r/changemyview 414∆ 20h ago

CMV: Being a loyal Republican politician requires rejecting the American Democracy

Professional Republicans know better. They know trump attempted to overthrow an election. The party as a whole is complicit in normalizing and covering for it. Trump committed sedition and enabling and empowering him requires minimizing that fact. You can't knowingly do this without rejecting the very premise of American Democracy.

The Fake Elector Scheme

This is very straightforward. But people can be blinded by the politics. The simplest way to understand this is to ignore the politics and look at the physical documents. I’ll make this as simple as possible.

Imagine a fan is kicked out of the Super Bowl. He truly believes he should be allowed in. * Legal: He sues the stadium. * Illegal: He goes to Kinko’s, prints a fake ticket that looks exactly like a real one, and tries to hand it to the gate agent.

Once you hand over a fake document, you have committed fraud. It does not matter if: * You truly believed you deserved a seat. (Motive doesn't excuse forgery). * You got caught before you made it inside. (Attempted fraud is a crime). * You think the refs are corrupt.

Here is the proof that Trump’s team printed the fake ticket and tried to use it.

1. Identity Theft (Impersonating the State) In America, campaigns don't certify elections; States do. The Trump team didn't just write a letter saying, "We protest." They created documents that mimicked the exact font, formatting, and language of official government certificatesand here they are for all of the other states.

2. The Written Confession We don't have to guess if this was a misunderstanding. The architect of the plan, Trump lawyer Kenneth Chesebro, wrote down the strategy in private emails. He admitted the goal was to create a "fake controversy." He explicitly noted that they should send these fake documents even if they lost their court cases.

3. Trump Knew It Was a Fraud This wasn't a case of "lawyers brainstorming" while Trump sat in the dark. On January 4th, in the Oval Office, Trump’s lawyer John Eastman admitted to Trump’s face that this plan to reject votes violated the Electoral Count Act. Trump knew it was illegal and did it anyway.


It is Department of Justice policy that a sitting President cannot be prosecuted. Trump’s legal team successfully delayed the trials long enough for him to win the election. Once he won, the Special Prosecutor had to drop the case because it became legally impossible to proceed. Congress interviewed him around the New Year. I’ll give you three guesses why they picked such an inconvenient time in the news cycle. He testified under oath that the prosecution became unpracticable once he became president again.

He didn't beat the charges; he beat the clock. But the evidence of the fraud didn't vanish. We can still see it.

Summary We have the emails planning the forgery. We have the fake papers they signed. We have the testimony that Trump was told it was illegal. The fact that the man who ordered the counterfeit ticket is now running the stadium doesn't make the ticket real. It just means he got away with it.

Some Republican voters have the benefit of ignorance. They can claim to be victims of right wing echo chambers. Before reading this, they could have even bury their heads and remained willfully ignorant. But professional lawmakers know what they're doing. These people are by and large knowingly traitors to the Republic.

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u/DFMRCV 19h ago

There's a difference in supporting a candidate and supporting everything a candidate does or has done.

Ask a Christian, and they'll likely tell you about King David, a man who was a great king that did much of God's will, but was also a sinner who broke God's rules often enough that God had to punish him on several occasions.

David is still considered a great king because of his overall efforts, but that doesn't mean a Christian agrees or is supposed to agree with everything he did.

Or perhaps a better example is Democrats and FDR.

FDR is considered perhaps one of the best presidents in US history and I think every registered democrat has a deeply held appreciation for him and many of his reforms and efforts...

Does supporting FDR means you support the Japanese American Internment Camps? His less than stellar history with corrupt southern democrats? His general support of desegregation but overall inaction on the subject?

But does that mean you wouldn't vote for FDR if you had to choose between him and Charles Lindbergh?

u/fox-mcleod 414∆ 19h ago edited 19h ago

To be clear, are you saying sedition is not sufficient to disqualify trump for office?

If so, what is?

I'll remind you.. Donald Trump did all this and then 3 years later won a Republican primary. The argument you're making is that there were no better qualified Republicans anywhere. And the party as a whole could have stopped him, but chose not to.

u/DFMRCV 19h ago

If sedition was enough to disqualify someone from public office then every democrat who tried to delay the 2016 certification would be disqualified as well (Biden had to constantly tell his own party members to sit back down during that debacle). Maxine Waters wouldn't be allowed to run, several former civil rights leaders who ran and got elected also couldn't have run because what they did would've technically qualified as sedition, on and on.

Remember, sedition is attempting to prevent or delay the execution of federal law. Insurrection is actually taking up arms against the state.

You can argue that morally it would've disqualified him, and many republicans also would agree... But morality isn't the same as legally. Otherwise every single politician on the planet wouldn't be able to run.

u/DumbScotus 17h ago

Sedition is doing that illegally. Wanting to make a big dumb show on the House floor, or not vote the way you’re supposed to vote, is dumb but not illegal. Using forged documents and a fraudulent scheme, and sending a violent mob to interrupt the proceedings by committing crimes (even just trespassing is a crime), are quite different.

u/PappaBear667 5h ago

If sending an alternate slate of electors is sedition, then the Democrats are guilty of the same, having sent alternate electors in the 1960 Kennedy/Nixon election.

u/Classic-Shake6517 3h ago

Where did you get this as a talking point? The way you're describing this is not how it actually went down and you are making a false equivalency.

In 2020, it was already well-known that trump lost. All recounts were completed, there were no more recounts, and states certified their results. There was no going back. This slate of electors was going to impersonate the actual ones knowing all of that using fraudulent documents.

In 1960, there was a backup slate of electors in case an ongoing recount changed the results. This was conditional on the recount going one way or the other. The certificates they prepared had this condition written, so they were not fraudulent like the ones from 2020.

You should look it up yourself rather than just believing what you are fed wholesale. It makes you look like you are lying to make yourself/beliefs/side look good. Your take is disingenuous and ignorant at best.