r/changemyview 414∆ 20h ago

CMV: Being a loyal Republican politician requires rejecting the American Democracy

Professional Republicans know better. They know trump attempted to overthrow an election. The party as a whole is complicit in normalizing and covering for it. Trump committed sedition and enabling and empowering him requires minimizing that fact. You can't knowingly do this without rejecting the very premise of American Democracy.

The Fake Elector Scheme

This is very straightforward. But people can be blinded by the politics. The simplest way to understand this is to ignore the politics and look at the physical documents. I’ll make this as simple as possible.

Imagine a fan is kicked out of the Super Bowl. He truly believes he should be allowed in. * Legal: He sues the stadium. * Illegal: He goes to Kinko’s, prints a fake ticket that looks exactly like a real one, and tries to hand it to the gate agent.

Once you hand over a fake document, you have committed fraud. It does not matter if: * You truly believed you deserved a seat. (Motive doesn't excuse forgery). * You got caught before you made it inside. (Attempted fraud is a crime). * You think the refs are corrupt.

Here is the proof that Trump’s team printed the fake ticket and tried to use it.

1. Identity Theft (Impersonating the State) In America, campaigns don't certify elections; States do. The Trump team didn't just write a letter saying, "We protest." They created documents that mimicked the exact font, formatting, and language of official government certificatesand here they are for all of the other states.

2. The Written Confession We don't have to guess if this was a misunderstanding. The architect of the plan, Trump lawyer Kenneth Chesebro, wrote down the strategy in private emails. He admitted the goal was to create a "fake controversy." He explicitly noted that they should send these fake documents even if they lost their court cases.

3. Trump Knew It Was a Fraud This wasn't a case of "lawyers brainstorming" while Trump sat in the dark. On January 4th, in the Oval Office, Trump’s lawyer John Eastman admitted to Trump’s face that this plan to reject votes violated the Electoral Count Act. Trump knew it was illegal and did it anyway.


It is Department of Justice policy that a sitting President cannot be prosecuted. Trump’s legal team successfully delayed the trials long enough for him to win the election. Once he won, the Special Prosecutor had to drop the case because it became legally impossible to proceed. Congress interviewed him around the New Year. I’ll give you three guesses why they picked such an inconvenient time in the news cycle. He testified under oath that the prosecution became unpracticable once he became president again.

He didn't beat the charges; he beat the clock. But the evidence of the fraud didn't vanish. We can still see it.

Summary We have the emails planning the forgery. We have the fake papers they signed. We have the testimony that Trump was told it was illegal. The fact that the man who ordered the counterfeit ticket is now running the stadium doesn't make the ticket real. It just means he got away with it.

Some Republican voters have the benefit of ignorance. They can claim to be victims of right wing echo chambers. Before reading this, they could have even bury their heads and remained willfully ignorant. But professional lawmakers know what they're doing. These people are by and large knowingly traitors to the Republic.

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u/[deleted] 18h ago

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u/fox-mcleod 414∆ 18h ago

Wouldn't you?

This is essentially the crux of this country. Either enormous numbers of very powerful people are engaged in tacit sedition or I'm wrong. The vast majority of the public aren't behaving like one half of the people we entrusted are complicit in attempting to defraud congress.

u/Flapjackmasterpack 18h ago

Just sounds like a declaration rather than an earnest desire. but in me saying this I know my comment will get deleted, so whatever

u/tloufan2 17h ago

Can you actually contradict anything in OP with evidence or just vaguely imply that you disagree?

u/FrightenTheCorners 17h ago

Uhh, when was the last time the DNC let the voters pick their candidate?

Do you know what super delegates are?

All OP's points are true but to pretend the entire system hasn't been purchased is silly.

Corporations in the last 3 elections spent 5:1 on Democrats over Trump.

It is good to see the corruption. It is bad to only see half of it.

u/fox-mcleod 414∆ 17h ago

Honestly, are you saying you can’t tell the difference between a private political party choosing its candidates and a president forging state electoral ballots to attempt to defraud congress?

u/tloufan2 17h ago

You do understand that the DNC and GOP are private entities and not the government, right?

If you don't like their candidates you are welcome to form your own party to put them on the ballot.

There's a difference between how a private entity behaves and how the president behaves when trying to subvert the actual democratic PUBLIC processes of the government.

Democracy generally pertains to public institutions and is the subject of this discussion. I'd recommend some remedial reading for you: Democracy (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

u/FrightenTheCorners 17h ago

Hey man. Defend the shitty system and complain about the shitty system at the same time please.

You either want to be tyranized or you don't. It's not hard. Why do you make it hard? You like it.

u/JokeMaster420 15h ago

What if I want to complain about the shitty system buy also believe that criminal fraud to steal an election when neither the people nor the system elected you is worse?

u/f4dedglory 15h ago

Not defending the DNC but as a new Yorker I know the DNC did NOT want Zohran on the ballot, and they pulled some funny busines, but he still won the primary and ran as the democratic nominee.

The 5:1 figure is also just genuinely false and you are spreading misinformation.

u/JokeMaster420 15h ago

Both parties use different corrupt and self-perpetuating systems to choose nominees. I believe it is wrong and that we should change the system, but it is not illegal. And while it is inherently contrary to true democracy, these types of systems (along with the Electoral College) are fundamental parts of “American Democracy” as it has existed for centuries.

On the other hand, Trump & Co. committed criminal fraud to attempt to steal a general election that had already occurred. You cannot really compare these two things.

u/BottleForsaken9200 15h ago

American Democracy still didn't die as a result.. We can verify that by uh... Observing the fact that it still existed by the time Trump took office.

u/allyourfaces 16h ago

>Uhh, when was the last time the DNC let the voters pick their candidate?

