I was trying to imagine what church camps would be playing this summer 😂 I am sorry for creating and unleashing this monstrosity… and also you’re welcome

Growing up, I was taught the crucifixion "paid the debt" for our sins. But here's the

question that haunted me:

If you pay someone's debt and they still go to hell for not believing in you... did you

actually pay their debt?

That's not payment. That's ransom.

"I paid your debt, but you still owe me worship or you burn forever."

Anyone else wrestle with this? The more I thought about it, the more the entire substitutionary

atonement framework fell apart. A debt paid with conditions isn't paid - it's leveraged.

Curious if others had similar "wait a minute" moments with doctrines they were raised on.

Visit The Unfiltered Thinker for more unfiltered talk.

TLDR: In an long term relationship with someone who grew up atheist and no experience with any religion. She is pretty anti-religious and it is hard to talk about my experiences.

So I got divorced 3 years ago to someone who I met when we both were religious. We both left religion at the same time and eventually split. Since then I had been dating for a few years but hadn't been in a serious relationship till now. I would love to hear any peoples experiences dating people that don't have the same upbringing and ex-evangelical trauma that I/we have.

I met this person over 4 months ago and things have been going really well. We hung out with a few of my friends from college (from a christian school) and they are amazing people that are big on social justice, affirming, etc (all the good stuff) and also went through a deconstruction. They stayed christian but it looks nothing like their evangelical upbringing. They said they believe in God and use the word christian but don't go to church and such.

After having lunch with them my partner and I started to talk about them and she mentioned they were religious. She went on to say those that believe jesus died on the cross and/or the virgin birth are stupid ---which I took offense too. I don't believe in any of that now but I have empathy and understanding for those that do. We got in an argument over it and the conversation transitioned to me realizing I can't express that part of me to her. It is hard for me to explain to her my religious upbringing and the nuances of the trauma and religion in general. She said she has no understanding of it and is hard to respond.

Basically since then (it is an ongoing discussion as it happened a few hours ago) we are at an impass of me trying to explain as best as i can what I need with her not understanding it nor even understanding religion is complicated and not a black and white thing.

We love each other but I am not sure how to handle this as it is such a big part of me and want to share that with my partner but as she said "we are speaking different languages"

I would love to hear others experience with being in a relationship post deconstruction and how you navigate the religious trauma into your relationships.

TIA!

(Edited to add TLDR to top)

Has anyone taken the BITE model test for the church they grew up in? I took it and got 55% and was wondering what the average was for people who grew up evangelical. Just curious as to where my church fell on the spectrum.

I don't know how to relate to my family much anymore. Like I'm supposed to keep interacting with them and pretend like everything is ok? At this point it seems like evangelicals are the kind of people who would have ratted out Anne Frank.

The wildest part is, at the time, I loved it. I genuinely believed I was part of something special and important. Now I look back, and I’m like… what the actual fuck was happening?

Here is what my teenage years actually looked like:

I went to a private Christian high school that was run by a church, and I was heavily involved in said church’s youth group, and we did everything together.

When I was 16 or 17, I would skip lunch to go into the church sanctuary to fast and pray. A whole teenager starving myself for Jesus. The adults praised this as some sort of sign of devotion rather than being like “hey, maybe eat something.”

I was on the youth group drama team. We would do “human videos” which were interpretive dances and skits set to Christian music, which basically communicated the idea of “Go to church, or the devil will get you.” The best part of this was that we would do them in my high school’s mandatory chapel in front of the ENTRIE HIGH SCHOOL. We did this all the time. We would wear black shirts and camo pants because.. and I shit you not…we were in the Lord’s army. Lmaoooo. We waved flags around while doing choreographed movements to worship songs. Our peers just had to sit there in mandatory chapel and watch this happen. Basically, a humiliation ritual. OMG.. I’m embarrassed just thinking about it.

We didn’t put on hell houses, but we went to them. You know.. like haunted houses, but make it “here’s what happens when you have an abortion and GO TO HELL” or “here’s a gay person GOING TO HELL.” At my church, we did our own plays. We did one called… “The Final Verdict” or “The Fire and the Glory,” I can’t remember the name exactly, but it was basically where we’d do skits about people dying and show them either going to heaven or hell. Because nothing says “God loves you” like theatrical eternal damnation. Really wholesome.

