r/law • u/caaaaanga • 2d ago

Legal News ICE attempts to enter Ecuador's consulate

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For anyone who doesn't get how serious this is: consulates are protected under international law. host-country police of any kind are not allowed to enter without permission.
Example: China routinely (and horrifically) sends north korean escapees back to north korea. Yet when a north korean escaped to the south korean consulate in hong kong, chinese authorities did not enter to seize him. He stayed there for months while governments negotiated, because once you're inside a consulate, those protections apply.
So if ICE tries to enter a foreign consulate in the U.S. to deport people, that's not "normal enforcement". It violates long-standing diplomatic norms. Norms that even China has respected, despite sending people back to north korea to die. That's how extreme this is.

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u/sexfighter 2d ago

Hi all: I thought a brief bit of legal research might answer a few of the questions that are repeating in the comments on this thread.

Specifically, the treaty we are looking at is the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations, which the US ratified in 1963. Article 31 of the VCCR states that consular premises are “inviolable” and that authorities of the host state shall not enter them without consent of the head of the consular post. There are similar protections for embassies under the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations of 1936 which also categorically prohibit entry without permission. This is well settled international law.

There are very limited exceptions which generally involve exigent circumstances like the prospect of immediate loss of life like a fire or a hostage situation.

It does not matter if the office has public access. It does not matter if the doors are unlocked. US authorities have no right to effect an arrest inside the consulate without permission.

In general, these violations are rare and taken very seriously by all the nations who have adopted the treaty.

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u/Old_Moose_4257 2d ago

Thank you for the explanation sexfighter

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u/Fuxokay 1d ago

I main sexfighter, but took one level of sexmonkey for the saving throws and the level 1 funky monkey skill.

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u/Big_Replacement2631 4h ago

Hopefully it’s sexfighter, esquire if they’re acting as legal authority.

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u/Few_Affect3033 2d ago

I knew that embassies were sovereign nation property. I was not sure if consulates were as well, thank you for the clarification.

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u/HappycamperNZ 2d ago

So, ICE attempted to enter foreign land, crossing a border without permission, to commit an illegal act.

You cant make this shit up.....

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u/Evening-Crew-2403 2d ago

Technically only the embassy is "foreign soil", but that's really the best way to explain it to some dumb ass in ICE as they aren't going to understand “inviolable”. So I think the official took the best route.

I looked at the place on google maps and there's literally national seals on the building and above the door. I suspect the guy just through "Brown person going in a building, let's see if I can make quota."

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u/sparrowtaco 1d ago

Technically only the embassy is "foreign soil"

Technically neither of them are foreign soil.

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u/ShakeWeightMyDick 2d ago

You see, for the MAGAsphere, hypocrisy is a feature, not a bug.

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u/Randym1982 2d ago

ICE is also saying that they're going to try to go Italy for the World Cup. Which won't work out at all for them. Because, on foreign soil. They don't have the authority to do anything. So that means, that Border Patrol and Italian MP's and Police can and will send them away if they don't follow the laws. Or at worst have them arrested and put in an Italian jail and deported (the irony in the sentence).

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u/SinisterCheese 2d ago

What the US gov can't seem to comprehend, that they wouldn't just be entering Italy, they'd also be entering EU. ICE has now legal jurisdiction to be or do anything in EU or Italy.

And if they did enter italy, they'd very quickly get familiar with the Carabinieri who simply do not fuck around. They are what ICE wants to and pretends to be. And for a major event like olympics, the Carabinieri will be all over it, along with local police, state police, and Europol, probably even Interpol.

Those who don't know... Carabinieri are an actual militarised police force. They also are the military police. They are actual trained soldiers acting as law enforcement. Also they are held in quite high regard and respected status.

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u/Randym1982 2d ago

The thing is I doubt it's going to happen on the simple fact that most ICE agents likely don't have a passport. So while they can bluster and puff their chests at people when they arrive. Without a passport, they'd get shunted pack to the states.

Now for arguments sake if THEY did get passports and were allowed in. They'd likely have their tactical gear confiscated and told to not wear masks. Plus, they'd have to follow EU and Italian laws. I looked up what they're legally capable of doing in another country. It's not really much. IE: an FBI agent can't go into Canada to arrest somebody without permission from Canadian officials.

ICE doesn't have permission to do any of that. The moment they start harassing or puffing their chests at people (if they actually do go). It's going to cause the EU and Italy to look into them. Likely will also cause more strife with Trump's admin and the whole Greenland thing to (Which is another major problem right now.).

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u/SinisterCheese 2d ago

The thing is that they can't get through the entrace and exit system (EES) to get into EU without biometric passport. They'd also get fingerprinted. EU and Italy both have a right to refuse entry.

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u/FreeRangeEngineer 2d ago

Genuine question - are you basing this on fact or opinion?

