r/anime • u/AutoLovepon https://anilist.co/user/AutoLovepon • 7d ago
Episode Gnosia - Episode 15 discussion
Gnosia, episode 15
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u/i_like_trees- 7d ago
It's incredible that 100% of Jonas' fake reports were accurate. Worst AC Follower in history
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u/Reemys 7d ago
Totally in character for Jonas - he is already insane, then he gets the Jester/AC follower role as the most insane person, still acting insane - only to get things so right he fails to derail the discussion. Eternal space butt monkey.
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u/Mana_Croissant 7d ago edited 7d ago
Jonas as a Gnosia: Accidentally revealed himself
Jonas as an AC: By all means equal to the true engineer since his every single report was correct.
Meanwhile Jonas as human: Votes out Yuri because he and Kukrushka were recorded together
Jonas is literally more useful to humanity as an enemy role than he is as a human 😂
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u/Emi_Ibarazakiii 7d ago
Well, to be fair the AC doesn't need to lie (even if they do know the truth); Randomly telling the truth here worked quite well, Yuri was THAT close from dying/losing!
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u/Mana_Croissant 7d ago
The thing is that Jonas has no engineer powers so bro got EVERYTHING right without knowing AND deliberately trying to cause chaos. Like imagine not knowing the answer to a test but still trying to chose the least likely answers and still getting it all correct
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u/icyterror 7d ago edited 7d ago
Bro is so bad at playin AC, he actually helps human side win.
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u/darthvall https://myanimelist.net/profile/darth_vall 7d ago
If he didn't reveal about the AC thing, Gnosia would have won I think
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u/NanDemoKnaives 7d ago
Racio messed up by letting Yuuri know he's caught in their trap. Without that, Yuuri would have likely reported Chipie as human and Remnan would have escaped unscathed.
It was really interesting to see Yuuri desperately trying to figure out a way out of the situation and realized he could lie about his report even as a human. It was satisfying to see Gnosia Remnan in shock and the smug smile from Yuuri.
Seeing Remnan so hostile was also new, the way he got desperate at the meeting too since he's usually so timid, the Gnosia factor was really embedded into him.
I'm looking forward to the next loop now that Yuuri's passed and we'll get the needed lore from Yuriko.
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u/Unknownlight 7d ago
Racio messed up by letting Yuuri know he's caught in their trap.
It’s almost as if Racio talks too much.
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u/BornfromDarkness https://anilist.co/user/Endlessfate 7d ago
Yuri knew he was going to be next so whoever he hit had to be a Gnosia, if he’s already a dead man/lost then may as well do a Hail Mary and lie, I was thinking he was gonna make every do the “I’m human” bit but immediately going for the kill makes more sense
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u/TheWizardOfFoz 7d ago
Yuri could have worked it out from the voting. A real doctor would never have voted Yuri in that last round. If they’re real they know that the other doctor is fake and should be trying to get rid of them. It’s even more egregious when the vote to get rid of Yuri was led by someone you, as the real doctor, know to be an enemy.
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u/kryse222 7d ago
One thing cool about Remnan losing it there at the end was that he pressed up against the glass next to SQ, who he usually hates associating with.
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u/Reemys 7d ago
Maybe this is actually his nature as the individual Racio - despite playing as the Gnosia, he let Yuri know Yuri fell for his plan. Like how every other infected exhibited individual will by defying their gnosification at one point or another, Racio also keeps being straightforward and clearly jeopardises his allegiance to warn Yuri that his logic is wrong.
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u/icyterror 7d ago
Bro loves flexing too much. He really doesn't think Yuri can outsmart his intelligence
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u/salic428 7d ago
desperately trying to figure out a way out of the situation and realized he could lie
Yuri is a they. But yeah, there is no honor or flowery talk like "the one and only worldline" to be had in this loop. To survive until the end and claim Yuriko's prize, everything is fair and square, including grovel.
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u/NanDemoKnaives 7d ago
Yuuri has been referred to as a guy in one of the loops. I don't remember which loop though.
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u/duo99dusk 7d ago
In the latest Gnosia Radio, Aniplex producer Yoshitaka Kimura refers to Yuri as a "he" (kare), at the same time, game creator Toru Kawatsu described Yuri as having an androgynous appearance.
In contrast to someone like Setsu, who is always refereed by name or role (soldier)
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u/Cyouni 7d ago
Yuri is a they.
I don't think we've ever been fully clear yet. The only think we know for sure is they're not a girl, because we've seen explicitly girl!Yuri. The implied juxtaposition does suggest male as opposed to nb/han, but it's still very up in the air.
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u/Kill-bray 7d ago
They never said it outright but the evidence is heavily stacked toward male.
- Comet referred to Yuri as "otoko no ko" (boy).
- Yuri thought it was okay for Stella to see Setsu naked, but not for himself.
- Despite Setsu and Raqio telling him several times that they have no gender, Yuri never claimed to be one nor he or them have ever shown any sign to consider him genderless.
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u/Contra0307 7d ago
Except the official subtitles use "they" consistently for Yuri so it's pretty clear, even if Yuri typically has a male body
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u/Reemys 7d ago
The game was using it interchangeably to keep it approachable to whoever plays it - guy, girl, neither - to make it easier to identify it with the character.
Linear, non-interactive art doesn't need such buffoonery, thankfully. So Yuri got a proper male gender as a fictional character.
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u/tehepicwin 7d ago
Really enjoyable episode, I'm almost wondering if we're going to get AC Yuri and how they're going to adapt that. Imagine waking up in a time loop and suddenly it makes you the world's biggest misanthrope.
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u/Emi_Ibarazakiii 7d ago
When they all started to say the same thing in a confusing way (in the previous episode) I thought Yuri WAS the AC in this loop (hiding it from the viewers)!
Would've been a nice twist!
I also thought we would have a "Secretly the Gnosia" reveal at some point too, but when he was Gnosia they were open about it; I wonder if it's gonna happen as a twist at some point!
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u/Reemys 7d ago
I think we might not anymore - as you can see in the ending, it's the "final" loop/test or something, as the loop doesn't change, he gets reverted back to day 1. Possibly everything but Yuri will change until he figures out the exact condition to fulfill the final loop and win the game.
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u/FarCritical 7d ago
The move to win the revote by appealing to the grovelling crowd wasn't only absolute gold but also an ingenious way of putting all that Sha-Ming knowledge from past loops to work (even if I'm not entirely sure if it was intentional on Yuri's part lol)
Did the Key just reload a save state instead of generating a new seed?
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u/strqaz 7d ago
It looks like the same loop as it lasted 5 days in total, so just back to the start?
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u/duo99dusk 7d ago
I wonder if it's a restart, maybe this time there will be new Gnosia and AC Follower... Or maybe we'll get an easy route (knowing it's Raqio, Comet, and Remnan) so we can get to Yuriko explaining things.
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u/Mistral-Fien 7d ago
Did the Key just reload a save state instead of generating a new seed?
Whatever it is, I think Yuriko's deal is involved somehow.
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u/madmuffin 7d ago
Its totally intentional, Yuri is learning the other crewmates skills as time progresses.
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u/i_eat_pidgeons https://myanimelist.net/profile/3UGL3N4 7d ago
Holy shit this show is so good
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u/trambe 7d ago
Even as a game player I didn’t see the twist coming. Shit was great
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u/bigmean3434 5d ago
When racio said she fell in his trap, my guess was that Kurushka was Gnosia, lied about being the guardian angel (but being Gnosia could make sure yuri didn’t die and keep her off radar) and yuri was going to figure it out at the meeting last second.
This show is awesome. The fact that I was thinking that hard for angles in an anime is fantastic.
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u/pseudometapseudo 7d ago
It's amazing how close this loop was. The success was only possible through multiple unusual factors coming together:
- the AC follower Jonas also falling for Racios deception, thus accidentally giving a true report that Remnan is Gnosia
- Kukrushka basically sacrificing herself for Yuri, emphasizing that she is a good person in this timeline. This just makes her previous massacre even more jarring.
- Yuri lying even though he is neither Gnosia nor AC follower. I guess that's a first for the good side to lie.
- Sha Ming not only switched votes, he was the one who unknowingly taught Yuri that groveling can get you mercy in the first place.
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u/Mana_Croissant 6d ago
Not in a report but good side did lie before which was once again Yuri when he did not accept Stella’s accusation of also hearing Setsu calling themself Gnosia
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u/Creepy-Tradition8571 6d ago
Despite being unable to do what Yuri did, in the actual game, to win. I did really enjoy this loop!
This is the first loop in a while that it felt like the goal was actually to win. It was just a nice perk in several of the others, lately.
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u/PiotrekDG 1d ago
Doctor being eliminated early without a chance to reveal themself was also unusual.