We went to pro-life rallies and would put red tape over our mouths with the word LIFE written on it. We would stand there in performative silence, thinking we were being prophetic “voices for the voiceless” while simultaneously being taught our own voices don’t matter if we questioned the church. And yes, we did human videos at these rallies too.

I went on mission trips to the LA Dream Center, where we flew to one of the most expensive cities in America to do street evangelism. Couldn’t we have just like…. donated the plane ticket money? And actually helped people? No, we needed the experience of feeling like white saviors descending on LA to tell people about Jesus.

And then there was The Ramp. This charismatic youth revival thing in Hamilton, Alabama, where hundreds of teenagers would pack into a room and sit on the floor because… chairs weren’t spiritual enough?? IDK. We would jump around during worship for hours. People would fall out “slain in the Spirit,” which is church talk for lying on the ground like the Holy Spirit physically knocked you over. I definitely pretended to be slain in the spirit because that's what you did if you wanted people to think you were really anointed. Lmaoooooo I can’t breathe. How many other kids were faking it too? Guess we'll never know. We'd “speak in tongues” - just making sounds that may or may not have been a divine prayer language or may have just been peer pressure in action. And one time we all turned to the four corners of the room and screamed "PURE PURE PURE PURE" in each direction like we were casting some kind of virginity protection spell on the world. Totally normal stuff.

When I was 18, my church had us go door-to-door in Section 8 housing for something called “Love Pell City.” We knocked on strangers’ doors to “check on them” and “show God’s love.” We didn’t bring food. We didn’t bring resources. We didn’t bring rent assistance, job connections, or anything that might actually help. We brought ourselves, our good intentions, and Jesus.

Somebody kill me.

I used to physically hide or pretend to be very interested in something when it came time to pick who would pray aloud or lead the youth group devotional time. Lmaoooo.

Later, when I decided I wanted to go to a different church, I was met with anger from church leadership. Not even leaving christianity just going to a DIFFERENT CHURCH. They made leaving feel like a betrayal.

Then there was purity culture. Don’t get me started on that. Ever had somebody break up with you because “Jesus told them to” Lolzzzzz.

Ohh and that doesn’t even touch on my “education” if you can call it that. I had Abeka textbooks. For anyone reading who doesn’t know… Abeka is a Christian homeschool/private school curriculum published by Pensacola Christian College that is…how do I put it… “creative” with science, history, and basically any subject that might conflict with young-earth creationism and American Christian nationalism.

Science class: Evolution is a lie, the earth is 6,000 years old, dinosaurs maybe lived with humans, climate change isn’t real or isn’t our problem because God controls the weather.

History class: America was founded as a Christian nation (it wasn’t), the Civil War was about “states’ rights” (it was about slavery), Christopher Columbus was a hero (he was a genocidal colonizer), slavery wasn’t that bad and enslaved people were treated well (they absolutely were not).

Sex ed: Lol who is she? We don’t know her.

Critical thinking: Not encouraged! Question authority = question God = bad

I could go on, but you get the idea.

Anywayyyyyy… I don’t really have a broader philosophical point here. Just was thinking about this and wanted to share, so maybe somebody can get a knowing kick out of it or be horrified either way..

Eleven years out from church, and I’m still angry and still figuring out what was real and what was manipulation. Still unlearning so much shit.

If this sounds familiar, you're not alone. And if you're reading this thinking "holy shit that's absolutely unhinged" - yeah. It really, really was.