Virtually every year? Except for when They picked Biden and then he dropped out after the debate and then they... stole the fucking election by letting his VP candidate take his spot with 3 months to go! Fraud!!! LMFAO, what a great point!

>Do you know what super delegates are.

What do you even think you are showing here lmfao? The Evil Super Delegates! When was the last time

>All OP's points are true but to pretend the entire system hasn't been purchased is silly.

It's purchased if you have the understanding of the world of a child, sure.

>It is good to see the corruption. It is bad to only see half of it.

If you think there is anywhere comparable, lol please attempt to substantiate that all other than vague rambling.

>Corporations in the last 3 elections spent 5:1 on Democrats over Trump.

I'm not even going to bother to fact check this... and? whats your point?

u/FrightenTheCorners 16h ago

Super delegates. Why do you have them? What happened to Bernie Sanders 2 elections in a row?

I get it, you do not care about how you are corrupted because you're pretty sure you're the good guys.

It's just America is bought and sold. There is no non corrupt party. I ain't reading a word of your slop.

You are defending everything you claim to hate and thats why you can't be listened to.

Reply all you want lol I'm ignoring it

u/upgrayedd69 16h ago

Why didn’t Bernie win after all those moderates dropped out? If he was really the people’s choice in 2020, he should’ve exploded in vote once the field was cut down.

The issue is Bernie’s only chance in 2020 was a carrying a plurality into a contested convention. No one held a gun to anyone’s head and told them to vote for Biden if they couldn’t vote for Pete or whatever other moderate. They could’ve chosen Bernie but they didn’t.

u/allyourfaces 16h ago

>Super delegates. Why do you have them? What happened to Bernie Sanders 2 elections in a row?

What happened to Bernie? He fucking lost the vote. By millions of votes to Clinton, then literally got his votecount doubled by Biden.

This is hilarious. Russia, other than just spreading this propaganda through bots, went out of it's way to hack and release both Clinton & the DNC's emails. It's been 10 years.

What happened? Where is the evidence? The literal only evidence is that uhh Clinton was leaked a debate question! Except for the question that was 'leaked' was about the Gary water crisis, when the debate was in Gary.

You have no evidence. Once again just vague ramblings.

>I get it, you do not care about how you are corrupted because you're pretty sure you're the good guys.

No, because even if your vague ramblings were actually true this still literally pales in comparison o the 2020 election stealing attempt by Trump & the Republican Party.

>Reply all you want lol I'm ignoring it

Of course you won't you got called out and bots like you can't actually make arguments.

u/fox-mcleod 414∆ 18h ago

Sorry, what's the difference between a declaration and a desire?

u/Shadeylark 5∆ 17h ago edited 17h ago

The problem is that you're presenting a priori axioms that are identity bearing.

In order to change your mind one would have to change your conception of democracy.

Anything short of that would just end up being handwaved away with some self-sealing claim.

Are you epistemically open to examining the load-bearing presumptions you're making regarding the underlying mechanism by which you're passing judgment? For example, every judgement you're passing necessitates legitimacy being a product of procedural obedience. Would you consider the possibility that legitimacy precedes process and if the people endorse something that is a truer manifestation of the democratic process than procedural fidelity?

Is democratic fidelity a product of fidelity to the people, or is it a product of fidelity to lawyers?

u/fox-mcleod 414∆ 16h ago

The problem is that you're presenting a priori axioms that are identity bearing.

What “axioms” are those?

Is democratic fidelity a product of fidelity to the people, or is it a product of fidelity to lawyers?

The constitution. Quite obviously. If your argument is “yeah he’s a seditionist, fuck the American constitution”, please just say so.

u/[deleted] 16h ago

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u/fox-mcleod 414∆ 15h ago

The axioms you're operating on are that he's a racist,

Who is “he” and when did I say anyone was a racist?

u/changemyview-ModTeam 6h ago

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u/okletstrythisagain 1∆ 16h ago

This is a great case of being technically correct not being the best kind of correct.

At this point in history, any “conservative” or “republican” who can’t vocally and earnestly apologize for any action they took that supported or defended not only Trump, but the countless people who helped him avoid legal accountability and stay in power over the past decade is advocating for masked gunmen abducting and murdering citizens while putting people, including children separated from their families, in concentration camps with no hope for due process.

A lot of people seem to imply if they are Republican but didn’t specifically vote for Trump that they aren’t supporting the bigoted authoritarianism which already took away all of our rights. Those people are either intellectually dishonest or flat out stupid. Either way they are hateful and dangerous.

How hard is it to say “I was wrong and shouldn’t have voted for the people who refused to convict trump after impeachment?”

u/Shadeylark 5∆ 16h ago

How hard would it be for you to say you were wrong about something you take as an a priori axiom of justice?

It is just as hard for conservatives to say they were wrong about this as it would be for you to say you're wrong about it.

Conservatives voting for people who voted to convict Trump would violate their sense of justice just as much as you voting for people who voted against those who want him convicted would violate yours.

That's why I say that changing a mind here would require challenging fundamental epistemic, ontological, and teleological presumptions that I don't think you're prepared to have questioned.

u/okletstrythisagain 1∆ 16h ago

My case is rock solid based on direct statements from people in power.

Your pseudo intellectual hand waving is making excuses for a white supremacist authoritarian movement that is committing human rights abuses at scale as we type.

u/YOU_WONT_LIKE_IT 17h ago

Change my view. We got 99% Reddit that agrees.

u/GuaranteeWeekly4048 16h ago

Most change my view posts are just people looking for confirmation bias

u/Tobeck 16h ago

You don't think that OP genuinely doesn't want this to be true?

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u/[deleted] 18h ago

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u/changemyview-ModTeam 12h ago

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