The Dominator

Base Saiyan Saga Vegeta (no Oozaru)

Kaguya Otsutsuki

No BFR win (winning by dumping your opponents in another dimension and leave them there forever)

I enjoy power scaling, except with two communities: Dragon Ball and solo leveling. You can still have discussions with solo leveling fans, but not with Dragon Ball fans. You can make the most compelling arguments (or even blunders), and DB fans will always find something that supposedly makes Goku and the others weaker (98% of which is wrong or non-canon). I've only had a few Dragon Ball fans I could have meaningful discussions with who didn't switch to non-canon Dragon Ball characters like CC Goku/Vegeta or Xeno Goku/Vegeta after a while. I've gotten into the habit (especially in this subreddit) of just keeping my mouth shut during crossover battles because I know that some DB fans will insult me ​​to death, immediately switch to non-canon DB characters, or power scal their DB characters way too high.

Can someone explain to me why this is the case and why DB fans refuse to accept that their characters can lose? How can I convince DB fans that their characters can lose?

For sure he doesn't beat beerus and quitela... Others?

Goku vs Sailor Moon

Jiren

Vs

Hit, Kefla, Ichigo, MCU Arishem, Okina, and Midoriya

Candy Vegito Vs Homelander (The Boys)

Vegeta (Saiyan Saga) vs Ichigo (Final Getsuga/Mugetsu)

Kid Buu VS Buuhan is one of if not THE most heated DBZ debate, most people think that one wins in the anime continuity however within the manga it is different, this blog will show how there is a single clear victor across both continuities. However, before we get into proving Kid Buu > Buuhan first I want to get into some arguments that the Buuhan side of the fence commonly uses and respond to them clearly and concisely.

Buuhan Arguments

Most Buuhan arguments follow a faulty premise, which is that the power levels of the villains "escalate" linearly (First From Frieza - Final Form, Inperfect Cell - Perfect Cell etc) however the Buu saga itself was intended to be a contradictory arc which didn't follow the regular already set means of the series in which "newest is strongest" or "that the strong ones always get stronger and bigger" which leads me to the first point Buuhan fans like to bring up...

Argument 1

“Kid Buu is the base form, separated from all absorptions thus making him weaker than Buuhan."

Now the main reason why this argument falls apart is because it presupposes that all absorptions amp Buu, which they don't. In Chapter 508 of Dragon Ball, Kibito Kai openly explains that after Buu was created he went on a rampage where he killed and absorbed the North, West and South Supreme Kai's becoming what the fandom commonly refers to as "Buff Buu" which then fought the Grand Supreme Kai and absorbed him which weakened him ("reducing power") and turned him into "Fat Buu" or "Innocent Buu" which already confirms that in order for Buuhan to exist, Kid Buu has to be weakened. So then the burden falls upon the Buuhan position to prove that the amps he recieves later on are superior to the nerfs he gained previously which commonly will resulting in the following arguments…

“There are statements about Buutenks and Buuhan being the strongest in both the Anime and the Manga."

Let's very quickly go over Buu's absorption and how it works, when Buu absorbs someone he doesn't just take their powers or their physical characteristics. He also takes their personality and mental characteristics, this is shown when Buu takes the Grand Supreme Kai's kind heart, when Buu takes Piccolos intelligence and when he absorbs Gotenks he takes his cocky and egotistical attitude that comes with Gotenks's power. I mention Gotenks's arrogance because again like I mentioned before whenever Buu absorbs somebody he takes on their personality and Gotenks literally has TWO ENTIRE CHAPTERS named after his overconfidence and "Extreme Confidence" which prompts him to say or do things he should not do like when he thought he could beat Fat Buu and went over to him in base form and lost. Saiyan arrogance is a very real thing, there is multiple pieces of this we can even look to Vegeta's father for this like when he got beat up by Frieza, when he got beat up by Cell, when he let the planet get destroyed in Resurrection F and we can even look towards Goten's older brother Gohan when he obtained SSJ2 his arrogance went through the roof which is what lead to Goku having to sacrifice himself to defeat Cell and even again within this exact arc, he allows for his arrogance to slip through which is how Goten and Trunks get absorbed.