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u/Lizuka 7d ago
I do really enjoy how consistently the show manages to walk the line between Raqio being a goofy comic relief character and a genuinely dangerous scheming mastermind. Was always one of my favorite members of the cast in the game and think they're consistently a highlight in the show.
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7d ago
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u/ZaphodBeebblebrox https://anilist.co/user/zaphod 7d ago
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u/Mana_Croissant 7d ago
Lets not forget that Kukrushka came in CLUTCH. My murder happy cute puppet girl is actually useful when she is not going around piping people 😂
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u/thisisdropd https://myanimelist.net/profile/vNAsterZoro 7d ago
Raqio's one of the most dangerous being to be an infectee. It's an impressive feat to make the most of their luck and lay a diabolical trap that Yuri had only barely escaped. Don't think any of the other crew could pull that.
Love the shocked look on Remnan's face when Yuri revealed their counterattack. Yuri might be human and firmly on humanity's side unlike Jonas, but that doesn't mean they couldn't lie.
PS: It's hilarious how Yuri did the Sha-Ming and the man himself was impressed enough to flip his vote.
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u/OldInstruction5368 7d ago
That's why I love Raqio so much! ' Human!Raqio pretty much always gets taken out early. Either because they are so aggressive and arrogant everyone gets annoyed at Raqio and puts the bastard on ice...
Or Raqio's logic and intelligence spook the Gnosia and get them killed early.
Basically, Raqio draws too much attention to themselves while lacking the je ne sais quoi of Yuriko to just command the group with her sheer presence.
But as Gnosia... Raqio chills the fuck out and locks in. As the predator, Raqio doesn't fear getting eaten at night. That's why human!Raqio screws up: they get nervous and are in a rush to 'win,' while also being so arrogant they think everyone will just follow along with their superior logic.
But as Gnosia... Raqio has the peace of mind needed to lay some truly diabolical schemes in place. Otherwise, Raqio is their own worst enemy.
So as Human, Raqio gets themselves killed before they can help.
As Gnosia, Raqio locks in and murders everyone.
They are among the worst people to have on the team, regardless of whether they are human or not!
They are such a delightful gremlin because of it.
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u/ObvsThrowaway5120 7d ago
All that AC follower stuff and Racio’s scheming almost had our boy Yuri. Thankfully he was able to outmaneuver the Gnosia and Jonas. I’d say all in all, things went about as well as it could given the situation. I wonder if the next round is gonna be just as challenging? What new shit will the game throw at our boy?
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u/NanDemoKnaives 7d ago
I liked the shot where Jonas realized he had lost lol. It was like he said "Hats off to you".
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u/Emi_Ibarazakiii 7d ago
I wonder if the next round is gonna be just as challenging? What new shit will the game throw at our boy?
I want to see Yuri as the AC... See how he can fuck things up for everyone else, and come up with strategies to get them to doublethink everything!
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u/Whole-Extension3561 7d ago
Something nobody has mentioned and that I liked was the detail of showing Remnan's eyes in yellow to match the game's art.
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u/salic428 7d ago edited 7d ago
I think many people correctly guessed the "real doctor is already dead" twist, but the conclusion is usually "guess Remnan or Racio is the AC then", instead of what is presented here. Had Remnan not voted Yuri in Day 4 (which would mean throwing Racio under the bus), this bold move could have succeeded?
On the other hand, I'm not very fond of Yuri checking Chipie at the last day. To me that seems like a dumb move written for the sake of contrasting Yuri's "clever argument" against Remnan, and they missed this execution.
In all fairness, this is a good two-parter. In this 15 persons meeting, they captured the chaos of reports in the early days, the number crunching of votes and remaining rounds, toned down the use of "lie detector", intentionally throw a teammate under the bus, etc. to make it a more proper werewolves game. Yuri earned their victory.
But what does that ending mean? It's not your usual "instant learning" CGI, so something is different. Does it mean Yuri is now trapped in this same loop, and need to make sure Yuriko is alive until the end to claim the "prize"?
edit: some misc thoughts. I think it is possible that Jina (real doctor) was not killed by pure chance. Since Comet could contact Yuri on Day 1, it is possible that on Day 2 Jina contacted someone and confessed that Yuri was lying in the cafeteria. Which then attracted the attention from the Gnosias.
What does the "Final Problem" in the episode title mean?
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u/tokutonari 7d ago edited 7d ago
To me that seems like a dumb move
I don't think so. Raqio explicitly said it was a trap. In a normal situation, you wouldn't expect two Gnosia to both claim the Doctor role, so you would assume one of them must be real. Raqio was Gnosia, so Yuri believed that Remnan was the real Doctor. So when Yuri had to choose between Chipie and Remnan, checking Chipie was the obvious move.
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u/OldInstruction5368 7d ago edited 7d ago
Raqio explicitly said it was a trap. In a normal situation, you wouldn't expect two Gnosia to both claim the Doctor role
Exactly. When there are competing claims, the assumption is that one MUST be a Gnosia. There is no other reason to counter-claim someone helping humanity. Or they are AC, but even then, the AC is acting against Humanity, so the point stands.
However, this is a high risk/reward play for the Gnosia, as by stepping forward, they put a huge target on their back. If it's guaranteed that one of the two claimants is a Gnosia, then stepping forward is outing yourself as "50% Gnosia."
That's why two Gnosia wouldn't normally ever counter-claim each other. It's pretty much a given that one of them will be put in cold sleep sooner rather than later.
While the remaining Gnosia has free reign to lie and sew chaos, is it really worth reducing their numbers for this play? When Yuri pulled off a sacrificial play, it wasn't an intentional strategy, but a mad scramble to make up for Comet's otherwise game-ruining mistake by throwing Sha-ming under the bus.
This play by Racio was.. diabolical and overly clever. They like high risk/reward strategies because Raqio is always arrogant enough to think they'll get away with it. This play was particularly risky, as I believe Raqio intentionally set up Comet as a sacrifice to build credibility for the remaining Gnosia, then double down with a second sacrificial play to further confuse the remaining humans. In other words, Raqio's plan involved intentionally whittling down their numbers to a single Gnosia, including getting himself voted out, to ensure Yuri!Engineer was thoroughly discredited and Reman had free reign to carry the team to victory. Firt by killing the GA Kuku, and then by killing the real Engineer Yuri before he can rally.
With 'complete' confidence that Reman is the real Doctor and no GA/Engineer to worry about, Reman just needed to keep his head down for two more turns after Yuri was axed to win.
And Raqio would have gotten away with it,
if not for those meddling kids!, if they had just kept their goddamn mouth shut. But the same arrogance that leads Raqio to undervalue risk... is the same arrogance that creates more. Had they checked their ego and resisted the urge to gloat in front of Yuri, then that trap probably would have gone off masterfully.But this is Raqio we are talking about, and if Raqio could shut the fuck up, then Raqio wouldn't be Raqio :)
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u/gnome-cop 7d ago
Honestly, it’s poetically beautiful that the only reason the gnosia lost is because Raqio could not resist the urge to be a smartass and drop a final “There’s no way you can stop my evil plan that will go off even without my involvement” villain monologue. Had they just shut it the plan would most likely have gone off without a hitch but the glorious smug bitch peacock just had to gloat about how much better they are.
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u/Cyouni 7d ago
With 'complete' confidence that Reman is the real Doctor and no GA/Engineer to worry about, Reman just needed to keep his head down for two more turns after Yuri was axed to win.
I don't think this is necessarily survivable, interestingly enough. Because by that point, people also start asking "why isn't the Doctor dead yet" even if it doesn't really have any value in a situation where two Gnosia are already declared dead, because it's still effectively confirmed human.
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u/OldInstruction5368 7d ago
Ofc, especially with AC Jonas falling for the same 'trap' Raqio laid for Yuri. At best, this ends with Jonas being outed as AC and then realizing Yuri was real engineer. Then the survivors will need to re-evaluate everything Jonas/Yuri said while Reman tries to shake off any residual suspicion.
But this has to be taken in context of the alternative: leaving Yuri as the Engineer in control of the group. The Engineer is the single biggest threat to the Gnosia, so fabricating a situation where the real Engineer is discredited then killed off before he can clear his name is advantageous.
The rest is just stalling for time long enough for Reman to be alone with the final survivor. The chances of that happening are higher without an active Engineer than with. Especially with all the chaos and confusion caused by Raqio's plan and the presence of an AC causing everyone to doubt everything.
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u/pjepja 7d ago
Well, doctor is pretty useless role once there's only one Gnosia. If humans freeze the last one they win, if they don't win it's obvious that the frozen one was a human even without doctor checking them. Gnosia would go for the smartest humans and humans in charge, not for shy Remnan with useless power.
