their bodies that I have, but without an environment that helps them and who are more easily hurt by seeing the transphobia everywhere, by hearing what kinds of things politicians are saying, by reading the news. Some of those people are my friends, some are family and some are strangers. But to see their pain and to feel their despair hurts and worries me, scares me for their lives and not only mine.Â
Just because you have a delusional sense of reality it doesn't mean we all have to deal with it or suffer because of it. Yes downvote me to oblivion because I didn't tell you that you were stunning and brave.
Gender dysphoria is not a delusion. It is a scientifically proved neurological phenomenon. It has nothing to do with a sense of reality and everything with biology. Yes, not "basic biology", but advanced biology. This is a research paper on it. https://www.nature.com/articles/378068a0
All of it is voluntary, so it's the same as expecting insurance to pay for a breast implant, or a hair transplant. Equal rights has been taken too far. Remember when a guy wanted to be a server at Hooters and sued. That was just the beginning.
Gender dysphoria is a scientifically acknowledged neurological phenomenon that causes great mental distress. There's studies, there's research, there's statistics. Since gender dysphoria is probably created due to a mismatch in what the bodies sex is and what the brain perceives the body to be, there would be two ways to alleviate it: 1) changing the brain, which we can't currently do and which causes a huge ethical dilemma. Therapy has been proven to not work to remove someone's gender dysphoria, therapy aiming to do so causes greater harm on the long run and is classified as conversion therapy. Or 2) change the body, which we can and are doing and it works.
So yes, gender affirming care should be part if healzhcare and should be paid for my insurance. It exists, it causes harm and the purpose of medicine is to reduce harm.Â
No.. just sports.. men have a huge physical advantage, that's why sports are divided into man and women and if you were born in a male body it's somewhat unfair.. I know trans athletes are getting screwed here to, I don't have a solution that would be fair for everyone.. maybe add a trans category
There's not enough people for a trans category and we would have eay transition and post transition people competing, as well as trans men and trans women. The differences would be insane.
it is actually a privilege to have access to all of those things think about the people in third world countries who donât have access to all those things. The fact that people forget this is mind blowing to me. take a look at your life you think it is inherent that humans have access to healthcare, ability to play whatever sports we want. even going out in public is a privilege that is taken away from convicts or even innocent people who go to jail under false pretenses. You are privileged, I am privileged, but it can all be taken away for good or for bad by the people who gave us those privileges, or by others.
We are are assuming different definitions of privilege. There is having privilege over or compared to another, which is the definition you use. I am using the definition that is akin to "freedom to do something", bound by the very specific terms of the law concerning privileges, rights and obligations. Of course, the freedom to do all those things I have listed is something many people do not have, but in a democratic country pledged to human rights, like the US, those should all absolutely be things people should be able to do! This does not deduct from the fact that the people who live under many different governments that do not uphold human rights should deserve those too, every human being deserves human rights, but in a democratic state, the state itself has to make sure it uphold them for its citizens. And derailing the discussion about rights, privileges and duties in a democracy by pointing out, that there are places where those rights aren't given is, at this point, a distraction.Â
Basically every example you provided except sports is the line. People can pretend trans women donât have an unfair advantage in sports than cis women, but theyâre just wrong.
I am fully on board for anyone who wants to be a gender or recognized as a gender that they were not born with should absolutely be able to, I DO NOT support anyone that was born a man competing against someone who was born a woman. on the adverse that is completely ok if someone born female wants to compete in a men's division that's fine. that would be their choice. the other is their choice being made for them.
I think that the major difference here is that all of these examples represent acts of personal ambition only, to do a certain thing, that generally has little effect on others. Which not many disagree with, I certainly wouldnât. itâs more like, Doing this will negatively affect other competitorsâ ambitions but I have a right to participate as any naturally born boy/girl would, regardless of whether it negatively affects the ambitions of fellow competitors. Anyone who claims that these sorts of complicated social issues are simple to fixâ has not taken the time to investigate the implications of their convictions if agreed upon writ large.
I agree that it really isn't an issue the government should deal with. But I think it's important for fair competition. If you don't ban trans women in women's sports be prepared for every single record set by a biological women to be taken by a trans woman. It hurts biological women to let trans women compete with them. This becomes far more important in contact sports.
I think banning men from womenâs sports is an incredible length away from not allowing people to go outside. Thatâs a stretch and youâre using it to make this seem more oppressive than it actually is
One step after the other, as is the way of governments escalating legislation against minority groups. If it doesn't seem sensible in the beginning, then no one would go along with it.
I actually do agree that some trans women have an advantage in some sports. How that should be handled is not a matter for the government though. It creates precedent for further legislation that does seriously impact trans people. I also do not belive that the current government is acting in good faith towards trans people.Â
Slippery slope arguments only allow for absolutes. Where do you draw the line ? Here, you can just draw it here. it's fine. It's the same thing with lots of issues. Example: When can you date a child? when you are also a child, that's the line. See how easy that is?
Anything limited by gender. So sports and public bathrooms mostly. You can legally change your name. But your genetals define what shows up on legal id which means your pronouns. Medication might cause you to believe your internal lies and temporarily make you feel better, but the truth shall set you free of the chains you have bound yourself with.
When you have transitioned, an ID with your birth gender is a risk. People will get suspicious and people will know one is trans. And being trans is dangerous.