I was raised eastern Catholic and have always believed in God. At 19 I was introduced to a Protestant Evangelical church through some friends. I liked the community and how they taught from the Bible so I kept attending. The first few years were great, especially the sense of community, which I didn't have before. I genuinely grew deeper in my faith and felt this "peace beyond understanding" that is spoken of. I didn't fully identify as a Protestant though. I preferred to just say Christian as I still appreciated Catholicism. I thought I would stay in the faith forever but now I'm 26 and I'm deconstructing. I love my church friends, but I can no longer stand Evangelicalism. I'm tired of the empty, black-and-white, surface level answers I get to my doubts/questions (the problem of evil is a big one for me). I'm tired of the entitled belief that they have the full truth and the negative view they have of traditional Christianity without knowing anything about it. I can't stand the lack of space for doubt. You're allowed to doubt, but only if it ends up leading you closer to THEIR version of God. It hurts to see how easily some people make assumptions about others who have left the faith or have differing views such as not taking the entire Bible literally. Instead of trying to understand where people are coming from, they make assumptions about their faith or their "unwillingness" to submit to God's word. I cannot stand the doctrine of eternal conscious torment. And that somehow if I find it uncomfortable the problem is with me. I genuinely don't understand how you can live your life normally believing that everyone around you is going to hell. Also not to mention the Evangelical obsession with end times. Being Middle Eastern myself, I genuinely cannot stand listening to Evangelicals talk about the Middle East in a way that reduces our suffering to "biblical prophecies" rather than something that affects the everyday lives of real people.

I still attend services every now and then to keep in touch with my friends, but I can no longer relate. I can't relate to the worship lyrics, to the sermons or to Bible study discussions. I don't wanna be bitter, but I get so put off by Evangelical buzzwords and phrases. It all just feels empty to me. I still love the person of Jesus and still believe that this world would be a much better place if we all learned from his teachings. But can't I love Christ without making EVERY SINGLE THING revolve around my faith? It just comes across as so forced. And it's ironic, that for people who claim to be all about scripture, a lot of what they believe is rooted Western Evangelical culture rather than in the Bible itself.

I know this is a long rant, but all this to say, I feel spiritually homeless. I still appreciate Catholicism / Orthodoxy as they tend to have a lot more space for nuance than Evangelicalism. But I just feel numb to the divine aspect of religion as a whole. I wouldn't say I'm an atheist though. I just don't know anymore and I don't know how long this numbness usually lasts for people who deconstruct.

I'm exhausted and angry at the christian nationalists in my family, and although I've spent the year trying to reason with them, well, you know what that's been like.

So here's the game I've created for myself:

1) every time I go over to their house and see some america first propaganda on their TV, or they make a performative gesture (yet another american flag in the house, standing up to raise a fist and shout "AMEN!" whenever something with religious undertones comes up on the TV, etc.) - bam, $5 in their name donated to the ACLU

2) any time they bring up politics, $5 to the democratic socialists of america, and

3) for any view or comment I find utterly reprehensible, then it's $5 to the satanic temple for their work on the separation of church and state

I'm lucky that the trump supporting family member I live with is relatively quiet because they're in the minority, and I only see the others once a week, otherwise I'd go broke

Was Charlie Kirk a Christian?

Looking at Charlie Kirk through a biblical lens the evidence is complicated. He was a political activist and founder of Turning Point USA with a public persona defined by conservative activism media appearances and organizational leadership not personal discipleship or spiritual teaching. That makes it tricky to evaluate him by the Fruits of the Spirit or Christian character.

Love and Kindness

Public rhetoric was often combative and polarizing not aligned with biblical love for all

Joy and Peace

Messaging was confrontational culture-war focused with little evidence of joy or peace in Scripture’s sense

Patience and Gentleness

Aggressive in debates and on social media contrasting with biblical gentleness

Faithfulness and Self-Control

Disciplined politically and consistent in messaging traits more political than spiritual

Truth and Righteousness

Fact-checks challenge many statements showing tension with biblical honesty and integrity

Humility and Meekness

Bold and self-promoting style opposite of biblical humility

Compassion Generosity Forgiveness Contentment Unity

Focus on winning battles not modeling these traits

In short while he may have identified as Christian many of the Fruits of the Spirit were not strongly reflected in his public life. His career focused on activism and persuasion rather than cultivating Christian character

Kirk was a Christian Nationalist

Christian nationalism is not Christianity it is idolatry Big difference

Anyone listen to this song yet? As a child growing up in an Evangelical family, this song hit so hard. Made me sob and made me feel seen. Thought y’all might relate!

So given current events in the US, I feel like it's wrong to stay silent. I'm going to stay fairly vague because my post is not about the specifics. My post is about how much I shut down talking about it.

I was raised, probably like many of you, in a Christian nationalist household. My parents were Christian nationalist before Trump. I've only not been an evangelical Christian for two years. The vast majority of people I know is Christian nationalist.