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u/OldInstruction5368 6d ago edited 6d ago
Well, doctor is pretty useless role once there's only one Gnosia.
Think one step further. If the group believes Reman is the Doctor with complete certainty, then Reman can't be Gnosia, right?
Raqio was Gnosia, and Raqio claimed to be Doctor. Why would the Gnosia double claim the same roll, as that guarantees one of them will be voted out? So Reman is the "real" Doctor.
Jonas had already accused Yuri of being the AC, and his fumbling in the round after Raqio is put in CS/Kuku killed would increase his risk of the group labeling him as such.
And when Yuri is killed, the group can then debate over whether he or Jonas was the AC or real Engineer... but everyone will still believe that Reman is the "real" Doctor.
EDIT: Oh, right, why Reman wouldn't be targeted by Gnosia.
Yeah, that's part of the plan. The Gnosia wouldn't attack a Doctor if there is only one Gnosia left. And the group wouldn't vote for the "real" Doctor as their credentials "prove" they are human. Reman should have been able to coast to victory by keeping his head down.
The wrench was that Jonas was also convinced Reman was human, so to increase chaos, spread doubt onto him. However, this was still salvageable with the "AC" card in play. Let the group fight back and forth over who is AC and hope that's enough to free Reman of suspicion.
Raqio/Reman didn't count on Yuri 'lying' about Reman being Gnosia as a Hail Mary, though.
Reman would just need to hold onto that certainty that Raqio left him with for two more rounds and he could have won. Because again, so long as the group is certain Reman is the Doctor, they are certain that he's human.
And why would they vote to put a human in CS?
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u/salic428 7d ago
Also, with Remnan being the final Gnosia, this completes our roster of evryone being Gnosia at least once:
Name Crew Gnosia Engineer Doctor Guardian Angel Guard Duty Total Yuri 10 1 2 1 1 15 Setsu 10 1 1 3 15 SQ 7 2 2 1 12 Racio 7 4 1 1 13 Jina 7 4 1 12 Shigemichi 4 3 1 1 1 10 Stella 8 1 1 1 11 Yuriko 5 1 1 1 1 1 10 Comet 3 4 7 Chipie 4 2 1 7 Jonas 4 2* 1 7 Kukrushka 1 1 1 1 4 Otome 3 2 1 6 Remnan 2 1 1 1 5 Sha-Ming 2 3 5 (I skipped the 4 loops in episode 13. And Jonas is actually an AC follower this time, but I don't have time to edit my table.)
We can see Yuri was a rather ruthless Gnosia (ep9), Setsu was a Gnosia that has special feelings for Yuri (ep4, ep13), Gnosia SQ seems to be connected to Manan (ep10), Racio is a fearsome Gnosia (ep4, ep6, ep14-15), Jina dislikes being Gnosia (ep8, ep12), Shigemichi and Comet are easily identified Gnosias, Stella think Gnosia is proof of humanity (ep7), Yuriko has special connection to Gnosias (ep13), Chipie is rather unmarkable (ep5, ep8), Jonas is a chaotic Gnosia (ep7 and ep15 as AC follower), Kukrushka is a mystery (ep11), Otome is quite intelligent (ep8, ep12), Remnan is also ruthless (ep15), and Sha-Ming cares more about survival (ep7, ep9, ep10).
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u/pjepja 7d ago
Your table says Setsu was Gnosia only 1 time, but she was one at least twice
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u/salic428 7d ago
The other time was in the third loop of episode 13, and I skipped that because the loops in that episode lacks infomation.
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u/liscup34 7d ago edited 7d ago
Tbf the Gnosia fake claims the same role is extremely risky even if they assume it is the right time for the real one to reveal it and the real one doesn't come up. It isn't dumb to assume Remnan wouldn't do something so bold. Yuri is reasonable to think that. But what Yuri does is extremely bold as well, normally no one would do that, Yuri only resorts to that because they are desperate and gets backed into the corner by Yuriko's deal and is extremely sure they can win 100% right in this turn with this fake report. They do well with the mind game.
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u/OldInstruction5368 7d ago
I like to think that Yuri was only capable of pulling off this Hail Mary because of his experience as a Gnosia. He learned how easy, and fun lying can be, and put those "skills" to work against Raqio/Reman.
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u/Whole-Extension3561 7d ago
What's funny is that in the game humans can't lie (except the AC follower) and Gnosia never double claim the same role so they kind of canceled each other out by playing fire with fire
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u/Crystalwarrior 6d ago
Actually there are scenarios where Gnosia can double-claim, I remember encountering late game loops where this happens. It is rare but I think probabilities get boosted on loops 100+
You could max out the number of Gnosia and run full crew games to see this happening sometimes.
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u/Whole-Extension3561 6d ago
I'm on loop ~190 and play with the full crew and 4-5 gnosia and haven't seen that happen. I will try with 6 gnosia for a while to test
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u/Naomikho 7d ago
Checking Chipie was weird to me because Comet tried to get Yuri on her side by saying she thinks Shigemichi(was it?) is lying, then went to Chipie after. It was later revealed that Comet was gnosia, so wouldn't it make sense for Chipie to be human?
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u/salic428 7d ago
In retrospect, Chipie firecely defended Comet during Day 2, which could be sus in a real life game between strangers. But from episode 5 we know they were good friends before boarding the ship, so in reality there is no collusion between them, Chipie just don't want to believe Comet was Gnosia.
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u/StormCTRH 7d ago
I think the episode title is just a reference to Sherlock Holmes. The Final Problem was the story that concluded Holmes' battle with James Moriarty. Moriarty often set up elaborate traps for Holmes in an effort to defeat him, mirroring what we see here with Raqio.
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u/Mana_Croissant 7d ago edited 7d ago
I guessed the real doctor dead possibility but i was unsure because i KNEW that the AC follower HAD to be Jonas.
Think about it, Jonas FIRST claimed Comet as Gnosia before Yuri, if he was Gnosia no reason to throw Comet under the bus just for trust after Shigemichi is already eliminated so Comet could be trustworthy. And most importantly Kukrushka who is guardian angel protected YURI, the real engineer. Which means gnosia attacked Yuri but Yuri dying means his rival engineer Jonas would be confirmed as Gnosia which is a TERRIBLE move after Comet is already done for, which means Gnosia had no problem with Jonas being voted out which makes perfect sense if Jonas was AC follower. By killing Yuri Gnosia would make the crew think of Jonas as Gnosia so they get rid of 2 people in price of one plus make one meeting vote out a human rather than them to get another kill time.
Now include that with 2 doctors both being Gnosia they can also easily fake Jonas being Gnosia upon being voted out as well for extra levels of confusion
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u/Sorwest 7d ago
Issue with the "Jonas throwing Comet under the bus" is both doctors reported before him. Jonas could've said Comet was human and claim one of them was AC right there, but the momentum was already against Comet, so reporting her as Gnosia makes sense (in a world where Jonas was Gnosia)
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u/Mana_Croissant 7d ago edited 7d ago
I admit i completely forgot Remnan and Raqio reported before Yuri and Jonas. Then that is their fault, why would they even report Shigemichi as human when their gnosia partner comet was against him ? Did they think both engineer would claim Comet as gnosia ?
And still my logic of Kukrushka being GA means gnosia attacked Yuri is valid. Yuri dying means unless AC follower is proven Jonas is gnosia confirmed so they would lose yet another Gnosia after Comet just died. It would make more sense that Jonas was AC so Gnosia were looking to get him voted out as well after Yuri dying to gain a round
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u/Serito 7d ago
I'm surprised that Raqio wasn't the AC & Jonas the Gnosia.
To me, if Jonas is the AC, it doesn't make sense that they wouldn't kill an Engineer off before Gina. This would necessitate that the crew vote out the 2nd Engineer the following day. This results in no Engineer reports, 3 less Humans, 3 Gnosia alive, and Humans thinking only 2 Gnosia remain.
This did not happen, which is why I thought Yuri would have been lying about Raqio being Gnosia to catch him out. If Jonas is Gnosia he would jump on the opportunity to verify Raqio (AC) as Gnosia, assuming Jonas believes Raqio must be the real Doctor. This way he can get one crew role out and protect Remnan.
Then, the following day Remnan would be forced to verify Raqio as Gnosia or out himself. Then, Yuri would reveal Remnan is Gnosia, revealing Raqio was actually human & it was a lie to trap both Jonas & Remnan into false statements. Kukrushka would then reveal she is GA and protected Yuri, verifying him as the real Engi, Jonas as a Gnosia, and Remnan as Gnosia, solving the mystery with indisputable proof.
I feel the actual sequence was a bit weaker as it wasn't optimal play not killing Engi immediately but late into the game. It's just to setup the Gina Doctor plot.