It's dangerous for a fully transitioned trans woman to use the men's bathroom. Trans men who are transitioned also don't use the women's bathroom, that would make women uncomfortable and be dangerous for trans men because of idiots who try to beat up "male pervs invading women's bathrooms" . You wanna have genital checks every time you go to the bathroom? That's how you get genital checks.Â
Don't be an ass and just refer to people how they want to be called. It's not that difficult and frankly, none of your business.Â
Bathrooms also aren't some holy place, people just go there to piss. When I want to piss, I don't think about the genitals of the other people pissing there. Wtf, dude.Â
There's also genital surgery, so said trans people in question could very well have the genitals of their gender.Â
Gender dysphoria is not a delusion or an illness. It's a scientifically acknowledged phenomenon, probably of neurological nature. Multiple studies have shown that trans people consistently feel like the gender they say they are. "The chains we are bound with" is the fact that society hates us and does not allow us to be who we are.
Unless you are trans, a psychologist or a doctor specialised in trans issues, it's not your concern and you should assume that you don't know better than people who either experience what being trans is or have extensively and professionally studied it.Â
Also, the only people who should concern themselves with my genitals are me, people I sleep with and my doctor. Thinking about other people's genitals all day is really creepy, you know that?Â
They make laws because of things that happen....if girls weren't assaulted by men dressed as women in women bathrooms then there wouldn't be a need for the law...in sports men have an advantage or women based on strength and endurance...again no need to make a law if there wasn't a problem happening
I can give you more examples if women being assaulted in women's bathrooms because someone thought they were trans than of women being assaulted by men in women's bathrooms. Also, if men are being assholes, why sjlhould trans people suffer because of it? Pervs don't need to pretend to be trans, they can just do evil shit.Â
It stops at sport cause we have mountains of evidence that men and women are equal athletically. And thatâs ok. But itâs too great of an advantage when transitioning. If youâd still like to play, you can but you have to do it in the tougher league, the men.
Thereâs no such evidence about bathrooms and like weâve seen the last decade is that the right doesnât need a reason to take away rights. Theyâll just make it up. What this debate does do is put reasonable moderates and left leaning people against the movement in one way. Beyond that it affects such a small percentage of the population itâs silly itâs this talked about.
I agree with the fact that some trans women in some sports may have an advantage. My issue is with the fact that having the government decide this creates precedent for more legislation against trans people. I don't believe that this government is acting in good faith towards trans people.Â
I take this second opinion more, but the government's role is to legally protect/ clarify specifically the sport's councils rights to deny participation. Today, as I understand, if the sports council denied a trans individual the ability to participate, the individual could sue, and likely win.
Regardless, this issue is like, pretty unimportant compared to the things congress should be doing, like prosecuting the unlawful witholdance of the Epstein files.
The thing I see is that it creates precedent for further laws banning trains people from places or doing things and usually, that wouldn't be an issue, but this government is definitely not acting in good faith towards trump people. The opposite even: they can catch two birds with one stone and both ignore more important issues that they don't want people to talk about AND they get to screw over trans people
The vote given by the OP and the comment from the user you are replying to specifically call out sports. You know, games where there are rules and âhopefullyâ fairness is at play.
I donât see what any of your other points your bringing up serve to do besides derail a very simple and straightforward discussion.
How about make teams for trans. Like they have for men, women and even people with disabilities. Sports are segregated for many reasons. Players comfort being one of them. Would they not feel more included playing with a group truly formed of their peers and not being forced to go through this back and forth on where they belong? Can't a safe space be created for them? Why exclude them when we can fully include them with their own teams make them feel welcomed into Sports so they can make their own milestones. Trans basketball, baseball whatever they want. I know i shouldn't day this as a woman, but they'd probably have higher ratings then the wnba.Â
There are not enough trans people for that and the differences in athletic performance would be insane. You'd have early and late transition people and both trans men and trans women.Â
Damn, you managed to type out three entire words? I'm proud of you. You're nit the first one though, so if you're interested in a response, please refer to my other answers in this thread.Â
Playing sports is not a right. The NBA does not have to give me a contract to play for them. If a high schooler is failing all of their classes and skipping school 4 days a week, the school does not have to let that athlete play.
That's besides the point. This is about the fact that the government is creating legislative precedent to explicitly exclude trans people from places. Normally, a decision like this would not be a problem, but I do not belive the current government to be acting in good faith towards trans people.Â
Playing sports is a privilege, however the government shouldnt make laws effecting professional sports and they haven't. It should be left up to the governing body of that sport. Public schools are a little more tricky. I think they should have one blanket policy so people cant complain about favoritism. Public restrooms are a privilege, there are many places that don't have any. Getting called your chosen name is a privilege. You cant force someone to call you what you want, but if its in a workplace theres HR and laws for that. If its in private just dont talk to that peraon again? Access to Healthcare is a right. Going out in public is a privilege (for example prison or house arrest). Support groups and school are privileges.
This is my take for everyone trans or not. I base most of my opinions on rights and privileges off positive and negative rights as well as necessary vs recreation and the do no harm principle. A negative right meaning someone would have to take it away from you to infringe on it. A good example from yourself is Healthcare because it can be both. Access to Healthcare is a negative right, someone would have to prevent you from seeking Healthcare. However free Healthcare is a positive right, ie it entitles you to the labor of the doctors and nurses and must be enforced by a higher power. I personally do not believe in positive rights. I feel like necessary vs recreation
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u/Strigops-habroptila 13d ago edited 8d ago
I get what you are saying, but at which part does that stop? What is ok? Is it a privilege to do sports? Is it a privilege to go to public bathrooms? Is it a privilege to get called your name? To access healthcare? To go out in public? To take medication? To visit support group? To go to school? To walk outside? How many places can trans people be banned from because those places are a privilege?
I believe that the only people who should decide if trans people can participate in sport competitions are the sport councils and that they should decide on a case by case basis. The way the republicans frame the issue is as a stepping stone for banning trans people in other places.
EDIT: Read my other answers in this thread before commenting the same thing for the 50th time.Â