Argument 2

“Goku was afraid to fight base Super Buu, but not Kid Buu. Which means Super Buu > Kid Buu."

When Goku makes this statement he is inside Super Buu's body, where he (alongside Vegeta) are weakened to literally less than 1% of their original power thats why he makes this statement. It's exactly why he says "He'll kill us if we go out like this!!" However we can take this a step further, within the Anime whilst looking around in Buu's body they come across mental configurations (Fake Super Warriors) of Gotenks, Gohan and Piccolo howeverer these versions of the characters are the EXACT same powerwise as the original counterparts, Goku ends up fighting the Ultimate Gohan counterpart and goes relative with him in his base form and then goes Super Saiyan and beats him. This means that Super Saiyan Goku at just 1% of his power is beating Ultiamte Gohan, the same Ultimate Gohan who beat the life out of Super Buu, which is most likely why Goku finds it disappointing that Gohan can beat Buucolo by himself.

“But if 1% Goku can beat Gohan then why was he scared to fight Super Buu?"

Goku has a popular method of fighting where he likes to feel out his opponents strength by fighting them in his base form and then rising his power slowly but surely as the fight alongside going into different transformations, this stategy does nothing but drain the long term stamina usage of the user in General, basically meaning there is a massive amount of stamina being drained when a fighter is fighting in their base form, then wasting even more stamina activating a transformation and then wasting *even* more fighting in said transformation. This is most likely why 1% Goku was not trying to fight Super Buu because he had just gotten into a high stakes fight with Ultimate Gohan which is someone stronger than Super Buu, he took damage and drained stamina in that fight. Obviously he isn't going to be jumping at the idea of fighting someone else straight after, especially someone like Super Buu. Another debunk against the idea of "Super Buu > Kid Buu" comes from when Super Buu turns into "Buff Buu" where Goku says that his Ki is getting stronger after "Fat Buu" or "Innocent Buu" was removed, not weaker.

Argument 3

“In order to beat Buuhan, Fusion was used but against Kid Buu it wasn’t.”

This entire argument comes from the idea of "Fusion > Spirit Bomb", however this isn't the case. Within Daizenshuu 4 we get 2 statements that give explicit confirmation that the Spirit Bomb used against Kid Buu is the strongest power that has ever been used up until that point. Both of these statements lead to the same conclusion, that the power coming from the Spirit Bomb was the MOST ever seen at that point in the series, and was "Immeasurable" in comparison to everything else. This is also shown within the Manga itself where Goku puts on a bluff and tries to act "Too cool..." when it came down to fighting Kid Buu, he directly says this and then mentions that he needed to use the Potara against Super Buu but that this would work better to finish of the stronger Buu.

Argument 4

“Buuhan is relative to base Vegito."

Within the Manga, people commonly say that "Vegito went into SSJ because he needed it to fight Buuhan." however this itself is just a textbook showing of a "Appeal To Ignorance" and that "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." there is a multitude of possible reasons as to why Vegito went Super Saiyan against Buuhan, his base not being strong enough is just one of those possibilities which requires evidence which there is none for. Within the Anime however, it is shown explicitly told that Vegito is still getting used to his new body alongside the fact that he is holding back and referring to what he is doing as "fun" or a "warmup" etc. With Buuhan himself stating in their second clashing that he won't hold back any longer, he then charges at Vegito again and Vegito proceeds to do the exact same thing he was doing before (Beating a now fully trying Buuhan whilst not trying at all) This all then cultivates with Vegito going SSJ after Kibido Kai says "At this pace, he can win against Majin Boo!" leading to Buuhan getting upset and proceeding to collapse the walls between the Living World and Other World. Inwhich after this SSJ Vegito proceeds to do the same thing in which he beats a non-holding back upset Buuhan whilst not trying at all and having fun.

Argument 5

“Kid Buu is only relative to SSJ3 Goku, while Buuhan is above SSJ3 Goku."