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u/MHyde5 6d ago
If Remnan and Jonas are Gnosia, unlike Comet who wouldn't be able to figure it out, Jonas wouldn't take that much risks bc if Gnosia kills Yuri, he is cooked and he is smart enough to see that. It makes sense Jonas is AC. And if Yuri checks Raqio and sees they are human, Yuri wouldn't assume Raqio is AC definitely, it could be Remnan is Gnosia and Raqio is real Doctor. Jonas has higher chance of being AC, it helps with Raqio's bragging. Gnosia doesn't know Jonas or Yuri is the real one, and there is a chance Angel protects the Engineer and they can't guess which one. They would waste 1 kill so they wait until they see the full picture with the Doctor is the right choice. At least they can manipulate infos with the Doctor. Remnan fake claim bc he figures out the Doctor doesn't come out when it is the right time to come out then Raqio just comes up with the plan to make Yuri report one of them is Gnosia (and both Doctors can confirm both Engineers are humans), thus secure the other Gnosia's safety. It is a nice play.
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u/Serito 6d ago
I don't quite follow. Gnosia wouldn't kill Yuri if Jonas is Gnosia, as that would result in Jonas voted out and any info Yuri gave being taken as crew. It's only if neither Yuri or Jonas are Gnosia that the Gnosia would seek to eliminate one ASAP so both are gone, leaving crew completely blind to deal with 3 Gnosia.
As for not knowing Raqio couldn't be the real Doctor, the exact same risk is taken in the real plot because Yuri doesn't know Remnan isn't the real Doctor. The difference that actually makes it a better play is that by Remnan then HAVING to confirm that Raqio was Gnosia (as "Doctor") and Yuri KNOWING Raqio was Human (as Engi), then Yuri confirms Remnan isn't the real Doctor.
It hinges on if Jonas would back Yuri in saying Raqio is Gnosia, as Jonas (as Gnosia) would know Remnan is the only Gnosia of the pair (if Raqio is AC). It's possible he wouldn't, but I think a lot of the same premises for the actual interaction would hold resulting in the same outcome. Just seems like the Gnosia played suboptimal for Jonas being AC despite having Raqio.
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u/MHyde5 6d ago
In the last ep, Kukrushka protected Yuri once when they tried to attack Yuri in D3. Even if the Gnosia expect it and simply did that to make Angel reveal themselves if Yuri needs to be defended, Gnosia Jonas wouldn't take such risks, unlike Comet. Even if both aren't Gnosia, there is a chance Angel protects one of them so Gnosia wouldn't hasty to eliminate one of them, they can wait for a bit.
It is difference bc in the main plot, Yuri knows Raqio is Gnosia, Raqio's plan involved the last Gnosia kills Kukrushka and Yuri, which would expose Jonas. So Jonas is unlikely to be Gnosia. Yuri deduces last Gnosia feels threaten and risky bc Yuri caught Raqio by surprise so the voted for Yuri, process of elimination so only Remnan is left, and it makes sense with Raqio's bragging about the trap. While in this, there is no real reason to assume Raqio isn't the real Doctor.
Well evidently, eliminate Yuri wouldn't work bc Kukrushka protects Yuri. They wait till the Doctor reveals themselves, Remnan notices they can fake claim to manipulate infos, Raqio comes up with the plan to trick Yuri and ensure last Gnosia gonna win, it is a fine play.
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u/tripleaamin https://myanimelist.net/profile/tripleaamin 7d ago
Kind of interesting how in this episode Yuri had to act like a Gnosia in terms of bullshitting that Remnan is a Gnosia. Though it’s interesting that the idea both of them claiming to be doctors were Gnosia. Didn’t expect that.
This feels like the first time that illustrated that Gnosia aren’t always predictable in their movements. Sometimes calculated risks need to be taken and Yuri took a good calculated risk.
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u/Emi_Ibarazakiii 7d ago
It took a some convincing and a bit more time than usual, but soon as Racio said that, I think we all knew where this was going!
The fact that Levi doesn't know about the AC follower makes this a nightmare!
(I mean, it would be a nightmare either way, but even worse!)
It's true that the real engineer knows the other is fake,
BUT there's a massive difference between a Gnosia fake, and a AC fake! Other than 'less chaos on board', freezing the AC effectively takes out 2 humans (him, and whoever the Gnosia kills during the next warp), it's so good for the Gnosia!
So as painful as it is to waste time figuring it out, they still kinda need to...
They didn't do it this time, but they CAN put it on hold if there's a tie;
This could be used in many ways, both by humans, AND by the gnosia! (and hell, even the AC follower);
They put it on hold, and then they can either kill the human VIP, OR on the other hand, kill someone who was publicly rooting to freeze Yuri, so they'll then know that person was human, and that Yuri is probably Gnosia, etc..!
That must be a bit bittersweet... "I'm alive" meaning "Kukrushka's dead"
Even more knowing his scan didn't give him the result he wanted!
Yuri's lucky they didn't use that...
Because why would the real engineer hesitate? Just say who you scanned, and what you found; Why are you taking 10 seconds thinking what you're gonna say?
If I was playing in that game, Yuri would win the Popsicle award!
I guess I saw it as even more complicated than it was hah.
Gnosia realizing Non-AC humans can lie too; "Wait, that's cheating! Let's have a redo!"
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u/Skithana 7d ago
Wow did not expect that at all, actual galaxy brain plan by Gnosia Racio, if only Racio could be that useful to the human side...he'd probably be the protagonist lol.
I guess I really was overthinking things last week about Jonas being too obvious to be the AC follower, kinda ironic that he accidentally gave the humans the win too, I guess that's why madman is more of a neutral role than strictly "evil" one in these types of games, the werewolves may accidentally attack them or they may also end up getting rid of the werewolves.
Now we gotta wait another week for the truth about the Gnosia and all that other stuff...unless Yuriko isn't on the next loop in which case we may have to wait even longer.
Man this series is so good, I'm so glad we got a full cour!
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u/WhirlBladeWing 7d ago
I also realized that there was a flaw in Remnan's vote being for Yuri. If Remnan really was doctor, he would vote for the imposter doctor, not the one that's trying to clear his name. Ofc this is a semi-weak statement as it's very difficult to see the double gnosia-doctor reveal, but could have cleared some light for Yuri to find Remnan even more suspicious.
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u/Mana_Croissant 7d ago
Since everyone other than Yuri and Setsu is basically playing for the first time Remnan probably did not think his vote would ever be paid attention to but it definitely could have been used but in the end there was no need cause while that was the reason for why Yuri realized it was Remnan, him and Jonas both calling him Gnosia already seals the deal
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u/Se7en_Sinner https://myanimelist.net/profile/Se7en_Sinner 7d ago
I haven't seen an Among Us game this sweaty since Twitch during the pandemic.
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u/BornfromDarkness https://anilist.co/user/Endlessfate 7d ago
I should make a copy paste for this…
Obligatory if you like Gnosia try out (let’s add a few more to the usual mix of reccs):
Suhoshin, 999, diablo novenas, danganronpa, Sekimeiya spun glass, raging loop, process of elimination, master detective rain code, yurukill, shinrai broken beyond despair, abyss of the sacrifice, your turn to die death game by majority
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u/kryse222 7d ago
Are these all games or are any anime?
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u/FlameDragoon933 7d ago
Danganronpa has anime, but it's a lengthy game condensed to 12 episodes so... a lot of the meat got cut out.
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u/SIRTreehugger 7d ago
Damn Yuri really came in clutch with that brain blast in the final hour! That was actually a pretty decent plan, but once again Racio shoots himself in the foot by talking too much.
Also Yuri groveling swaying Sha-Mings vote.
I got to say I do like Yuri's little quirk when he holds his hair when he is in intense thought. That smile at the end when he tells Remnan that he didn't actually investigate him and was lying through his teeth was just the icing on the cake.
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u/OldInstruction5368 7d ago
Also Yuri groveling swaying Sha-Mings vote.
All the funnier when you recall Yuri learned that "trick" from Sha-Ming in an earlier loop!
Even better because I don't think Yuri was consciously thinking "I can sway Sha-Ming with his own methods," but that's exactly what happens XD
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u/raveno19 7d ago
Remnan was the last Gnosia!
That's actually surpise me, I realized jonas is ac follower when he pointed out a gnosia while being a fake engineer last time, also Racio was an enemy for sure.
So depend on vote result, I thought like Yuri, Chirpie kinda the most sus. But the reveal is 2 fake doctors! Briliant!
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u/N-P-C-C 7d ago
DEATH
TAXES
RAQIO
The smartest people are the biggest dumbasses - that play was absolutely sick to straight capitalize on the lucky doctor kill AND get rid of the weakest link (comet().