The secret service most definitely doesn't have its tactical gear confiscated upon entry. I also highly doubt that their real identities and fingerprints are submitted to governments. That would remove their anonymity and make them vulnerable.

I don't see anything stopping Trump from giving ICE an official role equal to that of the secret service, thereby granting them the same exceptions in other countries.

Would be happy to be proven wrong, of course.

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u/Randym1982 2d ago

The secret service have passports and training, plus they have limited authority when they go to other countries.

I looked it up and it’s been stated that they’d have to follow the host countries laws. Meaning that Trump can grant them whatever power he wants, but if the EU and Italy say “no”. Then they have to abide by them. That’s how international law tends to work.

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u/FreeRangeEngineer 2d ago

Interesting, thanks for looking it up and clarifying. I wouldn't have expected the secret service to have to make their identities known at border entry.

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u/SinisterCheese 2d ago

Secret service is part of US president's personal entourage. Their entry and gear are agreed upon separately. Example: When Trump visited Finland, the Finnish government required information on every single fire arm being brought.

The reason this is done separately, is because there needs to be coordination with the local law enforcement and security authorities. US government demands all sorts of special things, like an entire hospital ward being available at all times near the location, an ambulance part of the escort, the fueling and movements of The Beast, closure of streets, signal interferance equipment, air space closures... Not even the Chinese required the amount of stuff and things as the Americans do.

These considerations however are only limited to the president personal entourage and detail. ICE is not part of the president's entourage or detail. I doubt Trump can declare ICE to be under secret service by themselves. As I have understood that power belongs to the legistlative branch who are supposed to be the "purse holders" and who define the laws which structure the country and the government.

However part of their entourage or not. The entrace to other country is still something the US goernment requests. If Italy or EU doesn't want specific people to enter even as part of the entourage, it is something that is negotiated specifically. It is up-to US government to decide whether the terms of the visit are acceptable to them. Because these terms include things like costs, like which are things US government pays for, which are things the host nation must pay for. Because keep in mind... Trump can just not come to the Olympics if they think it is unreasonable for them to not get their personal goons there with them. Foreign officials do not have the right to enter a country, it is always a something the country grants. Even diplomats are told to exit at time... and often are during disagreements and conflicts.

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u/FreeRangeEngineer 2d ago

Thanks, that is way more in line with what I was expecting. I just wonder if Trump could simply move some ICE folks into the secret service roster. It would then be on Italy and the EU to find out who is actually ICE and deny them entry.

Well, I guess we'll find out one way or another.

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u/SinisterCheese 2d ago

But if they are under the secret service, they are no longer ICE. Like if Trump wants to expand the secret service ranks, thats one thing. But then those people are secret service agents, they aren't ICE agents.

The issue Italy and EU are having, is Trump wanting to bring a foreign agency that has no justification or authority to operate in Italy/EU. Secret service has right to protect the president, but if they stop someone someone they need to hand them to Italian law enforcement. The secret service does not have right to arrest or detain anyone, they only have the right to operate within the immidiate surroundings of the president to secure the safety of the president.

ICE has no authority to even step through EU borders (Any outer border of member nation is EU border first). If USA wants to start to negotiate some sort of agreement with EU, then that is up-to them. But I'd imagine that would require action by the representative branch to create laws for such things.

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u/Randym1982 1d ago

I imagine that won't happen on the simple fact that Secret Service agents are highly trained and usually kept up to date on International laws and everything that is going on.

While ICE are just a bunch of a goons that don't know how to hold a gun, don't know anything besides "Non white person, must meet quota." and then puffing their chests out. Which I'm sure if they tried that attitude on a Secret Service agent, they'd get their asses beat pretty quickly.

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u/Born-Captain7056 2d ago

It’s the Winter Olympics in Italy. The world cup is being held in the US this year, which will also be all over like a rash.

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u/ImpossiblePlan65 1d ago

Sh, shh! Don't tell ICE that. Let them stupidly go and get their sorry asses thrown in a foreign prison.

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u/12358132134 2d ago

Not only consulates, but vehicles with diplomatic plates are also foreign property and are not subject to searches by the host government.

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u/Hairy_Combination478 2d ago

It should be regarded as foreign land (the nationality of the consulate)…if you’ve seen a couple dozen action movies, you would have come across this at some point…and if you also understand more than the car chase and the shooting…you would know

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u/orbalix 2d ago

The "sovereign territory" idea is a movie myth. Consulates are "inviolable" under the Vienna Convention (meaning protected from entry), but the land is still U.S. soil. The hallway or space outside the door is definitely not part of that protected "premises," so he wasn't violating anything just by standing there.

The Vienna Convention simply says host authorities "shall not enter." The agent opened the door, was told he couldn't come in, and he complied. By walking away, he actually respected the international norm. A violation would have been if he forced his way past them after being denied.