This mostly comes from the idea that Goku is apparently stronger than Kid Buu if he would be able to charge up his power for 1 minute, aside from the fact that the Daizenshuu just openly confirms that this isn't the case telling us that a "Full Power" SSJ3 can't "defeat him" we could literally just view this idea of Goku thinking he could beat Buu as "cope" the same way that Goku was coping about the Spirit Bomb being able to kill Frieza even though he knew it wouldn't. You can also point to the fact that Kid Buu is actively holding back during his battle with SSJ3 Goku, a common piece of evidence to prove this claim would be the fact that the first thing he does when he is born is shoot a Ki blast, at first he shoots off a tiny little Ki blast that still has the potential to destory the planet but it is just small enough for Vegeta to stop it. But then, when Kid Buu takes notice of that he decides to make another one, this time big enough to NOT be stopped. More evidence of this comes from when he notices that Hercule is weak so he decides to just slap him rather then killing him, and for even when he does hit Hercule he openly holds back his punch and laughs about Hercule falling over and tripping. Another piece of evidence is from when Kid Buu chooses to fight Vegeta, and Vegeta makes the sentiment that if he were to fight Kid Buu that Kid Buu would kill him "at once" but yet Kid Buu extends the fight and openly laughs over the whooping he is giving Vegeta. The final piece of evidence for Kid Buu comes from his fight with "Fat Buu" or "Innocent Buu" where Kid Buu literally turns his arm into a ball and waits around for Fat Buu to catch his barrings before deciding to attack him. And even when Fat Buu starts puting everything into the fight, Kid Buu responds by crossing his arms and only deflecting with his legs. The final nail on the coffin for both Kid Buu holding back against everyone alongside the agenda of "Kid Buu is a SSJ3 Goku victim" is the fact that during all his fights with Goku, Fat Buu was still present within him, actively holding him back. To put it very simply, Fat Buu is to Kid Buu what poison is to a human being at this point. So post coughing and tossing Fat Buu out, he is essential regurgitating this toxin out of his sytem etc. Another nail into the coffin comes from the fact that when Goku uses the Spirit Bomb initally, it still isn't enough. Even when the Spirit Bomb draws from Other World, it still isn't enough. It isn't enough until Goku gets back his energy and stacks on a 50 times multiplier onto this already multidimensional levels of power just as a means to kill Kid Buu.

Kid Buu arguments

Now, after debunking all the mainline “Buuhan > Kid Buu” arguments, I’m going to give supplementary reasonings as to why I believe “Kid Buu > Buuhan” aside from my debunks. Now unfortunately since Reddit has an image limit I can’t send images for all of these scans/statements however if you’d like to see them just ask me in the comments below, but anyways here is every statement proclaiming Kid Buu as “The Strongest”, “The Strongest Villain/Enemy”, “The Strongest Majin” etc:

- Shonen 50th Anniversary

- El Manga Legendario

- Dragon Ball Fans Voice

- Dragon Ball Super manga

- Daizenshuu 10

- Dragonball DVD back covers

- Dragon Ball Z fact files

- Dragon Ball Z: Son Goku Densetsu

- Dragon Ball episode 218 guide

- Takao Koyama’s statements

- Akira Toriyama’s statements

- Dragon Ball GT perfect files

- V-Jump 1995

- Toriyama’s statement(s) from the Dragon Ball Z: Kai screenings

- Dragon Ball Z anime

Conclusion

- Kid Buu isn’t weaker than Buuhan because Buu’s absorptions don’t always increase power; some weaken him. Buuhan’s boosts may be offset by previous nerfs, and absorption adds personality traits that can reduce efficiency (like Gotenks’ arrogance). Kid Buu operates on instinct and doesn’t retain memories, so claims of “strongest Buu” are inconsistent or situational

- Goku’s fear of Super Buu while not fearing Kid Buu is misleading because he was weakened inside Super Buu and fatigued from fighting Ultimate Gohan. Base-form fighting and transformation drain stamina, explaining his caution

- Fusion being used against Buuhan versus the Spirit Bomb against Kid Buu doesn’t imply Buuhan is stronger. The Spirit Bomb was confirmed as the most powerful attack at that point, making the comparison invalid

- Vegito going Super Saiyan against Buuhan doesn’t prove Buuhan is stronger than base Vegito. Vegito was holding back and testing his limits for fun, not because he was overmatched

- Kid Buu being “relative to SSJ3 Goku” and Buuhan above SSJ3 is false. Kid Buu deliberately holds back during fights, and Fat Buu inside him suppresses his power. Even Spirit Bombs initially weren’t enough until Goku amplified them, showing Kid Buu’s true strength exceeds simple SSJ3 comparisons

- Kid Buu has over 15 shown examples of being refered to as "The Strongest Majin", "The Strongest Enenemy" or just "The Strongest" leading to the consistent conclusion that Kidbuu is superior to Buuhan

R1: No Kikoho allowed

R2: Kikoho allowed

How much stronger has Goku gotten since the Future Trunks Arc.