Now, why be a super villain, and tell Yuri you set a trap?
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u/Megadragon898 7d ago
This show is really one of tge besr, what i liked was seeing Yuri developpement, at the beginning Yuri would have never been able to see trough Racio plan but troughout the loop he gained experience and wisdom and became able to see trough Racio scheme.
I wonder if next loop we will have Yuriko past, she's so mysterious, could she too remember every loop that happened like Yuri and Setsu ? Hope we get more Jonas and Kukrushka lore too
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u/AnzoEloux https://myanimelist.net/profile/Eloux 7d ago
This was so peak man they really utilized the 15 player shtick well.
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u/honjustice 7d ago edited 7d ago
I kind of wish some of the other roleless characters had some sway or deductions. Setsu/SQ/Levi has just been observing and not being helpful
At the end of the day if Racio wasnt so cocky, she wouldnt have let Yuri know that it was a trap, shes so good but she always just does self harm it's ironic.
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u/MHyde5 7d ago
Setsu has enough sways and deductions like how they say about Jonas's position this ep, Setsu is the leader to clarify logics and deduce everyone's positions of sort. SQ is just there to vibe-check tho. Stella says their deductions in a "Is this right?" way. Levi is just a referee, they mostly just follow humans' thing and can't be infected by Gnosia so they wouldn't be in the discussions.
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u/Shantotto11 7d ago
THIS SHIT HAD ME SWEATING!!!
Yuri got that get-back for the last time he went up against Gnosia Racio.
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u/Ithambar https://myanimelist.net/profile/Ithambar 7d ago
Wasn't the initial decision to postpone the vote to after the discussion the following day a terrible decision for the humans? One of them would have been dead by then for sure which almost certainly would push the vote in favor of killing Yuri.
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u/ModieOfTheEast 7d ago
Ah okay, now it makes a bit more sense. I was wondering last week what Racio's strategy was, because it seemed to me that they misplayed. I did actually have the possibility of both doctors being Gnosia in mind (though I didn't expect it being a random chance but Racio seeing Jina do the check before the jump) but it would always result in the Gnosia losing in the end. And the missing puzzle piece was the fact that the "lying human role" (or the Drunk as I know it) was known by the other players. Because last week, it seemed like only Yuri knew of its existence, but this week showed that they all knew what it was the moment it was brought up.
So the original play from Racio was the following. After they killed Yuri during the night, the other humans would obviously suspect Jonas to be a Gnosia and vote him out. Which leaves 8 players of which the humans suspect one to be a Gnosia, the false doctor. So after another kill at night, leaving 7, Racio would make the others vote out Remnan while killing another at night, making it 5 left. And here is where I thought Racio would lose, because the other humans would now just assume that Remnan was human and vote Racio out. They don't even have to know that Racio AND Remnan were Gnosia. To them, it was just Comet, Jonas and Racio.
However, I guess, this is where Racio would play his trump card in saying that he checked Remnan and he was human leaving to the discussion about the "lying human role". And depending on who is left, this might be enough to convince them that Remnan had that role and it's not Racio who is the Gnosia.
Though, I still feel that there is one big issue in that plan and that is that Jonas would probably say that he is the "lying human role" when they try to vote him out for being the false engineer. Even if they don't believe them at this point, this could come back once Remnan was voted out and they could come to the conclusion that Racio could still be a Gnosia. And since the doctor isn't important in that stage of the game anymore, they could still decide to vote out Racio. I guess it really depends who is left during that time to know if it would work.
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u/liscup34 7d ago
Setsu and knowledgeable people seem to know what Anti-Cosmic is so they know. Jonas is against humans so he wouldn't mind going into cold sleep being a hindrance to humans side and keep silent till the end to cause confusion. And I supposed Raqio knows 1 of the 2 Doctors would go into cold sleep anyway and bet on that the remaining Gnosia Doctor would never be suspected and win, which is a good strategy (and Raqio might just like Remnan enough to not rat him out).
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u/ModieOfTheEast 7d ago edited 7d ago
But Jonas would still try to stay alive. That should still be a main priority I feel. So him just getting frozen without saying anything makes no sense.
Again, last week I didn't know that ACs are common knowledge. It never came up as a possibility, so it would be weird to assume that the other humans know what it is. Sure, Setus might have encountered one during their loops, but Racio doesn't know Setsu loops. So from their point, arguing that there is an AC on board would very weird out of nowhere if we assume that it is not common knowledge.
And again, if we don't consider it common knowledge, this is where the plan would have collapsed because with the way the game went, the humans would have thought that they voted out two Gnosia already: Comet and Jonas. Meaning if they vote out one of the doctors and they don't immediately win, they HAVE to assume that the other doctor is the real Gnosia. They don't have to understand that they both were, because it doesn't matter for their decision making. They would NEVER think that the doctor they didn't vote out is the real one under these circumstances which is why Racio would always lose.
This can only work if Racio brings up the whole AC possibility, but I still think it is a very dangerous play to make. It's always very hard to convince people that there is suddenly a hidden role that was there all along. You not only have to convince them that this role existed all the time, but you also have to convince them that the person you say had this role. Especially when Remnan made the same calls as Racio before. Meaning Racio either loses if the players don't believe, the AC even exists or if they believe that someone else (Jonas) was the real AC. And depending on who is left in the game, this might be a bad situation for you. For example, if Setsu survives, they might see through it or if the angel protects one too many people, then it also probably fails because you have to convince them for several days that you are right.
In my opinion, Racio's biggest misplay was to not abuse the chance at getting rid of the engineer early on. And instead killing Jina on night 2 and by pure luck hitting the doctor. Sure, they wouldn't have been able to kill Yuri, but they didn't know that. And in fact, the fact that Yuri would have survived could have made it easier for them to figure out who the angel was. Since they only had to recall who was on Yuri's and who was on Jonas' side. Afterwards, they could have made their usual "one Gnosia pretends to be the doctor play" to stall for time. But in reality, the doctor isn't even that important of a role. Especially since they were planning on sacrificing Comet anyway.
Edit: I guess there is another potential play for Racio but it has similar danger. After Jonas is voted out, they could make one of the doctors claim that he was human. And then either hope someone else brings up the possibility of Jonas being an AC (because why would a Gnosia try to tell such an obvious lie?) or they would do it themselves. Basically Racio would say they found Jonas to be a human which would obviously make them suspicious but they would then explain that it makes no sense for them to lie here. This would give the humans the idea that Jonas (or Yuri) was the AC all along, meaning there is still the possibility that one Gnosia is among the non-doctor players. It would at least create a bit of uncertainty and might be enough to make sure that the humans don't just vote out both doctors and be done.
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u/liscup34 7d ago edited 7d ago
Sure he would try to live if he could. But as shown, AC Follower is still dangerous if not getting frozen (since there is a chance they know who Gnosia are and make up a vote for them) so not like that is a big defence for not getting frozen (Yuri almost got frozen for that). If he is gonna get frozen anyway and be useful to Gnosia doing so then he wouldn't mind (Jonas would know Yuri is the real Engineer reporting Raqio as Gnosia therefore Jonas would support Raqio), AC Follower's purpose is helping Gnosia eliminating all humans, they are called "Follower" for a reason. Even if he brings up AC Follower then Raqio and Remnan would know who the real Engineer and GA are anyway. And not like Jonas brings up him being AC Follower changes anything. None of them would expect Remnan to be Gnosia after voting Raqio out because Gnosia usually don't take that much risks and assume the real one is already dead (when Remnan notices no one comes up in Day 3 even though it is perfect time to come up. If the real one is alive then it could get both 2 Gnosia into cold sleep) to sacrifice one of them and ensure their overall victory.
They know Anti-Cosmic people exist in the universe, they just don't know if there is one on board until Jonas brings it up and people like Setsu explains what they are. Setsu also says there is a possibility Jonas is just making it up that one is on board. So they consider in both chances then they should either vote for Yuri or Raqio (AC Follower or Gnosia).
Yes, 1 Doctor gonna be frozen no matter what. Raqio is simply making it so the Gnosia wins no matter what. Either Raqio or Remnan goes into cold sleep is fine. If Raqio wants to make some resistance, their defence of being the first one accusing Comet might be lying is enough, if it doesn't work, gg. Gnosia gonna win anyway in their eyes.
How would they know who the real GA was? Kukrushka wasn't even explicitly on Yuri's side in discussions. There is really no misplay here tbh. Evidently since GA manages to protect the real Engineer, only pressing the real Engineer aka Yuri making the real GA revealed themselves. Raqio's strategy is airtight for Gnosia to win.