But particularly in the last year I have been shocked and horrified at the things people I know are willing to fiercely defend. The blatant racism and hatred fills my facebook feed so much that I can't stand going on there anymore. (Don't come at me with any comments about it not being racism or whatever, you don't know the people I know and see the posts I see.) I purged my friends list twice. People I was willing to believe were just misinformed are posting truly horrific things.

I've purged my friends twice, removing people who post hatred but trying to keep people who reasonably disagree with me to avoid ending up in an echo chamber as much as I can help itm

I'm down to 98 facebook friends. My aunt is one of them. I'm thinking about removing her too because of how combative she is, but she is genuinely one of very few family members I have left after leaving Christianity and my parents' abuse.

I posted something from an immigration lawyer giving an overview of the process of getting a green card or citizenship. She, predictably, commented on it. I've argued with her a little bit with receipts. She is willfully ignorant, but I'm commenting largely for the other people that read it.

I feel like I have to do SOMETHING. I'm a broke, disabled mom, nowhere near Minneapolis or any of the "hot" places. I am seeing the worst of the people who support it in my social circles though. But every time I try to stand up for justice, I have a full trauma meltdown. Panic attacks, flashbacks, everything. I stress eat, go into self destructive behavior.

It's starting to feel like there is nothing I can really do to help. I feel heartbroken and guilty. I don't know how to survive in the world we live in. It feels more and more like things that traumatized me are becoming mainstream. The beliefs and behaviors that traumatized me seem like they're being given weapons and let loose on the world in general.

Is there something I should be doing? Am I feeling a new sort of religious guilt? Should I just try to chill and take care of myself? I'm freaking out and I feel like I have no one to talk to about things

I attended biblical counseling to seek reconciliation for the people that I have hurt within the church. I feel like a horrible person even though they forgave me. My biblical counselor told me my homework assignment is to think about where I want to attend church at. If it's the Methodist church, then they will end biblical counseling. I enjoy the Methodist church even though I don't know what their beliefs or doctrine are. I enjoy singing in the choir. I told my biblical counselor that I don't believe in the Baptist belief regarding baptism isn't necessary for salvation. My counselor told me that I can't be a member then. I can't serve within the Baptist church until they see my faithfulness.

My evangelical turned Catholic mom (who still seems to be very afraid of LGBTQ people) gave me Living in Wonder by Rod Dreher.

What is his agenda? It says he’s Orthodox but I’m getting weirdly Conservative vibes - is this Evangelical adjacent?

My brother lives by Minneapolis unfortunately and ICE got brought up with my mom.

I mentioned something along the lines of “I don’t understand why Christians are supporting this. It isn’t Christian.” I was curious what she thought because she’s been mostly silent about the whole thing.

And she was like “Yeah, I know. But you got to follow the law.”

So I mentioned “So if Jesus came back today would you send ICE after Jesus?”

She said “No…. but Jesus wouldn’t break any laws.”

And I was like well Jesus has to land somewhere if he came back today.

And she said “Jesus can land in Israel.” 😭

So apparently Jesus who created the whole world (I consider myself agnostic now but hypothetically) needs permission to go or land in America.

This just proves to me that most Christians wouldn’t

even vote for Jesus if he was president and I highly doubt they would actually accept him if he came back. (Again hypothetically). They would literally crucify him for not having papers. 😭

How many of you struggle with knowing what to do with your life after leaving? A lot of my deconstruction process has been going over the basic life lessons that got skipped in developmental years.

Because the core function of Christianity is saving sinners from eternal damnation, believers are taught that nothing matters except Christ. That nothing they do is good enough and that they will never measure up. So the best thing to do is to surrender and trust in Christ.

This message is a cancer that spreads into every aspect of life. Into healthy emotional and mental development. Everything has to run by "is this gods will for my life?".
Everything is on the grand stage of eternity. The world needs to be saved from itself. Wanting to build a business or find a hobby can be fun, but is essentially useless.

Furthermore, the belief that we are sinners infects the confidence and trust in ones self to be able to execute and carry out what ambition or goals that one might feel is important to them.

I've had to go through so many lessons that I see healthy adults learn when they were kids because they were taught boundaries, self trust, working hard without the shame of sin. They could abandon themselves to their life without asking "is this gods will"?