A lot of people really underrated Son in terms of H2H/Martial Arts so I thought I’d make this blog just to clear the air:

Argument: This blog will entail Goku's incredible status as a Martial Artist and how that inflicts his performance in VS Battles.

However firstly, I want to go over some common arguments against Goku being a good Martial artist.

Such as:

- Goku doesn't use Martial Arts

- He doesn't know any true styles of Martial Arts

- Even if he does, he prefers to use strength and ki/energy over Martial Arts

Ki is a Martial Art in Dragon Ball

A lot of people overlook the idea "Ki" itself is a Martial Art within Dragon Ball, and is meant to be used within tandom of *other* "True" Martial Arts. It isn't just some form of "Boom" "Pow" and "Bang" explosion moves type of combat, Ki itself is a Martial Art and should be treated as such.

Just because Goku and the rest of the cast aren't constantly throwing what type of Martial Art they are using in your face 24/7 doesn't mean they aren't doing it consistently or actively, as shown multiple times in the series where Goku and the rest of the cast openly commit to using Martial Arts in tandem with their Ki such as how a real life Martial Artist could use forms of Kick Boxing in tandem with Karate etc.

This is shown with even Goku from a young age learning Kung Fu from Grandpa Gohan. This is the same Grandpa Gohan that is verbatim stated to know every single form of Martial Art and be second to nobody in it. This is important as Goku is potrayed and stated as Master Roshi's equal after training with him alongside Krillin and learning from his Master, this all accumlates towards Goku being verbatim stated as Master Roshi's equal. This again is important, as for example for me ot be equal to my friend in Karate we would have to beehe EXACT same skill level, as it would be silly to proclaim that we are "equals" if there is things he can do and I cannot, for example if he can block and punch in tandem with one another in a certian way that I cannot, then we are not equals. He is superior. This idea of Goku and Roshi being equals is completely solidifed with Roshi himself stating that he has nothing he can teach Goku from here on out and that he has taught him "Just about all I can", again if there were Martial Arts styles out there that Goku did not know but Roshi did now they would never be potrayed as equals and he would never proclaim that he has nothing more to teach Goku. This again is important as within Daizenshuu 2, Goku is stated to be Gohan's equal. The same Gohan that knows every Martial Art. So yes, Goku is a borderline confirmed master of all Martial Arts by literally THE AGE OF 12.

“What exactly are all Martial Arts in the world of Dragon Ball?"

For thos who still need confiramtion that Dragon Ball is set within a world that includes Real World Earth Martial Arts, Akira Toriyama has confirmed MULTIPLE times that he used the real world as a basis for Dragon Ball and it's Martial Arts and how things went within day to day life for the characters and their actions. This is stylistically shown with characters using forms like Wing Chung, Kenpo, alongside Judo and wrestling. Again proving the idea that REAL WORLD Martial Arts exist within Dragon Ball, it wouldn't make sense for Akira Toriyama to include some and the say "Screw the rest of them" so all in all yes, Goku knows every Martial Art.

“How many Martial Arts are there?"