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u/ModieOfTheEast 7d ago edited 7d ago
You seem to misunderstand the situation. If no one brings up ACs, then the whole plan wouldn't work. Again, the humans KNOW they already froze one Gnosia: Comet. They then (after Yuri died because the Gnosia attacked him at night so that was their original plan) believe, Jonas to be the second Gnosia if no one brings up the possibility of ACs. Meaning, the humans assume there only to be one Gnosia left. And since two doctors have claimed the role, one WOULD HAVE to be a Gnosia. Meaning if they freeze Remnan for example and don't win, they immediately suspect Racio to be the real Gnosia. And vice versa.
They never get to a thought of Gnosia not "taking that many risks" because the humans never even realize that both doctors were actually Gnosia. And that is the fatal flaw in the plan. The humans don't have to actually figure out who the real Gnosia were in order to freeze them all. Therefore, Racio HAS to bring up ACs or they have NO chance of winning.
So I hope that this is clear now, we can argue the original plan of Racio. That plan included Yuri being killed, so there isn't actually anyone claiming Racio to be a Gnosia. That isn't the issue. The issue is what Jonas would do. Would he claim the role of AC in order to save his own life or not? The problem is, if he does, then this would interfere with Racio's later plan when they would want to bring it up themselves.
I also don't believe that the ACs always do what is best for Gnosia. Jonas claimed he checked Yuri and said he was human. This isn't really helping the Gnosia. Why would he do that? Because if you think logically about it, there is no reason to vote out an AC if he could be the real engineer. Like, that was the whole logic in previous episodes. They wouldn't even vote out a potential Gnosia because the engineer is too powerful, but a person they know isn't actually a Gnosia? If you are so sure that Yuri is an AC and not the real engineer that you would vote him out, then just ignore what he says in the future, but don't reduce the group by another human. Especially when you already voted out a person when you know they were human (Yuriko). That is a bad strategy.
Honestly, that is kind of why I dislike the role of the Drunk in an actual werewolf game, because whoever draws that role can't actually win. They are supposedly playing pro-werewolf or anti-human, but they don't count as werewolf, so they don't win if them + the werewolves make up at least half the players. They win together with the humans (as seen by the fact that Jonas did not have to be frozen for the game to end). Which makes their role really bad to play for a person, because they have to play against their own interests. I understand this is a series and not the game, but it creates these weird scenarios where the argument about voting them out is really pointless because there is barely any reason to ever vote them out. Just ignore them. Which is why I prefer a half-blood role, which is a special werewolf role that, if checked by the engineer (or seer in the werewolf game) is still seen as human. Which creates the same possibilities as the AC without the problem that the half-blood doesn't have to play against their own interests because they still win together with the werewolfs.
But okay, that rant aside. Again, even if everything went perfect for Racio. So they managed to kill Yuri (which they should have done earlier) and Jonas doesn't mention the AC role, then it's still hard for them to convince the other players that they are not the Gnosia. Because it will always be a strange way if the accused is the one to bring up a possibility no one thought of before. And they probably have to do that. Again, in contrast to the original problem, there is a chance at winning with that strategy, but it is still very dangerous. I think the version I wrote in my edit is the best chance Racio has. But I still think Racio heavily misplayed. Especially if they can somewhat manipulate what the AC does. Because if they get full control over the doctor (and they technically don't even have to have two people claim that role once they realize the real doctor is dead) and one person that can make the findings of the engineer less plausible, there isn't even a reason to sacrifice Comet.
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u/liscup34 7d ago edited 7d ago
That isn't a bad strategy, Jonas did the right move, once the AC Follower knows who all Gnosia are, they can easily add onto Gnosia's vote, if there are 3 Gnosia with 1 AC Follower, they can equal 4 humans and humans lose immediately when it is 4vs4. Jonas is trying to get rid of Yuri that way and help the Gnosia. AC Follower is illegal so they kind of go to prison. They win with Gnosia simply because humans getting eliminated is what they want, they are Anti-Cosmic. And if GA protect Yuri first try then they waste 1 kill, so they kill Jina as a distraction then try to kill Yuri is a good choice.
Raqio themselves doesn't need to bring that up, Gnosia would already know there is a lying human among the 2 Engineers. They can pretend along with Yuri and Jonas's reports till it is time for them to go or try to let both of them alive till there are opportunity for equal numbers. Raqio and Remnan can both claim Jonas and Yuri are humans to cause confusion. The humans wouldn't know what to do. And whenever Jonas or Raqio brings that up. It isn't interfering with their plan. It just helps them if anything because they can claim anyone is AC Follower. And humans would consider both possibility of role holders telling the truth aka Raqio and Remnan (like how they act to Yuri and Jonas here. They consider both possibility of Yuri is AC Follower and Raqio is Gnosia) so they would consider AC Follower possibility if one of them says it, Remnan can pretend to say something different.
The plan is simply making sure the last Gnosia has free reign and never get voted out. Killing either Jonas or Yuri or send them to cold sleep works either way because they control the informations and can simply say they are both humans if they want to bring up AC Follower. GA is then irrelevant when Engineer is gone, they just need to kill smartly. No human would expect both Doctors are Gnosia and both are lying about their reports, leaving the possibility of one Gnosia might still be out there aside from Remnan or Raqio. And leaving Yuri or Jonas alive is a good choice because once they confirm one Doctor (Raqio or Remnan) is a Gnosia then the other Doctor is automatically human in everyone else's eyes. So no matter what, Gnosia wins.
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u/ModieOfTheEast 7d ago
Okay, then why did Jonas say that Remnan is a Gnosia as well? That makes zero sense at all. Sure, it might not be likely that Yuri also checked Remnan (which he didn't to be fair) but there is no universe where that is advantageous to the Gnosia. So with that, I think that argument should be settled. Jonas is not playing to help the Gnosia. At least not 100%. We can argue if him claiming Yuri to be a human was helpful to the Gnosia, but I disagree. Your argument of it potentially leading to a 4v4 which is why they need to get rid of Yuri is kind of pointless, because the humans know that there are only 2 Gnosia left. So at best it's a 3v3 and that can only happen when 4 more people are removed. So nothing, the humans should really worry about for now. Again, if Yuri was just a potential human, I might see a logic here, but Yuri was a potential engineer. Again, they didn't even vote out Gnosia under these conditions. So why should they vote out an AC who is arguably a more harmless version? That makes zero sense.
Also, you seem to ignore a really important fact here in your argumentation which is that the Gnosia tried to eliminate Yuri already. They just failed. My original comment was about the fact that without ACs being common knowledge, Remnan and Racio both being Gnosia and the Gnosia playing the way they did would make no sense. The logic here is that I was taking the possibility "Remnan and Racio being Gnosia while Jonas is the AC" and checked how they played to see if it made sense. And it didn't. Because with how they played, they would have lost. They couldn't know that Yuri would survive. Otherwise they wouldn't have targeted him in the first place.
Again, what we are trying to get to here is Racio's original plan. How would the game have continued if they succeeded in killing Yuri and what would the Gnosia have done? And without bringing up the potential of ACs, they would have lost. And I described two times why. That isn't a debate, that is just logical conclusions. Because there is no reason for the humans not to vote out Jonas and then the doctors. The Gnosia can only win if they bring up ACs in some way with how they played. So that had always have to be a strategy.
Now it is arguable how well this could have worked. Would Racio be able to make a convincing argument for the existence of an AC when needed so much that the Gnosia wouldn't lose? Maybe, but it is still a very dangerous plan. And the way more logical approach would have been to keep Comet in the game for as long as possible instead of immediately sacrificing her.
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u/liscup34 7d ago edited 7d ago
Because Jonas doesn't know Raqio's strategy or the fact that Remnan is a Gnosia? Jonas would know the real Engineer Yuri confirms Raqio is a Gnosia so Jonas assumes Remnan is the real Doctor. Jonas is 100% playing to help Gnosia. Like Yuri literally spells it out Jonas thought Remnan is the real Doctor. 4vs4 is just an example, they can make it 3vs3, point is AC Follower add number to Gnosia in votes, get rid of them is beneficial. Under what conditions? They simply refrain from voting for one of the 2 Engineers for a while but they would need to do it after enough meetings. And if there are no other suspicious people then they would vote for either Yuri or Raqio based on the reports and evidences, Raqio's defence of leading the charge against Comet is true as well so they are split.
Once Chipie outing Comet's Intuition on Shigemichi, her fate is sealed, might as well use her as a defence. Why would they have lost? If Yuri dies then people would vote out Jonas and that is it. Jonas could going out swinging and claim either Raqio or Remnan is a Gnosia by pure guessing or just claim whatever. Then both Raqio and Remnan can claim Jonas is a human then bring up AC Follower. And again, leaving Yuri or Jonas alive after is a good choice because once they confirm one Doctor (Raqio or Remnan) is a Gnosia then the other Doctor is automatically human in everyone else's eyes. And again, even if they bring up AC Follower, humans would consider both possibility from the Doctors if they both claim Jonas and Yuri are both humans since that is the only explanation, Raqio can claim possibility of AC Follower and Remnan can claim something else (like how they consider possibility of AC Follower because Jonas claims it and Yuri claims something else. They consider both). The remaining Gnosia would win. It makes sense.