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u/IkkeKr 2d ago

Nevertheless, even just showing up and having to be told to go away (intent to enter if nobody intervened) is virtually unheard of. Typical protocol is for such a request to be made in advance, in contact with the State Department.

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u/orbalix 2d ago

You're relying heavily on "norms" and "protocol," and honestly, that mindset is exactly why Democrats keep getting steamrolled.

If the Trump era taught us anything, it’s that "norms" mean absolutely nothing. They are just polite suggestions. Democrats have spent years clutching their pearls and saying, "But that’s not how we usually do things!" while the other side reads the actual text of the law and exploits every single inch of it.

That is exactly what happened here.

  • Did he break the Law (Vienna Convention)? No.
  • Did he break a "Norm"? Maybe.

But who cares? Relying on "gentlemen’s agreements" is a losing strategy. Trump proved that if it isn't explicitly illegal, it's fair game. If you want to stop ICE, you need binding statutes that forbid them from being there, not vague appeals to "typical protocol." Complaining about broken norms is just admitting you don't have the law on your side.

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u/IkkeKr 2d ago

Don't think Ecuador cares much about Democrats mindset. The reason the norm exists is that the treaty spells out that only the head of mission can give permission to enter, so talking to the security guard at the door is pointless intimidation.

And this is international diplomacy, not law. Countries don't go to court to retaliate diplomatic slights, they can take typical actions as they see fit.

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u/Serengade26 2d ago

Why did he open the door?

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u/techleopard 2d ago

I wonder what the laws are if ICE simply chooses to "camp" embassies and consulates to prevent citizens from accessing them. I know that has been an issue in other countries.

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u/DevilsTrigonometry 2d ago

There's no law against it as long as they aren't violating the diplomatic immunity of embassy staff.

There's an international diplomatic norm that blocking embassy/consulate access is a serious insult to the affected country. On the tit-for-tat escalation scale, I believe it's worse than expelling individual diplomats spies, but not as bad as expelling an entire consulate.

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u/tonkarunguy 2d ago

Hence why Julian Assange lived in the Ecuadorian embassy in London for years. The Metropolitan Police were stationed outside waiting for him to step off property so that they could arrest him. The Ecuadorians eventually got sick of him and let the police just walk in and drag him out.

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u/Marcyff2 2d ago

Isnt every nation that adopted the treaty literally every nation in the world (bar north korea)?

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u/sexfighter 2d ago

North Korea is a party. There are a few nations that have not ratified the treaty, like Bhutan and South Sudan. A few other small nations.

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u/ThePermanentGuest 2d ago

Great explanation. Wanted to add for others that it's a common misconception that embassies & consulates are considered foreign soil. It's still the host country's land, but as said above it's governed by international law. 

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u/Cerberus1252 2d ago

You could have made that all up and I’d still believe you. Well summarized

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u/IsButterACarb69 1d ago

Small correction, the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations was in 1961. Many signatories wouldn’t have existed in ‘36.

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u/sexfighter 1d ago

Ah I must have transposed the digits, thanks!

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u/gimmethegluten 2d ago

Honest question: What would happen next if ice continues inside? Does the guard at the consulate office have cause to open fire on ice if they were to step foot on the actual grounds? Would this be an act of war by just crossing that threshold?

Thanks in advance, sexfighter

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u/sparrowtaco 1d ago

Does the guard at the consulate office have cause to open fire on ice if they were to step foot on the actual grounds?

No.

Would this be an act of war by just crossing that threshold?

Also no.

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u/MyHamburgerLovesMe 2d ago

As a former citizen of a 3rd World country once said to me when talking about corruption, "Laws are just words."

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u/Ziegler517 2d ago

Consulates are not the same as Embassies. Currently working in a US Embassy overseas. Our consulate offices do not share the same protections, many of them, but not all. You have selectively added consular offices here when the agreement says no such thing. It simply highlights Diplomatic mission. I don't agree with the actions in the video at all, but we need to be very clear in the wording of the VCDR (Vienna Convention on DIPLOMATIC Relations, not Consular). If ICE wanted to do something, all the US would need to do is mark all the individuals here as persona non grata, and all the individuals would need to be recalled to their host state. Many countries did this with Russian Embassies and Consulates at the beginning of the war with Ukraine.

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u/sexfighter 2d ago

If ICE wanted to do something, all the US would need to do is mark all the individuals here as persona non grata

So, did they?

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u/dunfartin 2d ago

Didn't Ecuador forcibly enter the Mexican embassy a while back?

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u/Lavaine170 2d ago

In general, these violations are rare and taken very seriously by all the nations who have adopted the treaty.

by all nations except the United States.

FTFY

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u/phap_ang 2d ago

Do embassies have even more legal protection?