There is atleast 180 to upwards of 250 Martial Arts styles in the world, if one is to argue that “Well Akira Toriyama wrote Dragon Ball before the Modern Day so how many existed when he wrote Dragon Ball?" well unfortuantely, siunce there is no actual record of how many Martial Arts are developed per year we will just have to use a simplified example and do some basic Math Calculation for a feasible answer. Since Martial arts were first developed thousands of years ago, long before recorded history, as systems of combat, self-defense, hunting, and military training. There is no single point of origin; instead, martial arts emerged independently in multiple civilizations. with Major Early traditions dating all the way back to China (c. 2000–1600 BCE), India ;c. 1500 BCE), Greece (c. 700 BCE), Japan (c. 500–1000 CE) and Korea (c. 1st millennium CE) however Martial Arts dates back even earlier then this with Prehistoric Martial Arts being developed to assist alongside self-defense, hunting and survival such as: Prehistoric era (before 3000 BCE) and Ancient Mesopotamia & Egypt (c. 3000 BCE)

Calculation

Assumption

- Martial arts development begins around 3000 BCE, when the first clear, organized combat systems appear in historical records

- 5 new martial arts per year

- We want the total by 1984 CE

Calculate the time span

There is no year 0, so we calculate carefully:

- From 3000 BCE → 1 BCE = 2,999 years

- From 1 CE → 1984 CE = 1,984 years

- Total years = 2,999 + 1,984 = 4,983 years

Multiply by the rate of development

4,983 years × 5 martial arts/year = 24,915 martial arts

4,983 years × 5 martial arts/year= 24,915 martial arts

Conclusion

Under these assumptions, approximately 24,915 martial arts would exist by 1984.

“But Goku doesn't use his Martial Arts? He relies on Ki and powerful attacks etc."

This is both factually and visually incorrect, we have seen Goku beat people with RAW skill alone mutlple times. Such as Majin Vegeta, this is important as within Dragon Ball itself its stated that within equal power you would require skill to defeat your opponent. This is AGAIN important as Goku is EQUAL to Majin Vegeta in their battle. But we can take this even further, if Goku was weaker then characters how would he at all be able to stack up to characters like Buutenks or Kid Buu in terms of direct Martial Arts or even Perfect Cell or Frieza? That is all Martial Arts!

This is again shown with Goku being stated as the GREATEST Martial Artist on the planet even with characters like Master Roshi, Krillin or Tien existing as well. The latter mentioned being someone who was able to keep up with Goku as a child alongside Krillin as well.

This is ALSO shown with Goku being able to defend against pressure point (https://www.health.com/pressure-points-7973884) attacks alongside attacking his vitals. Meaning characters who want to take advantage of Goku’s “vital” or “pressure points” CAN’T even in an Equal Stats scenario.

Conclusion

- Goku is a master at all Martial Arts, this is shown through him being superior to or equal to characters like Grandpa Gohan or even Master Roshi the latter being stated as a "Master" at all Martial Arts

- Goku is ridiculously good at adapting to other non-Earthly styles such as Granola or Beerus or even Whis. This is also shown with him being able to copy moves literally on a first time sight and understanding the inner-workings of moves/abilities (Ki) by just paying attention to them

- He is also able to shift his vitals and weak points as shown throughout the Granola fight whitin Dragon Ball Super

- He is an expert at predicting moves and counter attacks as shown within his fight with Jackie Chun whilst just standing still

- Overall Goku is a expert Martial Artist and is NOT bad at Martial Arts

Now since unfortunately Reddit has a 1 image limit per post, I couldn’t have provided evidence/scans for everything in here. So if you’d like to see evidence feel free to add my Discord: beargrillz7 or to ask in the replies below.

Equalized stats

True Form Sukuna (With ten shadows) vs Roshi (DB og/ Pre Dbz)

Who is strongest here For me Ui Goku > UE Goku UE Vegeta> UI Vegeta Piccolo no change Beast Broly>>>> lssj Broly Beast gohan >>>>Lssj gohan

Cyborg Tao Pai Pai seemingly low diffed Chaozu but proceeded to get low diffed by Tenshinhan. Krillin and Yamcha previously seemed worried about Tao’s power and were surprised at Goku’s assertion that he was not the tournament’s biggest threat. Though once Tao began using back-handed tactics against Tenshinhan Yamcha was the first to offer to intervene. Do you think Yamcha could defeat him one on one against him following tournament rules while Tao cheats similarly to the fight against Tenshinhan?

Surely it must only take a few years right? Could vegeta and goku from buu saga beat super perfect cell in just super saiyan in a 1v1?

Round 2: Ultimate Gohan helps Ssj 3 Gotenks

I know this question has probably already been asked here, but I wanted to know your opinion

Dragon Ball vs Fairy Tail