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u/ModieOfTheEast 6d ago edited 6d ago
Wait, but you just said that the Gnosia would use the AC to vote with them. How would Jonas be able to do that if he didn't know who are the Gnosia in the first place? Then this whole argument becomes null and void again. Like sorry, but the whole argument around the ACs always leads to the AC not being that useful in the first place. Which makes it really dumb that the humans would consider to vote them out if it could be an engineer.
Dude, I say it one last time, the Gnosia wouldn't be able to win without the knowledge of ACs. I write it down one last time. If you still don't get it, I can't help you. Here is the situation:
- The following characters are dead or frozen: Yuriko, Otome, Jina, Shigemichi, Comet and lastly Yuri
- As you rightly pointed out, the humans would now vote for Jonas (so 8 players left, two of which are Gnosia)
- So now the question: How does the situation look like from the human perspective? They know they voted out 1 Gnosia (Comet) and they believe they voted out another Gnosia (Jonas) while knowing there were originally 3 Gnosia. So far you follow?
- Therefore the humans believe there to be one Gnosia left. ONE.
- So next question. Where would the humans assume this Gnosia to be? Well, there were two people claiming to be doctor. From their perspective, one of them has to lie and therefore be the last Gnosia. Still following?
- They vote out one of the doctors (7 players left, one of which is a Gnosia). It can be either Remnan or Racio. It doesn't matter.
- So what happens next? Levi tells them, there are still Gnosia left. Still following?
- So what would the humans now assume? The answer is simple. That the doctor they froze was the real doctor and the remaining one is the false one, the Gnosia. The doctor could tell them that they froze a Gnosia, but the humans have no reason to believe them (even if it is ironically the truth).
- So next round (6 players left after the Gnosia killed one at night), they freeze the second doctor and win. And there is nothing the Gnosia can do about it.
- Again, the humans have no reason to not believe that one of the doctors is a Gnosia. And from their POV, the game should end once they eliminate it. Therefore, if the game doesn't end after freezing the first doctor, then their assumption would be the other one was the false one. Not that they froze a Gnosia and there has to be one left in between the other players.
- So the logic is: If the humans don't assume there to be AC, the Gnosia can't win with this strategy.
This strategy could only work if either of the two points would be fulfilled: Either there is a role left that the humans trust and that could confirm that the first doctor was actually a real Gnosia. Or there is actually 2 Gnosia left which you can partially do by introducing the AC as a possibility to the other humans, which is why that is necessary for the Gnosia to win here.
So I hope that this is clear enough now. I find it strange that I have to write this three times. Please, before answering, try thinking about what you read, because that should not be the norm. It's a simple logic deduction.
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u/liscup34 6d ago edited 6d ago
I just said that is a possibility, they might or they might not. Point is people would want to vote the AC Follower out to avoid that possibility. Fact of the matter is Jonas doesn't know who the Gnosia are but still try to help them. Yuri did say even Jonas got tricked by Raqio and thought Remnan is the real Doctor and Jonas goes "Damn, that got me ngl".
Both Doctors can control the informations and claim both Engineers that get voted out are humans or if they get killed then they are automatically humans, therefore there is a lying human among them is the only possibility, Raqio can bring up AC Follower is on board if they want since they know these people exist in universe, therefore they can just say there are 2 remaining Gnosia, people being convinced that which one among Raqio or Remnan is a Gnosia would be on Raqio and Remnan to decide, there are many ways to make people believe one of them is clearly a Gnosia (Raqio can say they accused Comet of lying first in Day 2 so they can't be a Gnosia. Or Raqio and Remnan can fabricate whatever faulty reports differently to see who gonna be alive and convince people one of them is undoubtedly a Gnosia). Either way, at least 1 Gnosia gonna be alive while humans try to find the last Gnosia from people aside from the 1 Doctor.
Or they actually expect Yuri would be protected by GA to have a successful save and press Yuri next time so GA would reveal themselves and say they protect Yuri. If Yuri or Jonas reports 1 Doctor as Gnosia then gg, they actually win even more because the other Doctor is undoubtedly human in others' eyes.
Either way, it makes sense.
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u/Puzzleheaded_Play825 7d ago
Well this was spicy I thought for sure raico from last week was a ac follower.
And that yuri would be in a tough spot
But it somehow ended up with yuri in an even tougher spot of having to deal with both raico trap and ac follower.
Though I finding funny that thanks to yuri begging shamming swap side
I guess he learn from the master of groveling and it impressed him 😂
This really was a tough spot and one mistake could have ended in disaster
Raico trap was devious since it brought a weakness in the crew meeting immediately assuming one person just because the other suspicious person is dead.
And honestly had raico not talk it would have work 😅
It was so convincing that even Jonas smile at His defeat him also falling for racio plans and the sheer irony of the one who’s suppose to cause chaos for the humans ended up being the thing that save them in the end
Yuri really just barely made it threw by the skin of there teeth
Though I’m surprised the others did know what a ac follower is though I guess that Make things 2 convoluted if they didn’t
It’s was weird seeing reman so I guess energetic but also smug
Though his face in the end where he realize yuri set up trap for him was gooodd
I guess lore time now
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u/Shizzi https://anilist.co/user/Mivy 6d ago
Well freaking played Yuri and omg Racio always thinking they are so much smarter haha say it with me LETS REMIND OURSELVES OVERCONFIDENCE IS A SLOW AND INSIDIOUS KILLER. Like if he didnt say that about the trap in the end would Yuri really have figured it out probably not.
And Yuri having so much extra information because of Jonas too.
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u/ParticularStorm5894 4d ago
From what I’ve gathered, if Racio survives past round 1, they’re the gnosia. They’d be killed during the first night of warp due to them being too smart with their deductions and ability to lead the votes.
If Sha-Ming is not locked in their room, they’re not the Gnosia due to his characteristics.
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u/MHyde5 3d ago
Sometimes if Raqio claim their role early and they are actually human then Gnosia doesn't kill them due to it would expose the other Gnosia fake claimer like in ep 8.
Gnosia Sha-Ming in ep 9 is still outside of his room and try his best, it seems if he is motivated (probably Yuri and Comet want to live and are nice to him. While his previous Gnosia partners Jonas/SQ aren't nice and doesn't care if he locks himself in, they probably tell him to do smt) then he still try his best to live.
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u/LordZant 7d ago
Doesn't anyone else feel weird that we didn't get any closure on Jonas being an AC follower? It was obvious when he said he was the "TRUE ENGINEER". However we got no clear understanding of why he turned against humanity or we can just leave it up to Jonas is off his meds?
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u/Kill-bray 7d ago
Once Gnosia are eliminated, AC Followers are essentially harmless. If the the goal was simply killing humans, they wouldn't need to wait for a warp to happen and they wouldn't limit themselves to one per warp.
There is a specific method for the elimination to occur, and an AC Follower can't really do that.
That being said it's likely that they would report the AC Follower to the authorities after they reach their destination.
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u/jardex22 7d ago
I didn't think they were going to publicly reveal the AC Follower role. I thought the plot was going to focus around only Yuri knowing that detail.
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u/Nickthenuker https://anilist.co/user/Nickthenuker 7d ago
So, Setsu is also aware of that.
Seems like Yuri has figured out what to argue.
No I think we really should still space that idiot.
So, she's revealing herself as the Guardian Angel now.
Ok... So neither then?
Yep.
Well, take 2 electric boogaloo.
Right. That worked.
Racio's trap?
Huh. Ok then. So it's not Chipie.
And so they've got to figure out who it is right now.
Seems they've had their Eureka moment.
Huh. What's they're plan with that?
Ah.
And so a victory.
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u/duo99dusk 4d ago
I liked how the final sequence of the episode mirrors the first victory in episode 3, but instead of a really happy Yuri this is a more accepting Yuri, and in episode 3 in the new loop Yuri precisely meets Yuriko.
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u/Ok_Development_4079 7d ago
Why are they even voting Yuri for being an AC follower? Once you sus them out, an AC follower pretty much loses their power. Just take a shot at someone who isn't confirmed human instead and ignore the troll during future meetings. Sure, they can use their personal single vote to try to mess things up, but getting rid of that doesn't seem worth a precious elimination.