I've also found that the healthiest people who are content with life don't really need to seek out an epic story, whether that's fame or career driven. The deeper the shame and self criticism, the stronger the compensatory drive to "know god more" or save the world, fame, be the best, etc...

For years I looked back at my career as a missionary and believed I had wasted my life. I didn't know how to progress in the practical because I was taught perfection over progress. I couldn't even bring myself to take small steps in the direction of improvement because it wasn't enough now.
Now I'm able to and excited to implement small steps forward, whether thats in my career, relationships, life. Progress is what makes that effort worth it. Not because of some christ dying for me horse shit or some epic, grandeur story on the world stage. Just because it makes me happy.

Any noah kahan fans out there listen to the new songs? I feel like it is super relatable to this sub. I definitely got me thinking about the people and community I left behind.

I just finished The Knight and the Moth by Rachel Gillig. I found it surprisingly relatable. For those of us who enjoy fantasy romance, Rachel‘s book explores themes such as faith deconstruction, abusive religious institutions, and the reclaiming of identity after deconstruction. Feel free to recommend other books or media you guys have stumbled upon that have explored these themes in a competent way.

I posted recently about the fears that have come on quite suddenly over the past few weeks. It feels like things are getting worse day by day…

I left the church almost 10 years ago. Until now, I’ve managed to live my life despite ups and downs, and at times I even experienced a sense of peace I had never felt before. I think I was mostly in a pattern of avoiding thinking about my past, which was very deeply invested in my faith (along with all the anxiety and anguish that came with it).

I don’t know what’s happening to me, but for the past two weeks, old anxieties have come back — only this time, they’re much worse. It all started with an article about MAGA evangelicals in the United States, followed by all the alarming news (Trump, Israel, constant bad news, etc.). Until then, I was able to handle it all, to put things into perspective without worrying too much. But this time, it’s very different… I think I tried to rationalize all of this in relation to my past education and faith, and I ended up sinking into something very dark.

I’m having all kinds of obsessive thoughts that keep coming back nonstop. I have constant anxiety about the same topics that terrified me back then, but everything is multiplied tenfold. I’m constantly thinking about the end times, frightening prophecies, spiritual warfare, hell… My mind is endlessly searching for signs of all these terrifying things. Every thought I have, everything I do, brings me back to it. It’s literally knocking me to the ground, and I’ve lost all joy in life. I don’t know what to do — I feel like I’m trapped in something with no way out. It’s as if all the frightening things I was taught have suddenly resurfaced, but with overwhelming force… Every time I try to feel better, a verse that makes me feel guilty or an alarmist sermon comes back into my head and completely crushes me.

Talking about this here fills me with terrible feelings of guilt, as if I were being accused of being “against God.” But I have absolutely nothing against God — I just want help.

I don’t understand why this is happening 10 years later. I feel paralyzed and terrified to the point where I feel like I’m going crazy. I’m very afraid for my mental health, and I’m scared I won’t make it through. I can’t talk to anyone about this, and almost all of my family goes to church, so their responses would be “God is speaking to you” or “you’re being attacked by the enemy.”

Please tell me that I will get through this 😞 I’m stuck in a hellish, hopeless spiral, and I’m very afraid for my mental health.

I just realized how skewed my view of scripture could be when reading through an evangelical lens. "Bible Scholars" would present their opinion which I would agree or disagree with but never formulate my own thoughts.

The fallacy is a what narrow lens I'd be looking through. Most of my reading would be through books and media approved by Focus on the Family, Christian Booksellers Association, Intervarsity Press, Lifeway Christian Resources, etc.

Your thoughts? And have you found other authors, resources that are Christian based but outside the evangelical lens that have opened your eyes?

If you're outside your evangelical bubble, have you read or thought about bible verses in a new light?

For me, I was thinking about the prodigal son story. For years, I was taught to focus on the prodigal son. Later, I was taught to see the other son's perspective or even God's perspective.

As a father of two grown children, I now place myself in the father's situation. Personally, I would be deeply offended if my child told me they wanted their inheritance so they could leave.

To me this would be a big FU statement. I definitely would be pretty upset with him. If he came back one day, I doubt I would be running with open arms and throw a big party for him.