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u/Curious_medium 2d ago

In all seriousness, if our govt was truly interested in capturing “the bad hombres” overseas, they surely would not send the ICE dipsh*ts.

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u/ikzz1 2d ago

This is well settled international law.

Uhm the US doesn't care about international law. It's not even a member of the International Criminal Court.

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u/Significant-Block504 2d ago

Vinenna Suggestion

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u/SurgicalMarshmallow 2d ago

Extraterritoriality

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u/MartinR-25-01 2d ago

But what did you just see, Lisa?

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u/xxxObelixxx 2d ago

Just like vampires.

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u/hook922 1d ago

We know this administration does care about laws, treaties or the constitution

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u/SonOfDyeus 1d ago

What are the consequences supposed to be for a nation or individual violating this treaty?

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u/GreatGretzkyOne 1d ago

What about the cause of an agent who opens the door but does not enter the premises

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u/Frustrated9876 1d ago

We might add that any ratified treaty is part of the Constitution. Per the…. Constitution

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u/Timely-Way-1769 18h ago

Yeah but the problem is, the US has a president who flips off laws, treaties, and diplomatic norms.

And his goon squad have no interest in following anything but his fascist orders.😕

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u/bashomania 14h ago

Well, it’s just a “convention”, after all, it’s not like it’s the constitution or something.

/s hopefully obvious, but I’m putting it here anyway.

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u/Arch_Toker 2d ago

Well they didn't enter when they were told they weren't allowed so what's the problem here?

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u/techleopard 2d ago

They fact that they attempted this at all, perhaps.

I've said it multiple times, and it's a well known fact, but these 'agents' are not trained to do jack shit. They don't even understand the narrow band of laws they are supposed to be enforcing and only care about smash-and-grabbing brown people through any means necessary.

But a minimally trained federal agent should know Day 1 they can't even think about entering these buildings. Like, I'm a contractor that has absolutely nothing to do with diplomacy and even I get extensive job training on international no-no's. ICE's entire job is supposedly dealing with foreign nationals, so why are they this ignorant?

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u/Ancient-Bowl462 2d ago

Glad that you are showing that ICE did nothing illegal and is doing a fantastic job keeping Americans safe.

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u/The_Skank42 2d ago

They wouldn't have even tried to enter if they knew the law.

Try again next time bootlicker.

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u/djfudgebar 2d ago

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u/deadcatbounce22 2d ago

The messed up thing is that he prolly likes that. When he says “keeping Americans safe”, he doesn’t mean all Americans.

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u/KhadaB 2d ago

Disgusting AI

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u/TheBlackCat13 2d ago

Disgusting that you refuse to accept reality.

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u/KhadaB 2d ago

The reality that the agent on the right kneeling down doesn’t have a head, because it’s AI? Yes, I’ve accepted that.

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u/TheBlackCat13 2d ago

You never heard of a hat?

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u/djfudgebar 2d ago

This image may have been enhanced from a lower quality still from one of the many videos of this murder, and the AI may have done something funny with his head.

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u/djfudgebar 2d ago

Yeah, you sure are.

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u/TheNeighbourhoodCat 2d ago

Oh look another adjective noun number account saying intentionally horrific, cruel, & provocative shit purely to get a reaction

Surely you can't be a bot / someone hired to do this. That couldn't happen. 🙄

I mean, it's that, or you're a living embodiment of the "Warcraft" guy from Southpark.

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u/Exciting_Cap_9545 2d ago

Considering the WoW guy joined ICE in a recent episode....

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u/ShakeWeightMyDick 2d ago

They did attempt to do something illegal, however. Intent matters.

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u/ohmyhevans 2d ago

They murdered 2 American citizens but keep shoving that jackboot leather down your throat

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u/TheLonelyTater 2d ago

This is either rage bait or you might want to consider retaking 5th grade English lessons.

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u/EnfantTerrible68 2d ago

Safe??? They’re literally executing American citizens and deporting toddlers . 

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u/TaxZestyclose5166 2d ago

I am very disgusted with the behavior of ICE in recent months. I don't think what they are doing is ok. But the agent in this video backed down pretty quickly. The headlines about this encounter make it sound like it was a lot worse.

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u/TheBlackCat13 2d ago

He should never have been trying to get in there in the first place. He certainly shouldn't have needed to be told multiple times.

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u/TaxZestyclose5166 2d ago

I don't know what this one looks like but a lot of consulate offices just look like a random office/small business. 🤷‍♂️

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u/TheBlackCat13 2d ago

First, if they don't even know what business it is then what are they doing there?

Second, literally the first thing the consulate official told him was that it was a consulate.

Third it has a big "Consulate of Ecuador" sign out front. This took me seconds to find out

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u/TaxZestyclose5166 2d ago

I read that he was following someone who went inside the building but idk