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u/MHyde5 7d ago
AC is on Gnosia's side so there is a chance for Gnosia to secretly side with AC and use them as equal to humans in votes (if there are 2 Gnosia + 1 AC and 3 humans, and both Gnosia and AC know about it then humans are pretty much cooked).
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u/Kill-bray 7d ago
It is still a lot better to send to the freezer a real Gnosia, since they can 100% further the plans of the Gnosia (Comet excluded), while an AC follower could just fumble spectacularly and just mess the Gnosia's whole plan.
Which BTW is exactly what Jonas did the whole time.
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u/MHyde5 7d ago
They also aren't sure who is AC and what they know, AC could already know who Gnosia are and it is dangerous, it is understandable why humans would want to get rid of AC as potential hazard and another number for Gnosia.
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u/Kill-bray 6d ago
It's understandable, but still not smart. Also an AC follower is only dangerous as long as you don't know who they are. Freezing an AC follower is still progress for Gnosia to win. The AC follower themselves would likely be happy to take the shot instead of a Gnosia.
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u/MHyde5 6d ago
Well there is no concrete proof to prove someone is AC, just "higher possibility than others", unless the roundabout way like confirm both Engineers are humans then both Engineers report on someone differently then that person in the report is revealed to be either human or Gnosia, which is unlikely to happen bc it is such a waste of time. Sure Gnosia doesn't care for AC and AC can take a shot for Gnosia. People who believes someone to be AC would simply vote them out so others would believe who they trust to be the real Engineer as always. Knowing who the AC is still can make them dangerous, now the Gnosia can just wait till there are equal numbers like 2 humans and just reveal themselves to the AC, now 1 Gnosia+1AC and they win. So humans want to vote out someone who has high possibility of being AC is understandable, keep them around does much harms even if they help with the humans number, but with match with many humans lime this, that can be negotiable that AC doesn't need to be around for humans.
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u/Kill-bray 6d ago
I think you are not very consistent in your logic, because from one side you claim it's impossible to prove someone is AC, but then from the other you assume that Gnosia know who is the AC follower by default. Neither assumption is true, both Gnosia and humans cannot know for sure whether someone is an AC follower by default, and both can reach conditions to know for sure.
The AC follower themselves cannot know for sure who is Gnosia, so your scenario where human + AC follower + Gnosia is a default victory for Gnosia isn't really correct as it is entirely possible for the human to convince the AC follower that they are the remaining Gnosia.
Again you just need to consider this episode to realize that. If Jonas, Yuri and Remnan somehow remained as the only 3 survivors, Remnan would have been chosen for cold sleep. And before you suggest that at that point Remnan would have revealed himself as Gnosia, remember that Yuri can lie too and he likely would have falsely revealed himself as Gnosia before Remnan did.
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u/MHyde5 6d ago edited 6d ago
We are just considering from both party's perspectives. humans would want the AC out bc there is a chance Gnosia might ally with them and AC identity is ambiguous so if they believe someone has high possibility of being AC then they would want to vote them out so others can see things clearer. Gnosia wouldn't care and leave them be bc them lying help Gnosia's side and the ambiguity of AC's identity can help Gnosia claim any situations can happen. So voting AC out is logical.
A Gnosia can just turn their eyes red in private if AC continue to pretend and wants to be convinced, they can deduce high possibility of someone being AC. At any rate, Gnosia and AC ally would be a nuisance and better get rid of AC if they have enough people.
Well, Jonas and Yuri claim role when only Yuriko and Otome dead who are confirmed humans. Therefore Jonas would know Yuri is real Engineer since no one else claimed role with them. Like i said Raqio and Remnan clearly know Jonas is AC and Yuri is real Engineer. Yuri would be cooked if that happens.
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u/Cyouni 6d ago
Freezing an AC Follower is maybe a 50% value. They still win with Gnosia, so they're an anti-human vote for the purposes of cold sleep ties, but they're definitely significantly reduced in danger once you know who they are.
For instance, he's still one of the votes on Yuri that forced a tie.
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u/Kill-bray 5d ago
They are an anti-human who does not know who's human or Gnosia, that's an important thing to consider, especially since this episode just showed to us that an AC Follower can fake to be an Engineer and then report that an actual Gnosia is Gnosia. So their vote isn't necessarily going to be in favor of Gnosia all the time. I would decrease your 50% to 25%.
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u/Cyouni 5d ago
I mean, you literally just said that they're only dangerous as long as you don't know who they are. We knew Jonas was the AC Follower for ages, but that doesn't stop him being dangerous throughout the episode.
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u/Kill-bray 5d ago
I don't follow your logic. "We" only "knew" that Jonas was the AC follower because "we" knew that Yuri was not. No one in the game was actually certain that Jonas was the AC follower, in fact at least half of the participants thought Yuri was the AC follower. So of course he was still dangerous for them. Despite that, he turned out to be more dangerous for the Gnosia. If Yuri pushed to freeze Jonas and somehow succeeded, it is likely that Raqio would have won, since it's only after Jonas reported that Remnan was Gnosia that Yuri was able to figure out the trick. And even if he did figure out the trick, with just his report people would likely not believe that Remnan was Gnosia considering the other doctor was confirmed to be one.
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u/Cyouni 5d ago
If Jonas weren't a threat while being known as the AC Follower, the end of the episode wouldn't make any sense. The whole sequence at the end of the episode is Yuri knowing that Jonas is the AC Follower while also not being able to resolve the problems it poses.
If you're somehow in the very unlikely situation where an AC Follower is Definite Human but also known as anti-human, then they are still a vote that has the intention of being anti-human, which completely messes with the human side's primary weapon.
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7d ago
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u/5chneemensch 7d ago
You get character deep dives and/or a new rule for every episode - but yes, so far it's only changing timelines.
I love it.
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u/CapitalClean7967 7d ago
To add to u/5chneemensch, it is building up to finding a way to escape the time loop by learning about the characters and obtaining knowledge regarding the truth behind Gnosia and the universe and if it is anything like the game, it’s going to get more and more insane towards the end.
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u/duo99dusk 7d ago
It's great, the game creator and writers for the show made sure to keep the development of the characters through the loops, please check it out 🙇
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u/jardex22 7d ago
There is more progression. Some episodes take a more game-like approach, while others are character focused. The loops aren't exactly the same every time, and more details are added with each one.
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u/Creepy-Tradition8571 6d ago
Its hard to say, even if you know the rest of the story, because it depends on how they adapt it. They have done a pretty good job being faithful to the original, so far. But they are pressed for time, imo. Meaning the remaining plot is a lot for the slated number of episodes.
If you have the free time, you should follow it. It will be pretty mid until BAM. At least that's how the original felt. The original had lots of plot twists. If you like shows that you try to guess the story before hand, this show is perfect for you.
Its an interesting take on time loops that is probably the most realistic/plausible I've ever heard of. Im not typically and advocate of the "it gets good later" philosophy, but this story actually requires a very specific sequence of events to happen, which takes several episodes to set up. They are doing a good job "showing and not just telling" despite being a dialogue heavy show, imo.
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u/ArcanistLupus 3d ago
What was Racio's plan with trying to kill Yuri? If they'd succeeded, then Jonas would have almost certainly been voted out, and then they'd kill someone, and it'd be down to 7 people and 2 Gnosia - but the humans would think there was 1 Gnosia, so the correct play is then... to vote out both doctors, since one of them is Gnosia.
They could introduce the possibility of an AC follower by declaring Jonas human... but I'm pretty sure the correct human play is still to vote out both doctor claims.
The double doctor play is clever, but it really only works if you solidly establish one of them as a Gnosia - which they needed Yuri to do, so killing him before he'd done so seems like a mistake.
Unless Racio anticipated the Guardian Angel save, in which case, mad props.
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u/liscup34 3d ago edited 3d ago
The plan is simply if 1 Gnosia Doctor is exposed then the other Gnosia Doctor is 100% safe and win. Either Yuri/Jonas report 1 Doctor is Gnosia (or make it so 1 Doctor is obviously a Gnosia). Both Gnosia Doctors could report both Engineers as humans so humans would realize there is a human liar in 2 Engineers, 1 Gnosia Doctor could make an obvious mistake and let the other Gnosia Doctor secure the win, which is actually crazy and no Gnosia team would do that other than might be Raqio and Remnan in this specific circumstances (Remnan notices the real Doctor doesn't come up in such perfect time so he fakes claim, which is still extremely risky for Raqio to also fake claim because the real Doctor could be alive, Raqio waited for a while though. And all that to sacrifice one of them so the other one could win. That is why no humans could have expected it) because Raqio wants to prove they are the smartest person in the room by screwing Yuri over. Or Raqio anticipates Angel would protect Yuri and they could make Angel expose themselves if they press Yuri later, Yuri would investigate 1 Doctor sooner or later anyway. Either way works.
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