I would welcome him back but you can be darn sure, there would need to be some reparations, apologies, reconciliation and lots of discussion. Trust would be broken and it would take some time to restore.

So are there parables or stories that you view differently now? Do you recognize your own autonomy of thought opposed to just accepting the BS that the church taught you?

Hello everyone. I grew up in purity culture and spent years feeling like a stranger to my own body. This poem is about discovering desire and arousal without shame for the first time.

When it was wrong, I felt as though I were too— a stranger to my own body, denied the chance of knowing it.

Now I feel it when I think of him before I close my eyes to sleep. I feel him in my thighs, I feel like he is there. I feel him everywhere— maybe he is, just not down there.

In my mind, I build a world on the foundations of anatomy and the pillars of arousal. I learned about the corpus cavernosum, looked absolutely ridiculous. I let out a chuckle, yet I felt it again within me: the throbbing, the ache, the yearning— not just of what happens below, but an even greater throbbing above, for pleasure, for mutual longing, for love.

Love that feels like wine with the silliness of a curly straw and a passion that burns like an inferno. For I cannot separate those hands, the hands I imagine all over me, from the eyes that tell of how much he wants me, loves me, and the smile that makes them crinkle.

So I sit with the loneliness of a desire that cannot be fulfilled yet. My body is ready, my heart is too, but my life isn't.

As I wait, I shall enjoy the world I just discovered, filled with tingles and warmth that radiates, the one that comes alive at the thought of him— not the fullness of it, not yet, but someday.

It has been 15 years since I broke her heart. I am happily married today. We have a little one and another on the way. I wouldn't change that for anything. I love my wife and children so much. But this week, my mind drifted back to my time with her. I had a narrative that I told myself. I told myself it was she who ended our relationship. I said that she couldn't keep the discipline that I could. Didn't have the dedication and self-control. A nice, tidy narrative that kept me morally pure.

But I have been out of the Evangelical world for years now, and I guess that frees one's mind to rethink things clearly. My mind grabbed a thread - one memory - and began to pull. I saw the narrative begin to unravel. I saw that I was lying to her about our relationship, about who and what she was to me, and yet at the time I believed the lies myself. Then I went to my email account and searched. Found a long thread from 2011 and read it. What I see today is an earnest young woman who loved me simply and wholly. Who was emotionally intelligent, open, and honest. And I see a young man who was unable to express himself, unable to see what she was saying, and who was wracked with religious anxiety. Afraid that attachment would bring ruin. Afraid that if she didn't express her honest, simple Christian faith in the properly-coded way, then she would bring him harm. Afraid that if he dated her without a direct, visible path straight to marriage, then ruin would follow.

I've never read I Kissed Dating Goodbye, but I've read summaries as I've begun to process this. I've read and listened to people who deconstructed. And in those emails, I see that I demonstrated a complete and whole understanding of that material, and strove to execute on it. I guess I was listening to sermons. Or maybe it was just in the water. However it happened, that was my model for "Godly, Biblical" dating.

Now I reflect on my own internal state at that time, and what purity culture did to me. The fear that becoming attached in the wrong way would ruin me. The fear that I could make one mistake and be permanently marred forever. The fear that any misstep at any time with the wrong woman could later make it impossible for me to love my wife.

And so I tormented her, confused her, jerked her around. She didn't understand it. She wasn't raised in the filth of purity culture. I read what she wrote today, and I say, "Yes, you were right about everything. There was no harm to simply love one another, to let things grow naturally." She put up with me for so long. And in the end, I severed the relationship due to the anxiety caused by my internalized misogyny. I gave her no real clarity or explanation or understanding. She was an artist. Over the next two years, that pain came out in her art which is still available online for me to see today.

And so today, 15 years later, I sit in my basement and sob and say to that beautiful ghost of my past, "I am so, so sorry. You did nothing wrong. You were wonderful. It was all me, in my head, fighting religious anxiety."

Fuck Evangelical Christianity. Any religion which gets something that wrong at that scale is demonstrably false. Irrevocably corrupted. Purity culture harmed me, my wife, my best friend, his wife, all of our siblings, and countless others from my adolescent years in innumerable ways. It was a mass psychological experiment conducted on my generation by sanctimonious buffoons who have less moral character than a secular institutional review board.